I hate Rand al thor

[Durinax]

lol just awesome Phariah

[OptimusPrime]

So let me get this straight. You guys think the ends justify the means? Oh i am rand al thor. The saviour of the world. You better do as i say or i will blow your brains out. Oh i do this to protect the world you live in. Damn.

 

I would not even have a problem with rand roughshodding over dumb ass people like weiramon for example. But rand al thor has passed a zone which frankly turns him to a total unfeeling tool.

 

 

No. People are sayig he is a product of his circumstances. Reading comprehension is a good thing. If you think about general human nature then you can begin to understand why he is like he is. Like I said earlier, the vast majority of people would simply break under the immense amount of stress.

 

 

Not to mention the way Lews Therin seems to be seeping into him as time goes on. Rand is barely Rand anymore.

[Durinax]

Insert Quote

Quote from: killdawabbit on Today at 07:34:04 AM

Quote from: sheikh chilli on Today at 07:24:48 AM

So let me get this straight. You guys think the ends justify the means? Oh i am rand al thor. The saviour of the world. You better do as i say or i will blow your brains out. Oh i do this to protect the world you live in. Damn.

 

I would not even have a problem with rand roughshodding over dumb ass people like weiramon for example. But rand al thor has passed a zone which frankly turns him to a total unfeeling tool.

 

 

 

No. People are sayig he is a product of his circumstances. Reading comprehension is a good thing. If you think about general human nature then you can begin to understand why he is like he is. Like I said earlier, the vast majority of people would simply break under the immense amount of stress.

 

 

 

Not to mention the way Lews Therin seems to be seeping into him as time goes on. Rand is barely Rand anymore.

 

plus in the times when the series is in (feudal society) it is also understanding that he does not care as much as we do now, since back then it was self preservation (as well as those close to you if possible) unlike now, when people are expected to be mindful and care about each others well being

[sheikh chilli]

 

 

hey Perrin hey Loial whats up let have some cookies and milk while we sit here bsing around, dont worry that the shadow is building up or we need to organize, don't worry that we will have trollocs streaming forth from every way gate into the heartlands , don't worry that the shadow is bad enough but i have these nobles that would kill me before TG just for some more power... nah have a chocolate chip one its good

 

 

a better response would be,

 

hey welcome back loial! I am so glad to see you. I missed you. you look tired. here have a rest. maidens bring something for the ogier. loail you look terrible. sit man. tell me what happened. ' story ends'

 

well thank the light you are okay. by the way Loial i need your help with something. but seeing as you look tired i would like to take you to a stedding to get refreshed. i will send an ashaman with you as protection. once you are refreshed and ready i will let you on the plans. 

 

hey perrin i need you too. you are one of my closest friends. i value your friendship and advice. i need you if i am to stand a chance. But first the ogier needs his strength. You too perrin. It looks like you have knackered yourlf from traveling all the way from emonds field

 

 

But no he needs to treat his friends as if they were merely objects. To be used and thrown away. Like i said such a friend deserves an axe to the head. I don't know about you guys but robert jordan has turned rand al thor to really messed up character. A character with no empathy or sense of compassion. I don't know why alot of people are so enamoured with this tool. Perhaps they like twisted anti heroes. Not me. If he dies at the last battle i say good riddance. One of the worst 'heroes' saviours or whatever you like to call them ever seen in a fantasy book.

 

Okay i must calm down. This is fictitious character we are talking about :P

[draconian]

that kind of a person is not a saviour. he's a weakling with a pathetic character. So people hate and despise you. Perhaps you should try and set a good example and change people's opinions of you. Just like how egwene seems to be doing in the tower.

