Is Anyone Else Upset That Mr Jordan Willingly *Spoiled* a HUGE Part of The End??

[The Fisher King]

Now, RJ can pretty much do no wrong in my eyes, and im hoping that his family and widow are continuing to hang in there, though obviously they still miss him - heck, we still miss him and we're just his readers, not his family!

 

But, the one thing he did that always upset me (but i know he didn't do it on purpose) was when he would talk about Mat and Tuon in future books set ten years after The Last Battle.

 

Ummm, isn't that sort of like just saying "Don't worry, you don't need any suspense about this one - Mat and Tuon make it just fine, they don't die and theres still a world left for them to inhabit ten years later...?"

 

Again, i love rj, its just this particular *action* of his always stuck me as very very curious...and out-of-character considering how famously tightlipped he always was about character's futures...(RAFO, anyone? lol)

 

Fish

[Kadere]

I got to say I totally agree Fisher King. I was upset when I first read it because it was such a spoiler. I still had hope that maybe Mat would be the one Ta'varen to die in TG, but I guess now I don't have to worry about him, Tuon, or really the fate of the world. Apparently Rand must win if Mat's going to still be around. But there's still plenty left to wonder about.

[The Fisher King]

Exactly Kadere...With the exception of Rand, Mat is (well, tied with Perrin) THE SINLGLE-MOST MAJOR CHARACTER IN THE SERIES - LOL!!!

 

RJ was famous for giving RAFO about questions regarding minor characters and storylines...it just always seemed bizarre and out-of-character to me that he talked in later years so freely about Mat and Tuon's future.

 

It ticked me off initially...then, the more i thought about it - and to this day - it just seemed so weird for RJ.

 

And, you are right, there are still plenty of surprises in store, but now knowing what happens to General of the Forces of Light (especially pre TOG scenes) and one of the most important Ta'veren to ever live...it just seems like a bit of a let down in a weird sort of way.

 

The series is still Awesome. Jordan is still Awesome. I still can't wait for TGS...this is just my opinion on one aspect of it.

 

Fish

 

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Well remember the old saying, "Happiness is in the journey, not at the destination". As long as its got a awesome deliverance and ending, I could really care less if everyone except Mat and Tuon died.

[dholm]

Eh. It's not as if we didn't already know that the Great Lord of the Dark doesn't win.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Exactly..we always knew the Forces of Light were going to win

[Mr Ares]

I wouldn't say he spoiled a huge part of the end. That the world would survive was practically a given, and Mat and Tuon survivng tells us nothing more than that they will survive. There are far more interesting things to do with a character than kill them, so there is still a world of possibilities open for the two of them, in terms of what could happen before the end of the series. He's only shut off one.

[mb]

Without being told of the outriggers, we have already known that at least Mat would survive because he has already fulfilled the Aelfinn prediction of "die and live again".

 

Depending on when Tenobia and Bashere die, there might be a chance that Perrin & Faile would survive.

 

Rand is prophesied to die during Tarmon Gaidon, though there might be a chance that he would be resurrected. ("twice to live and twice to die")

 

Elayne & Aviendha for certain will survive because they are to give birth to Rand's children.  Min probably would also survive.

 

Nynaeve & Lan would probably survive. (Min's first viewings of Lan.)

 

These might also survive:

-Egwene & Gawyn (Dream of Gawyn's paths, Dream of Egwene tied to a hawk)

-Berelain & Galad (Viewing of Berelain meeting a man in White, Dream of Egwene tied to a hawk)

-Moiraine & Thom (supposed Viewing of their wedding)

-Siuan & Gareth (Viewing of Siuan finding a man, Viewing advising the two to be close to each other)

-Caraline & Darlin (Viewing of them marrying, Viewing of Darlin dieing in bed & Caraline surviving him)

 

[The Fisher King]

Mr Ares, im with you.

 

I think though, that for me, i like that sense of suspense about certain characters and the whole 'Will they live or will they die' feeling.

 

I will say this: That while Jordan is NOT 'quite' as frequent in killing major characters as some of his contemporaries, i still highly highly doubt that Rand, Mat and Perrin all 3 live through TG.

 

I am not basing that on anything - just a feeling that it seems unrealistic and unlikely.

 

But, then again, it could be a bit more realistic if for no other reason than the fact that they are each Tav'eren may assist greatly in that matter.

 

Should be exciting to find out.

 

Fish.

