Moriane's Role in the New Books

[a pale tanned lover]

Rand has a certain type of madness that caused Lews Therins mind to resurface gradually. As a result of this....

 

That is your whole argument(assumption), dress it up anyway you want and say Semi said so. I'm not going to carry on anymore on this subject, because I think its going to start getting childish, you haven't changed my mind and I haven't changed yours and we keep going round in circles. I believe my previous posts have pointed out my thoughts on this issue. done, and done.

[OptimusPrime]

Rand has a certain type of madness that caused Lews Therins mind to resurface gradually. As a result of this....

 

That is your whole argument(assumption), dress it up anyway you want and say Semi said so. I'm not going to carry on anymore on this subject, because I think its going to start getting childish, you haven't changed my mind and I haven't changed yours and we keep going round in circles. I believe my previous posts have pointed out my thoughts on this issue. done, and done.

 

Agreed. You're just as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. I didnt mean any offense.

[Cherise]

So, how about that Moiraine, eh? She's a real looker.

 

If you think so, Thom! 

 

Is there anyone besides my husband who does not think Moiraine and Thom will be a couple?

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Nope. It's pretty clear they will be. I'd also like to thank Pale for putting an end to that senseless argument...

[OptimusPrime]

I think Rand will collapse when he sees Moiraine again.

[Mr Ares]

Rand has a certain type of madness that caused Lews Therins mind to resurface gradually. As a result of this....

That is your whole argument, dress it up anyway you want and say Semi said so.

Well, that is the theory fact.

[sebialex]

Rand has a certain type of madness that caused Lews Therins mind to resurface gradually. As a result of this....

That is your whole argument, dress it up anyway you want and say Semi said so.

Well, that is the theory fact.

 

I sense a lot of hate in you.

[Mr Ares]

Rand has a certain type of madness that caused Lews Therins mind to resurface gradually. As a result of this....

That is your whole argument, dress it up anyway you want and say Semi said so.

Well, that is the theory fact.

I sense a lot of hate in you.

True, but I'm so good looking it's hard to hold it against me.

[mb]

Rand has a certain type of madness that caused Lews Therins mind to resurface gradually. As a result of this....

That is your whole argument, dress it up anyway you want and say Semi said so.

Well, that is the theory fact.

Actually, only theory right now; not fact.

 

Cadsuane only mentioned voices.  Semirhage mentioned voices and implied memories, but does not bring up anything else.

 

Lews Therin gained control over Rand once in Knife of Dreams.  It seems doubtful that a Taint caused entity could gain control.

Machin Shin was/is Taint caused, and it just takes the souls of its victims; not control them.  It did not take Fain's soul, but did not control him either.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Ok same as the Mats luck thing, the discussion goes on so I jump back in.  ;D

 

Rand has a certain type of madness that caused Lews Therins mind to resurface gradually. As a result of this....

That is your whole argument, dress it up anyway you want and say Semi said so.

Well, that is the theory fact.

Actually, only theory right now; not fact.

 

Cadsuane only mentioned voices.  Semirhage mentioned voices and implied memories, but does not bring up anything else.

 

Lews Therin gained control over Rand once in Knife of Dreams.  It seems doubtful that a Taint caused entity could gain control.

Machin Shin was/is Taint caused, and it just takes the souls of its victims; not control them.  It did not take Fain's soul, but did not control him either.

 

 

Cadsuane knows of current day male channeler madness. Graendals knowledge goes a long way beyond that, considering that she could remedy things the Power couldnt Heal. She is a far more reliable source than anyone. Cadsuane can burn because none of the voices in the heads of men she studied will ahve supplied Age of Legends knowledge. If they did, she would have noticed.

 

Lews Therin isnt an entity any more than Rand, Lews Therins mind has resurfaced. So when you look at Rand, you have Rand and Lews Therin looking back at you. Imagine a persons mind is connected to their soul and body; now, Rand has two active minds in his body and soul, which is why Lews Therin can grab the Source.

 

Its easy to just keep saying "No no no" but really what it looks like is "No, I didnt think of it. I didnt think of anything."

[Hybrid]

Lews Therin gained control over Rand once in Knife of Dreams.  It seems doubtful that a Taint caused entity could gain control.

My bold.

 

Why is that?

[Mr Ares]

Well, that is the theory fact.

Actually, only theory right now; not fact.

Humour, mb. Not everything is meant literally.

