Who is stronger?

[Luckers]

It is also more dangerous. If Rahvin is wrong and acts on it, he's toast. If Moghedien is wrong and acts on it, Nynaeve is. There's a clear difference.

 

Which is a function of rationality. By RJ's statement this issue utterly ignores rationality.

 

Besides you'll note that Rahvin stops Sammael--whatever he may choose to believe, he actively avoids a confrontation with Lanfear.

 

It's simply logical. And let me point out something first: Military brilliance likely has absolutely nothing to do with a third name. Most people didn't even know the word for 'war' prior to the War of the Power; it was only remembered by scholars. I seriously doubt they had much time for honoring people with third names during the War.

 

Strength in the One Power is a tool just as philosophical and political acumen is. It might not mean as much, but I seriously doubt it meant nothing. Why would it? There's no logical reason.

 

Boys in a schoolyard posture. They stretch their muscles. They push down their peers.

 

Its why they are boys. Adults who do that are named barbarians.

 

You claim strength in the One Power is a tool toward the third name. I ask you again to provide proof. NOTHING indicates any of these utilised, or were able to utilize their strength. Strength has, to date, played no part.

 

So yes... please provide at least some form of basis.

 

Of course not, but when we have to consider one aspect in and of itself, we have to ignore everything else. We do this by stating, "all other things being equal..."

 

Again, it's simply following the idea to its logical conclusion. The goal -- earning a third name -- is generic enough that almost any tool you possess can help you achieve it.

 

Again, please provide proof for that comment. It seems to be completely wrong based on what we know--we know of no person who has gained the third name because of their strength--even remotely.

 

 

 

 

[dholm]

It is also more dangerous. If Rahvin is wrong and acts on it, he's toast. If Moghedien is wrong and acts on it, Nynaeve is. There's a clear difference.

 

Which is a function of rationality. By RJ's statement this issue utterly ignores rationality.

 

Besides you'll note that Rahvin stops Sammael--whatever he may choose to believe, he actively avoids a confrontation with Lanfear.

He also notes that if he DID challenge Lanfear, she would link with Graendal -- and a circle of Lanfear and Graendal could likely destroy both Sammael and Rahvin, even if both are stronger than Lanfear individually.

 

It's simply logical. And let me point out something first: Military brilliance likely has absolutely nothing to do with a third name. Most people didn't even know the word for 'war' prior to the War of the Power; it was only remembered by scholars. I seriously doubt they had much time for honoring people with third names during the War.

 

Strength in the One Power is a tool just as philosophical and political acumen is. It might not mean as much, but I seriously doubt it meant nothing. Why would it? There's no logical reason.

 

Boys in a schoolyard posture. They stretch their muscles. They push down their peers.

 

Its why they are boys. Adults who do that are named barbarians.

 

You claim strength in the One Power is a tool toward the third name. I ask you again to provide proof. NOTHING indicates any of these utilised, or were able to utilize their strength. Strength has, to date, played no part.

 

So yes... please provide at least some form of basis.

Logic is not a basis?

 

Sigh.

 

You do not know that strength has played no part. We don't know all the characters from the Age of Legends with a third name. We don't even know what all of the characters who had third names did to earn them -- not conclusively.

 

Of course not, but when we have to consider one aspect in and of itself, we have to ignore everything else. We do this by stating, "all other things being equal..."

 

Again, it's simply following the idea to its logical conclusion. The goal -- earning a third name -- is generic enough that almost any tool you possess can help you achieve it.

 

Again, please provide proof for that comment. It seems to be completely wrong based on what we know--we know of no person who has gained the third name because of their strength--even remotely.

We don't have enough evidence to say it one way or another based only on the characters from the books. Logic, however, dictates that, all other things being equal, strength in the One Power should help with fame.

 

How, I couldn't say. Maybe they serve by opening giant gateways (the size of which is linked to the strength of the channeler). I cannot perceive of what they would have use for in the Age of Legends, but I'm sure that they would have found a use for strong channelers.

[Nightstrike]

Yet you still maintain that it cannot be a random order, despite admitting that some of it is and providing no reason why it cannot be random, besides the odds of it coming up like that if random which are exactly the same as any other combination.

