Strength of The Dark One and how to weaken "Him"

[magnutz]

Hi people!

 

I have read the works of a handful of fantasy authors and some aspects of their work are always the same. I am talking about how the Good Ones go about defeating the Bad Ones.

 

In Robert Jordan's truly epic saga we have all gotten to know the Bad One and "his" henchpersons. We have met beasty Trollocs and Creepy Fades, sneaky Darkfriends and totally deranged Forsaken. The Dark One is often mentioned and we have gotten some feeling of what "he" must be like but one thing that I wonder about right now is: How do The Good Ones go about lessening "His" power?

 

In many other Fantasy stories the Bad Guy/Gal is defeated quite easily (in the end) as the Good Ones continually take out his henchpersons. The Bad One invests a lot of "His" power into the people "He" employs (hehe) and when they are taken out of the picture "He" is lessened and this paves the road for our Heroes.

 

In WoT I haven't seen this. In fact, the Bad One encourages his employees to compete and kill each other off in order to show themselves worthy. The Darkfriends are also expendable just like Fades and Trollocs, Drahkgars and Dark Hounds. Where does the Bad One get "His" strength from?

 

In some stories the evil doer gets power from the ammount of worshippers "he" has, and the ammount of grizzly sacrifices these worshippers perform. In other stories the bad guy gets power from artifacts or something else that is sinister enough.

 

In WoT I don't see this. What are your thoughts on The Dark One and "His" source of power? The True Source?

 

Holding my breath. ;)

[mb]

True Source, that is the Light side's Power and comes from the Creator.

The books tell that the Dark One is the equal & opposite of the Creator.

 

The Dark One probably has had his own power from the beginning of his existence.

 

[Mr Ares]

In many other Fantasy stories the Bad Guy/Gal is defeated quite easily (in the end) as the Good Ones continually take out his henchpersons. The Bad One invests a lot of "His" power into the people "He" employs (hehe) and when they are taken out of the picture "He" is lessened and this paves the road for our Heroes.

Do you have any examples? Lord of the Rings, for example, Sauron was defeated when the One Ring was, because he put so much of his power into it, but destroying the Ring itself was difficult, and thus defeating the bad guy was hardly made easy by defeating his henchpeople. In fact, Frodo couldn't bring himself to destroy the Ring, no-one could.

 

Where does the Bad One get "His" strength from?

From Himself. I don't think He has any external soure of power.

[magnutz]

In many other Fantasy stories the Bad Guy/Gal is defeated quite easily (in the end) as the Good Ones continually take out his henchpersons. The Bad One invests a lot of "His" power into the people "He" employs (hehe) and when they are taken out of the picture "He" is lessened and this paves the road for our Heroes.

Do you have any examples? Lord of the Rings, for example, Sauron was defeated when the One Ring was, because he put so much of his power into it, but destroying the Ring itself was difficult, and thus defeating the bad guy was hardly made easy by defeating his henchpeople. In fact, Frodo couldn't bring himself to destroy the Ring, no-one could.

 

Where does the Bad One get "His" strength from?

From Himself. I don't think He has any external soure of power.

 

Eddings uses this "kill the worshippers/henchmen" style. I Believe R E Feist does this as well. The Gods can't exist if noone believes in them.

 

I bet that at least some of The Dark One's power is dealt out to "His" henchmen. He shares his Power. Perhaps that will work in direct opposition to the "kill worshippers to weaken Bad One" idea. Since The Dark One shares power he must get that shared power back as "His" henchmen get killed... ;)

[Liam_1993]

if the dark one is the opposite to the creator then why doesnt the creator help the 'good guys'? in fact he never does anything      what the hell?

[Spirit1025]

if the dark one is the opposite to the creator then why doesnt the creator help the 'good guys'? in fact he never does anything      what the hell?

 

That is something I have often wondered about. We see the Dark One's hand all the time. He is directly affecting the world, he has devout followers like the Forsaken and darkfriends, and all his creatures. But we don't see the direct intervention of the Creator in the world so much, and his followers are not nearly as devoted as the Dark One's. They rarely spare the Creator more than an occasional thought or prayer. He definitely doesn't have much impact on their daily lives. They are more concerned with 'the Light'. I don't know if this force is synonymous with the Creator or not, but we see them praying/thanking the Light more than the Creator.

 

Where is the Creator? Does he have any power over the Dark One? Will he offer any help in defeating the Dark One?

 

An interesting side note, though not really related to the topic at hand.

[Discomandavis]

The way I see it is this:

 

Rand=Jesus

His purpose is to sacrifice himself to save the world from the dark one.

