A couple thoughts on Rand's death

[Luckers]

Right. Other than the prophecy about his blood on the rocks washing away the shadow, his sacrifice for man's salvation...which I have never assumed or believed meant that he had to die. It could easily just be him bleeding. My point is I don't see the bodyswap happening without some greater purpose behind it. I think it will have to be something that he needs to do. Or hell, it could just happen by accident when they fight, who knows?

 

I actually don't think that the prophecy of blood on the rocks of shayol ghoul to refer to his death. There ARE, however, many prophecies which do very clearly speak of his death. And an actual death, not a fake death. I detailed that above, though, and whether you agree with my theory of the bodyswap or not one thing we do know as an absolute fact is that Rand must die. Actually die.

 

As for the rest, I don't much care if there is a deeper meaning to it or not. I don't even really like the bodyswap. I just think its the only viable theory which fulfils all the requirements set out by prophecy.

 

Rand is dying in one of the dreams/visions of the future, and a funeral is being prepapred. Various others point towards what I believe to be Rand ending up in Logains body. I started a thread on it today in the Gathering Storm section, the thread is called Logain and Rand. The quotes I used in there are some of the same ones Luckers uses but I interpret the end result differently based on the viewing of Logain stepping over Rands body that isnt really Rand; I theorize that it is Rand in Logains body, laughing because hes stepping over his own corpse, later mounting a black stone; the black slopes of Shayol Ghul.

 

The unfortunate distinction being Rand and Moridin have a link which is growing stronger--to the point that Rand feels if either moved a hairsbreadth they would touch.

 

No such thing exists for Logain.

 

I like your idea of Rand laughing while he steps over his own corpse. That would be pretty funny. But I also agree I think Moridin is the more likely suspect. I suppose my theory is less a bodyswap than a soul merging, and Moridin's True Power abilities being the need for Rand to do so. One thing I just thought of though, relating to Luckers theory...The fortelling of the three on a boat, and the dream about the same...These come after the swap. But in the dream they say they saw Rand on the boat. If he had swapped at that point wouldn't they see Moridin? Even if it was Rand inside?

 

Firstly, even if they did merge Rand would not be able to utilize the True Power. That can be done only with the Dark One's permission--each and every time. That we know from Ishamael having to ask for aid in tDR.

 

As for 'I'm on a boat' prophecies. The dreamwalkers see Rand on a boat with three women, and Nicola foretells three women on a boat with he who is dead, yet lives. Nothing says the three know that the man as Rand--dreams come with a sense of knowledge sometimes, like how Egwene knows the ravens mean the seanchan in the Tower dream. That dreamwalkers recognise 'he who is dead, yet lives' in the dreams as being clearly Rand means nothing.

[Titan Orion]

Quote

Rand is dying in one of the dreams/visions of the future, and a funeral is being prepapred. Various others point towards what I believe to be Rand ending up in Logains body. I started a thread on it today in the Gathering Storm section, the thread is called Logain and Rand. The quotes I used in there are some of the same ones Luckers uses but I interpret the end result differently based on the viewing of Logain stepping over Rands body that isnt really Rand; I theorize that it is Rand in Logains body, laughing because hes stepping over his own corpse, later mounting a black stone; the black slopes of Shayol Ghul.

 

The unfortunate distinction being Rand and Moridin have a link which is growing stronger--to the point that Rand feels if either moved a hairsbreadth they would touch

 

The fact that we can see a way doesnt make it the only one. The only reason I consider Logain to be a candidate is because he laughs as he steps over Rands corpse, and nothing other than the Moridin-Rand link points at it being Moridin. The thing is, I actually like the Moridin one a bit more, I have ranted and raved about the Dragon reborn-Nae'blis buildup, and I do think it would be great if it happened. But... Logain laughs when he steps over the fake Rand body. Judging that Logain doesnt laugh often, doesnt it seem strange that he laughs when stepping over Rands dead body like he knows its fake? Would Logain really laugh about it? The sense of humor fits Rand. "haha, Im stepping over my own corpse." That is definitely something Rand would laugh at.

[Luckers]

The only reason I consider Logain to be a candidate is because he laughs as he steps over Rands corpse, and nothing other than the Moridin-Rand link points at it being Moridin.

 

Thats a pretty huge division in basis. One is the facillitating function of a bodyswap, the other is a behavioural tick. We know Logain has glory in his future, him stepping over Rand seems to link to this, and laughing is a fairly normal way of expressing success.