 

Oh by the way perrin, and the ogier are some of his closest friends and yet to rand they are nothing but pieces of meat. rand is no saviour. At least to me. He can't even mourn for moraine without forcing himself to do so. what a wuss!

i was waiting for this...i dislike egwene

egwene uses ppl all the time and is an idoit to boot

atm her only option is to change ppl by talking and example shes a prisoner

before that she had an army sieging the white tower and was using and manipulating her own ppl

shes a post AoL aes sedai a manipulator of all not a servant of all

 

rand can either mourn the dead or take care of living

we saw that mourning the dead nearly cost him his life in tear when he tried to resurrect a child

courage is when u want to break down cry and give up u dont not till the fight is done and u made there deaths count

rand intends to use himself as a sacrifice for living if he has to use ppl to get to that point so be it

he uses himself far harder then he uses any1 else

[Vambram]

rand can either mourn the dead or take care of living

we saw that mourning the dead nearly cost him his life in tear when he tried to resurrect a child

courage is when u want to break down cry and give up u dont not till the fight is done and u made there deaths count

rand intends to use himself as a sacrifice for living if he has to use ppl to get to that point so be it

he uses himself far harder then he uses any1 else.

 

QFT.

[funsize]

So what if he uses his friends. he is a product of his circumstances. rand can't do anything else and his circumstances will only change for the worst. cant blame him for that.

 

I hope you see what I did there.

 

Also, when you read the books, do you actually read the books, or just see what you want?

 

Yes, Rand was berating himeslf for not feeling anything for Moiraine's death - but he was unaware that he was crying, proof that he was mourning. He was just confused about his feelings.

 

So people hate and despise you.

 

Yeah, you can really just shrug off the fact that people who NEED you to save them hate you for what you are, and nothing you can do will change it. It's really easy to shrug off the fact that people have made attempts on your life because of what you are.

[Yiceman]

There's no way you can read his POVs and say he feels no empathy and compassion. Remember a couple of starving boys in Tear at all?

 

He spends just about all of his waking hours fretting and worrying about how to win the last battle, how to keep everything he has from falling apart, and a hundred other problems.

 

So you have to forget him for thinking of who he can use to win.

 

More importantly, and read carefully now, is that it makes a more compelling story.

 

The character you describe, who invites his friends to sit down for a warm cup of coco and talk of simpler times is a pretty dumb hero. Someone who goes through everything Rand's been through, but still considers everyone's feelings over his responsibility is a ridiculous and unbelievable character.

 

Rand's increasing hardness is all serving a greater purpose in the story. We haven't seen the end yet, but it exists for a reason. It's creating a bigger sense of urgency, and portraying just how heavy a toll all of this is taking on Rand.

 

Sure, if Rand were more friendly he would be easier to identify with, but it wouldn't be better. The people who matter understand his situation and don't hold any animosity towards him. Everyone else is in it for themselves. Do you think a person like Colavaere would have been less likely to plot against Rand if he had been nicer to her? Really? No, everyone like her would only be more encouraged to betray him if they didn't fear him.

 

Rand recognizes this, and uses it, because he has to. It disgusts him (see him turning Selande away and inviting Colavaere to dinner), but he needs to do it to win.

 

Not to mention the narrative aspect of it. I must emphasis again...a cheeky, happy-go-lucky Rand at this point would be pretty darn stupid.

[wavemistresstrammell]

I can see how reading about Rand can be a bit... irritating, but it's like everyone has pretty much said, he's a product of the things that have happened to him and to people around him. I don't know whether to feel sympathy or slap him sometimes(if I could ha), but sympathy normally wins.

 

 

i was waiting for this...i dislike egwene

egwene uses ppl all the time and is an idoit to boot

atm her only option is to change ppl by talking and example shes a prisoner

before that she had an army sieging the white tower and was using and manipulating her own ppl

shes a post AoL aes sedai a manipulator of all not a servant of all

 

I totally agree with you; while Egwene has progressed quiet a bit since the beginning of the series, in some ways she really needs to be put in her place still. But at the same time everyone justifies Rand for using and manipulating people solely based on who he is. How is Egwene really any different? She is the Amyrlin now after all. So while I don't always agree with the actions she takes, change that, more like almost everything she does, I still see where she has to take these actions to make sure she isn't over run by the other Aes Sedai.

[Mr Ares]

So let me get this straight. You guys think the ends justify the means? Oh i am rand al thor. The saviour of the world. You better do as i say or i will blow your brains out. Oh i do this to protect the world you live in. Damn.

Rand loses, the world loses.

 

hawking was awesome. say what you want but he's 10 times the leader rand al thor will ever be.

You base that on what? We know only a little of him, and one of the themes of the series is about information becoming distorted. Those historical sources might not be 100% reliable.

