Who is stronger?

Yiceman · June 21, 2009

Here's something I figure after re-reading TSR. I think Asmodean is as strong as Lanfear.

From The Shadow Rising, Ch. 37, when Asmodean first talks to Mat, disguised as Natael:

"'Is this what you are meant to be doing?'

Mat jumped in spite of himself at the sound of Keille's voice, hard under its mellifluous tones. The woman put him on edge, and now she looked ready to rip his heart out, and the gleeman's as well.

Natael scrambled to his feet. 'This young man has just been telling me the most fascinating things about Rhuidean. You will not believe it.'

'We are not here for Rhuidean.' The words came out as sharp as her hatchet of a nose. At least she was only glaring at Natael now.'

'I tell you--'

'You tell me nothing.'

'Do not try to silence me!'

Ignoring Mat, they moved off down the wagons, arguing in low voices, gesticulating fiercly. Keille seemed to have been browbeaten into a grim silence by the time they dissappeared into her wagon."

This is not the only time Asmodean and Lanfear argue in this book. It mentions them bickering constantly. What does this prove? Well, how many other times do we actually see this kind of outright fighting between Forsaken? In the meetings, they're always more subtle, fearing that the others around them will take advatange and pick sides if a fight breaks out. The only other instances of one-on-one we've seen are Graendal and Sammael's meetings, in which she treads lightly, knowing he's stronger than her.

But here we have two Forsaken out in the middle of nowhere, no possibility for alliances. So the only answer I find for their behavior is that they are on equal ground. If one of them was stronger than the other, I don't see him or her having the guts to fight like that all the time. In the paragraph quoted, Asmodean even "browbeats" Lanfear into silence. How many people can do that, unless she feared actually attacking them? I know some people might say she needed him alive and willing to teach Rand, but that doesn't stop her from trying to kill Asmodean at the end of the book when all he does is use her proper name.

Speaking of the end of that book, we have the only real, undisputed and direct example of power meeting power, no holds barred slug-fest in Asmodean vs Rand ( except perhaps Nynaeve vs Moggy).

When they both grab the ter'angreal, they throw everything they have at each other, power vs power with no outside variables. And Rand is losing. He gets tired faster than Asmo, stops going on the offensive, and just tries to hold on. Until he uses the fat man angreal and cuts the Dark One's strings off Asmo, he was fighting an uphill battle.

So as of TSR, Rand was just slightly weaker than Asmodean I would say. In the next book, when Rand faces off against Lanfear, it's more or less the same. Nearly equal, with Lanfear having the slight edge. Even though Rand was using non-leathal attacks, if he was stronger to any significance he could have fought her off.

Lanfear was using a tiny angreal in this fight too. So if Rand's this close to Asmodean and Lanfear in these two books, I would say he didn't get a jump in strength in-between. Lanfear's angreal gave her an edge, when she otherwise would have been slightly weaker or equal to Rand (him being roughly the same as Asmodean at this point).

IF Asmodean is the weakest male, and I sort of doubt he is (c'mon, his fight against Rand is probably the most impressive performance of any Forsaken), then he equals the strongest female.

And if Rand is that much stronger than Nynaeve, then Asmo/Lanfear should be just as much stronger than Moghedien.

That's just my jumbled reasoning, do with it what you will.

Gentled Ben · June 22, 2009

I've always assumed that the other Forsaken disregard Asmodean because he's craven, but I had noticed that he's rather bold with Lanfear too, when others tend to treat her with more caution, and he did give Rand one heckuva fight. My guess is that he's a pretty wicked channeler that few want to duel with, but that he's such a spineless, lickspittle little weasel that even other self-serving villains despise and belittle him.

I really liked him, though! He cracked me up with his passive--aggressive harp playing and his dry, cynical wit. Even totally chumped with that shield on him, he pushed Rand's buttons again and again, seeing exactly how much he could get away with. No...I suspect that when he's not handcuffed like that, he's dangerous. Even if he is the weakest, he must have something going for him in order to have survived among a bunch of opportunistic sharks like the other Forsaken; he must not be mistaken for a goldfish.

Yiceman · June 22, 2009

That's what I figured too. He was one of The Chosen, yet he wasn't a top notch general and his governing skills weren't particularly evil. According to the book living under him wasn't so bad. The book says he "did take part in a number of battles" so I would say that maybe his direct combat skills with the power were enough to make him one of the Chosen.