The Dark One= Satan

His purpose is to destroy humanity.

The Creator= God

God is the ultimate power, but he doesn't step in whenever times get tuff. The Dark Ones power is no were near as strong as the creators, but the creator will not step in because it isn't his challenge.

 

The ending is pretty easy to guess, Rand will die saving humanity, only to be ressurected later on. I am pretty confident in this... My idea for a cool ending is this.

 

Min saw glory in Logains future. I think Rand dies defeating The Dark One, and Logain sacrifices himself to bring Rand back to life. There is a lo of glory in this if you ask me.

[Thanatos]

if the dark one is the opposite to the creator then why doesnt the creator help the 'good guys'? in fact he never does anything      what the hell?

 

That is something I have often wondered about. We see the Dark One's hand all the time. He is directly affecting the world, he has devout followers like the Forsaken and darkfriends, and all his creatures. But we don't see the direct intervention of the Creator in the world so much, and his followers are not nearly as devoted as the Dark One's. They rarely spare the Creator more than an occasional thought or prayer. He definitely doesn't have much impact on their daily lives. They are more concerned with 'the Light'. I don't know if this force is synonymous with the Creator or not, but we see them praying/thanking the Light more than the Creator.

 

Where is the Creator? Does he have any power over the Dark One? Will he offer any help in defeating the Dark One?

 

An interesting side note, though not really related to the topic at hand.

 

The Creator stays out of it because he already knows the end result.  It has happened countless times before, and it will continue to happen again and again.  Why bother wasting your effort if the outcome will always be the same?  The Dark One can't be destroyed because he is the opposite of the Creator.  He needs his opposite to exist.  Like Peter Griffin says, if God didnt have the Devil to occupy him, he would probably go insane and blow his brains out.

[magnutz]

I personally loathe the thought of RJ's World and its workings being equal to Christianity. Hopefully it will NOT EVER be an ending like that. Rand is NOT Jesus. Gah, I must get that suggestion stilled/gentled and forgotten ASAP.

 

Oh well. :) Time for coffee.

[Mr Ares]

Eddings uses this "kill the worshippers/henchmen" style.

Ah. I've not read Eddings.

I Believe R E Feist does this as well.

Well, Feist's gods can be influenced by worshippers, but it might take a while. They hope to bring a dead god back to life with a few more centuries of prayer, for example.

 

why doesnt the creator help the 'good guys'?

Because he doesn't care that much.

 

Will he offer any help in defeating the Dark One?

No.

 

The way I see it is

Wrong.

The Dark Ones power is no were near as strong as the creators

The series is not based on Christian theology. Shai'tan and the Creator are both gods, not one a god and the other a fallen angel.

 

There is a lot of glory in this if you ask me.

Not much power, though. Most people seem to forget she saw glory and power.

[Thor]

the creator by definition (of being opposite of dark one) should not help the people fight the dark one.

 

if the dark one is chaos, then the creator is order.

if the dark one is destruction, then the creator is building/nurturing.

 

so to fight the dark one would make the creator against everything he is supposed to be, and he would lose his powers, completely, like a fallen paladin.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

if the dark one is the opposite to the creator then why doesnt the creator help the 'good guys'? in fact he never does anything      what the hell?

 

That is something I have often wondered about. We see the Dark One's hand all the time. He is directly affecting the world, he has devout followers like the Forsaken and darkfriends, and all his creatures. But we don't see the direct intervention of the Creator in the world so much, and his followers are not nearly as devoted as the Dark One's. They rarely spare the Creator more than an occasional thought or prayer. He definitely doesn't have much impact on their daily lives. They are more concerned with 'the Light'. I don't know if this force is synonymous with the Creator or not, but we see them praying/thanking the Light more than the Creator.

 

Where is the Creator? Does he have any power over the Dark One? Will he offer any help in defeating the Dark One?

 

An interesting side note, though not really related to the topic at hand.

 

Actually we do see the Creator's hand, or rather his voice, once in the series. EOTW - "IT IS NOT HERE. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL." He's saying that the Last Battle isn't here yet or something, because Rand is about to walk up those stairs (skimming?) and 'kill' Ishamael, and he thinks that Ishy is the Dark One.

[The Dragon Reborn]

why doesnt the creator help the 'good guys'?

Because he doesn't care that much.

 

Will he offer any help in defeating the Dark One?

No.

 

I'd have disagree with Mr. Ares, I don't think that the creator doesn't care, he just chooses not to intervene. Which would fall in line with the Creator being the opposite of the Dark One.