So what if he hated aes sedai. he was manipulated by ishy. artur could not channel and ishy was the dark one's general. cant blame him for that.

 

rand al thor acts like total unfeeling tool and he does not have the excuse of someone manipulating him

No, he has the excuse of being under a lot of pressure, being a kid, and being insane, being in constant pain, etc., etc.

 

that kind of a person is not a saviour.

What makes someone a saviour? Being a nice guy? No. Saving the world. That is Rand's job, not making the world love him.

he's a weakling with a pathetic character.

No, he isn't. Not even close.

So people hate and despise you. Perhaps you should try and set a good example and change people's opinions of you.

Perhaps not, as that is not necessary for his job, possibly counter-productive, time consuming, and pointless. He has no reason to do it. Nothing to gain, everything to lose.

He can't even mourn for moraine without forcing himself to do so. what a wuss!

How does that equate to being a wuss?

 

Rand does not get points for being a nice guy. He is supposed to save the world. If he can do that while making lots of friends, fine, but that's not an option. A lot of people are out to get him. Would you rather the world died? Or Rand was a bit of a tosser?

[draconian]

I totally agree with you; while Egwene has progressed quiet a bit since the beginning of the series, in some ways she really needs to be put in her place still. But at the same time everyone justifies Rand for using and manipulating people solely based on who he is. How is Egwene really any different? She is the Amyrlin now after all. So while I don't always agree with the actions she takes, change that, more like almost everything she does, I still see where she has to take these actions to make sure she isn't over run by the other Aes Sedai.

egwene chose tobe amyrlin as appose to beingh born into a role

she chose tobe aes sedai knowning who and what they r

she still think of rand as a boy as apposed rand who thinks of  her as aes sedai

she has alrdy taken on the aes sedai world POV

besides i think she handled the white tower siege badly thats were i consider her an idiot unless she trying to force prophecy which is dangerous

i really dont like that egwene lets others believe false rumors about rand b/c its to her advantage

shes playing a short game when she nds to play a long game

i liked moiraine's last advice to egwene which she never understond imo

[EramofAmandous]

I just think that if you hate a character that bad you need help. Go out in the real world and find some real people to hate, trust me there are plenty. Like for example I hate Anne Coulter, Bill O' Riley, and Tom Cruise.

[Majsju]

egwene chose tobe amyrlin as appose to beingh born into a role

She did not exactly have a choice. As an Accepted, she was bound by Tower law, and by that law, it is not possible to refuse be chosen Amyrlin.

 

she chose tobe aes sedai knowning who and what they r

Her knowledge of what Aes Sedai are were at the time solely based on her impression of Moiraine. And even if she had disliked moiraine, what else could she have done? Run away to become a wilder, hoping that she can figure out channeling well enough to not kill herself.

 

she still think of rand as a boy as apposed rand who thinks of  her as aes sedai

Not really.

 

she has alrdy taken on the aes sedai world POV

Rather a combination of that, and what she learned among the Wise Ones.

 

besides i think she handled the white tower siege badly thats were i consider her an idiot unless she trying to force prophecy which is dangerous

And what should she have done instead, ordered an all out assault, putting Aes Sedai against Aes Sedai, ensuring that the split would take generations to heal?

 

i really dont like that egwene lets others believe false rumors about rand b/c its to her advantage

Ever considered that strengthening her position benefits Rand? We know quite well what Elaida sees as the best way to deal with Rand, and that is a view you can be certain is shared by a lot of the older Aes Sedai. That is the view that would dominate if Egwene had failed to make the most of her situation.

 

shes playing a short game when she nds to play a long game

Quite the contrary.

 

i liked moiraine's last advice to egwene which she never understond imo

She acts very much in accordance with that advice.

[sheikh chilli]

I just think that if you hate a character that bad you need help. Go out in the real world and find some real people to hate, trust me there are plenty. Like for example I hate Anne Coulter, Bill O' Riley, and Tom Cruise.

 

ever heard of the term hyperbole?

[sheikh chilli]

Viceman,

 

rand has no empathy or no compassion anymore. He uses his own friends as if they are doormats. He thinks anyone who dies for him is just collateral damage.

