I hate Rand al thor

[sheikh chilli]

I am not going to comment on why you should or should not hate Rand. That is a personal choice, and even though I think your reasons for doing so are stupid I won't argue with you. With that said I think you have to admit that Rand is an interesting character, and that makes the books interesting. He has his own inner problems to deal with and he feels that he has to use his friends. He realizes he should not but does not let that stop him.

 

I think that all of these factors cause him to be more interesting than many other characters. He is a person and therefore makes mistakes including some regarding his attitude towards others. In my opinion this is much better than a hero that is kind and never does anything that could cause his friends injury. Therefore I think that love him or hate him, Rand Al'Thor is a well done character. He is the reason that I am continually rereading this books and I would not be surprised if the same was true for you.

The only interesting characters left for me are padan fain, logain and elyas machera. I would love to see where these guys end up. Rand can burn in shayol ghul for all i care. Go and use your choedan kal and die already!

[Vambram]

Rand is completely justified in his actions, whether you like it or not.  

 

Amen, and again I say Amen. Well done, and excellently written, The Desert Pea. I completely agree with your post.

 

[sheikh chilli]

I just think that if you hate a character that bad you need help. Go out in the real world and find some real people to hate, trust me there are plenty. Like for example I hate Anne Coulter, Bill O' Riley, and Tom Cruise.

 

ever heard of the term hyperbole?

 

So are you saying that you really don't hate Rand, that you are just using intentional exaggeration, to cause an argument?

 

i don't hate rand as in pure unbridled hatred since he's just a fantasy character. His character defintely sucks. I just used the word hate coz it was more eye catching :P ;)

[Vambram]

The only interesting characters left for me are padan fain, logain and elyas machera. I would love to see where these guys end up. Rand can burn in shayol ghul for all i care. Go and use your choedan kal and die already!

 

Since the only interesting characters left for you, shiekh chilli are those three relatively minor characters Why are you even still reading this series? If I felt like you did, I would have dropped WOT long ago, and never read any of it ever again.

[sheikh chilli]

vam,

 

it's not a question of minor characters or major characters. Everyone here has their faves. And when they appear on a chapter you read such chapters more carefully and with more eagerness. So yes i will read rand's POV obviously but not with the same eagerness and excitment i would read as say padain fain.

 

I find him, logain and elyas as more interesting characters than the rest. Sure they may not have the same air time as rand al thor but it does not matter to me really

[Vambram]

Actually, in a series and story that is Character driven; it really is a question of major and minor characters. Clearly, in the telling of this epic fantasy story, some characters are FAR more important than others. If a reader does not like those characters, those heroes and heroines, then I really do not understand how the reader can still enjoy the story.

[The Desert Pea]

Also, I'd like to further add that his mentor, Moiraine, "died" at what could only be the worst time possible. He recently became the ruler of the center of manipulative politics, and at the time Rand wasn't the best at the Game of Houses. Things were a lot more difficult than they had to be because of Moiraine's absence. He eventually became a rather brilliant, harsh (which was required) ruler through learning experience, but with Moiraine there his progress would have been much, much faster. On top of this, Rand feels responsible for her "death" because he couldn't attack Lanfear. This starts his list, which is one of the direct causes for his hardened soul.

 

And further more, do you think Rand likes the way he is? It's rather obvious from his POVs that he absolutely despises himself. Often times we find Rand reminiscing about Edmonds Field, and being a shepherd again. He wants to be able to hide from the world and live out his days in peace, but he knows that he has a duty to complete. The man's in pain 24/7. He's bonded to the three women he loves more than anything else in the world while knowing that when he dies it'll hurt them more than anything else ever could, but he can't say no to them when they ask him to be their Warder. The seals of the Dark One's prison are weakening, ready to shatter at any second. And despite all of this he has managed to press onward to save a world that despises him almost as much as the Dark One. This can't be stressed enough. The world hates Rand al'Thor, their only savior. Someone who is easily susceptible to something as petty as human emotions could not have gotten this far. In this case, the end absolutely justifies the means. Rand wants to die, he wants this to end, but instead of taking the easy way out he's sticking it through to the end. He knows that the world that curses his very name needs him, and he's going to stay around until they don't anymore. Can you truly hate someone that selfless even after you've read his POVs?