 

 

[PerinGoldenEyes]

Every one was talking about Mat's death before and i dont think that it was when he was hanging from the tree,i think he just passed out then, i think it was when he stepped out of the gateway into Caemlyn when the traps where set. He was dead then and Aviendha was until Rand Used Balefire and brought them back.

 

And for Rand's death, i think he will die and go into the dream and while the battle rages on Nynaeve will go into the dream and rip him out the same way Birgitte was, Nynaeve was there and she would know how to do it as she has seen the weaves???.

 

As for Logain laughing, well he was laughing and waving when he was caught and in that cage when Rand first saw him in Caemlyn so maybe he is still a bit crazy or was laughing thinking it was up to him to save the world.

Just some thoughts i had, just signed up today and thought i would share them with you.

[Phariah]

Im not a big fan of the body swap i lean more toward Rand sharing a body w/LTT ( we find out LTT is more than a voice but LTT's soul, which would explain why Rand is so strong as a ta'veran he is really 2 Ta'veran  ::)and when Min saw Rand an another touch an become one it's Rand becoming whole  as LTT dies )

or

Rand having LTT an Mori in his head( while Rand an Mori fight  LTT joins the fight by using the link to attack Mori's mind an flows into  allowing Rand to gain the upper hand an kill Mori while putting LTT to rest)

 

ehh... just more speculation , guessing, having fun ;D

i just don't accept the body swap i don't feel its right ... eh just my $2(inflation sux it used only cost 2 cents  a few years ago :'( )

[Jillain Sanche]

Thank you to Luckers for the long post with so much textual evidence bearing on the clues we have had! Great post. I am with you--I don't much like the body swap idea, but it does fit the parameters.

 

MatsLuck, I will be interested to hear your theory which you stated varied slightly from Luckers'??

 

One way or another, RJ will probably surprise us with the how it all comes about, even if we begin to see some outline of how events may shape up.

 

I think PerinGoldenEyes makes a good point about Mat's death having happened at Caemlyn, rather than the hanging at Rhuidean!

 

As far as Logain, that image (stepping over Rand's body) might be taken in a metaphorical sense rather than a literal foretelling. I do believe, though I have no evidence in support, that he will be taking on Taim sooner or later.

 

[PerinGoldenEyes]

Another idea I've had for Rand's death is that LTT might fight and manage to take control ove Rands body as we have seen him try and do in the past.  Then he would be the one to die fighting then Rand could take back control, so because LTT is Rand from a past life the whole dies yet lives thing can take place.

Dunno maybe I'm thinking too much into this  ???  :-\

[angry_monkey]

There was a thread from about 1 1/2 months ago where a similar discussion arose.

 

Luckers said his theory there but i liked the sound of Bob T Dwarf's theory.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,43325.msg1139666.html#msg1139666

 

Have a read and tell me what you think.

 

I know it aint perfect (Like telling Alivia how to do a weave, this wouldn't work since she as the book has shown, a person channeling sadin can't teach someone how to channel saidar and so forth) but it is interesting

 

[Titan Orion]

The only reason I consider Logain to be a candidate is because he laughs as he steps over Rands corpse, and nothing other than the Moridin-Rand link points at it being Moridin.

 

Thats a pretty huge division in basis. One is the facillitating function of a bodyswap, the other is a behavioural tick. We know Logain has glory in his future, him stepping over Rand seems to link to this, and laughing is a fairly normal way of expressing success.

 

 

 

Im open to better interpretations of that particular vision if you have any Luckers.

[elmis]

Luckers, I'm also a fan of the bodyswap idea, and have been for a long time, but with some other changes.

 

Remember Min's viewing about Avi? She would have four babies with Rand, though there was something odd about them. Quadruplets are odd to begin with, but I don't think that is the odd here. My opinion, Avi will have the children with Rand - after he has swapped bodies with Moridin. Hence, they don't look like Rand and Avi kids, but they still are. :)

 

Also, I think the swap will happen before the last battle. Sometime before the last one, Moridin and Rand duke it out, and there is the swap. Alivia is there, and they kill Moridin in Rands body and hide the fact that Rand is still alive. He assumes the beggar facade for some reason (perhaps to hide from Shadar Haran - whom I think the last battle will be against).

 

In this period either Logain or Jahar Narishima takes over as the defacto champion of the forces of Light. Kinda unsure about this. Perhaps Narishima will take over, and Logain will just be the new M'hael? They both have viewings and/or prophecy claiming greatness. Logain has Min's viewings, and Rand all but set up Narishima to be the one to "the one who follows and claim the faithful blade" (don't remember that passage by heart), when he is sendt to collect Callandor from the Stone of Tear in tPoD.

