Rands lesson

[NEisberg]

I looked to see if this has been discussed but i didnt see anything. Im curious and if you know please tell me.

 

What will Cadsuane (forgive if i misspell) teach Rand?

or has she already taught him? and how?

 

I know Min says it in one of her "sights" i believe.

[rochaid]

i think its laughter and tears(like she agrees with sorilea)...althought there is debate so..

[Chel Vanin]

I actually think its manners. My opinion totally (pretty sure its not a sure thing, and she certainly hasn't tought him it yet) but she's always going on about manners, and Asha'man are in need of that as well. This doesn't change me from hating Caddy (mostly because she's Aes Sedai, but also because she slapped Rand...twice. And yes I know he deserved them both).

[Zardi]

I know she said she wants to teach him laughter and tears, but I don't see how. All she ever does is annoy him. And in any case, she's going to teach Rand and the Asha'man this thing, and I don't see where it suggests that all the Asha'man have completely blocked out emotion like Rand has. I think it could be a combination of Moiraine and Tam who soften Rand again.

 

I think Cadsuane may teach them manners, like Chel Vanin said, or that they aren't just weapons and that they aren't invincible. I have absolutely nothing to back up those opinions either :P

[Guest cwestervelt]

Laughter and tears is something that Cadsuane and Sorilea agreed Rand needs to relearn or else his victory could be worse than his defaet. It isn't something that applies to the Asha'man in general so it really can't be the subject of Min's viewing. It might be humility, as they wouldn't like learning that, but the most arogant of the Asha'man seem to be among Taim's favorites. Trust of female Channelers in general is also another possibility.

[Genesis_XVI]

Rand definitely needs to learn tears and laughter again. Prophecy decrees this needs to happen, and I believe it will, but I think Cadsuane will teach him humility. Him and the Ashaman.

 

I think Tam's death would help Rand remember tears, who knows what could make someone hardened so much by experience laugh???

 

- Genesis_XVI

[Lews Therin Telamon]

what in the world makes anyone think cadsuane must teach rand manners? he doesntneed manners to win Tarmon Gaidon.

 

i think she will teach him to mourn for people who have died, and to smile at happy memories of the deceased. think about it-from rands POV his thoughts show that he refuses to feel anything when someone dies because of him. he refuses to let himself feel anything, whereas cadsuane (along with sorilea?) will teach him to grieve and recover from it. at the moment all the death is eating away at rand while he doesnt know it-cadsuane will help him overcome it. i think this thread (i hope to god that RJ finishes this thread!) will be tied in with Moiraines return

[sarah2482]

Yes its 'Laughter and Tears', which I take to mean emotion - he's blocked all emotion by the void, he maintains it by reciting the name of every woman who has died for him / because of him. Moiraine is one on the list, and I think Cadsuane will have something to do with her return - she will break the cycle he's got himself into and make him feel again.

[Asmodean]

It seems to point to "laughter and tears", but, if anything, Min, Elayne and Avi are the only ones that have kept that emotional end afloat in Rand.

 

I think she's going to teach him patience when dealing with annoying people, by example. :P

[professor_5150]

I think "tears and laughter" is a cleverly disguised metaphor for something else. I think she will teach him to never underestimate anyone. I mean she has all those ter'angreal that she wears, and only a few of them have had their powers described. I can recall that one detects a man channeling, which explains why she is so good at tracking down false dragons. As for laughter and tears, I think it alludes to the fact that it will cause him tears because he will lose something to her over it and give him laughter when he looks back on how foolish he was.

[Zardi]

I don't think "laughter and tears" is a metaphor for anything, since Cadsuane said it herself. She just meant that she wants to make Rand feel emotion again.

 

what in the world makes anyone think cadsuane must teach rand manners? he doesntneed manners to win Tarmon Gaidon.

Well, you could say that he does, in a roundabout way. If he alienates too many people, or is unable to earn the trust and respect of the various groups that haven't officially joined him yet, then he'll be in trouble. And remember, Min's viewing said Cadsuane will teach this thing to Rand and the Asha'man; I don't recall the Asha'man repressing emotion nearly to the extent that Rand does, but they do all need to learn to get along with others (and each other), and learn that they aren't infallible.

