Moriane's Role in the New Books

[Padraic_Seebrr]

mb, Mordeth merging with Fain was an accident on his part. Mordeth meant to take control of Fain's body, but since the Dark One had distilled and messed around with Fain's soul, Mordeth ended up only having a part of himself in him. Isam and Luc I don't think we have enough information on how they ended up merging to draw any conclusion from it.

[mb]

Of Rand's current symptoms, only voice & memories have so far been attributed to madness.

Which symptoms have been attributed to merging?

possibly Lews Therin's ability to do drawings; possibly Lews Therin gaining control.

 

It being of same soul to me does not rule out the possibility of merging.

It just means we have no examples of a similar case to Rand's.

Slight chance of Fain's being similar.

linuxmafia speculated that the Mordeth Rand/Perrin/Mat met was a spirit and that the real Mordeth died.  Mordeth's appearance seems to support that (having no shadow); also Moiraine's speech later in the chapter (able to consume soul of a person he convinces to go to the wall of the city). http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.7_sl-fain/1.7.2_mshin-mashadar.html

Slight chance of Fain being a Mordeth reborn.

Unlikely, yes; but a chance.

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

In TGH, Moiraine says Fain had a run-in with Mordeth in Shadar Logoth, but since Fain was touched directly by the Dark One Mordeth was unable to possess him. So what resulted was "worse than Fain or Mordeth".

[Hybrid]

linuxmafia speculated that the Mordeth Rand/Perrin/Mat met was a spirit and that the real Mordeth died.  Mordeth's appearance seems to support that (having no shadow); also Moiraine's speech later in the chapter (able to consume soul of a person he convinces to go to the wall of the city). http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.7_sl-fain/1.7.2_mshin-mashadar.html

Slight chance of Fain being a Mordeth reborn.

Unlikely, yes; but a chance.

No chance at all, if you are considering Mordeth to be a "spirit."  The soul is the portion of being that is reborn, and if Mordeth is just a "spirit," or a soul, then he can't be reborn.

[dmanmiller34]

SO here is a thought. Not sure if it has been brought upbefore or not but the Finns grant 3 requests right? what if the reason that Morinanne is still alive and that Lanfeear was killed is that Lanfear arrogantly made her 3 requests and was killed (kinda like they did to Matt) But Morianne knew about this and Has only made 2 requests or even none at all. They are bound by thir own rules to have the 3 requests made. So if she has not made her 3rd one then she cannot yet pay the price for them. SO she is not a prisoner but a very Unwelcomed house guest. What do you think?

[Paladin]

I wish we knew more about the Finn's bargain.

depending on the agreement it could be likely.

 

another question is how old are the Finn Doorways? were they there during the war of the shadow? would Lanfear have known about them?

 

I think it is possible that Moiraine is trusting to the bargain to keep her safe until Mat & Thom ride to the rescue.

[OptimusPrime]

SO here is a thought. Not sure if it has been brought upbefore or not but the Finns grant 3 requests right? what if the reason that Morinanne is still alive and that Lanfeear was killed is that Lanfear arrogantly made her 3 requests and was killed (kinda like they did to Matt) But Morianne knew about this and Has only made 2 requests or even none at all. They are bound by thir own rules to have the 3 requests made. So if she has not made her 3rd one then she cannot yet pay the price for them. SO she is not a prisoner but a very Unwelcomed house guest. What do you think?

 

Sounds good. Ive been hoping all this time that the reason they kept her alive would be something like that, or some sort of manipulation on Moiraines part.

[Shard]

I don't know how much of a bargain she CAN have since she and Lanfear destroyed the Red Stone doorway. Given the fact that Lanfear is now Cyndane I don't think things bode well at all for Moraine. I'm just not sure they would be inclinde to make a bargain with Moraine since the doorway was destroyed and may just imprisoned her instead.

[DemandredFO]

The theory that Moiraine and Lanfear got wishes(or whatever) and the theory has been discussed and discredited.  They destroyed the doorway, I don't the Finns would like that.  As for lanfear dying it may have something to do with her being a Forsaken but we really don't know.  As for Moraine, I think she is still alive because of Mat but again we don't know.