Nightstrike · June 22, 2009

Asmo reached the ter'angreal just a little before Rand. They were pretty much the same strength at the time. But after some of Asmo's teaching Rand thought "I thought I was strong before...". He gained A LOT of strength after Rhuidean. Meaning he's A LOT stronger (end-potential) than Asmo ever was.

Asmo speaking up against Lanfear doesn't say much. Lanny said she had to haul him out of the hole he was hiding in. A fight Lanny/Asmo amidst the caravan would have exposed them both. To darkfriends, as well as people who walk in the Light. That was why he could speak up against her then.

Dashiva was described as strong, but Rand insulted him (unknowingly) by saying that Dashiva's Gateways would "take too much time" for them. Meaning they are so much smaller that it was noticeable. I think we were even given some measures of Dashiva's Gateways.

When Dashiva held saidin "to overflowing", Rand never remarked about his super-powered strength. If something had been there to take particular notice of, then it would have been noticed.

Mr Ares · June 22, 2009

Not according to the BWB. So 1 to 56 for Ishy & Aginor.

Still not so ridiculously unlikely that it could only happen either by some miracle or an intentional desire to rank all the Chosen in strength order.

Semirhage/Mesaana gives us 1 to 2.
Unsupported.
Supported. I'm not the only one to say so.

Guesswork a lot of people accept as fact is still guesswork. Semi/Mesaana are not conclusively at the same strength, so their placement next to one another cannot be taken as support for your theory.

Moggy below Graendal gives us 1 to 2.
Unsupported.

Clearly, you think Graendal is likely to be the second strongest female Forsaken.

I think it within the realms of possibility, but do not accept it as fact. Moghedien could be stronger. I will give further consideration to your belated evidence before passing judgement.

Odds for a random order is AT LEAST 1 to 1 120.
One in eight chance for the men, one in five for the women. And both of those having reasons other than strength to be featured most prominently.
No, you're mistaken. ;)

About what? 1 in 56 for the men I am willing to grant, but I see nothing to rule out there being reasons other than strength to place them in that order.

Not wrong according to those characters who wrote the material.
And you know better than them, despite no evidence to the contrary.
WoT readers don't only have the BWB to read, thank the Light.

No, but no evidence to the contrary makes that a redundant argument. Other materials have nothing relevant to say on the matter.

How about 1 to 1 120?

What about it?

We all know how weak Asmo is, compared to Rand's potential.

No, we don't. We know he stands below Rand's potential, but not by how much.

None other than him has been descibed as that weak.

Comments on strength are pretty thin on the ground. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It certainly seems reasonable that he is the weakest male Forsaken.

It is also reasonable that he isn't. We cannot place him.

Graendal as second strongest among them seems very likely. Moghedien as weakest also seems very likely.

Both are possible, but "very likely" massively overstates your case.

So, you can say with any certainty that Aginor wasn't scared of Demandred because of Demandred's OP strength?

Yes. Someone being stronger than you is not reason enough to be scared of them.

Or, even better, that super-powered Aginor could pass off as Dashiva right in front of Rand and others?

Again, yes.

They didn't discover the super-powered man among their ranks (how did he do it?).

It is possible to partially hide strength in the Power, at least for women.

You question everything else until the most absurd extremes, and yet you DO NOT question the BWB.

You do not accept anything it says as correct. There are indeed some errors, but I do not consider them to constitute the majority of the book. In this case, I see no reason to doubt its statements.

With regards to Chosen strength, it should be noted that there are precisely three unambiguous, explicit statements about where people stand in relation to others. Ishamael being the strongest, Lanfear being the second strongest and strongest woman, and Aginor being second strongest man and close to Lanfear. And two of them have been questioned in this thread on the flimsiesst of grounds. Why not disregard the statements about Ishamael as well (although in the past people have been willing to put him below Rand rather than equal to him). Sod it, Moghedien is the strongest Chosen, bar none, followed by Be'lal. Why not?

Unless he specifically mentions Rahvin

He mentioned all of them. A statement that they are inclined to lie to themselves coupled with statements about Lanfear being second strongest means we can rule out Rahvin's thoughts on the matter. It is quite reasonable. Refusing to accept that isn't.

Thor · June 22, 2009

Asmo reached the ter'angreal just a little before Rand. They were pretty much the same strength at the time. But after some of Asmo's teaching Rand thought "I thought I was strong before...". He gained A LOT of strength after Rhuidean. Meaning he's A LOT stronger (end-potential) than Asmo ever was.

Asmo speaking up against Lanfear doesn't say much. Lanny said she had to haul him out of the hole he was hiding in. A fight Lanny/Asmo amidst the caravan would have exposed them both. To darkfriends, as well as people who walk in the Light. That was why he could speak up against her then.