[Majsju]

 

ofc rand and mat have been...i wasnt speculating lol

raid to defeat an enemy w/o siege or assault

rand even used the word "raid"

reread last few chapter book 5  for a classic lightning raid to break an opponent by removing there leader and win a war w/o a siege or assault

There is one huge difference here. Rand did not have to worry about casualties. That alone makes the two scenarios so different that they can not be compared. Then you can add that Elaida, for all her flaws, is a legally elected leader. Rahvin, quite a different story.

 

here is how i would perscute a egwene's war vs eliada

1- gather as much info as possible by dreamwalking

There are limits to what you can learn. For example, you can not see if Elaida is lying in her bed, you can not see if she is alone. Quite important details.

 

2- send in scouts to tar valon via traveling and id were eliada sleep via scouting using moghedien/forsaken bag of tricks*

Actually, they have a fairly good idea where Elaida sleeps, since the Amyrlin does have her own official residence. Knowing when she sleeps on the other hand...

 

3- strike at night eliada sleeps in 1 place no realtime info nded at all and if u want a day time raid a scout could a open small gateway and send a note to an attack team delay would be a few seconds

Somehow, I doubt that one of the most powerful leaders in the world keeps a strict sleeping schedule in the middle of a crisis. So, just because it is night, there are no guarantees that she is neither asleep nor alone. And even if she is, at any given moment someone could come with an urgent matter to her.

As for trying to have a scout skulking around Elaidas quarters, that might have raised an eyebrow or two, considering that most Aes Sedai barely dares to leave the quarters of her own Ajah.

 

4- weaving of saidar wont be noticed as odd in the white tower(see siuan capture scene) so its a standard shield and grab and skim out

The situation in the Tower is quite differet from when Siuan was taken. While holding Saidar when around other Ajahs might be one thing, doing the same around the Amyrlins quarters...

 

5- declare the war vs eliada over

Usually, declaring a war "over" without having reached an agreement with the other side is shaky at best. Especially when you are the one sitting on the outside.

 

 

[Jameric]

I dont really much understand this raid idea honestly. We know Elaida knows how to travel and that many of them can come at her through that path? As much we all despise her and know she is made for the leadership role, I think is folly to believe her complete idiot. In my mind she probably has wards, maybe set up her private quarters, and even other One Power defenses could be set up. I mean its not a far cry in my mind to want to take some sort of precautions incase my enemy uses such tactics.

 

Secondly, the final battle is going to be rough, the world even reality is falling apart the dead are walking. The greatest battle that has been seen in thousands of years is on the horizon. Can they really afford a battle between 2/3 of all Aes Sedia? Those loses alone would cripple thier power, and the Dark One currently has the advantage without tipping the scales more in his favor. Now lets add the fact they are getting ready to be hit hard by the Seanchan, which post this battle would further decimate their numbers, if not allow them to win because they weakened themselves from this internal conflict.

 

Egwene is extremely smart. She is achieving those same goals with much less bloodshed, but doing so by political scheming, and earning the respect for Elaida's supporters right under her nose as a captive. She is saving that sort of thing as a last resort, and they things are looking it wont be needed.

I would say in the last book she probably had the most character growth out of everyone.

[OptimusPrime]

He is the reason that I am continually rereading this books and I would not be surprised if the same was true for you

 

Im glad someone actually said that aloud. One of the things I like about fantasy is character development; you can throw way more crap at a character than with most other genres. Rands development is fantastic, epic. Realistic. As witewolf said, a hero like Rand who has faults and isnt perfect is much more fun to read. If Rand turned up, Cleansed Saidin, killed all the Forsaken and then beat the Dark One with no trouble it would have been boring. But to see Rand struggle with himself so much, never mind the Forsaken, is such a refreshing storyline that I wonder if I will ever read another series that I enjoy in the same way as this one.

[Mr Ares]

your whole gist seems to be he's the dragon reborn and therefore he has carte blanche to act and do whatever he likes.