[Beli Tsar]

The general assumption is that the light side would indeed find a way to win and salvage some kind of world, BUT (and this all purely me throwing alternate ending theories) the dark side could still win on this side of the ocean, while Mat & Tuon flee with the remnant of their forces back to Seanchan where they try to consolodate the land back under their rule and try to hold out. As we found out in KoD, Shadowspawn can't Travel and we've yet to hear of there being any Waygates in Seanchan, not to mention they absolutely loathe water, and I think we're all agreed the Aryth Ocean is substantial bit of water to cross. Only way for forces of the dark to conceivably invade would be Shadowspawn taking a long round about way across the blight, the remaining forsaken and dreadlords Traveling and laying waste (though there very well could be surving damane/sul'dam and aes sedai), or darkfriend armies Traveling or building enough ships to invade en masse. So it is possible, albeit highly unlikely, that the ending could be other than we think and the outriggers could still happen.

 

Of course the one wrench in my "theory" is that in the likelihood of a dark side victory the Dark One would most likely be set free, and unless he's significantly less powerful than we've been led to believe I doubt any land or peoples no matter how distant and numerous would be safe from him.

[JenniferL]

I think it would be a pretty crappy ending if the Dark One won in the end. I'd feel like the rug had been pulled out from under me.

[dholm]

-Siuan & Gareth (Viewing of Siuan finding a man, Viewing advising the two to be close to each other)

Finding a man? I can think of only two viewings Min had of Siuan, and if you're referring to the one where she was naked, and where Siuan assumes she'll take a lover, then it has already come to pass. Siuan was wrong; it refers to her being taken prisoner by Elaida and severed. She and Leane are naked in the cell they've been put in when Min and Laras come to rescue them.

 

In the pitch blackness of the cell, Siuan opened her eyes, stirred, winced, and was still. Was it morning yet outside? The questioning had gone on for a long time. She tried to forget pain in the luxury of knowing she was still breathing. The rough stone beneath her scraped her welts and bruises, though, those on her back. Sweat stung all of them—she felt a solid mass of pain from knees to shoulders—and made her shiver in the cold air, besides. They could have left me my shift, at least. The air smelled of old dust and dried mold, of age. One of the deep cells. No one had been confined down here since Artur Hawkwing’s time. Not since Bonwhin.

[Mr Ares]

Without being told of the outriggers, we have already known that at least Mat would survive because he has already fulfilled the Aelfinn prediction of "die and live again".

That makes no sense at all. We knew that he would die, and live again, but once he has come back it doesn't tell us how long he will be back for. So we did not know he would survive the series, not until RJ mentioned his adventures with Tuon 10 years down the line.

 

Depending on when Tenobia and Bashere die, there might be a chance that Perrin & Faile would survive.

Likely Perrin and Faile survive.

 

Rand is prophesied to die during Tarmon Gaidon, though there might be a chance that he would be resurrected. ("twice to live and twice to die")

Likely Rand will die and come back.

 

Elayne & Aviendha for certain will survive because they are to give birth to Rand's children.  Min probably would also survive.

Likely all three will survive.

 

Nynaeve & Lan would probably survive. (Min's first viewings of Lan.)

No. There's really no strong indication either will survive.

 

-Egwene & Gawyn (Dream of Gawyn's paths, Dream of Egwene tied to a hawk)

Death is certainly a possibility for both.

-Berelain & Galad (Viewing of Berelain meeting a man in White, Dream of Egwene tied to a hawk)

Death of either or both quite possible.

-Moiraine & Thom (supposed Viewing of their wedding)

Might live, might die, non-existent Viewing of their wedding.

 

I think though, that for me, i like that sense of suspense about certain characters and the whole 'Will they live or will they die' feeling.

Bear in mind that most characters have wide open fates. Including a lot of major ones - Egwene, Nynaeve, Lan, Gawyn, etc. I wouldn't be surprised at seeing a few shuffle of their mortal coil before the end. It should also be noted that our beliefs about what will happen might not be as certain as we think - for example, the Broken Crown Viewing around Perrin. Just because he and Faile come to the crown, doesn't mean they will have a long reign. They might inherit before TG, and one dies during. Moiraine and Thom marrying is far from set in stone, and even if they do they don't have to live happily ever after. Logain's glory might be of the "going out in a blaze of" variety. Egwene's Dreams give a good indication of Gawyn and Egwene dying, although it's not set in stone.

Him [Gawyn] kneeling while she cupped his head in her hands.

“You will be my Warder.” She had not realised the words were coming out of her mouth until they did, but once they did, she knew they were true. That dream. Gawyn kneeling for her to hold his head.

In another he began swinging a door closed on her, and she knew if that narrowing gap of light vanished, she was dead.

