Did he, or didn't he?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ishamael is a lying liar who lies.

 

SO -

 

Did Lews Therin Telamon kill his family, or is that just a line of hooey that Ishamael fed him to inflict pain when LTT was in no state to refute him?

 

Discuss.

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

He killed his family. Even though Ishy is a "lying liar who lies", LTT was completely mad before he was healed. I believe he even vaguely remembers killing some of his kin in the moments he was sane. Even the LTT in Rand's head believes he killed them.

[Mr. Dragon]

The issue with being such a well known liar is that even when your telling the truth, people still assume your lying.

[fikkie77]

What I always wondered is how people in the Third Age know that he killed his family (he was known as the Kinslayer) and that he created Dragonmount when he died. Ishamael could have told others the first, but nobody witnessed the latter...

[erickm001]

Interesting question. I've never considered it before. If, suppose, LTT did not kill his family and Rand/LTT found out, what effect would that have on Rand/LTT?

[Majsju]

So Ishy did not just Heal LTT from the madness, he also managed to give LTT memories of having done the killing... ::)

[mb]

From Lews Therin's memory, he killed many people; a number were his children, and another certainly his wife.  Though there might be a chance that a number of his offspring might have escaped and/or were sent away before the event happened, and they hiding somewhere; perhaps producing some more offspring.

 

A number of Two Rivers folk witnessed Perrin's family die, yet one of Perrin's cousins (supposedly) show up later.

 

[bob bobato]

What I always wondered is how people in the Third Age know that he killed his family (he was known as the Kinslayer) and that he created Dragonmount when he died. Ishamael could have told others the first, but nobody witnessed the latter...

I think Lews Therin's kinslaying must have happened at the very beginning of the Breaking, before civilization had really begun to collapse, when there was still communication between groups of people. Probably survivors managed to reach the AoL version of a newspaper, which spread the story.

But I'm not sure that the prologue's version agrees with the later books. I mean, I don't think it would be too difficult to assume that Lews Therin's Palace was in Paaran Disen, and when he created Dragonmount, the entire city was destroyed? Then how is it that in tSR, one of Rand's ancestors is in the city, at a time when the Breaking should be well underway and Paaran Disen long gone?

 

[JenLenaMom]

LTT Traveled from his home in his despair to a place near a river that ran straight. That's where he killed himself and created Dragonmount, not in the city.

[Mcpatrick]

Lews Therin went mad right as soon he finished sealing the bore. He went and started killing all his kin. I assume that that took him a little while, and people were able to find out about it. When he traveled to the Erinin, he checked to see that nobody was within 200 miles. I assume that the area had been depopulated during the war of power.

 

 

 

The other male channelers didn't go mad immediately, they succumbed to the taint like people in Rand's time. The breaking didn't start in earnest for another 5 years, when all the other thousands of male Aes Sedai started their rampage.

[Thor]

from the prologue, even Ishamael was very surprised (impressed?) by the carnage/devastation LTT has caused.

 

So no, he didn't lie.

[Titan Orion]

I need something clearing up people, I might have missed something somewhere. I have a question about the lying liar who lies comment.

 

IIRC, RJ said that when he was asked about Ishamaels comments to Rand on the was between Light and Shadow being fought over and over. Yet as Elan Morin he was a famous philosopher, who went over to the Shadow because of his theory on this very subject, Elan Morin believing that the Light couldnt possibly win every single time, him thinking it the logical decision to join the side that only needs one victory for the war to end.

 

Im not sure whether or not RJ was saying "dont believe anything Ishamael says," but rather "dont base any theories on Ishamaels words alone." Look at Herid Fel for an example of someone else who follows the same kind of theory. Another expert.

 

Thoughts please

[Majsju]

RJs comment about Ishy beinga lying liar who lies was a response to a question regarding Ishy claiming that the Dragons soul in some turnings had been turned to the Shadow.

[Titan Orion]

Ah. Thought I must have missed something. Cheers chief

[Builder]

RJs comment about Ishy beinga lying liar who lies was a response to a question regarding Ishy claiming that the Dragons soul in some turnings had been turned to the Shadow.

 

That's a lie right? The Dragon has never been turned over to the Shadow before?

[fikkie77]

No of course not, though they will keep on trying. If the Dragon would be turned to the shadow, there would be no stopping the DO to break out completely and destroy the Wheel. So, if that had happened in the past, the Wheel would already have been destroyed.

[Titan Orion]

No of course not, though they will keep on trying. If the Dragon would be turned to the shadow, there would be no stopping the DO to break out completely and destroy the Wheel. So, if that had happened in the past, the Wheel would already have been destroyed.

 

Unless of course the Dragon who was turned was then killed without the Dark One being able to catch his soul

[Safia al-Maaz]

I thought there was a point where the books said that the Dragon has been turned before, but that didn't mean the Light lost the war.  Many of the wars ended in ties rather than wins because of that. The Light hasn't won every time, but it's never lost.  Correct?

[fikkie77]

Yes, but it was said by Ishamael, a liar. This is one of their lies, because if the Dragon had been turned over, the war had definitely been won by the Shadow, to the destruction of the Wheel.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I see that some are claiming that Ishamael "healed" LTT and he remembered having killed his family.

 

I'll refer you to Lucker's post in the thread on relative strength where he states that it has been shown that you are not able to heal mental problems with the Power.

 

We have seen no evidence that it is possible to do anything with True Power that one cannot do with One Power.  If that is true, and Luckers is correct, then Ishy did not "heal" anything.  It is also unclear whether Ishy was using TP on that occasion.

 

So, when Ishy claimed to be healing LTT he must have been doing something else instead.  The question is what?

[dholm]

Ishamael says that it's a shame one of the female Aes Sedai aren't there at the moment. He adds that they would only be able to give him a few lucid moments. Considering that Lews Therin is insane at that point, there's really not much purpose in lying about what he's doing.

 

Also, Lews Therin DID become sane, at least for as long as it took him to die. Obviously he was Healed.

[Majsju]

 

 

Also, Lews Therin DID become sane, at least for as long as it took him to die. Obviously he was Healed.

 

Or maybe Ishy Compelled LTT to believe he was Healed, and then gave him this batch of false memories!

 

;D

[Titan Orion]

I believe he was Healed. I dont think RJ would have put twists in the prologue in the first book. It seemed to me like Elan Morin wanted to see Lews Therin realise he had just killed his whole family. If you dont believe he Healed him like he said you may as well not believe that Lews Therin killed his family, just because it came from Ishamaels mouth.

 

He lies, yes, but Im pretty sure he doesnt lie about absolutely everything when hes talking to the good guys

[dholm]

 

 

Also, Lews Therin DID become sane, at least for as long as it took him to die. Obviously he was Healed.

 

Or maybe Ishy Compelled LTT to believe he was Healed, and then gave him this batch of false memories!

 

;D

Which would have done jack to an insane person.

[fikkie77]

I believe he was Healed. I dont think RJ would have put twists in the prologue in the first book. It seemed to me like Elan Morin wanted to see Lews Therin realise he had just killed his whole family. If you dont believe he Healed him like he said you may as well not believe that Lews Therin killed his family, just because it came from Ishamaels mouth.

 

He lies, yes, but Im pretty sure he doesnt lie about absolutely everything when hes talking to the good guys

Lews Therin was healed for sure. Evidence: an insane Lews Therin wouldn't have looked for an inhabited area for committing suicide.