Is Anyone Else Upset That Mr Jordan Willingly *Spoiled* a HUGE Part of The End??

[Majsju]

As to Moiraine being unsure, it makes sense to me. She has two warring pattern readers and has to choose which one to trust. She hasn't known Min long enough to be 100% sure that every. single. viewing will come true.

 

The knowledge Moiraine has about the rescue mission comes from her trip to Rhuidean. That ter'angreal showed Moiraines timeline (well, parts of it) as a fork, with the different outcomes coming from different choices.

 

Min somehow cuts out all the 'ifs', like she has a filter that only shows the timeline that actually does happen. At least she used to, this seems to have changed now, considering her viewing about Siuan and Bryne. But that is quite irrelevant here. What is relevant, is that Moiraine has never given the slightest hint of having doubts about Mins ability. On the contrary, as Moiraine puts a great deal of trust in her.

[Graendals favourite]

Hmm, a small hope of Moiraine not being stilled occured to me. Moiraine had the advantage of knowing what she must do. Moiraine could have cut the Warder bond to Lan on the other side, since she knew everyone must think her dead as she wrote in the letter. Moiraine and Lanfear both held saidar when they plunged into the doorway, however there is a difference. Likely Moiraine embraced saidar in order to protect herself on the other side, after a fashion. However, before they went through the doorway, Moiraine pried the angreal from Lanfear's grasp. This would not affect Lanfear's channelling through it in itself, however, Moiraine holding it instead of Lanfear should mean the angreal and Lanfear went through the doorway at a different time. This would mean that for a short moment, they were in a different dimension. Such an occurance, with Lanfear drawing saidar powerfully through the angreal and it suddenly disappearing, could very well still her. It probably should.

[Majsju]

Hmm, a small hope of Moiraine not being stilled occured to me. Moiraine had the advantage of knowing what she must do. Moiraine could have cut the Warder bond to Lan on the other side,

 

No. Releasing the bond requires close proximity to the warder, and it does not result in the effects the death or stilling of an Aes Sedai does.

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

So she intentionally embraced the Source in order to be stilled so that Lan would think her dead. That's quite some courage all right.

[Majsju]

Well, that petite body holds more courage than an entire Aiel clan ;D

[Deadsy]

She's not necessarily stilled just because the bond broke. What happened to them hasn't happened at any other time in the series. We can't know that the door melting doesn't break the bond. Obviously, she maybe have been stilled, but I don't think we have proof. We know that entering Finnland doesn't break the bond, but when someone enters Finnland there's still a connection (the doorway) to the outside world. That connection was broken when the door melted. Maybe that was enough by itself to break the bond.

 

 

Also... I realize this can't be used as any kind of proof, but just as far as the story goes, the reason I don't think she is stilled is because Rand will have enough trouble believing it's really Moiraine without her coming back with a new face. So, I think she'll look exactly the same (not stilled), and it will still take some convincing for Rand to believe it.

[Deadsy]

As for the actual topic, it didn't bother me. I always assumed they'd make it. RJ isn't known for killing of characters, even when there were good opportunities to do so.

[Graendals favourite]

There is still the Tower of Ghenjei, as well as the other doorway.

 

I'm not sure it is so important for Rand to believe Moiraine is Moiraine, but if she wants to convince him, all she need do is recite that letter of hers to him, the one whose ink would disappear should any hand but his read it or if he set it down after opening it.

[Majsju]

There is one oddity when it comes to Moiraines appearance. Watch Mins reaction to seeing Caraline. Min knows that Moiraine is dead, and yet Caraline looks so much like Moiraine that Min for a brief moment actually thinks it is Moiraine. And yet, Caraline obviously does not have any traces of the Ageless look. So Moiraines natural look might be very close to how she looked with the Agelessness in full effect.

[Graendals favourite]

Or perhaps in the viewing Min saw Moiraine without the Ageless look. She wouldn't have known it meant stilling, and the similarities in look must be more plain if you can compare the Ageless face to the young face directly. That could have played of Min's reaction to Caraline.

[Majsju]

I think Mins perception of what Moiraine looks like comes from having spent quite some time in her company, rather than a brief viewing. Especially considering that Rand also thinks that caraline is the very image of moiraine, so alike that seeing her sets off his list of dead women.

[Deadsy]

good points  :P

 

 

but i still don't think we know enough about how the doorway works to know that she's been stilled.

[Mr Ares]

With the Dark One touching the world and disrupting the Pattern, Min's viewings are no longer infallible. I'm pretty sure I've read that recently, but I can't find the reference.

What about when the letter was written, back in book 5? If Min's Viewings were still seen as infallible back when she wrote it, then later developments wouldn't be all that important, as she would still believe she had a guarantee of her wedding, which she doesn't.

 

She's not necessarily stilled just because the bond broke.

It's just overwhelmingly likely, given the information we have. After all, if we have only been told about two things that can do it, and she isn't dead, what conclusion would you draw?

[Deadsy]

She's not necessarily stilled just because the bond broke.

It's just overwhelmingly likely, given the information we have. After all, if we have only been told about two things that can do it, and she isn't dead, what conclusion would you draw?

 

We've also been told that severing can't be healed. There's NO way to heal it. Oh wait, there are two ways to heal it.

 

My conclusion would be that we can't make that conclusion based on the information we have. In the past 3 billion years (however long it takes for the world to repeat itself) I'm willing to guess nobody's jumped into a doorway to a completely different world and had it melt behind them, so they haven't had a chance to study if that could be another way to break a bond.

[Mr Ares]

We've also been told that severing can't be healed.

So being whacked around the head with the "severing can't be Healed" line, making it obvious that it can be, is analogous to us not getting any hint, however slight, that exploding doorway ter'angreal might sever a warder bond without cutting someone off from the Source.