In the way of dreams she floated above a long straight road across a grassy plain, looking down upon a man riding a black stallion. Gawyn. Then she was standing in the road in front of him, and he reined in. Not because he saw her, this time, but the road that had been straight now forked right where she stood, running over tall hills so no one could see what lay beyond. She knew, though. Down one fork was his violent death, down the other, a long life and a death in bed. On one path, he would marry her, on the other, not. She knew what lay ahead, but not which way led to which. Suddenly he did see her, or seemed to, and smiled, and turned his horse along one of the forks…

Putting these together, I'd say the two of them marrying, getting bonded, and Gawyn turning his back on Egwene and the two of them dying is a reasonable theory. In fact, I'd say Egwene is the most likely death of the characters who left the TR back in book 1, more likely than the boys or Nynaeve. Others may disagree, of course, and no doubt many do. So while Mat's survival is undoutedly a spoiler, it's not enough to diminish my anticipation for the final books.

 

Another point, about the ruthlessness of many fantasy writers today compared to RJ: characters are kept around or killed off for a reason. RJ couldn't kill Rand in book 1, because he still needed his prohesied saviour. Come the end of the series, he won't any more, so killing off Rand, or any other major character, becomes a possibility. Not that we should expect all, or even most to die, but given that this is the Last Battle, the end of the series, and RJ has been willing to kill off minor characters once they had outlived their usefulness, a few fairly major deaths would seem quite likely, even given his previous form of keeping them alive.

[mb]

-Siuan & Gareth (Viewing of Siuan finding a man, Viewing advising the two to be close to each other)

Finding a man? I can think of only two viewings Min had of Siuan, and if you're referring to the one where she was naked, and where Siuan assumes she'll take a lover, then it has already come to pass. Siuan was wrong; it refers to her being taken prisoner by Elaida and severed. She and Leane are naked in the cell they've been put in when Min and Laras come to rescue them.

 

In the pitch blackness of the cell, Siuan opened her eyes, stirred, winced, and was still. Was it morning yet outside? The questioning had gone on for a long time. She tried to forget pain in the luxury of knowing she was still breathing. The rough stone beneath her scraped her welts and bruises, though, those on her back. Sweat stung all of them—she felt a solid mass of pain from knees to shoulders—and made her shiver in the cold air, besides. They could have left me my shift, at least. The air smelled of old dust and dried mold, of age. One of the deep cells. No one had been confined down here since Artur Hawkwing’s time. Not since Bonwhin.

The chapter name I think was referring to the Viewing of Aes Sedia & Warder deaths; doubtfully to the one about Siuan.

Unless Robert Jordan confirmed that Siuan's was fulfilled during the tower coop, I think it is more likely that the fulfillment is yet to come.

The Viewing told of a lying position; hardly representing a prisoner situation.  Also, there was something odd about Siuan's Viewing besides the fact of nudity in the image; becoming a prisoner might be considered a 'normal' interpretation in relation to the previous Viewings.  And there is at least one other Viewing that was not fulfilled during the tower coop (silver collar around neck of a certain Aes Sedia); if one Viewing was not fulfilled then, others might also be fulfilled different times.

 

-Moiraine & Thom (supposed Viewing of their wedding)

Might live, might die, non-existent Viewing of their wedding.

Several of Moiraine's discussions seem to hint at it; the ones I refer to I told in other threads.  And their current attitudes toward each other in comparison of before seem to indicate that the Pattern/Wheel planned it.

Viewing of Thom of the White Tower, one fulfillment could be a marriage to an Aes Sedia.  Viewing of Thom of a man who could channel, one fulfillment could be having a channeling son from the Aes Sedia.  Of course other interpretations could fit for either, yet none of them can be ruled out unless Robert Jordan commented about the viewing with something other than a Read-And-Find-Out.

Min has been secret of the Viewings she saw of Moiraine; that would most likely mean a command/order/request from Moiraine for Min to be secret.  Marriage would be a Viewing a non-Green Aes Sedia would want secret from others.  And likely Min has forgotten a number of her earliest viewings of the main characters.

 

Nynaeve & Lan would probably survive. (Min's first viewings of Lan.)

No. There's really no strong indication either will survive.

The Viewing of the towers could indicate that Lan would regain his kingdom; likely during Tarmon Gaidon.  And the Viewing of the baby could indicate him having at least one child; likely through Nynaeve.  Again, other interpretations might fit; and again, none of the interpretations can be ruled out unless the author commented on the viewing.

 

[Mr Ares]

Several of Moiraine's discussions seem to hint at it; the ones I refer to I told in other threads.

And Maj shot them down, which you were unable to reply to.

And their current attitudes toward each other in comparison of before seem to indicate that the Pattern/Wheel planned it.

No they don't.

Marriage would be a Viewing a non-Green Aes Sedia would want secret from others.

And herself, given she has no certainty of coming back.

[mb]

Several of Moiraine's discussions seem to hint at it; the ones I refer to I told in other threads.

