two river rebellion

[Tyrell]

I'd strike Berelain's name from that list in the next book considering Faile is back haha. Besides, she'll have to go back to Mayene eventually and good riddance when she does.

 

What!? Berelain is the only reason I kept reading three books worth of Perrin following Faile, she's awesome.

[wavemistresstrammell]

*Gasp!* BLASPHEMY!!!! haha

[Perrin 187]

Sorry Mistress I didn't mean to come off as rude its just, I thought the answer to your question; of how could Perrin rule such an area, was pretty obvious.

 

Berelain is okay, but she would be more intersting if she wasn't playing her little game, spreading false horrendous rumors, and intentionally pushing Faile's buttons. In some ways she helps solve alot problems and in other ways just creates more.

[Luckers]

Sorry, I just don't see Perrin even thinking about ruling over more land than he has to or wants to... unless Faile beats him up and makes him that it.

 

I actually see it occuring more out of nessesity. Perrin will get the Broken Crown through Tenobia and Devram dying whilst Tarmon Gai'don is beginning. He will assuming rule out of a sense of duty and it will just flow on from there. By the time things are calm enough that he could let it go (which wouldn't be for years after Tarmon Gai'don) it'd be locked in.

 

And Faile would beat him into doing it. Heh.

[cseresz]

What will Elayne do with the two river rebellion, now that she is queen of Andor?

 

Elayne and Perrin will die in the last book, forces of the dark will destroy the Two Rivers. So, where is the problem?

[wavemistresstrammell]

Sorry Mistress I didn't mean to come off as rude its just, I thought the answer to your question; of how could Perrin rule such an area, was pretty obvious.

 

Berelain is okay, but she would be more intersting if she wasn't playing her little game, spreading false horrendous rumors, and intentionally pushing Faile's buttons. In some ways she helps solve alot problems and in other ways just creates more.

Hey, I might have slacked in school but I did pay attention to some things haha. Plus running off two hours of sleep wasn't helping. I agree about Berelain, that's the biggest problem I have with her is that stupid game. I'd like her to take that game and shove it... I'll be good ^.^

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I just don't see Perrin even thinking about ruling over more land than he has to or wants to... unless Faile beats him up and makes him that it.

 

I actually see it occuring more out of nessesity. Perrin will get the Broken Crown through Tenobia and Devram dying whilst Tarmon Gai'don is beginning. He will assuming rule out of a sense of duty and it will just flow on from there. By the time things are calm enough that he could let it go (which wouldn't be for years after Tarmon Gai'don) it'd be locked in.

 

And Faile would beat him into doing it. Heh.

Agree to disagree? Sounds fair to me ^.^ Watch, the book will come out and I'll be wrong about everything but at least I did my best to come up with ideas haha. My husband is better at this kind of stuff, that jerk will end up being right about everything haha. He always is *sniff*

[NotPropaganda]

Like someone said, Perrin and Elayne are virtually strangers so it won't go smoothly anyway. When Morgase joins Perrin's group in Ghealdan under the disguise of Maighdin she asks him about the flags and his reply sums up the whole Two Rivers's feelings on Andor - they don't feel a part of Andor and they probably never will. Regardless of Elayne's attempts I don't think there's any way she will bring the Two Rivers into Andor and Perrin, however reluctantly, will carve out a new nation in the Two Rivers.

 

Regarding the Broken Crown, why is everyone convinved Tenobia and Davram are going to die? Did I miss a prophecy or something? If I did, Luckers's evaluation of events makes the most sense, that Perrin takes the Crown as a matter of duty and necessity and by the time the battle is done he will not be able to give it up.

[wavemistresstrammell]

Regarding the Broken Crown, why is everyone convinved Tenobia and Davram are going to die? Did I miss a prophecy or something? If I did, Luckers's evaluation of events makes the most sense, that Perrin takes the Crown as a matter of duty and necessity and by the time the battle is done he will not be able to give it up.

I think people assume he's going to get the Broken Crown in not to long because Min had a viewing of it in tEoTW. Which I'm like-minded as well and agree that they will. I never said he wasn't going to become the king of Saldaea, only that I disagree that he'll end up controlling so much land later on.

[NotPropaganda]

Oh I see, I didn't remember Min's viewing.

[wavemistresstrammell]

I got lucky and remembered it haha, as you can see I'm completely clueless about everything else haha... just read some of the other threads I've posted in. Well, at least there's someone for everyone to pick on haha.