No, my whole gist is that Rand does not get points for being popular, and a lot of people are going to hate him no matter what he does. What is important is that he win. If he can win by being nice, by being the mythical good leader you'd like him to be, all well and good. But if people won't follow him like that, he has to make them.

[OptimusPrime]

Exactly. Rand cant possibly please everyone. Check out my earlier post about fikkle77 and shiekh, who hate Rand equally for opposite reasons. Imagine being Rand, with everyone either betraying him, scheming against him, or hating him.

 

The more I think about TGS being a Rand book, the more I cant wait.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

+1

[Yiceman]

Mr. sheihk chilli, sir, you completely ignored my main point.

 

Rand's behavior is an intentional part of the story. You can tell by reading the book that RJ himself thinks Rand is going about it the wrong way. He's dedicated an entire storyline to Cadsuane and Sorilea trying to make him remember "laughter and tears." Your argument that he's a bad character is foolish then, considering the circumstances.

 

You can't look at someone like Gollum and say he's a bad character because he's insane and wretched...those are traits intentionally written in to make him unique and compelling. Same goes for Rand. As Mr Ares said, being a hero doesn't depend on popularity (I in fact prefer protagonists who aren't appreciated by the characters in the story. It makes things more interesting).

 

Rand's hardness is reaching such extreme grounds for the purpose of upping the ante on his character arc. In a book so big, we can hardly expect the central character to be cheerful to the very end, can we? I must say again that'd be pretty dumb.

 

And given the fact that other characters acknowledge his behavior, from Cadsuane wanting him to be strong, not hard, to Perrin upset with him over using his friends, we can assume that Rand's nature will serve a major plot point in the upcoming books.

 

Rand's character doesn't suck...he's one of the better protagonists out there. The fact that you think he's a jerk is irrelevant. My favorite character in anything, books or movies, is a tremendous dick (like attempting to murder a 7-year-old) but I appreciate the way he's written.

[Inveli]

So let me get this straight. You guys think the ends justify the means? Oh i am rand al thor. The saviour of the world. You better do as i say or i will blow your brains out. Oh i do this to protect the world you live in. Damn.

 

I would not even have a problem with rand roughshodding over dumb ass people like weiramon for example. But rand al thor has passed a zone which frankly turns him to a total unfeeling tool.

 

 

For example. loial the ogier was on of his closest friends. You see their friendship in book 2. Go to LOC. He treats his own friend like a piece of meat. Props to perrin for standing up to the fool who was using his friend like that. There is no excuse for that. Treating friends like that. Then you go to knife of dreams he cant even find even the slightest bit of happiness for the ogier's marriage.

Again book 5 moiraine's death. He had to force himself to mourn her death. Struck me as pitiful and fake. That after the whole hilarious BS about not killing lanfear because she was a woman. So it's not just nobles he treats like shit but his own companions too. Strikes me as completely pathetic. If he's the sort of person who was instructed to save the world then i will gladly welcome the great lord of the dark taking over.

 

 

It's says smething when you can't even warm to the book's central character. Hell i like padan fain more than al thor now. At least there's abit of consistency with fain.

 

 

Rand isn't necessarily a bad guy. It's just that, if you pay attention to the story, everybody is fighting each other. Everybody is fighting him. Even when he showed some compassion and respect, they were all plotting against him and were trying to kill him, use him, and even go so far as to hurt his friends. When he went so far as to almost hurt Perrin, he knew deep inside that he was wrong and that he didn't mean to feel that way. See, as Cadsuane puts it, Rand has put a stone wall around him. He can't deal with all the turmoil he's going through and what most oblivious people in all of Randland and most of the world don't know is that Rand may be an asshole sometimes, but in the end, he is their asshole, you know what I mean?