[Phariah]

Rand is not insane or mad  ;D

Rand is possessed either a failed or taveren altered one  ;)

i mean RJ even states that Rand and LTT are 2 aspects/personalities of the same soul

also all 3 taveren are victims of some sort of possession: Rand + LTT ; Perrin + wolfspirit ( if he ever forgets he is a man he will become a wolf he holds that at bay by will or taveren or whatever ) ; Matt + memories / finns ( he basically has how ever many other peoples memories implanted in his mind as well as being a walking camcorder for the finns apparently )

we have Thom's foreshadowing in EotW page 278 "the dead can be reborn, or take a living body,.."

than u have Fain LoC page 571 "he could feel Al'thor, could point right to him, this close.Al'thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt. There was a differance lately, a differance that had come suddenly, almost as if someone had taken a partial possession of Al'thor, and in doing so pushed away a part of Fain's own possession."

which times well with when LTT forced himself on Rand when Taim gave him the seal, the first time LTT ever did that

than u have Min's vision of 2 men becoming one it fits well with that, the 2 aspects of the Dragon's soul becoming one

in a way i think the connection w/ LTT acted as a buffer to keep the taint from making Rand go nutters

Rand doesn't seem to be insane to me just over worked and stressed, maybe a tad bit too much into multi-tasking

we have seen AOL and modern terms being different: severing = stilling, webs - weaves, so maybe what they took as a form of insanity was possession which is what Greandal is talking about, so when Semi says it she is telling the truth, to her he is insane, but in modern terms he is possessed.

and what is termed as re-integration is some procedure or weave  that allows the casting out (exorcism) of the lesser aspect (LTT) and re-integrating the main aspect (Rand).

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Fain LoC page 571 "he could feel Al'thor, could point right to him, this close.Al'thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt. There was a differance lately, a differance that had come suddenly, almost as if someone had taken a partial possession of Al'thor, and in doing so pushed away a part of Fain's own possession."

 

Rand was bonded by Alanna not long before then, thats what Fain could feel.

[lordofsoup]

quick question, its been a while.  Did Moriane know that she was Rand's aunt?  and when she does come back, how is that going to change the situation, if at all?

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Well she's his distant aunt, so I doubt it would matter. Also knowing Moirane she's known all along, or at least for awhile >.>...

 

And why couldn't a Taint-caused entity take control? People with that multiple personality disease (which I would call insanity) let their "other sides" take control sometimes don't they? Now make no mistake, Lew Therin is a real person inside Rand's head, but this doesn't make Rand any less insane.

[BKVMC]

i can picture Moirane to  be  similiar to  gandalf when she returns she  has always  reminded me of  him in a round about way from the  beginning.and wouldnt she be galad elaynes and  gawyns blood relative not rands his daddy wasnt  the damodred :P she never seemed to  treat elayne any  different than  anyone else  and she knew she was her aunt.

[Deadsy]

Ya, they aren't related by blood. And like BK said, she had interactions with Elayne in the Shadow Rising and there was no familiarity there.

[OptimusPrime]

Minor TGS spoiler.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason said one of the main plots is Rand going deeper into depression and insanity. Rand is insane.

[a pale tanned lover]

Jason said one of the main plots is Rand going deeper into depression and insanity. Rand is insane.

So what Semi said worked and Rand thinks he is insane and forces people away,becoming more harder and paranoid, leading him deeper into self-deluded insanity. Good ploy by the Shadow.

 

(This is what i was saying in my previous posts before Jason's review, but my view is my opinion and enough has been said about this already, I can't wait to take up this debate again after TGS ;D)

 

Moiraine was Aes Sedai before Elayne was born and they tend to try cutting their ties to their former lifes. There is a blood connection but then again most of the nobles in Andor have some form of blood connection.

[Mr Ares]

Rand is not insane or mad  ;D

Rand is possessed either a failed or taveren altered one  ;)

i mean RJ even states that Rand and LTT are 2 aspects/personalities of the same soul

also all 3 taveren are victims of some sort of possession: Rand + LTT ; Perrin + wolfspirit ( if he ever forgets he is a man he will become a wolf he holds that at bay by will or taveren or whatever ) ; Matt + memories / finns ( he basically has how ever many other peoples memories implanted in his mind as well as being a walking camcorder for the finns apparently )

we have Thom's foreshadowing in EotW page 278 "the dead can be reborn, or take a living body,.."

than u have Fain LoC page 571 "he could feel Al'thor, could point right to him, this close.Al'thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt. There was a differance lately, a differance that had come suddenly, almost as if someone had taken a partial possession of Al'thor, and in doing so pushed away a part of Fain's own possession."