Yes, I maintain that it cannot be a random order. The odds for a random order is too high. As simple as that.

 

But, that's the point. What makes this order more likely/unlikely than any other given order? What makes any other order any more likely/unlikely than this order?

Nothing. We have one order triumphing over a number of equally unlikely orders. It has to be one of them, there are only a finite number of possibilities, so why not this one? The odds of this are the same as any other. So there is no point.

The odds for a random order is too high. That means that it isn't a random order.

 

I do read what you write, and more fool me for doing so because it is almost invariably shite. According to you, the list is according to strength.

Attempted. It is attempted to be. By the character/characters who provided it.

 

So, according to you, Moggy and Asmo are the weakest of their respective genders. But we have no real reason to put them at the bottom.

I did NOT put Moggy at the bottom in the comparison I did in this thread. I removed Asmo from the "odds" (despite him being quite a lot weaker than Rand's potential, and despite the DO's remarks). They are not even in the odds I mentioned. We have no reason to expect them NOT to be the weakest of their genders. Again, try reading what I write.

 

So the only real reason to put them at the bottom is that the list is according to strength, and the only real reason the list is according to strength is because they are the weakest.

::)

 

You have absolutely no reason to say the list is according to strength, nor that any placement on it is according to strength. And then you admit many of them are placed randomly anyway, so in a large part it isn't according to strength.

I've not said that many are placed randomly. Scribes (among others) make mistakes. Information could be wrong. For the most part, I think the list fits strength fairly well.

 

At best, two thirds of the list is, but even then we have no reason to believe it is in most cases. We place Lanfear in relation to the other women, Graendal in relation to Lanfear, Moghedien in relation to Graendal, but not Mesaana or Semirhage in relation to anyone. To base a theory on that is ludicrous.

I've not placed Mesaana or Semirhage in relation to anyone else (in this thread). Besides them being the same strength and them being below Lanfear. Try reading what I write.

 

The number we can't place doesn't count either way. They speak neither for or against anything. How do you know the order should be Ishamael, Aginor, Demandred? You, who claim we can't know anything. "Utterly absurd", as you say.

Well, if Demandred is little short of LTT, yet Aginor is second, he cannot be above third, nor can he be below unless you have reason to place any of the others above him. Given the evidence we have, he should be. There is nothing to say otherwise. Now, either talk sense or shut up, which with regards to this theory means no longer talking about it either way. You have nothing to support you, not one word, not one line. Nothing.

It says "almost", which leaves room for interpretation. Some of the others, with unspecified strengths, could possibly be just as strong as Demandred. Perhaps even stronger. Of course, we readers know a little more facts. It's funny how you categorically reject anything written in the books about strengths, but still completely accept statements in the BWB. The same book that starts off with an explanation that some things will be wrong in it. I'm thinking about Aginor as "second strongest".

 

 

 

 

 

[Mcpatrick]

LTT and Demandred had their 3rd name before the drilling of the bore. They were both "renaissance men", with LTT being a bit better.

 

 

It is pretty obvious that the earning of the 3rd name comes from being exceptionally good at serving. Being an amazing psychiatrist, doctor, philosopher, renaissance man or lawyer would earn them their 3rd name. Strength in the power, or even the ability to use the power would be mostly irrelevant, except for the fact that having triple the lifespan would give more time to hone their skills, and that research into the use of the One Power would be impossible without the ability to use it.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on June 18, 2009, 11:00:02 AM

Quote

It is also more dangerous. If Rahvin is wrong and acts on it, he's toast. If Moghedien is wrong and acts on it, Nynaeve is. There's a clear difference.

 

Which is a function of rationality. By RJ's statement this issue utterly ignores rationality.

 

Besides you'll note that Rahvin stops Sammael--whatever he may choose to believe, he actively avoids a confrontation with Lanfear.

 

 

He also notes that if he DID challenge Lanfear, she would link with Graendal -- and a circle of Lanfear and Graendal could likely destroy both Sammael and Rahvin, even if both are stronger than Lanfear individually.

 

Your point being? Even an idiot couldn't lie to himself about being stronger than Lanfear and Graendal linked. This speaks nothing to the issue.