[OptimusPrime]

The theory that Moiraine and Lanfear got wishes(or whatever) and the theory has been discussed and discredited.  They destroyed the doorway, I don't the Finns would like that.  As for lanfear dying it may have something to do with her being a Forsaken but we really don't know.  As for Moraine, I think she is still alive because of Mat but again we don't know.

 

Discredited by readers, yes. Nothing solid for or against though. Whats to say they werent expecting Moiraine and Lanfear? Considering they knew Mats fate, whats to say they didnt know Moiraines? After all, she had already been once, they might have seen her future the first time she came to them.

[primus]

Moiraine has an advantage with the Finn's in that she has an idea of her own future.  She wouldn't ask Thom and Mat to save her if she didn't think she had a chance of survival.  So she is most likely still alive.  Mat never gave her a good answer of what the Finn's were like other than they were cheaters, but that might have been enough warning for her not to make unnecessary requests from them.  That supports the idea that she didn't use up all of her requests. 

 

One thing we do know is that Lanfear did die.  She was reborn as Cyndane, but she is not the same.  Her strength in the power is less, and she has different talents.  The only way she is still recognizable as Lanfear is because of her speech patterns.  My guess is that Moiraine made a request to be the strongest channeler, and she and Lanfear swapped abilities.  That is why Cyndane is not recognized as Lanfear.  I do not like the idea that the Finn's grant wishes because they really don't create anything.  Mat's memories were stolen from other people who entered the Ter'angreal, and his fox head was probably taken by someone who entered at another time from another bargain.  So if Moiraine were to make a request to be the strongest channeler, the ability would not be granted, but taken from Lanfear and given to her.

 

On a similar discussion, I don't think the Finn's are watching through Mat's eyes.  All of Mat's other people's memories end when they die.  Mat already died, so it is reasonable to assume that the Finn's can't watch him.  Here's to being Ta'veren.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Moiraine has an advantage with the Finn's in that she has an idea of her own future.  She wouldn't ask Thom and Mat to save her if she didn't think she had a chance of survival.  So she is most likely still alive.  Mat never gave her a good answer of what the Finn's were like other than they were cheaters, but that might have been enough warning for her not to make unnecessary requests from them.  That supports the idea that she didn't use up all of her requests. 

 

One thing we do know is that Lanfear did die.  She was reborn as Cyndane, but she is not the same.  Her strength in the power is less, and she has different talents.  The only way she is still recognizable as Lanfear is because of her speech patterns.  My guess is that Moiraine made a request to be the strongest channeler, and she and Lanfear swapped abilities.  That is why Cyndane is not recognized as Lanfear.  I do not like the idea that the Finn's grant wishes because they really don't create anything.  Mat's memories were stolen from other people who entered the Ter'angreal, and his fox head was probably taken by someone who entered at another time from another bargain.  So if Moiraine were to make a request to be the strongest channeler, the ability would not be granted, but taken from Lanfear and given to her.

 

On a similar discussion, I don't think the Finn's are watching through Mat's eyes.  All of Mat's other people's memories end when they die.  Mat already died, so it is reasonable to assume that the Finn's can't watch him.  Here's to being Ta'veren.

 

Gotta say, I like this theory a lot. Much preferable to her being stilled :(. Hope it's true, though someone will probably in here to shut it down (Ares, Luckers, Majusju [sp?]).

 

As to the Finns not being able to see through his eyes. He did die, true, but the time of his death never technically happened. Since Rahvin killed him with lightning (the debris from lightning, w/e) and Rand balefired Rahvin (HARD.), Mat died, but at the same time he did not. Now I'm not trying to start an argument on whether this was Mat's "to die and live again" because RJ said it was, but I don't think it would interrupt the Finn's vision, because he was brought back to life before he died.