 

 

Ares,

 

your whole gist seems to be he's the dragon reborn and therefore he has carte blanche to act and do whatever he likes. Having rand as a saviour is like having a wolf guarding the sheep. 

[OptimusPrime]

This is funny. Look at this.

 

I don't hate Rand, but each new book I'm having a harder time identifying myself with him, because of his madness, his bad temper, his inability to hurt women or to chose between women.

 

And then look at this.

 

Viceman,

 

He thinks anyone who dies for him is just collateral damage.

 

 

We have sheikh chilli sat on Rands left shoulder, saying "Don't you care? Every woman who dies within ten miles of you can be put down to your Ta'veren effect." And then we have fikkie77 sat on his right shoulder, saying "Oh my God just kill a woman already."

[wite wo1f]

I am not going to comment on why you should or should not hate Rand. That is a personal choice, and even though I think your reasons for doing so are stupid I won't argue with you. With that said I think you have to admit that Rand is an interesting character, and that makes the books interesting. He has his own inner problems to deal with and he feels that he has to use his friends. He realizes he should not but does not let that stop him.

 

I think that all of these factors cause him to be more interesting than many other characters. He is a person and therefore makes mistakes including some regarding his attitude towards others. In my opinion this is much better than a hero that is kind and never does anything that could cause his friends injury. Therefore I think that love him or hate him, Rand Al'Thor is a well done character. He is the reason that I am continually rereading this books and I would not be surprised if the same was true for you.

[draconian]

 

 

besides i think she handled the white tower siege badly thats were i consider her an idiot unless she trying to force prophecy which is dangerous

And what should she have done instead, ordered an all out assault, putting Aes Sedai against Aes Sedai, ensuring that the split would take generations to heal?

i cant say ur wrong on all ur points but as ill check back after i finish checking the books

full assault no but do as rand or mat would do a raid :)

send in a grp of strong aes sedai via gateways to capture elaida  and then bring her to trial and still her w/o her arround diplomacy may win out

travel in skim out or sneak in annd skim out

is starving a city by blocking the docks a better way than a full assault? hard to say but a raid to take out spefic aes sedai would not cost either side

[EramofAmandous]

I just think that if you hate a character that bad you need help. Go out in the real world and find some real people to hate, trust me there are plenty. Like for example I hate Anne Coulter, Bill O' Riley, and Tom Cruise.

 

ever heard of the term hyperbole?

 

So are you saying that you really don't hate Rand, that you are just using intentional exaggeration, to cause an argument?

[EramofAmandous]

 

 

besides i think she handled the white tower siege badly thats were i consider her an idiot unless she trying to force prophecy which is dangerous

And what should she have done instead, ordered an all out assault, putting Aes Sedai against Aes Sedai, ensuring that the split would take generations to heal?

i cant say ur wrong on all ur points but as ill check back after i finish checking the books

full assault no but do as rand or mat would do a raid :)

send in a grp of strong aes sedai via gateways to capture elaida  and then bring her to trial and still her w/o her around diplomacy may win out

travel in skim out or sneak in annd skim out

is starving a city by blocking the docks a better way than a full assault? hard to say but a raid to take out spefic aes sedai would not cost either side

 

I always thought that they should have just marched on into the White Tower with all the new novices and their army and just started doing their thing, holding meetings of the hall and such. It was said that there had been 2 rival Halls in the Tower before so....

[Arath Faringal]

send in a grp of strong aes sedai via gateways to capture elaida  and then bring her to trial and still her w/o her arround diplomacy may win out

travel in skim out or sneak in annd skim out

 

The problem there is that you risk teaching the other side Travelling, which can then be used just as effectively against you.

 

Not that anyone would really be eager to rescue Elaida nowadays... but there's always the possibility.

[Majsju]

 

 

besides i think she handled the white tower siege badly thats were i consider her an idiot unless she trying to force prophecy which is dangerous

And what should she have done instead, ordered an all out assault, putting Aes Sedai against Aes Sedai, ensuring that the split would take generations to heal?

i cant say ur wrong on all ur points but as ill check back after i finish checking the books

full assault no but do as rand or mat would do a raid :)

send in a grp of strong aes sedai via gateways to capture elaida  and then bring her to trial and still her w/o her arround diplomacy may win out

travel in skim out or sneak in annd skim out

is starving a city by blocking the docks a better way than a full assault? hard to say but a raid to take out spefic aes sedai would not cost either side

 

Neither Rand nor Mat have been in this situation, so it is quite useless to speculate what they would do.