 

It's all politics and Daes Dai'mar, you see. Heck, Thom's apprentice was killed because of Dais Dai'mar even though she was an innocent bystander. Even he himself was an innocent bystander. The moment Rand stepped into Cairhien, he was thrown into Daes Dai'mar and that made his quest for the Dagger(and Horn, if you include that) hard and he needed that for Mat, for his own friend. You say that Rand has to just snap out of it and rule with compassion and what not. But that's the thing: he can't. It's not that easy. And all that time trapped in the box, tortured for most of the day made sure of that. Before Dumai's Wells, when he was held hostage, he was shielding his emotions and wasn't going to give into it. That when the "wall", as described by Cadsuane, came. And that's why Cadsuane is on a mission help Rand relearn to "laugh and weep" and what not.

 

Heck, Rand mourned for all the women who died because of him later in the series, even Moiraine. But sometimes, he can't go further because for everyone else, it's a competition. It's always a battle. Elyas Machera even explained in the first book that saying Artur Hawkwing was all "lenient, compassionate, and fair" is not true. Hawkwing did pretty much the same tactics. And it's even harder for Rand because Rand is trying to save everyone here, but nobody will let him do it. On the contrary, almost everybody is going against him. Even Egwene, as you can see in the book, has developed an animosity for Rand, which pisses me off. Oh, and if that isn't enough for you, then I got three words that will explain Rand better for you: LORD OF CHAOS.

 

 

hawking was awesome. say what you want but he's 10 times the leader rand al thor will ever be. So what if he hated aes sedai. he was manipulated by ishy. artur could not channel and ishy was the dark one's general. cant blame him for that.

 

rand al thor acts like total unfeeling tool and he does not have the excuse of someone manipulating him

 

Artur Hawkwing was harsh and brutal. He had his reasons for being so just like Rand. Firstly, how do you even know Artur was a leader who was "ten times better" than Rand. Did the books say so? No, they did not. Don't make assumptions based on your opinion. Secondly, yes, Artur Hawkwing was used by Ishamael a couple times. But maybe that wasn't the only reason. He controlled all of Randland and even when he wasn't being manipulated, he had to be firm with his empire. So, yes, he hanged people and did all sorts of mean stuff. Just like Rand. All the leaders from history that we look up to had to be firm in their command when most people thought that they were all rainbows and butterflies.  But that's not true. Rand is under pressure and is trying to get everyone with him so he could defeat Tarmon Gai'don, but he was tortured and abused many times. Again, so many people are plotting against him and rebelling that he'll never know them all. If you should blame anything, blame Dumai's Wells. That's when things started getting kind of, well, you know. We know that Hawkwing didn't face all the problems Rand had, so stop comparing him to Hawkwing. Seriously, that's how "great leaders" usually act at times. Rand just happens to put a wall between his feelings, what's important to him, and everything else because of Dumai's Wells, or what had happened when he was held hostage.

 

 

that kind of a person is not a saviour. he's a weakling with a pathetic character. So people hate and despise you. Perhaps you should try and set a good example and change people's opinions of you. Just like how egwene seems to be doing in the tower.

 

Oh by the way perrin, and the ogier are some of his closest friends and yet to rand they are nothing but pieces of meat. rand is no saviour. At least to me. He can't even mourn for moraine without forcing himself to do so. what a wuss!

 

 

For pity's sake, this is something Hawkwing never even dealt with and even during his time, he had to do some of the things Rand did. Not because of Ishamael, but because he had to. And please, give me an example of how Rand treats Perrin and Loial before A Crown of Swords.

 

 

a better response would be,

 

hey welcome back loial! I am so glad to see you. I missed you. you look tired. here have a rest. maidens bring something for the ogier. loail you look terrible. sit man. tell me what happened. ' story ends'

 

well thank the light you are okay. by the way Loial i need your help with something. but seeing as you look tired i would like to take you to a stedding to get refreshed. i will send an ashaman with you as protection. once you are refreshed and ready i will let you on the plans. 

 

hey perrin i need you too. you are one of my closest friends. i value your friendship and advice. i need you if i am to stand a chance. But first the ogier needs his strength. You too perrin. It looks like you have knackered yourlf from traveling all the way from emonds field

 

 

But no he needs to treat his friends as if they were merely objects. To be used and thrown away. Like i said such a friend deserves an axe to the head. I don't know about you guys but robert jordan has turned rand al thor to really messed up character. A character with no empathy or sense of compassion. I don't know why alot of people are so enamoured with this tool. Perhaps they like twisted anti heroes. Not me. If he dies at the last battle i say good riddance. One of the worst 'heroes' saviours or whatever you like to call them ever seen in a fantasy book.