 

My conclusion would be that we can't make that conclusion based on the information we have.

On the contrary, it is the only conclusion we can draw.

[Hybrid]

As to Moiraine being unsure, it makes sense to me. She has two warring pattern readers and has to choose which one to trust. She hasn't known Min long enough to be 100% sure that every. single. viewing will come true.

 

The knowledge Moiraine has about the rescue mission comes from her trip to Rhuidean. That ter'angreal showed Moiraines timeline (well, parts of it) as a fork, with the different outcomes coming from different choices.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Rings of Rhuidean did not show Moiraine anything beyond the docks.  I'll have to reread to check it out, since I can't find the exact quote yet.  I do know that the WOTFAQ states it as fact, though.  Moiraine's information likely came from either Min's viewings or the Tear doorway.

[Graendals favourite]

The rings did not show Moiraine anything in Randland beyond the docks, they only showed what would happen where she was. That is, she did not know what would happen in Randland after she dove into the doorway. In other eventualities, when she did not, she did see things happening, namely Rand dying or becoming Lanfear's puppy. She did however see different eventualities for herself in Finnland. This possibly helped her survive being held there, not trying to escape on her own or some such, if Lanfear was not killed simply for being a Darkfriend. And no doubt the chance of rescue would help her survive being stilled. However, she did know the exact conditions when a rescue was not doomed from the start, as she wrote to Thom.

[Majsju]

As to Moiraine being unsure, it makes sense to me. She has two warring pattern readers and has to choose which one to trust. She hasn't known Min long enough to be 100% sure that every. single. viewing will come true.

 

The knowledge Moiraine has about the rescue mission comes from her trip to Rhuidean. That ter'angreal showed Moiraines timeline (well, parts of it) as a fork, with the different outcomes coming from different choices.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Rings of Rhuidean did not show Moiraine anything beyond the docks.  I'll have to reread to check it out, since I can't find the exact quote yet.  I do know that the WOTFAQ states it as fact, though.  Moiraine's information likely came from either Min's viewings or the Tear doorway.

 

In her letter to Rand, Moiraine says she knows nothing about the future, excpet for perhaps one thing, that does not concern Rand. This one thing being her captivity and eventual rescue.

It is quite important to keep in mind that the FAQ was not written by RJ, and it is far from 100% correct.

[draconian]

We've also been told that severing can't be healed.

So being whacked around the head with the "severing can't be Healed" line, making it obvious that it can be, is analogous to us not getting any hint, however slight, that exploding doorway ter'angreal might sever a warder bond without cutting someone off from the Source.

 

My conclusion would be that we can't make that conclusion based on the information we have.

On the contrary, it is the only conclusion we can draw.

the warder bond work like a transmitter and reciever on a right? i think so

and bonds like DO to forsaken can be cut w/o death or stilling

 

so it follows she is stuck outside lans dimension w/o open gate way like the doorway ter'angreal etc

she cant reach him and he cant reach her though the bond what happens? the bond registers it as cut and her instructions take over

i would say that cuts the bond aswell as death or stilling

 

also for all we know she released him as the gate was destroyed and had this all set up

we know she had his xfer alrdy setup and we know she could release him and engage her instruction at any time and we know she does whatever she think is best for the world

 

ill admit the 1st has less facts supporting it but the 2nd is solid

[Majsju]

 

 

ill admit the 1st has less facts supporting it but the 2nd is solid

 

Which second would that be, Moiraine releasing Lan? Doing that requires close proximity, and more time than creating the bond in the first place. Neither of these conditions are met at the docks.

[Mr Ares]

the warder bond work like a transmitter and reciever, right?

Sort of.

bonds like DO to forsaken

...Are completely different.

 

so it follows she is stuck outside lans dimension w/o open gate way like the doorway ter'angreal etc

Except for the other doorway and the Tower. And no indication that being in a different dimension will sever it, and Verin's bond to Tomas didn't snap when she disappeared into a Portal Stone for months on end.

 

also for all we know she released him as the gate was destroyed

Actually, we know she didn't.

 

i would say

Exactly. You would, but the books say nothing of the kind.

[Hybrid]

In her letter to Rand, Moiraine says she knows nothing about the future, excpet for perhaps one thing, that does not concern Rand. This one thing being her captivity and eventual rescue.

I haven't reread TFOH in a while, so I will concede the point.

 

It is quite important to keep in mind that the FAQ was not written by RJ, and it is far from 100% correct.

I know that.  That's why I mentioned that I didn't have a quote from the actual books.

[mb]

From Moiraine's letter to Thom, there seems some degree of certainty of her rescue because she hints at how to rescue her ('Mat knows the way'; 'remember and heed your knowledge of the game Snakes and Foxes').

And the letter to me does not contradict her marrying Thom.  There is a chance that any of the mentioned possibilities could happen in addition to the marriage.  We know from Egwene's Dream of Moiraine that Moiraine will return.  Whatever Min's Viewings of Moiraine were, those also tell that Moiraine will return.  The return might be a resurrection; maybe the classic kiss from a man (Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc).

 

[Hybrid]

The return might be a resurrection; maybe the classic kiss from a man (Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc).

Book, meet open window.

[CUBAREY]

I do know that the WOTFAQ states it as fact, though.  Moiraine's information likely came from either Min's viewings or the Tear doorway.

 

We should remember that WOTFAQ was both written by someone other than RJ and written before KOD was published. The second is important since in it is the first proof that we have that Moraine did indeed know more of the future than the events at the dock. My guess is that the possibility of rescue is one of the alternative futures she glimpsed while walking thorugh the  Wise ones Rings in Rheardon.