which times well with when LTT forced himself on Rand when Taim gave him the seal, the first time LTT ever did that

than u have Min's vision of 2 men becoming one it fits well with that, the 2 aspects of the Dragon's soul becoming one

in a way i think the connection w/ LTT acted as a buffer to keep the taint from making Rand go nutters

Rand doesn't seem to be insane to me just over worked and stressed, maybe a tad bit too much into multi-tasking

we have seen AOL and modern terms being different: severing = stilling, webs - weaves, so maybe what they took as a form of insanity was possession which is what Greandal is talking about, so when Semi says it she is telling the truth, to her he is insane, but in modern terms he is possessed.

and what is termed as re-integration is some procedure or weave  that allows the casting out (exorcism) of the lesser aspect (LTT) and re-integrating the main aspect (Rand).

I have this funny feeling of deja vu, like I've shot this theory down before...

[mb]

Lews Therin gained control over Rand once in Knife of Dreams.  It seems doubtful that a Taint caused entity could gain control.

My bold.

 

Why is that?

Reason: Machin Shin (a Taint caused entity) does not control anybody.

That is a paraphrase of my comments directly after the quote.

 

Cadsuane knows of current day male channeler madness. Graendals knowledge goes a long way beyond that, considering that she could remedy things the Power couldnt Heal. She is a far more reliable source than anyone. Cadsuane can burn because none of the voices in the heads of men she studied will ahve supplied Age of Legends knowledge. If they did, she would have noticed.

Graendal might be the more reliable source on madness/insanity in general, yet I would consider Cadsuane the more reliable source (of saidar channelers) on the Taint since Cadsuane has been around more Taint victims than any other saidar channeler.

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

mb, you don't seem to realize that it doesn't matter what caused the madness (taint, stress, evil people constantly trying to murder you and your loved ones, pick your favorite). The Taint is not a form of madness. So therefore, the Taint does not matter past the fact that it played a part in making him insane. So Graendal is really a more reliable source on it, since it is madness, not Taint.

 

For Machin Shin not taking control of anyone, what about all the souls that it made join it? All the people who are caught by Machin Shin their souls become part of it remember? So I would say it "controls" them and their souls.

[Mr Ares]

Reason: Machin Shin (a Taint caused entity) does not control anybody.

Machin Shin is not LTT. The two are very different. You can't say because the one can't do it, something very different also can't.

 

Graendal might be the more reliable source on madness/insanity in general, yet I would consider Cadsuane the more reliable source (of saidar channelers) on the Taint since Cadsuane has been around more Taint victims than any other saidar channeler.

The taint is the cause, not the effect. And Graendal knows more about the effect, if not the cause.

[Red Hand Man]

Ok, this is a terribly long thread and I'm probably going to re-state something that's already been said, but...  We have clues that Moiraine passed Lan's bond on to Myrelle as she was going into the Eelfinn doorway.  The clues being that Myrelle knew it was going to come (she mentioned something in the scene where she was caught with him) and also we have the scene at Vandene and Adelas' retreat in the borderlands during The Great Hunt.

 

So, the circumstantial evidence about Moiraine being severed/stilled/burned out (because of the lack of warder bond) should be ruled out completely as evidence.  Simply because Lan immediately felt compelled to go to Myrelle.

 

Edit:

Just took the time to look up the quotes from The Great Hunt (props to www.encylopaedia-wot.org for making it easy to find the chapter).

 

From Chapter 22 of The Great Hunt:

 

For the hundredth time - or so it seemed to her - she considered the words to use.  "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another."  He stared at her, silent.  "When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately.  I do not want you to be surprised by it."

 

Given that this scene happened well before Moiraine went through the doorframe in Tear and the rings in Rhuidean, she could not possibly know that she would be held/killed/cut off from the source in FinNland.  So, it was just a precaution, it turns out a pretty good one for Nynaeve.  So given this, we cannot say that she has been severed/stilled

 

Another, small point:  There was debate early in the thread (well, it seemed to be a couple people were unsure about it and Mr. Ares bluntly stated his POV) about the difference between severing/stilling/burned out.

 

From all of the various material I've found on the web (i.e. - items that can be validated by the author), they are defined as follows:

 

Stilling - a conscious and willful "sentence" where a specific "weave" or "web" is placed upon a female channeler that "permanently" cuts her off from the source (e.g. Siuan Sanche).  This was called severing in the Age of Legends.

 

Burned Out - a result from drawing too much of the one power into yourself without appropriate buffers where you cannot channel the power, it seems that you can however still feel it (e.g. Setalle Anan).

 

Please note these are all my point of view.