 

Attempting a raid would require realtime intel about Elaidas position, and how many others that might be around here. Since that is close to impossible, the best intel the rebels could get would be delayed long enough for Elaida to have moved, or for her beign surrounded by several Aes Sedai. Even with the element of surprise, there are no guarantees that such a strike would be successful, without casualties on any side. Because as soon as the first Aes Sedai dies, uniting the Tower becomes a great deal more difficult.

 

And even a completely successful capture of Elaida, without a single casualty, would be a guarantee for the conflict to be solved.

[EramofAmandous]

I think Egwene is doing a fine job. She has taken the "battle" into the heart of the Tower and is showing, by her actions what Aes Sedai really is.

[draconian]

Neither Rand nor Mat have been in this situation, so it is quite useless to speculate what they would do.

 

Attempting a raid would require realtime intel about Elaidas position, and how many others that might be around here. Since that is close to impossible, the best intel the rebels could get would be delayed long enough for Elaida to have moved, or for her beign surrounded by several Aes Sedai. Even with the element of surprise, there are no guarantees that such a strike would be successful, without casualties on any side. Because as soon as the first Aes Sedai dies, uniting the Tower becomes a great deal more difficult.

 

And even a completely successful capture of Elaida, without a single casualty, would be a guarantee for the conflict to be solved.

 

ofc rand and mat have been...i wasnt speculating lol

raid to defeat an enemy w/o siege or assault

rand even used the word "raid"

reread last few chapter book 5  for a classic lightning raid to break an opponent by removing there leader and win a war w/o a siege or assault

here is how i would perscute a egwene's war vs eliada

1- gather as much info as possible by dreamwalking

2- send in scouts to tar valon via traveling and id were eliada sleep via scouting using moghedien/forsaken bag of tricks*

3- strike at night eliada sleeps in 1 place no realtime info nded at all and if u want a day time raid a scout could a open small gateway and send a note to an attack team delay would be a few seconds

4- weaving of saidar wont be noticed as odd in the white tower(see siuan capture scene) so its a standard shield and grab and skim out

5- declare the war vs eliada over

*using inverted weaves to disguise faces masking etc basicly and pretend to be a servant etc(we know its possible multiple forsaken have infiltrated the white tower repeatedly)

pls point out any weak point and ill refine it

[The Desert Pea]

Your problem with Rand is that he isn't your usual type of savior. You don't like the fact that we can't connect to Rand on a personal level outside of the first couple books because he's shut off his human emotions. The problem with this, though, is that that's the way his character is supposed to be. You're not supposed to connect with Rand's character outside of a few specific POVs because he's supposed to be a hard, emotionless figure that everyone needs to obey.

 

Now normally, this would make for a very unlikeable character. However, we've watched Rand become the person he is from the innocent sheepherder he started off as. Let's see, what has Rand gone through since the beginning of the series?

-A mandatory cross continental trip to the Blight

-Confrontation with numerous Forsaken

-The death of many close friends

-Two branded palms

-A non healing stab wound from Ishy

-Rhuidean

-Fain's dagger non healing wound

-Kidnapped and stuffed into a box

-Sword hand blasted off

 

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I haven't even mentioned the fact that he was thrust into the position of messiah without any say in the matter, had to deal with a maddening power, a voice in his head, and manipulative nobles who don't seem to realize that they need him if they want to have any chance of survival.

 

The fact of the matter is that to deal with all of this (and so, so much more) Rand needed to seal away his emotions. He needed to "become as cold as winter's heart itself" to have any chance of just making it to the Last Battle, not to mention winning it. Prophecy and 3000 years of a world scared senseless by men who can channel is not a good thing when you show up and are destined to break the world once again. Rand is trying to save a world that he probably won't even be around to enjoy. He's probably going to die and be hated for saving reality. Does this sound like someone who can afford to be kind and courteous to everyone? The answer is "no." Rand is completely justified in his actions, whether you like it or not.