 

In The EotW it's fairly certain that the Creator speaks to Rand saying: 'I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL'

[Spirit1025]

Yeah, that's (in my awareness) the only time we get anything directly from the Creator. There just seems not to be an equal balance of their hands directly influencing the world, which is odd to me if they are equal beings. Or the balance is equal and just not shown to us. So, if you say the Creator chooses not to interfere because he already knows what will happen--does the Dark One not know? Does he forget that he's been defeated every time since the beginning of time, or does he have some crazy hope that 'this time it will be different?' What do you think?

[Lanthirrhos]

I don't think the Creator and the DO are equal at all. It's not about "power" (of which I don't think they're equal in as well) it's about knowledge. And who knows more between them? Which shows the greater wisdom? I haven't seen any wisdom from the DO, while we have at least one obvious quote showing a deeper understanding from the Creator. Next, the Creator, being the creator Has extensive knowledge of his creations. If the DO was the equal of the Creator, he'd take his ball and go elsewhere. However, he is NOT the equal is power nor wisdom (hence he is bent on taking over the creator's creations).

 

Next, the DO can be defeated by mortals. I've never been under the opinion that a being who can be defeated by mortals is actually a "God"... no matter what the author calls them.

[Mr Ares]

the creator by definition (of being opposite of dark one) should not help the people fight the dark one.

 

if the dark one is chaos, then the creator is order.

if the dark one is destruction, then the creator is building/nurturing.

 

so to fight the dark one would make the creator against everything he is supposed to be, and he would lose his powers, completely, like a fallen paladin.

Well, that makes no sense at all. Par for the course.

 

I'd have disagree with Mr Ares, I don't think that the creator doesn't care, he just chooses not to intervene.

The viewpoint that the Creator doesn't much care is one put forward in the books - CoT, I believe, Rand thinks to himself that the Creator would no more care than a gardener would if a petal dropped off a plant.

 

So, if you say the Creator chooses not to interfere because he already knows what will happen

He doesn't.

Does he forget that he's been defeated every time since the beginning of time, or does he have some crazy hope that 'this time it will be different?'

He knows what has happened on previous turnings, but he is not bound to repeat His actions. He can try a different approach each time, based on what He thinks will work. And one time, it will. He only has to get lucky once.

 

And who knows more between them?

We don't know, as we have no basis to make any assessment.

Which shows the greater wisdom?

What counts as wisdom?

Next, the Creator, being the creator Has extensive knowledge of his creations.

Not necessarily.

If the DO was the equal of the Creator, he'd take his ball and go elsewhere.

Why?

However, he is NOT the equal is power nor wisdom (hence he is bent on taking over the creator's creations).

He is his equal and opposite.

 

Next, the DO can be defeated by mortals.

Well, they can lock Him up again. A temporary frustration of His plans, and He was never given freedom of operation to begin with, so they are able to get a limited victory over a limited opponent.

I've never been under the opinion that a being who can be defeated by mortals is actually a "God"... no matter what the author calls them.

Well, that's because you're wrong. Being a god doesn't make one invincible.

[Mandragoran]

The DO is being defeated by the Pattern woven by the Wheel, which produces particular threads, the Dragon being one of them. I suspect the Pattern itself may be another trap or layer of the prison for the DO, one which he doesn't seem able to break out of. Even when he enters the Pattern to alter it, he does so where it is at its thinnest but that implies the Pattern isn't completely undone and thus the DO himself is subjected to it. The Wheel is trapping him, he admits he can't step outside of time and sounds frustrated by it.

 

 

[Durinax]

I think the true power is the combination of both saidin and saidar, both deities have unlimited access to it.

 

I also believe that while the DO tries to tear the pattern apart usign the true power the creator opposes it and keeps it intact

 

I also believe that the creator is most of the dark ones prison, and that the creator was damaged by the 'drilling' and each resealing is an attempt to return the creator to full power, thus completely sealing the DO away

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Well it says in the books the True Power stems directly from the Dark One. Also it has terrible consequences that I doubt would stem from the pureness of the True Source.

 

The Dark One can touch the Pattern but I don't think he can really rip it apart yet. Also I don't think the Creator really actively opposes him anyway, he just leaves it to his creations.

 

I doubt that anything, even with channeling, could harm the Creator. It's like with the Dark One, neither can be killed or hurt, but the Dark One at least can be sealed away. The Creator bound the Dark One at the moment of creation, so I doubt he used his body to trap him.

[Durinax]

The Dark One can touch the Pattern but I don't think he can really rip it apart yet. Also I don't think the Creator really actively opposes him anyway, he just leaves it to his creations.