 

Logic is not a basis?

 

Sigh.

 

You do not know that strength has played no part. We don't know all the characters from the Age of Legends with a third name. We don't even know what all of the characters who had third names did to earn them -- not conclusively.

 

Ah, yes, the old fallback. You said that strength must play its part. You were quite firm on the issue--but when pushed to provide a basis for that you fall back on 'well, you don't know [insert specific point here]'

 

And logic is a perfectly good basis, my friend.

 

We don't have enough evidence to say it one way or another based only on the characters from the books. Logic, however, dictates that, all other things being equal, strength in the One Power should help with fame.

 

How, I couldn't say. Maybe they serve by opening giant gateways (the size of which is linked to the strength of the channeler). I cannot perceive of what they would have use for in the Age of Legends, but I'm sure that they would have found a use for strong channelers.

 

You don't actually know what logic is, do you? I mean its ok, I studied logic for nearly two years and I still don't really know what it is. I'm not good enough at math.

 

I can tell you what its not. Logic is not 'well, i think this, and its not completely disprovable, so there'. You've got nothing to back your idea. In point of fact everything we actually do know speaks against it.

 

Or do you disagree with my presentation of how those you listed got the third name. If so, please, actually address it.

 

It is pretty obvious that the earning of the 3rd name comes from being exceptionally good at serving. Being an amazing psychiatrist, doctor, philosopher, renaissance man or lawyer would earn them their 3rd name. Strength in the power, or even the ability to use the power would be mostly irrelevant, except for the fact that having triple the lifespan would give more time to hone their skills, and that research into the use of the One Power would be impossible without the ability to use it.

 

Strength in the power might indeed help if what you are doing requires strength in the power--not nessasarily, not in an Age where linking or angreal would be easy to access--but its possible.

 

But it'd be specific, not generic, so yes i pretty much agree with all of the above.

[dholm]

Your point being? Even an idiot couldn't lie to himself about being stronger than Lanfear and Graendal linked. This speaks nothing to the issue.

My point being that Rahvin stops Sammael not because he fears a confrontation with Lanfear -- which he very well might, despite his claim -- but because he fears a confrontation with the two female Chosen linked.

 

Ah, yes, the old fallback. You said that strength must play its part. You were quite firm on the issue--but when pushed to provide a basis for that you fall back on 'well, you don't know [insert specific point here]'

 

And logic is a perfectly good basis, my friend.

I never insisted that strength must play its part -- I insisted that it's possible, and to dismiss that possibility as non-existant is not the best course. I acknowledged that it is not evidence, that it is a terrible indication, but I also maintained that the possibility is there. Perhaps I worded it poorly.

 

You don't actually know what logic is, do you? I mean its ok, I studied logic for nearly two years and I still don't really know what it is. I'm not good enough at math.

 

I can tell you what its not. Logic is not 'well, i think this, and its not completely disprovable, so there'. You've got nothing to back your idea. In point of fact everything we actually do know speaks against it.

 

Or do you disagree with my presentation of how those you listed got the third name. If so, please, actually address it.

Nothing we know speaks against it. The lack of proof for a position is not proof against said position.

 

As for my grasp of logic, I consider it adequate.

 

Your claims are just that: Claims. I agree about Graendal, as well as Lews Therin, Ishamael and Demandred, and about Semirhage. I have seen proof of how they earned their third names, or at least enough proof to agree with your conclusion. But Asmodean? He was a child prodigy, but his promise was never fulfilled. That hardly seems cause for a third name. Be'lal? Sammael? They were generals for the forces of Light who defected to the Shadow. That's all I know of their accomplishments during the War of Power. If you have something else, please provide the proof.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:04:55 AM

Your point being? Even an idiot couldn't lie to himself about being stronger than Lanfear and Graendal linked. This speaks nothing to the issue.

 

My point being that Rahvin stops Sammael not because he fears a confrontation with Lanfear -- which he very well might, despite his claim -- but because he fears a confrontation with the two female Chosen linked.

 

Yes, but that speaks to my point--it speaks nothing to your idea that Rahvin might be stronger than Lanfear.