 

Okay i must calm down. This is fictitious character we are talking about :P

 

What? Did you expect him to throw a party after all the things he is enduring? Everyone is stating all the reasons why Rand is acting the way he is. A lot of them. Pay attention to those guys. Give them the kudos.

[Ashaman Kovan]

All of your arguments for Rand are well thought out and well written but I think you guys are wasting your....Finger energy, really.

[sketching sedai]

just because it is night, there are no guarantees that she is neither asleep nor alone.

 

With Meidani walking around dressed to kill, my guess is she’d be wide-awake. ;D

 

Off topic but...Couldn’t help myself.

 

 

[a pale tanned lover]

All of your arguments for Rand are well thought out and well written but I think you guys are wasting your....Finger energy, really.

 

I blame you ;D fun to read though :D

[Ashaman Kovan]

All of your arguments for Rand are well thought out and well written but I think you guys are wasting your....Finger energy, really.

 

I blame you ;D fun to read though :D

 

Oh..Yes, I'd conveniently forgotten that I sort of started it haha.

[The Desert Pea]

All of your arguments for Rand are well thought out and well written but I think you guys are wasting your....Finger energy, really.

 

It's alright, it's a good way to pass free time :D

[Ashaman Kovan]

All of your arguments for Rand are well thought out and well written but I think you guys are wasting your....Finger energy, really.

 

It's alright, it's a good way to pass free time :D

 

True enough. :)

[Phariah]

I don't know why alot of people are so enamoured with this tool. Perhaps they like twisted anti heroes. Not me. If he dies at the last battle i say good riddance. One of the worst 'heroes' saviours or whatever you like to call them ever seen in a fantasy book.

i don't know some of the best and most interesting heroes are the ones that get "dirty" , not the so called clean "white knights"

 

Elric Kinslayer from Micheal Moorcock, also from M.Moorcock is Corum and his other Eternal Champions, than u have Raistlin from Dragonlance, and or even Thomas Covenant from Stephen R. Donaldson ( one of the most twisted heroes imho ), just to name a few

 

the so called anti-heroes are far more realistic and interesting

 

[EramofAmandous]

Ok I [glow=red,2,300]HATED[/glow] Thomas Covenant. I had to quit reading I hated that character so bad.

[safwd]

I know im late to the dance here but you have got to be kidding.

 

Lets recap a little bit.

 

Two short years ago Rand was a happy neive kid of roughly 20 living in the same small village (just outside it) that he had for his whole life.

He was going to be a farmer like his father, marry Egwene and have a family.

In the two years that follow Rand has learned that he is the most powerful weapon for the forces of light. He is the Dragon Reborn which strikes fear in the hearts of everyone, Hated and needed at the same time.

He has had to fight against forces that were used to scare him and other children at night so they would go to sleep.

He has to unite an entire continent of people who really dont like each other and the only thing they can agree on is that they like him even less.

Even though they know that they need him at the end they fight him every step of the way.

And he knows that he must have this all worked out in the next year or two because the Blight is about to empty out all over them.

Oh, and by they way, after you save the world you are pretty much a dead man.

 

So you hate him because he isnt being nice to these idiots and ingrates.

 

P.S. Arthur Hawkwing didnt have to save the entire world from the DO, he had the luxury of being nice.

Plus if you listen to Mat and some of the lives he remembers many though Hawkwing was an ass.

[comradekari]

Hear hear safwd.  I'd say he's doing a  pretty good job for a backwoods guy right out of adolescence.  I find his POV kinda painful to read given all the listing of dead women and Lews Therin being crazy left and right.  But to hate the character? For someone slowly going insane who knows he's destined to die as well as get a ton of others killed in the process to save the world from falling under the shadow...I give him props for not throwing himself off the nearest tower.