 

Then perhaps Moiriane will help Rand get back in charge before the last battle, fulfilling that viewing too (he would fail without her) - as she perhaps knows or has learned some of this from her stay with the Finns.

 

Lots of if's and whatnot, but those are my thoughts on the matter at least. Time will tell, looking forward to the end of the series. :)

 

[Mr Ares]

(we find out LTT is more than a voice but LTT's soul, which would explain why Rand is so strong as a ta'veran he is really 2 Ta'veran)

No. LTT's soul was reborn as Rand. Their souls are one and the same. And souls aren't ta'veren, ta'veren are made by the Wheel when it needs them. Rand is only one ta'veren.

 

I think PerinGoldenEyes makes a good point about Mat's death having happened at Caemlyn, rather than the hanging at Rhuidean!

Well, we know he's right about that. If nothing else, RJ said Mat was hanging long enough to be nearly dead.

[Mandragoran]

“A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.” -- A Crown of Swords, Chapter 10

 

Question: Does this dream of Egwene's have to do with Rand?

 

 

[a pale tanned lover]

" 'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one.'" He blew a smoke ring, put another in the middle of it as it expanded. That was not the whole of it. He had asked how to win and survive. The last part of his answer had been 'To live, you must die.'

 

Yes he is going to die, but his living is linked to surviving not being reborn, and the best theory so far is the body swap although I personally hope it doesn't happen that way.

[Mr. Dragon]

Yes he is going to die, but his living is linked to surviving not being reborn

 

Not necessarily, if Rand got turned forcibly to the dark, it seems likely that the world would fall to the DO, if that happens, everyone will be killed including Rand, never to live again. It could occur that Rand seals the bore only to be left in a sticky situation, in which case, death may be the best option to ensure the survival of the dragon.

 

[Titan Orion]

A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. -- A Crown of Swords, Chapter 10

 

Question: Does this dream of Egwene's have to do with Rand?

 

 

 

Thats the idea, although of course it could be anyone

[Sayerin]

I would agree that his death is more symbolic than real.

New here, hi everyone!  :)

[Hybrid]

“A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.” -- A Crown of Swords, Chapter 10

 

Question: Does this dream of Egwene's have to do with Rand?

I don't think it does, but that's my personal opinion.

 

All of Egwene's other dreams mention Rand by name.  Now, it's possible that she couldn't see the face of the man clearly, but I'd have thought that the wording would be different.  Still, there is no character yet as important as Rand who is linked with death in the same way.

 

In addition, I feel like the time frame for this dream is off.  Again, just my interpretation, but I feel like Rand will be dying violently in battle - he certainly lives a violent life.  Whereas the man in the bed is dying, inevitably, but slowly enough that people have time to sing and build funeral pyres.  In addition, the funeral pyre is being built as the man is dying, but all the other prophecies dealing with Rand's body show it being displayed in a funeral bier after his death, real or faked.

 

Finally, there is the funeral pyre, which clashes with the funeral bier mentioned in all the other prophecies.  In all the other prophecies, Rand's body is lying in state, but here there is a funeral pyre being built.

 

Unless this prophecy has already been fulfilled (possibly when Rand was stabbed by Fain?), I don't see it applying to Rand at all, or at least not in an extended incident like the bodyswap.

 

That brings me to my second point.  Luckers, I congratulate you on your hard work in coming up with this theory, but I disagree with using every single prophecy in one theory.  I don't think it will be possible to tie them all in at once - I think some of them refer to different events and some of them have conflicting circumstances.  I'm working on my own theory atm.

[riigvroq]

the 'To live, you must die.' thing can, as i belive rand thinks at one point, that he wont live foreever. that could be that to win for the light he can't join the DO and become Nae'blis. i know this seems really simple but whats to say it has to be the most complex answear?

[Mandragoran]

Interesting thoughts, thanks all.

 

I've tried to connect the prophecies as well, if you'll bear with me.

---

Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die.

 

Two deaths for Rand. I'm presuming the second will be the final (hopefully natural) death long after the final battle. It could be wishful thinking, don't know but I'm going to deal with the first death that he has to come back from.

 

Rand is struggling with insanity. Lews Therin trying to grab saidin from him lost him a hand and it will only get worse. According to Semirhage, the descent into terminal insanity would be abrupt, that reintegration is a solution but even Graendal wasn't always successful at it. Graendal was known to have "treated disturbed minds Healing couldn't touch", so it won't be a traditional or direct healing.