 

I guess I'm just a bit confused as to why you brought this up.

 

As for my grasp of logic, I consider it adequate.

 

I'm sure you do. I don't have a true grasp of logic--not a true one, despite my efforts to gain one--so who am I to question this.

[dholm]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:04:55 AM

Your point being? Even an idiot couldn't lie to himself about being stronger than Lanfear and Graendal linked. This speaks nothing to the issue.

 

My point being that Rahvin stops Sammael not because he fears a confrontation with Lanfear -- which he very well might, despite his claim -- but because he fears a confrontation with the two female Chosen linked.

 

Yes, but that speaks to my point--it speaks nothing to your idea that Rahvin might be stronger than Lanfear.

 

I guess I'm just a bit confused as to why you brought this up.

I didn't -- you did. You said to note that Rahvin stops Sammael. I am saying that it's an irrelevant occurance.

[Luckers]

I didn't -- you did. You said to note that Rahvin stops Sammael. I am saying that it's an irrelevant occurance.

 

Ah, I see. My mistake--i thought you were saying something entirely different. My appologies.

[General Cauthon]

Your claims are just that: Claims. I agree about Graendal, as well as Lews Therin, Ishamael and Demandred, and about Semirhage. I have seen proof of how they earned their third names, or at least enough proof to agree with your conclusion. But Asmodean? He was a child prodigy, but his promise was never fulfilled. That hardly seems cause for a third name. Be'lal? Sammael? They were generals for the forces of Light who defected to the Shadow. That's all I know of their accomplishments during the War of Power. If you have something else, please provide the proof.

 

Asmodean could've been given his third name before he "failed to reach his potential". Let's say he created musical masterpieces during his first 50 years, better and more popular for each year, but after he reached 50, failed to make anything good at all. He surely would've been honored by a 3. name before he reached 50, and still have centuries to not fulfill his promise.

 

Sammael was a world known atlete, in a number of sports,(including archery, and swordplay, where he was a world champion) easily qualifying for a 3. name.

 

Belal was an advocate. Obviuosly a good one, since he earned a 3. name.

 

All of the people given a 3. name that we know of, got it before the war.

 

Nothing suggest that anyone ever was given a 3. name because of their strength.

[Mr Ares]

I have yet to see any proof of this. At all. She is the strongest female Chosen.

BWB. TGH 7. No contrary evidence worth mentioning.

 

Prove it.

RJ said so.

 

In a vacuum, with NO OTHER INFORMATION, it is some information. It is not evidence. It is not even a good indication. But it is better than nothing.

It is not even a bad indication, as it doesn't indicate anything at all with regards to strength. Therefore it is worthless.

 

When did I ever claim it wasn't?

Point is, those incidents had nothing to do with strength.

 

It certainly is not. Moghedien cannot sense Rahvin's strength any more than Rahvin can sense Lanfear's. Moghedien can claim she would like to see Nynaeve face Rahvin unblocked; it proves jack.

Nothing to do with whether or not Moghedien is an idiot, nor how that is relevant. She isn't, and it isn't.

 

Did he specifically mention Rahvin?

Yes.

 

Of course they put value in strength.

Why of course? No indication this is so.

That doesn't mean they dismiss strength as useless.

Just not a relevant factor for deciding whether someone has earnt a third name.

 

It is more than zero. Even if it is 0.000001 more, it's more.

Not enough to be worth anything.

 

What never stopped you before?

Lots of things. In this instance, I have never considered something being a fragment rather than a complete sentence reason enough, in and of itself, to refrain from saying and/or typing it. Provided it is intelligible, and communicates my point, I find it is oft more succinct and efficient. And brevity is the soul of wit.

 

Yes, I maintain that it cannot be a random order. The odds for a random order is too high. As simple as that.

They are not too high. Simple as that.

 

The odds for a random order is too high. That means that it isn't a random order.

They are not too high. Therefore it could be random. Or it could be determined by any number of other factors. Why strength? No reason to order it like that.

 

Attempted.

Except where they couldn't be bothered to try fitting people in, and just dumped them randomly somewhere in the middle.

 

I did NOT put Moggy at the bottom in the comparison I did in this thread.