[Mr Ares]

i agree w/ Luckers ;D and Thorum  ;)

Funnily enough, I don't. While the Two Rivers might not mean much to Elayne, given it has had de facto independence for a long time, there is something in Western Andor that she would want to keep hold of - the mines in the Mountains of Mist. They are important to Andor economically. Previously, a choice was made to keep a hold of those mines at the expense of the TR. Andor still has control of the mines themselves, and would want to continue being able to take advantage of them. Perrin taking Western Andor would either mean he takes the mines, or he just cuts the supply lines to them. She can't get the ore from the mines, not without passing through Perrin's land (which he just stole from her). So there is good reason for Caemlyn to be resistant to this. And Elayne is currently in a position to consolidate her hold on Andor, while Perrin is away from Saldaea, from the Two Rivers, and does not have a significant presence in NW Andor at the moment - territory that could be considered de facto neutral, which Elayne would like to make into part of Andor in fact as well as name. No, if Perrin tries to take that land, it will not end well. That's an act of war, right there. Any control he gains is likely to be short term, not part of the creation of his empire. If he even seized it in the first place, that is, as opposed to Elayne taking control.

 

I'm more interested in will Lan be able to carve out a kingdom in the instance that he in fact survives Tarmon Gaidon and the blight recedes from Malkier, and how Mayenne will do with Galad presumably ruling alongside Berelain (which would make for a very interesting future for the whitecloaks)if Min's vision actually means them marrying and not just her falling for him with a love affair.

I don't see either Malkier Reborn or Galad and Berelain as being likely outcomes, to be honest.

[Luckers]

Regarding the Broken Crown, why is everyone convinved Tenobia and Davram are going to die? Did I miss a prophecy or something? If I did, Luckers's evaluation of events makes the most sense, that Perrin takes the Crown as a matter of duty and necessity and by the time the battle is done he will not be able to give it up.

I think people assume he's going to get the Broken Crown in not to long because Min had a viewing of it in tEoTW. Which I'm like-minded as well and agree that they will. I never said he wasn't going to become the king of Saldaea, only that I disagree that he'll end up controlling so much land later on.

 

In addition to that Min has also recently had dark visions about Davram.

 

Funnily enough, I don't. While the Two Rivers might not mean much to Elayne, given it has had de facto independence for a long time, there is something in Western Andor that she would want to keep hold of - the mines in the Mountains of Mist. They are important to Andor economically. Previously, a choice was made to keep a hold of those mines at the expense of the TR. Andor still has control of the mines themselves, and would want to continue being able to take advantage of them. Perrin taking Western Andor would either mean he takes the mines, or he just cuts the supply lines to them. She can't get the ore from the mines, not without passing through Perrin's land (which he just stole from her). So there is good reason for Caemlyn to be resistant to this. And Elayne is currently in a position to consolidate her hold on Andor, while Perrin is away from Saldaea, from the Two Rivers, and does not have a significant presence in NW Andor at the moment - territory that could be considered de facto neutral, which Elayne would like to make into part of Andor in fact as well as name. No, if Perrin tries to take that land, it will not end well. That's an act of war, right there. Any control he gains is likely to be short term, not part of the creation of his empire. If he even seized it in the first place, that is, as opposed to Elayne taking control.

 

I never said she was going to like it--even lacking the practical realities of the mines in the mountains of mist Elayne's character would never willingly put up with this. I'm saying that due to the current situation she won't have the time to deal with perrin, and that by the time she does he will be too secure and too powerful for her to oppose.

[Thorum]

Perrin is (at least in the Two Rivers) already too powerful for her to oppose.

 

And Elayne will have her hands full in Cairhien. If Perrin helps her out there a bit, it could easily evolve into a win-win situation.

[ROB_88]

i do agree with you that Perrin will not be able to take the mines without risking all out war, but there's one thing i awlays wondered.

 

Previously, a choice was made to keep a hold of those mines at the expense of the TR.

 

why does one automatically exclude the other?

[mb]

Perrin is (at least in the Two Rivers) already too powerful for her to oppose.

I imagine Perrin would willingly give up Lordship of Two Rivers once he realizes he is heir to Saldaea through Faile.

 

And Elayne will have her hands full in Cairhien. If Perrin helps her out there a bit, it could easily evolve into a win-win situation.

Like Andor, I think Elayne would want Cairhien (nation) to be her own effort; though I imagine it would not require much effort since most of the important people of Cairhien seem to already accept Elayne for the throne.  Most time Elayne would spend in Cairhien might be changing laws, and that would not take much time.

I think there would be time enough to deal with Two Rivers (and probably other Andor situations).

 

[Luckers]

I think with Tarmon Gai'don coming there is going to be more for her to do than simply change laws--their is a famine coming for one thing, with everything going to hell in a handbasket there will be people looking to take advantage. Bandits and the like.