 

The Aiel are in Arad Doman as is Dobraine. Ituralde has met Graendal in her disguise. The way things are headed, Rand might run into Graendal himself, perhaps even capture her if he can take her unawares(in disguise). She may well surrender freely once she is discovered - she has been described as cowardly that way. Rand needs to be cured or he'll die.

 

Possessions are tricky to deal with, there are a myriad occult beliefs connected with it. One way to get rid of a spirit in a possession is to appease it, to bring it peace. This is not a possession though, Lews Therin being from the same soul and Semirhage saying Rand is worse off because LTT is real. LTT can't be driven out so a reintegration of both personalities, a merging, may be the only course.

 

"Let me die forever." - Lews Therin

 

Lews Therin is torn up by guilt and what he wants most is to die, which might bring him closure. He remembers dying but he is not convinced he is entirely dead, as he's living through Rand and that isn't what he wants. He wants to die again and stay dead. If Lews Therin has to experience death again, then as they're sharing the same body, Rand has to physically die as well. Graendal's method might involve a sort of simulated death with the soul held in suspension. The risks being that the patient may not revive and die for real or that the merging may not work even with the patient's revival.

 

I doubt Rand would willingly leave his life in Graendal's hands even if she appears compliant. Rand needs someone else to perform the weave that will hold on to his soul while the merging works. The revival process might be somewhat similar to the Aiel ritual Elayne went through in making Aviendha her first sister, the result being she felt her first heartbeats in tandem with Aviendha's. The process might even have to be done by a single individual and not a circle because dealing with his soul might involve complications similar to bonding. It has to be done by someone with at least as much power as Graendal though if it has to have any chance of success. Even Nynaeve may not be enough.

 

“Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you.” - Min

“You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words.” - Rand

 

So I think it'll fall to Alivia to perform the task, risky as that is. Except I don't think it will work the way they want it to. I expect an attack by the Forsaken and darkfriend Asha'man and Black Ajah, maybe Demandred and Mesaana who come to spring Semirhage & Graendal free. Taim armed with Rand's angreal, arrives with his darkfriend Asha'man who stand revealed as new Dreadlords and attacks while Rand is clinically dead and they are vulnerable. The weave holding onto Rand's soul is dispelled, with Alivia getting killed by Taim. That's how Rand dies. Note that this section of the theory is not written in stone and could play out a hundred different ways and I'm using Taim as just an example.

 

Logain soon arrives to save the rest. Taim and his friends had wreaked damage and death in the Black Tower as they left there. Logain's faction fought them off and followed them here after interrogating one of the captured dreadlords. With Rand's death, Logain assumes leadership of the Black Tower. Pevara and her Red Ajah sisters who find themselves bonded to darkfriends, wander the grounds trying to help the victims.

 

“A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood, lightning around you, some striking at you, some coming out of you. You and I will meet again.” - Min

 

And so we have the Rand's funeral with Elayne, Min and Aviendha close by. I think Cadsuane, Nynaeve and others including Asha'man will set out to hunt Taim. They find him and with Cadsuane leading their linked circle, consume Taim in a massive amount of balefire.

 

“Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.” - Egwene's dream

 

This dream of Rand's funeral can be interpreted to say it occurs with Rand dead but then unravels like he was never there, with the pattern altered by balefire.

 

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

Everyone who experiences the day of Rand's death and funeral suddenly find themselves repeating it. And Alivia is alive, having not been killed by Taim who didn't exist during the attack. And she's still holding onto the soul in Rand.

 

“I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't.” - Min

 

Rand and LTT meet face to face in some part of the pattern where time works differently. They talk it over and Lews Therin decides it's Rand's time now. So they merge. Only on awakening, Rand is not exactly Rand anymore. Lews Therin is dead as a vocal and distinct entity but by merging with Rand, their personalities combined to become a changed Rand with all of Lews Therin's memories and experiences to deal with. He behaves almost like the old Rand but is now armed with the knowledge that conceives the plan for winning Tarmon Gaidon.

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." — Nicola Treehill, LOC 14

 

Everyone is amazed and frightened when Rand informs them of what happened and of his plan, they realize they now have Lews Therin himself to lead them in this war. A man who should be dead.

---

 

I did intend to write an outline stringing these foretellings together but ended up with specific situations to explain certain elements so you'll have to excuse the length.

 

 

[Darkholme]

What if "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" means the Aiel in someway. Because the wise ones always tried to get Rand to "know his blood" as they put it when trying to ensure the Aiel survive. Plus the remnant of a remnant will be saved. The splintering of the Aiel gives you one remnant, and a the death of many Aiel during a strike on Shayol Ghul could leave the final remanant.