[primus]

Mat has died at least twice and possibly three times.  The last time he died was by a lightning bolt via Rahvin.  As you mentioned, he was brought back because balefire was used, so he technically never died.  He was also killed by the Finns when they hung him from the Tree of Life.  No channeling brought him back this time.  Rand used a version of CPR on him.  So this death happened, and that is the time when I believe the Finns stopped watching him.  This is just a theory though, and I could be wrong.  The third time Mat possibly died was when he was attacked by a dark hounds.  The dark hound was also killed by balefire, so we don't know if Mat was killed here as well, but it is suggested as he still sustained a wound even after the hound was wiped out of time. 

 

[Majsju]

Mat has died at least twice and possibly three times.  The last time he died was by a lightning bolt via Rahvin.  As you mentioned, he was brought back because balefire was used, so he technically never died.  He was also killed by the Finns when they hung him from the Tree of Life.  No channeling brought him back this time.  Rand used a version of CPR on him.  So this death happened, and that is the time when I believe the Finns stopped watching him.  This is just a theory though, and I could be wrong.  The third time Mat possibly died was when he was attacked by a dark hounds.  The dark hound was also killed by balefire, so we don't know if Mat was killed here as well, but it is suggested as he still sustained a wound even after the hound was wiped out of time. 

 

 

Mat did not die in finnland. If he had actually died, Rands homemade "cpr" would never have worked. (Confirmed by RJ)

He also did not die during the darkound incident. Had rand not balefired the dogs, Mat would have eventually died by the posion, but it never got that far. (Confirmed by the book)

 

Mat has died once, in Caemlyn. Brought back by Rand balefiring Rahvin, resulting in Mat having never actually died at all, as far as the Wheel knows.

[mb]

SO here is a thought. Not sure if it has been brought upbefore or not but the Finns grant 3 requests right? what if the reason that Morinanne is still alive and that Lanfeear was killed is that Lanfear arrogantly made her 3 requests and was killed (kinda like they did to Matt) But Morianne knew about this and Has only made 2 requests or even none at all. They are bound by thir own rules to have the 3 requests made. So if she has not made her 3rd one then she cannot yet pay the price for them. SO she is not a prisoner but a very Unwelcomed house guest. What do you think?

That would be just the Eelfinn. 'Finns' seem to refer to both races.

Not sure if the Eelfinn granted either of them any requests since Moiraine & Lanfear entered with fire which is against the rules.

The punishment for that seems to be imprisonment.  Lanfear's death was probably her own choice (like starving herself).

 

Mat has died at least twice and possibly three times.  The last time he died was by a lightning bolt via Rahvin.  As you mentioned, he was brought back because balefire was used, so he technically never died.  He was also killed by the Finns when they hung him from the Tree of Life.  No channeling brought him back this time.  Rand used a version of CPR on him.  So this death happened, and that is the time when I believe the Finns stopped watching him.  This is just a theory though, and I could be wrong.  The third time Mat possibly died was when he was attacked by a dark hounds.  The dark hound was also killed by balefire, so we don't know if Mat was killed here as well, but it is suggested as he still sustained a wound even after the hound was wiped out of time.

Actually, the Rahvin hunt was the only time Mat died.

From the FAQ site:

First off, according to Robert Jordan, Mat did not die at Rhuidean. He was near death when Rand revived him. The link should have been severed when he died at Caemlyn but did the balefire that brought him back also restore the link? We don't know and Robert Jordan is certainly not answering.

http://www.dragonmount.com/Faq/index.php?action=artikel&cat=12&id=37&artlang=en

I take Robert Jordan meant both times.

 

[OptimusPrime]

One thing we do know is that Lanfear did die.  She was reborn as Cyndane, but she is not the same.  Her strength in the power is less, and she has different talents.

 

Different talents? Whats that about?

[Mr Ares]

She was reborn as Cyndane, but she is not the same. Her strength in the power is less, and she has different talents.

Reduction in strength is the only difference.

My guess is that Moiraine made a request to be the strongest channeler, and she and Lanfear swapped abilities.