 

It will be ten years before she could even think of gathering the forces she'd need to deal with Perrin.

[Thorum]

Perrin is (at least in the Two Rivers) already too powerful for her to oppose.

I imagine Perrin would willingly give up Lordship of Two Rivers once he realizes he is heir to Saldaea through Faile.

 

Yes. But the Two Rivers people wouldn't. Nor would Faile.

 

I think with Tarmon Gai'don coming there is going to be more for her to do than simply change laws--their is a famine coming for one thing, with everything going to hell in a handbasket there will be people looking to take advantage. Bandits and the like.

 

It will be ten years before she could even think of gathering the forces she'd need to deal with Perrin.

 

And that still leaves the current Civil War ;D

[Mr Ares]

I never said she was going to like it--even lacking the practical realities of the mines in the mountains of mist Elayne's character would never willingly put up with this. I'm saying that due to the current situation she won't have the time to deal with perrin, and that by the time she does he will be too secure and too powerful for her to oppose.

Perrin has no reason to seize control of parts of Andor, still less to keep hold when the rightful ruler demands them back, especially at the risk of war. And Elayne has good reason, beyond simple pride, to push for a war. And don't forget, currently she is queen, while Perrin is not yet king of Saldaea, and Ghealdan is in quite a state following the Prophet's depredations. Assuming, as well, that he keeps hold of Ghealdan.

 

Perrin is (at least in the Two Rivers) already too powerful for her to oppose.

But not in the rest of Andor. He would have to seize control of areas where "Lord Perrin" is just as much a stranger as "Queen Elayne", maintain his control in the face of Elayne trying to regain it, not just look after Andoran territory but annex it to his new empire, and be prepared to fight a war to keep hold of it, not to mention having to actually win any such war that breaks out. That's quite a lot of hoops to jump through in order to connect Ghealdan to Saldaea, and very little as to why anyone involved would actually want such an outcome.

 

And Elayne will have her hands full in Cairhien.

Assuming she wants it. She might be satisfied with a reunified Andor, one where her rule covers the whole of the territory the maps say it has. Her taking over Cairhien is Rand's plan, not hers.

 

Previously, a choice was made to keep a hold of those mines at the expense of the TR.

why does one automatically exclude the other?

Lack of resources. A few countries have trouble keeping hold of their outlying regions, due to the population decline. They didn't have to manpower to effectively administrate both the TR, with its tabac, and the mines, with their ores. So they took the latter. And have good reason to fight to regain them if Emperor Perrin tried to take them away.

 

I think with Tarmon Gai'don coming there is going to be more for her to do than simply change laws--their is a famine coming for one thing, with everything going to hell in a handbasket there will be people looking to take advantage. Bandits and the like.

And the same will be true in Saldaea and Ghealdan, the latter having already been hit hard by the Prophet. Cairhien, being currently stable and not a Borderland nation - thus not on the front line - should be better placed to whether Tarmon Gai'don. So why should Perrin be better placed to rebuild Ghealdan, maintain order in Saldaea, and extend his empire through western Andor, than Elayne is to simply regain control of her country? With Cairhien's backing, and perhaps even the WT's (she is AS, after all, the Amyrlin could easily decide to support her in a conflict. And if Rand is still around, he is unlikely to side against his wife).

 

It will be ten years before she could even think of gathering the forces she'd need to deal with Perrin.

Then she will need to be patient. People have waited longer for wars.

 

And that still leaves the current Civil War ;D

And Ghealdan's power vacuum, in the absence of Prophet and Queen.

[Thorum]

And that still leaves the current Civil War ;D

And Ghealdan's power vacuum, in the absence of Prophet and Queen.

 

I was discussing the situation in Cairhien, not in Ghealdan. The mistake was that the Civil War is 'over', but the country still is terribly unstable (Shaido, anyone?).

 

@MrAres, a question. If I read your answer correctly, you believe Perrin will reign a country which is now in two parts? One Ghealdan/Two Rivers; the other Saldaea?

 

I don't believe this is possible in the Randland state of technology. Also, don't forget the Blight should be gone after Tarmon Gaidon (or at least a lot calmer), so Perrin will have a larger army than Elayne.

Also, the connections doesn't necessarily have to include Baerlon. It could also include part of Almoth Plain (a huge lake, according to this map. Especially given the amount of AP refugees currently in the Two Rivers this idea may not be as looney as it appears on first sight. Still madly crazy, though  ;D

[Luckers]

Perrin has no reason to seize control of parts of Andor, still less to keep hold when the rightful ruler demands them back, especially at the risk of war. And Elayne has good reason, beyond simple pride, to push for a war. And don't forget, currently she is queen, while Perrin is not yet king of Saldaea, and Ghealdan is in quite a state following the Prophet's depredations. Assuming, as well, that he keeps hold of Ghealdan.