Dashiva was described as strong, but Rand insulted him (unknowingly) by saying that Dashiva's Gateways would "take too much time" for them. Meaning they are so much smaller that it was noticeable. I think we were even given some measures of Dashiva's Gateways.

When Dashiva held saidin "to overflowing", Rand never remarked about his super-powered strength. If something had been there to take particular notice of, then it would have been noticed.

just want to comment though, although stronger people generally form larger gateways, that is not always the case. there is also the factor of natural talent involved as well.

it coudl be that dashiva/aginor just totally suck at making gateways.

General Cauthon · June 22, 2009

Or just didn't make as large as he could, to prevent being exposed.

Nightstrike · June 22, 2009

Not wrong according to those characters who wrote the material.
And you know better than them, despite no evidence to the contrary.
WoT readers don't only have the BWB to read, thank the Light.
No, but no evidence to the contrary makes that a redundant argument. Other materials have nothing relevant to say on the matter.

The thing is that you accept it as a fact. When we go to planet Ares, we can not accept ANYTHING as a fact. Especially not when we KNOW that it can be false. So, on planet Ares, we DO NOT know that Lanfear is the second strongest chosen, OR that Aginor is the second strongest man. The BWB could be wrong, so we mustn't accept ANYTHING as fact.

How about 1 to 1 120?
What about it?
We all know how weak Asmo is, compared to Rand's potential.
No, we don't. We know he stands below Rand's potential, but not by how much.
None other than him has been descibed as that weak.
Comments on strength are pretty thin on the ground. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
It certainly seems reasonable that he is the weakest male Forsaken.
It is also reasonable that he isn't. We cannot place him.

We know that he IS NOT "almost" as strong. He is far below that. Several other characters are "almost" as strong (that includes Aginor).

So, you can say with any certainty that Aginor wasn't scared of Demandred because of Demandred's OP strength?
Yes. Someone being stronger than you is not reason enough to be scared of them.

Prove it.

Or, even better, that super-powered Aginor could pass off as Dashiva right in front of Rand and others?
Again, yes.
They didn't discover the super-powered man among their ranks (how did he do it?).
It is possible to partially hide strength in the Power, at least for women.

Yes, but not to fake strain - "to overflowing". Aginor was insulted when Rand said that his Gateways would "take too much time".

You question everything else until the most absurd extremes, and yet you DO NOT question the BWB.
You do not accept anything it says as correct. There are indeed some errors, but I do not consider them to constitute the majority of the book. In this case, I see no reason to doubt its statements.

But you never consider accepting anything if there is the slightest chance you could twist it into meaning something else or, even better, if you could claim a character is wrong in some way. Why accepting some things, but not others? The only thing the inhabitants on planet Ares should consider (regarding OP lists) is that Rand may be the strongest. Everything else is completely worthless. One thing, and one thing only. That's the extent of it all. Your logic is flawed, since you're not consistent.

I'm glad I don't live on planet Ares.

dholm · June 22, 2009

Unless he specifically mentions Rahvin
He mentioned all of them. A statement that they are inclined to lie to themselves coupled with statements about Lanfear being second strongest means we can rule out Rahvin's thoughts on the matter. It is quite reasonable. Refusing to accept that isn't.

Don't be ridiculous. A general statement does not count as mentioning all of them, period.

Mr Ares · June 23, 2009

Not wrong according to those characters who wrote the material.
And you know better than them, despite no evidence to the contrary.
WoT readers don't only have the BWB to read, thank the Light.
No, but no evidence to the contrary makes that a redundant argument. Other materials have nothing relevant to say on the matter.

The thing is that you accept it as a fact.

Because there is nothing to contradict it. Unlike the inhabitants of planet Nightstrike, we here on planet Ares like evidence. Evidence without contradiction is better then just disagreeing with that evidence with nothing to back you up.

The BWB could be wrong

But most of it is right, so we should accept it unless we have good reason to suspect that in this case it is wrong.

We know that he IS NOT "almost" as strong. He is far below that. Several other characters are "almost" as strong (that includes Aginor).

Several others aren't "almost" as strong. Therefore, we cannot place Asmo.

So, you can say with any certainty that Aginor wasn't scared of Demandred because of Demandred's OP strength?
Yes. Someone being stronger than you is not reason enough to be scared of them.
Prove it.

Why don't you prove that it is. That strength alone, nothing else, is reason to be scared. Especially when we know that skill and knowledge can beat strength even in the face of large gaps in strength.