[a pale tanned lover]

What if "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" means the Aiel in someway. Because the wise ones always tried to get Rand to "know his blood" as they put it when trying to ensure the Aiel survive. Plus the remnant of a remnant will be saved. The splintering of the Aiel gives you one remnant, and a the death of many Aiel during a strike on Shayol Ghul could leave the final remanant.

 

I think after we seen the Shaido go back to the waste this is going to be the remananat that remain "Aiel", the rest after the Last Battle will stay where they are as we have seen examples of them intermingling into different cultures already, so this prophecy seems to be at a conclusion already at the end of KOD

 

Also he who is dead yet lives could this not be Moridin?

[Mandragoran]

What if "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" means the Aiel in someway. Because the wise ones always tried to get Rand to "know his blood" as they put it when trying to ensure the Aiel survive. Plus the remnant of a remnant will be saved. The splintering of the Aiel gives you one remnant, and a the death of many Aiel during a strike on Shayol Ghul could leave the final remanant.

I considered Elayne's children, seeing as how the ruling line of Andor would be crucial to winning Tarmon Gaidon. But prophecy talks of "shedding", "staining" & "red on black" so I'm assuming it's literal blood and not metaphorical.

 

I think after we seen the Shaido go back to the waste this is going to be the remananat that remain "Aiel", the rest after the Last Battle will stay where they are as we have seen examples of them intermingling into different cultures already, so this prophecy seems to be at a conclusion already at the end of KOD

 

Also he who is dead yet lives could this not be Moridin?

I agree about the Shaido. I think the other Aiel will intermingle as da'shain again. Prophecy states, "He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf."

 

Moridin, not really. The Aiel dreamwalkers have a dream identical to Nicola's foretelling and tell Rand through Aviendha that the man on the boat with 3 women will be him. Off-topic but as for the boat itself, I think after defeating the DO Rand will break the world and flood the Blight with a new ocean.

 

 

[Hemis AlRhoid]

I have been thinking along the lines of what Titan proposes (I put forth something very similar in a thread on Logain). I think in the main battle Rand will be mortally wounded. I think Logain will sacrifice himself and swap bodies with Rand via Alivia (originally I put forth Nynaeve as I had forgotten Alivias prophecies). He dies in Rands body, thus allowing the Dragon to live and triumph, which gains him the glory Min has foretold. The viewing of Rand's face disintegrating like paper means that only his shell is destroyed, the soul is intact.

 

The problem I have with the Moridin theory is that I can't make the leap to thinking the crossed balefire streams eventually form a soul transference conduit. Balefire is a destructive force, it erases things from creation. The 2 balefire streams colliding have obviously set up a sort of resonance between the 2 originating threads, but again it doesn't seem likely to trigger a soul swap. If it did, what would anchor the soul? Couldn't they swap back and forth at will? It also does not fit with the Alivia angle very well. Anyone could help Rand track down his body and kill it. There's no specific reason why Alivia would be pivotal.

[mb]

Moridin, not really. The Aiel dreamwalkers have a dream identical to Nicola's foretelling and tell Rand through Aviendha that the man on the boat with 3 women will be him. Off-topic but as for the boat itself, I think after defeating the DO Rand will break the world and flood the Blight with a new ocean.

'3 in a boat' I take does not mean a literal boat, but that the 3 will be in the same situation (and that the situation would be unique to the 3).  Literal fulfillment of prophecy is rare in the books, especially with Dreams & Foretellings.

The fulfillment of this one would likely be one of these:

-each 3 being Rand's widow, maybe their wedding would be at the same moment

-each 3 being pregnant with his children at his death

 

[Mandragoran]

Moridin, not really. The Aiel dreamwalkers have a dream identical to Nicola's foretelling and tell Rand through Aviendha that the man on the boat with 3 women will be him. Off-topic but as for the boat itself, I think after defeating the DO Rand will break the world and flood the Blight with a new ocean.

'3 in a boat' I take does not mean a literal boat, but that the 3 will be in the same situation (and that the situation would be unique to the 3).  Literal fulfillment of prophecy is rare in the books, especially with Dreams & Foretellings.

The fulfillment of this one would likely be one of these:

-each 3 being Rand's widow, maybe their wedding would be at the same moment

-each 3 being pregnant with his children at his death

 

I don't know. Given that we have it coming from 2 sources(3 dreamwalkers makes it 4 people), boat as a metaphor for situation seems a bit unlikely. Had they only been dreams, I might have readily agreed but Foretellings usually turn out to be more literal than they first appear. The wording ought to have been "Three in the same boat" instead of "Three on the boat".