 

But to me, the point is that I don't see how Cadsuane could teach Rand to feel emotion again. She hasn't made any progress with him on her own; the only reason he listens to anything she says is because of Min's viewing. He doesn't respect her, and he doesn't trust her. He just knows he has to use her.

[Luckers]

We know that Cadsuane is trying, and that Min thinks she needs to succeed... but we have no indication that she actually will.

 

My guess is that Cadsuane is trying to teach Rand to be a 'better person'. At the moment he is repressing much of his feelings, lacks trust in anyone, and is driving himself to be harder and harder. More to the point he doesn't even percieve there is anything wrong with him--which is understandable, its a fairly subtle thing.

 

But nonetheless it is a significant thing. Something that RJ has utilized before... when Egwene won the contest of the wills with Nynaeve. Elaida would be another perferct example of this at work. Its understanding a certain introspectivity is required. That yourself has less to do with others and more to do with, well, yourself. Rand is defining himself by his fight with the Shadow and is subsequently trying to mold himself into something that fits that situation. Cadsuane understands better that you must be content in yourself before you can face something else.

 

Alot of Aes Sedai, who define themselves by the fact that they are Aes Sedai, do this also. And just look at what RJ does with them, compared to what he does with those Aes Sedai who have managed to free themselves of it--Verin, Moiraine, Cadsuane...

 

That is what Cadsuane is trying to address. And laughing and crying, two of the most honest and fundemental of human reactions, is a relatively simplistic metaphor for this... something no amount of oath would stop her saying.

[algspkr]

I think her goal may be humility (something mose Aes Sedai need to learn as well) I think she intends to keep pushing him until he lashes out with the power.

 

But WH CoT and KoD seem to contradict this theory so I will go with manners (keep in mind she isn't going to teach all the Asha'man laughter and tears)

[cadsuane_2000]

I do not htink thatCadsuane is to teach laughter and tears in the literal sense.To be successful in his battle Rand must be able to use the power in all aspects...and he is woefully lacking in that.Each time he has demonstrated a new skill, it has been Lews Therin who has done it...or shown him how to do it.That man can do almost anything with the power and it is why he was THE most powerfulof the Aes Sedai, male or female of his generation...and still he fell.Cadsuane must teach Rand and the Asha Men to surrender to the power - yet control it.It will open them to new feats and to new skills.Already the ones who have bonded with sisters have done extraordinary things - just think of when Rand cleansed saidin with the help of Asha Men and sisters...then think again of what he can achieve if he ( and the men like him) learn to surrender to it -to ride its wave so to speak and delve fully into it.Cadsuane will teach him to deal with the losses and joys that will come and not turn to stone.Lews Therin turned to stone - pride got in the way and the backlash from the Dark Lord tainted the male half of the power.Jordan has alluded to the fact that people can do more and accomplish much together.Men and women can do that....that has been a constant point brought up in many of his answers concerning the Aes Sedai and the Age of Legends.

[Zardi]

I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting. Are you saying Cadsuane can teach Rand and the Asha'man anything about saidin? It's been stressed over and over how different the halves of the power are; opposite genders cannot teach each other anything about how to use it. By all accounts, if you surrender to saidin, it will consume you.

[Graendals favourite]

I think in a way manners is what she must teach, but perhaps more, that he is part of the world, not outside it. At the moment he is at a personal quest, to save the world which he will then depart. He increasingly cares less of the world I think, rather only about winning the Last Battle.

 

I reread Tarna's pov in KoD, there's striking similarities between Rand and Elaida, comparing Attending Elaida to Within the Stone, though he hasn't gone as far. Still, it is clear at that pov, that Egwene has already won the power struggle, and Elaida lost. Unless something extreme happens, there will inevitably be a power shift in the Tower.

 

Rand must not continue on the path of thinking he is fighting a personal war, in which he must make every move using the pieces that are other people. I think that road leads to only destruction, with no Dark One needed.