Considering Cyndane is still stronger than Graendal, and we are told women being stronger than Graendal is a rarity, then Moiraine being stronger than Graendal is quite impressive. Of course, it's utterly unsupported, and complete crap. Why would the Eelfinn even do it? The only thing we have seen that resulted in a similar loss of strength is severing followed by being Healed by a woman, as in the cases of Siuan and Leane. So this is the most likely answer - Lanfear (and Moiraine) were burnt out by the doorway ter'angreal, and Cyndane was subsequently Healed. Not gaining Moiraine's strength, which is just absurd.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

She was reborn as Cyndane, but she is not the same. Her strength in the power is less, and she has different talents.

Reduction in strength is the only difference.

My guess is that Moiraine made a request to be the strongest channeler, and she and Lanfear swapped abilities.

Considering Cyndane is still stronger than Graendal, and we are told women being stronger than Graendal is a rarity, then Moiraine being stronger than Graendal is quite impressive. Of course, it's utterly unsupported, and complete crap. Why would the Eelfinn even do it? The only thing we have seen that resulted in a similar loss of strength is severing followed by being Healed by a woman, as in the cases of Siuan and Leane. So this is the most likely answer - Lanfear (and Moiraine) were burnt out by the doorway ter'angreal, and Cyndane was subsequently Healed. Not gaining Moiraine's strength, which is just absurd.

 

Wouldn't they be stilled not burned out? When burned out you cannot sense the True Source anymore. When stilled you can sense it but not reach it.

[Mr Ares]

Wouldn't they be stilled not burned out? When burned out you cannot sense the True Source anymore. When stilled you can sense it but not reach it.

Well, we are told that ter'angreal can burn people out, but I don't think it matters all that much, as it's probably still Healable anyway.

[Davian93]

So this is the most likely answer - Lanfear (and Moiraine) were burnt out by the doorway ter'angreal, and Cyndane was subsequently Healed. Not gaining Moiraine's strength, which is just absurd.

 

I don't buy it.  Siuan/Leane state that they are at 1/3 their previous strength as a result of their healing.  Following that rule of thumb would mean that Lanfear/Cyndane lost 2/3 of her strength but was STILL stronger than Graendal?  Doesn't make sense.  There has to be another more legitimate explanation.

[fikkie77]

Strength in the power is related to both body and soul. The soul of Cyndane/Lanfear is the same, the body isn't. Probably Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar don't have the same strength as before. It might be less, but might as well be more.

[Davian93]

Strength in the power is related to both body and soul. The soul of Cyndane/Lanfear is the same, the body isn't. Probably Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar don't have the same strength as before. It might be less, but might as well be more.

 

First, consider how rare the ability to channel is in Randland...right around 1% right now.

 

Second, consider how much rarer it is to find a channeler of Forsaken level strength like Aginor, Ishy, and Balthamel.

 

Third, consider how hard it would be to find a body of equivalent channeling strength through Borderland raiding within a short window available for transmigration of those above 3.  Thus, its very unlikely that its the body that determines strength in Channeling.  Balthamel is a perfect example of this, "Her" body is able to channel but "He" is still a male soul and thus can channel Saidin at the same level from before his death.

 

I would propose that why it is necessary that a body be genetically predisposed to channeling (i.e. have the recessive Channeling gene from both parents), the actual strength the channeler is completely determined by the Soul. 

 

Furthermore, if you follow this line of logic, Lanfear lost strength for some other reason due to her exposure to the Finn.

[fikkie77]

I believe I saw a quote once from RJ about that channeling strenghth is related to both body and soul. Is there anyone who can confirm this?

[Davian93]

I believe I saw a quote once from RJ about that channeling strenghth is related to both body and soul. Is there anyone who can confirm this?

 

I believe the quote you are thinking of is that the ability to channel is related to both, not specifically their strength.  Balthamel suggests that the body merely needs to be able to channel but does not determine the strength of the channeler.

[fikkie77]

In which case I still disagree with you about blaming the Finns for reducing her strength. She might has well been partially shielded the way she shielded Asmodean by Moridin to humble her.