Yes, but not to fake strain - "to overflowing".

How do you know that?

"Where had the Spider found a girl that much stronger than her?", right after thinking that Cyndane was just a little stronger than herself [Graendal]. That means Graendal is stronger than Moghedien.

Graendal doesn't think Cyndane is only a little stronger than her, she merely thinks that she is stronger. Further, we have RJ's comment about not being able to trust them in this respect. Therefore we cannot place Graendal above Moghedien.

I'm also glad you don't live on planet Ares. It's a much nicer place for it.

Unless he specifically mentions Rahvin
He mentioned all of them. A statement that they are inclined to lie to themselves coupled with statements about Lanfear being second strongest means we can rule out Rahvin's thoughts on the matter. It is quite reasonable. Refusing to accept that isn't.
Don't be ridiculous. A general statement does not count as mentioning all of them, period.

None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are, even when you are inside their heads. Don’t take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.

RJ specifically covers all the Chosen as being unreliable in this respect.

Nightstrike · June 23, 2009

The thing is that you accept it as a fact.
Because there is nothing to contradict it. Unlike the inhabitants of planet Nightstrike, we here on planet Ares like evidence. Evidence without contradiction is better then just disagreeing with that evidence with nothing to back you up.

There are things to contradict it. As you yourself said:..."Guesswork a lot of people accept as fact is still guesswork." The BWB accepts that it could be wrong, so on planet Ares NOTHING dating 3 000 years back is a fact.

The BWB could be wrong
But most of it is right, so we should accept it unless we have good reason to suspect that in this case it is wrong.

Why should we accept this, when we can't accept other things? We don't KNOW that it is correct, so it's not a fact on planet Ares. We DO have reason to expect that it is wrong, so the more reason not to accept it as a fact.

We know that he IS NOT "almost" as strong. He is far below that. Several other characters are "almost" as strong (that includes Aginor).
Several others aren't "almost" as strong. Therefore, we cannot place Asmo.

On planet Ares, they can't place anything.

So, you can say with any certainty that Aginor wasn't scared of Demandred because of Demandred's OP strength?
Yes. Someone being stronger than you is not reason enough to be scared of them.
Prove it.
Why don't you prove that it is. That strength alone, nothing else, is reason to be scared. Especially when we know that skill and knowledge can beat strength even in the face of large gaps in strength.

Because you've dismissed everything else, and now you claim that OP strength is no reason for Aginor to defer to Demandred. You've claimed that it is A FACT that Aginor is the second strongest. On planet Ares, they can't know that. They might even claim that he could just as well be number 4, number 5 or number 6.

Yes, but not to fake strain - "to overflowing".
How do you know that?

No, you're right. On planet Ares, they can't possibly know ANYTHING. They should most certainly not accept anything as A FACT purely on the basis that we don't have anything that contradicts it (SARCASM!).

"Where had the Spider found a girl that much stronger than her?", right after thinking that Cyndane was just a little stronger than herself [Graendal]. That means Graendal is stronger than Moghedien.
Graendal doesn't think Cyndane is only a little stronger than her, she merely thinks that she is stronger. Further, we have RJ's comment about not being able to trust them in this respect. Therefore we cannot place Graendal above Moghedien.

Some of what you just said is just plain wrong. Aside from that, only thing that people on planet Ares can consider is that Rand may be the strongest. The rest is worthless. Even your own conclusions on strength placements. Nothing can be known that is of any significance.

Mr Ares · June 23, 2009

There are things to contradict it.

No, some people make guesses but there is no actual evidence to contradict that presented in the BWB.

Why should we accept this, when we can't accept other things?

It is clearly stated. Unless and until we have good reason to disbelieve it, why should we dismiss something?

You've claimed that it is A FACT that Aginor is the second strongest.

Because it is, and stated as such. To overturn that, provide evidence. You have yet to do so.

They might even claim that he could just as well be number 4, number 5 or number 6.

But the evidence does not support such placements. Looking only at the facts provided, we are told Aginor is the second strongest man, and no real reason to dismiss that. Therefore, there is no good reson for us not to accept it as fact, provided we remain willing to change our position in light of new facts. For example, if there was a scene at the Last Battle, where Rand faces Demandred and and Aginor v.3 and says "Demandred held more, far more, than the other man", then we could say the information contained in the BWB on this matter was wrong. At the moment, we have nothing to suggest that it is, therefore it would be foolish to disegard one of the few facts we have in the placement of the Chosen based on nothing.