And Maj shot them down, which you were unable to reply to.

I no longer responded because it seemed neither of us was going to convince the other (and because I couldn't come with anything different at the time).

By how I interpreted the discussions, the discussions do hint at marriage.  Of course other readers can interpret the discussions differently, yet only the author knows the correct interpretation.

 

And their current attitudes toward each other in comparison of before seem to indicate that the Pattern/Wheel planned it.

No they don't.

At least Thom's attitude could indicate that the Pattern/Wheel planned it.  In the beginning of the series, he disliked Aes Sedia because of his nephew's treatment.

 

[Mr Ares]

I no longer responded because it seemed neither of us was going to convince the other (and because I couldn't come with anything different at the time).

Have you thought of something now? Moiraine doesn't know she is going to survive. That rather reduces the chances of her knowing of an infallible Viewing of her survival and marriage.

 

At least Thom's attitude could indicate that the Pattern/Wheel planned it.

Or just that he doesn't blame Moiraine for what happened to Owyn. That does not require the intervention of a higher power.

[mypeanut]

 

i think his opinion of moiraine lifted considerably when she promised to give him those names. someone will probably point out her affectionate greeting at the end of her letter, don't ask me, i don't have an explanation, it's just a thought. and let's be honest, she's not your average aes sedai.

 

ares, how do you know she isn't aware that she'll survive? i haven't read the books in a while, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

how do you know she isn't aware that she'll survive? i haven't read the books in a while, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.

This is something Maj brought up while talking to mb. Moiraine's letter to Thom acknowledges a number of possibilities - they not succeed in resucing her, they might die or be captured in the attempt. So she does not know that she and Thom will get out of the ToG safely. Yet of she had a Viewing of a wedding, and Min's Viewings always come true, then why the uncertainty? Either a lack of faith in Min, or a lack of Viewings.

[JenniferL]

With the Dark One touching the world and disrupting the Pattern, Min's viewings are no longer infallible. I'm pretty sure I've read that recently, but I can't find the reference.

[a pale tanned lover]

With the Dark One touching the world and disrupting the Pattern, Min's viewings are no longer infallible. I'm pretty sure I've read that recently, but I can't find the reference.

 

Does that also include foretellings and dreams as well Kathana?

[Deadsy]

With the Dark One touching the world and disrupting the Pattern, Min's viewings are no longer infallible. I'm pretty sure I've read that recently, but I can't find the reference.

 

 

That isn't true. The only reason Min thinks her viewings are not infallible is because the ones about Moiraine never came true, because Min is sure that Moiraine is dead.

[Graendals favourite]

As I recall, which may be wrong, the viewing only said that Rand would almost certainly fail without Moiraine. However, this can be interpreted in many ways. Perhaps it is enough that Mat tries to rescue her that launches the winning condition. The rescue would not happen without Moiraine. (Though of course there is the marriage thingy, which on the other hand could happen in Finnland too, with Moiraine and Thom trapped there.)

 

On the other hand it might be funny, come Tarmon Gai'don, if someone were to say: "Her? And you had her brought back from another dimension for this? It is Caraline we need, her and snarlin' Darlin both"  :)

[Deadsy]

As I recall, which may be wrong, the viewing only said that Rand would almost certainly fail without Moiraine.

 

 

There were more viewings than that. That was just the viewing Min thought about in Crown of Swords. This is from Knife of Dreams:

 

"I was wrong about Moiraine. I saw all sorts of things in her future, and she's dead. Maybe some of the other things I saw never came true either."

 

 

 

As to Moiraine being unsure, it makes sense to me. She has two warring pattern readers and has to choose which one to trust. She hasn't known Min long enough to be 100% sure that every. single. viewing will come true.

[Graendals favourite]

Ah ok, didn't remember that.

 

Yea, and probably what she saw in the rings doesn't allow for much certainty. A small bubble of hope she felt when diving into the doorway, that she suppressed because she could not afford it. Moiraine will know some of the conditions which might allow her to escape, but they must be fairly hard to meet. I do wonder what would happen if the gholam followed Mat into Finnland. It is very agile, but the laws of movement are so different there, it might actually not have much of a chance against the Finns. It will certainly have no iron, music, or light with it. It is curious that Finnland would be even harder to escape in a dream than in the waking, as Birgitte claimed, presumably the Finns can hold people in the Dream.

 

For the subject of the thread, I was initially slightly annoyed that success was suggested, but then I took RJ's announcement to mean that the story is ending, that he was relaxing his hold of the rafos. I don't recall now when he announced it, I wonder if it could have been when he had realised he might not be the one finishing the series, so that he could relax a little on that regard.