[Zardi]

In what way is he fighting a personal war? He works towards winning Tarmon Gaidon because that's the only way to save the world from the Dark One. He uses other people because he has to, but he still doesn't control everyone, and he does listen to people's advice occasionally. It isn't arrogance that keeps him from listening to people, it's mistrust, and I think that's very understandable.

 

Also, what similarities does he share with Elaida?

[Graendals favourite]

The mistrust is understandable, but he can't afford it. People will turn against him if he continues like that, the way they do against Elaida.

 

Compare, Rand-Elaida and Tarna-Rand's advisors. Cadsuane is the only one whom Rand really listens to when making decisions, and barely, while Elaida listens to no one. Further comparison, the High Lords-Sitters. Elaida thinks she's acting for the good, but pretty much everything she does is a blunder. Not so with Rand, but neither does he listen to suggestions, nor make the right decisions. It was the High Lords rushing toward the Stone that pushed the rebels into accepting Rand's offer. Rand didn't get everything his way, and like Elaida wanted to set a penance on the rebels, while threatening to hang his allies.

 

Rand acts the way he does, because there can be darkfriends and people scheming for personal advantage. And he mistrusts Verin and Nynaeve for doing something behind his back, which they do so in part because like Tarna to Elaida, because it has not been what he decided they should do and he would thus not approve.

 

It's very understandable what Rand does, but he is very close to being like Elaida, who is very close to being an evil dictator, if she isn't. If Rand trusts no one, he has no connection to the world, he must do whatever he thinks with the world to make it win the way he wants it to. This is harshly put, but I think this is a real danger.

[Luckers]

I agree with Graendal.

[Zardi]

The similarities with Elaida make more sense after your explanation. I can see them, I just don't want to because I like Rand. :roll: You may be right about what Cadsuane is going to teach him. It's along the same lines as what I think, as well. However, she hasn't been making much progress at all, and any she has made is attributed to the fact that Rand has a viewing showing him he needs her. I'm really interested in seeing how she's going to teach him anything at all.

 

And I think that's the shortest post I've ever seen from Luckers. :P

[seoman]

Rand is like a stone, he now barely feels phisicaly, and he is triying to close himself to any emotion, he is doing everything he think he must do to win TG, and nothing else counts for him, he is so conscious of his fate that he want no body near him to protect them of any harm... i think thats the problem, noone is strong enough to do everything by himself, there is more risk to burn you out the days passing, thats the lesson he must learn, humility(and it could be aplied to the asha´man)

[Luckers]

Oh yeah, im totally a man of few words. Like this one time i was telling this guy how much i hated to speak. Amazing argument that one, went on for hours.

 

 

Mostly though its because i already said my thoughts on the previous page... Graendal sort of hit the nail though, she described it better.

[cadsuane_2000]

It has been stressed and stressed again that so many of the things that we have seen achieved could not be done( cleansing of saidin,use of the giant sa angreal without dire repercussions,the wells that Nynaeve and Cadsuane have... and use,the making of cuendillar,the Bowl of Winds which is the largest well we have seen used...and which had both saidin and saidar to change the weather - reread that part- it is Elaine that notices it and the Asha Men that state that they cannot use the power there- it acts strangely,it is slippery.) Most important is the fact that every false dragon that Cadsuane gentled LIVED longer and more peacefully than others gentled by any other sister of any other ajah.She has knowledge learned when her warder was close to dying...and she met a woman who helped them.What was she taught...and when did she begin to collect those very special charms and trinkets of hers? This is a part we cannot predict based on impossibilities from previous books...because in each one an impossible thing has been done.In the Age of Legends there were things that were done by the Aes Sedai of that time, the Aiel and the Ogier.All of that is lost knowledge.Everyone seems to be looking for complicated scenarios for what Cadsuane will teach Rand... but she will teach him and all the Asha Men(and remember, Min says they will not like it).This is not about just Rand who is a part but of the whole.Jordan has said time and time again that if men and women worked together,people worked together,all manner of things can be done.Pride and ego are usually the obstacles to that.What Cadsuane will teach them is going to be very simple...and very devastating.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Which means .......?

[Zardi]

Ok...but what is your idea of what she'll teach him? You don't like our complicated scenarios, but you don't give one at all.