Now, planet Ares is a big fan of facts. Nice solid facts. And there are very few of them in relation to Chosen strength. We are told Ishamael is at the top, followed by Lanfear, followed by Aginor. That's it. No more. Planet Nightstrike is a big fan of disregarding facts in favour of personal preference and wishful thinking. Hence the disagreement - I follow the path of reason, you abandon the chains of reason in favour of absurd conclusions. Lini killed Asmo! Perrin is a bunnyrabbitbrother! Faile is Demandred! Fun, but not helpful to furthering our understanding of the series. My approach is useful.

Nightstrike · June 23, 2009

Why should we accept this, when we can't accept other things?
It is clearly stated. Unless and until we have good reason to disbelieve it, why should we dismiss something?

We've already agreed to dismiss everything else. Why shouldn't we dismiss something that can't be proven?

You've claimed that it is A FACT that Aginor is the second strongest.
Because it is, and stated as such. To overturn that, provide evidence. You have yet to do so.

Prove that he is. Prove it. Why should we trust any dubious statements, dating from an apocalyptic time 3 000 years back?

They might even claim that he could just as well be number 4, number 5 or number 6.
But the evidence does not support such placements.

What evidence? Haven't we agreed to question everything? Nothing that can't be proven with 100% certainty is any use what so ever. So, go ahead and prove it. With your own standards of how to prove things.

Looking only at the facts provided, we are told Aginor is the second strongest man, and no real reason to dismiss that.

So, you don't trust the BWB? Wait, that's where you got the information in the first place... Now you're contradicting yourself (again).

Therefore, there is no good reson for us not to accept it as fact, provided we remain willing to change our position in light of new facts.

New facts from the series tells us a different story than the BWB. Nothing confirms the BWB, but rather it actually goes against the BWB.

For example, if there was a scene at the Last Battle, where Rand faces Demandred and and Aginor v.3 and says "Demandred held more, far more, than the other man", then we could say the information contained in the BWB on this matter was wrong. At the moment, we have nothing to suggest that it is, therefore it would be foolish to disegard one of the few facts we have in the placement of the Chosen based on nothing.

Useless speculation, but if such a situation ever came up, I think planet Ares would find a way to question it.

Now, planet Ares is a big fan of facts. Nice solid facts. And there are very few of them in relation to Chosen strength. We are told Ishamael is at the top, followed by Lanfear, followed by Aginor. That's it. No more. Planet Nightstrike is a big fan of disregarding facts in favour of personal preference and wishful thinking. Hence the disagreement - I follow the path of reason, you abandon the chains of reason in favour of absurd conclusions. Lini killed Asmo! Perrin is a bunnyrabbitbrother! Faile is Demandred! Fun, but not helpful to furthering our understanding of the series. My approach is useful.

But where are your facts? The BWB is your main source of information, so all your "facts" really are not 100% certain proof on planet Ares. You should follow your own philosophy, and start proving your own claims for a change.

Justen Diablos · June 23, 2009

It's more likely that Aginor was simply not good at making gateways, since we know that not all channeling is raw strength, rather it depends on certain peoples abilities with the power. Semirhage is certainly a far better healer than Ishamael, and if ishy tried to heal someone and failed and then Semirhage came in and succeeded would we assume that she's a stronger channeler than the Nae'blis? No, as we already have knowledge that she's a great healer, a fact mentioned in the BWB actually, which seems to follow true in the series. So Aginor can't make a big gateway, Demandred can't (last I checked) create Trollocs and Drakgtar and Gholam's oh my. Aginor can, which I tend to think is pretty impressive.

Also I assume the forsaken were listed in the best writer's order.

Ishamael. Top billing because he is Nae'blis, even when he's not Nae'blis he's Nae'blis.

Aginor Second to appear in the books, along with old Eval Rammen, listed before him probably because he has a more interesting story (he makes shadospawn) or because he's stronger (Sure, all things being equal I'll give you the caveat of strength in this one case)

Balthamel (second we see along with Aginor, listed after Aggy because Aginor is stronger and does cooler stuff like making Shadowspawn (see above))

Sammael. Listed next because he was Rand's current challenge, the most interesting Forsaken among those not released into the world in the first book, Or, just because the author had a really neat segway, Most of the other Forsaken were trapped deeply enough to remain untouched and undamaged by time, though it made them a little slower to escape than Aginor and Balthamel. They lacked even scars, except for the one worn by the Chosen called Sammael BWB

Rahvin. Because he so liked the segway format from earlier he/she continued Sammael hated political intrigue, but Rahvin much preferred such diplomacy and manipulation to open conflict.