 

He's already siezed parts of Andor--not intentionally, but because they needed him and Andor wasn't doing anything about it. The same continues. Elayne's concerns ignore the far west, the only reason she'd pay it attention is the "rebellion".  That is Perrin's reason. He has a strong sense of duty and he will follow through on it.

 

That being said the issue of him siezing part of Andor to my mind will be incidental. He will not actively do so, he'll just do what he must and that part of Andor will end up under his control. And by the time Elayne can do anything about it it will be too late.

 

But not in the rest of Andor. He would have to seize control of areas where "Lord Perrin" is just as much a stranger as "Queen Elayne", maintain his control in the face of Elayne trying to regain it, not just look after Andoran territory but annex it to his new empire, and be prepared to fight a war to keep hold of it, not to mention having to actually win any such war that breaks out. That's quite a lot of hoops to jump through in order to connect Ghealdan to Saldaea, and very little as to why anyone involved would actually want such an outcome.

 

Actually he probably won't have to "seize" anything. The placement of the borderlanders and the upcoming issues means that his army will be in place to face Tarmon Gai'don from that part of Andor. He will simply do what he must, and as a result end up in charge of Andoran forces from the area. Time and situational nessecity will follow from there.

 

No one wants such an outcome. Don't mean it won't happen, or that its unlikely.

 

 

Assuming she wants it. She might be satisfied with a reunified Andor, one where her rule covers the whole of the territory the maps say it has. Her taking over Cairhien is Rand's plan, not hers.

 

The situation in the west won't escalate as far as she percieves--it's not like Perrin's a conquerer, he won't be out subdueing Andoran cities. He'll take charge when he thinks he must and that will lead to his control of the area, but it won't be such that she'll feel the need to divert her attention anytime soon. By the time she will... sorry, too late.

 

And the same will be true in Saldaea and Ghealdan, the latter having already been hit hard by the Prophet. Cairhien, being currently stable and not a Borderland nation - thus not on the front line - should be better placed to whether Tarmon Gai'don. So why should Perrin be better placed to rebuild Ghealdan, maintain order in Saldaea, and extend his empire through western Andor, than Elayne is to simply regain control of her country? With Cairhien's backing, and perhaps even the WT's (she is AS, after all, the Amyrlin could easily decide to support her in a conflict. And if Rand is still around, he is unlikely to side against his wife).

 

He won't be better place, he'll simply be placed. He'll have the same issues as Elayne, if not more. And like Elayne he won't be able to ignore them in order to make war.

 

Quote

It will be ten years before she could even think of gathering the forces she'd need to deal with Perrin.

 

Then she will need to be patient. People have waited longer for wars.

 

Yes, but by the time she's secure enough for this, he'll be too.

 

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

I don't know about you guys, but if I were a King and there was someone anywhere in my kingdom starting a rebellion, even a small rebellion that isn't even really a rebellion (like the Two Rivers) I would stomp it out quickly. Elayne is fairly bright, as far as snobby nobles go, and I can see Morgase teaching her something about what to do in case of rebellion (obviously before Elayne was sent to the Tower).

[Muad Cheade]

Perrin would not be King of Saldea. He'd be Consort to the Queen (Faile). She would be the ruler of Saldea not Perrin.

 

As for the Mountains of Mist and how Elayne would feel towards "rebellion," we don't know. There are different ways that could happen. For example, she could give him control of the area in exchange for a percentage of the mined ores or she could attempt to stomp it out.

 

We don't know. We don't even know if Perrin and Faile will survive Tarmon Gai'don. What we do know is Tarmon Gai'don is coming fast and Perrin and Elayne are more focused on that than becoming disputing boundary rights.

 

However, weren't there about 100,000 gaishan that were with the Shaido? They could be the building blocks of a nation.

[Phariah]

if this all works out i think there would be one deciding factor in Perrin's favor.... Morgase ;)

she has seen him do what he must for his people, she has seen who Faile is while they were Gaishan, she know both of them well and i would guess she would support them saying something like" we left them to fend for themselves. we were not good rulers to them ,and this young man saved them and has helped them grow. this is his land daughter he is a just man as is his lady, let them tend it" ::) 8)

 

[Luckers]

Perrin would not be King of Saldea. He'd be Consort to the Queen (Faile). She would be the ruler of Saldea not Perrin.

 

Not so. In the borderlands the spouse becomes co-ruler. Besides Min directly sees the Broken Crown in Perrin's future.

[Thorum]

Where is that?