 

I doubt that anything, even with channeling, could harm the Creator. It's like with the Dark One, neither can be killed or hurt, but the Dark One at least can be sealed away. The Creator bound the Dark One at the moment of creation, so I doubt he used his body to trap him.

let me live in my foolish dilusions lol jk

 

Insert Quote

Well it says in the books the True Power stems directly from the Dark One. Also it has terrible consequences that I doubt would stem from the pureness of the True Source.

the only side effects I can remember is its addictiveness and Saa. but both saidar and saidin are addictive so combined it would only be worse. Plus reserving the ability to give the true power to someone loyal enoguh would be a great reward, and it would allow you too do things that others cannot (specially since the greatest creations of channelers used both saidar and saidin)

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Yeah but why would the world "seem to scream" as he "tears" open a hole in the pattern with the True Power to Travel? Also why would the Dark One exclusively have the power to grant people the ability to use both of them? And before you make the Aran'gar example, he/she/it uses saidin because his/her/its soul is male.

[magnutz]

Crazy theory alert!

 

This is how to weaken The Dark One.

 

Rand has learned from Lan that sometimes there is only one way out of a sticky situation: Sheathe the Sword - like Kill Yourself. Rand goes mad when facing the Dark One as the Dark One merges with him- becomes part of him - but enough of Rand stays online in order for him to use a sword on himself. As he dies so does The Dark One become weaker and someone else can kill him. Then Nyneave gets to heal that which can't be healed - Death. She brings back Rand and Rand alone since the Sheathing of The Sword somehow killed Lews Therin - maybe Lews died as Rand died but in healing death Nyneave only brought back the real deal (Rand).

 

So, Dark One takes over Rand completely - Rand emerges within his own mind to perform the utlimate fighting maneuver Sheathe Your Sword - Rand dies and leaves The Dark One exposed to Rand's helpers who gathers to finish the job - Nyneave puts her healing power to the test and heals Rand back to life - Lews Therin is not present in Rand when Rand comes back to life - That is my crazy theory. I might work on it to make it more cracy! ;)

[The Dragon Reborn]

The viewpoint that the Creator doesn't much care is one put forward in the books - CoT, I believe, Rand thinks to himself that the Creator would no more care than a gardener would if a petal dropped off a plant.

 

My point was not that the viewpoint isn't put forward, more that there is no evidence from the creator himself that he doesn't care. The fact that he spoke to Rand at all would indicate (to me at least) that he does care, but refuses to interveve for other reasons.

 

If I remember the scence correctly, that was Rand's opinion (or rather Lews Therin's) regarding the creator...

[Cybertrolloc]

In The EotW it's fairly certain that the Creator speaks to Rand saying: 'I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL'

Have we ever had confirmation on this? Don't have an EotW to check for description of the voice or if chosen is used in reference to the forsaken yet.

[magnutz]

The viewpoint that the Creator doesn't much care is one put forward in the books - CoT, I believe, Rand thinks to himself that the Creator would no more care than a gardener would if a petal dropped off a plant.

 

My point was not that the viewpoint isn't put forward, more that there is no evidence from the creator himself that he doesn't care. The fact that he spoke to Rand at all would indicate (to me at least) that he does care, but refuses to interveve for other reasons.

 

If I remember the scence correctly, that was Rand's opinion (or rather Lews Therin's) regarding the creator...

 

I see it like this and have found it so in most all fantasy (and non-fantasy genres like crime novels and such) :

 

The Dark Power is a total control freak who does not, ever, let His power out of his control. The Dark Power almost never lets His henchmen unite and fight as a group but He lets them do bits and pieces of his bidding one by one.

 

The Power of Light always have more people working together and He shares His power with the people He employs.

 

When we look at WoT in this fashion it looks like ”The Creator” does care and shows it by uniting His followers, making them work towards the same goal. He shows it by releasing old powers anew.

 

It also shows ”The Dark One” and his governing style: trust no one. Keep your power to yourself. One example: Using the True Source (or what it is called) drives you mad. ”The Dark One” wants noone around him that is too powerful – distrust. Control freak. All the Forsaken are almost driven to dissention and I believe they are. “The Dark One” wants the control.

 

To sum up: The Creator cares a lot. More than you might think. What he does it that he shares his wonders among all his followers/helpers. Lucky Mat, general Perrin, See-Stuff Min, Read ter'angreal Aviendha, Dream Walking Egwene, Super-healing Nynaeve... the list goes on.

The Dark One wants control and cares not what happens to his henchmen. He gives his “wonders” reluctantly and never without keeping a short leash on the ones he bestowes them on.

 

What do you think about that?