Be'lal, segways like a David Letterman show, with less shots at Republicans While Rahvin preferred manipulation, the Forsaken known as Be'lal, the Envious, was a master of it, to the point he was often known as the Netweaver. goes on to talk about Samael and Rhavin and Be'lal surpassing both in their various talents, so it helps that the reader was introduced to those two first...n' stuff.

Demandred, listed next because at this point no one really cared about Demandred. When the BWB was created he was fairly ambiguous as to where he was, who he was, and all that so the author kind of threw him in near the end. Sammael is referenced, so it's good Sammael's story came before Demmy's.

Asmodean, listed last because he was barely a Forsaken at the point this book was made. He'd already been captured and used by Rand, and to our PoV he was more of a hero than anything else. At the least a likeable character, which is why the BWB goes out of it's way to place him last and mention that Asmo's were the least cruel of any of the Forsaken regimes, because they don't want us to lose our attachment with him.

Now I may be way off, but I do think it's much easier to chalk up Forsaken listings to the best way to tell their story. RJ was a master storyteller, and though he didn't exclusively write this book he did have a hand in it. So he probably knew all the forsaken's backstory and simply placed them inside this 'chapter' for the best possible story flow. Even though it's a guide, it's also a book, and can be read cover to cover, making sense and being interesting the entire way through. I could go through the Women's chapter but it's more of the same. Lanfear, because she's central, Greandal, because of the female Forsaken she's had the most POV's and story time (up to that point), Semirhage, because after you mention Graendal the flow of the story naturally rolls to Semi, Graendal heals the mind beyond compare, and Semi is an equally skilled healer of the body. Mesaana next because unlike the previous two she turned to the DO because she was not the best in profession (goodness this author's good at Segways, I should quote this one too but I'm tiredish). And Moghedian last because she was all captured n' broken and we saw her very weak so she was the least impressive as a bad girl at the time. Wouldn't want to cut in right after the frightful Lanfear, throw a browbeaten Moggy in and then have to get the reader to reinvest in being afraid of the evil Semirhage would we? It would be counterproductive to the story.

Nightstrike · June 23, 2009

Everything is a possibility. :) Maybe Demandred is stronger than Ishy, Aginor is below Be'lal, and Be'lal above Lanfear. Everything works when all evidence is questioned well enough. ;)

Mr Ares · June 23, 2009

We've already agreed to dismiss everything else. Why shouldn't we dismiss something that can't be proven?

We've agreed? The only thing I have agreed to dismiss is that which is unsupported by evidence. I do not dismiss things that are supported by evidence but are not yet proven.

Prove that he is. Prove it. Why should we trust any dubious statements, dating from an apocalyptic time 3 000 years back?

The statements are quite clear. Unless and until you can provide a good reason for us not to trust a work that, while not without a few errors, is largely correct, then it is absurd to dismiss it. When you find something to contradict the BWB, come back and I'll be willing to talk. Until you have something, all you can do is spout hot air.

Looking only at the facts provided, we are told Aginor is the second strongest man, and no real reason to dismiss that.
So, you don't trust the BWB? Wait, that's where you got the information in the first place... Now you're contradicting yourself (again).

Where is the contradiction? I trust the BWB, unless I am given reason to accept a given statement in it as incorrect. Aginor's strength is stated quite clearly, and no reason has been put forward as to why those statements should be ignored for your flights of fancy. Facts say he is second strongest man. Your fantasies alone say he isn't.

Therefore, there is no good reson for us not to accept it as fact, provided we remain willing to change our position in light of new facts.

New facts from the series tells us a different story than the BWB. Nothing confirms the BWB, but rather it actually goes against the BWB.

What facts contradict that point? None so far presented.

But where are your facts?

In the books, big white ones included. Where are yours? In your own head. You have nothing to say the information provided by the BWB on this is wrong, save only your own desire that it should be. No facts. Nothing from the books. Nothing. Now go away, and come back when you actually have something to say. All you're doing now is embarassing yourself.

Nightstrike · June 23, 2009

Remains to be proven

Mr Ares, prove this with your own standards of how to prove things.

Mr Ares

Women Forsaken and their Aes Sedai defeaters? Reply #84 on: April 17, 2009, 11:07:38 AM »

1. Ishamael
2. Lanfear

3. Aginor

4. Demandred (at best)

etc.

BWB says:..."possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael". Planet Ares can't prove this list.

Mr Ares