Then where did you put her? You said it was according to strength, she is listed last, therefore you put her last, weakest. It is implicit. Weakest. Who did you put below her? Are we even sure of her being weaker than Graendal?

We have no reason to expect them NOT to be the weakest of their genders.

We have no reason to place them anywhere other than not at the top. We have no reason to believe this was attempted to be ordered by strength.

Again, try reading what I write.

I do read what you write. It is invariably crap. Stop telling me to read what you write. You keep saying that, and it doesn't change the fact that I already have read your gibberish, the nonsense that has infected this thread for pages.

 

I've not said that many are placed randomly. Scribes (among others) make mistakes. Information could be wrong. For the most part, I think the list fits strength fairly well.

Except where it doesn't. We have no reason to believe it was attempted to be ordered by strength. So we have six of eight men placed randomly, and four women. 10/13 not placed according to strength.

 

I've not placed Mesaana or Semirhage in relation to anyone else (in this thread).

Yes, you have. You placed them below Lanfear, which is a given, and next to each other, which is likely but not a certainty. Therefore it cannot be taken as evidence to support your theory.

 

It says "almost", which leaves room for interpretation.

Not much.

Some of the others, with unspecified strengths, could possibly be just as strong as Demandred.

But we have no reason to believe them so.

It's funny how you categorically reject anything written in the books about strengths, but still completely accept statements in the BWB.

I accept statements in the BWB that are without contradictions. Such as Aginor being second strongest. We have no reason to disregard it. Every reason to accept it.

[balefireruinssteaks]

The aquisition of the third name probably had high standards.  We know that these Forsaken had their third names for the things that they accomplished in the AoL.

 

Aginor - famous biologist

Be'lal - famous historian

Asmodean - famous musician

Demandred - almost as famous as Lews Therin

Graendal - famous psychologist

Ishamael - famous philosopher/theologian

Semirhage - famous Restorer

Sammael - famous sportsman

 

It was interesting to me that Lanfear, who was considered the most powerful female channeler, did not have sufficient acclaim to be given the third name, so then the One Power was probably not a factor as stated...and many people with their third names could not channel at all I imagine.  I think Lanfear was excited about finding the source of the True Power because such a discovery might earn her that third name.

 

I think it's interesting, too, that Rahvin was considered such a potent threat for the Shadow but he did not have sufficient acclaim to receive a third name either.  Another reason why the One Power was probably not a factor.

 

But to the original topic...

 

I've always thought Moghedien was probably stronger than Mesaana and Semirhage or at least on the same level.  I also think that because she is well known to do things from the shadows, the other Forsaken don't underestimate her but also don't consider her as much of a threat as perhaps Graendal or Lanfear.  It's the same with Asmodean, although we don't really get a good look at his strength because his fame came from his music, not his strength in the Power.  He was probably very powerful but ranked lower in the male hierarchy of the Chosen.

 

So then I think the list would go...

 

Lanfear

Graendal

Moghedien/Semirhage/Mesaana (probably equal in strengths, or as Mesaana said...the differences balanced each other out so that they were an even match)

 

[Nightstrike]

I have yet to see any proof of this. At all. She is the strongest female Chosen.

BWB. TGH 7. No contrary evidence worth mentioning.

No evidence there. I think there might be other things that point towards it... Alivia versus Cyndane shows us just how far above the rest she stands. I think that might point towards her really being second strongest chosen. I don't know if there is 100% certain proof, though.

 

It certainly is not. Moghedien cannot sense Rahvin's strength any more than Rahvin can sense Lanfear's. Moghedien can claim she would like to see Nynaeve face Rahvin unblocked; it proves jack.

Nothing to do with whether or not Moghedien is an idiot, nor how that is relevant. She isn't, and it isn't.

She could be weaker than him, and still be a major threat. Especially considering that women are more deft in their weaving, they can possess angreal, and they are not expected to be a threat to a male Forsaken. Moghedien could also be misjudging Rahvin's strength.

 

Of course they put value in strength.

Why of course? No indication this is so.

That doesn't mean they dismiss strength as useless.

Just not a relevant factor for deciding whether someone has earnt a third name.

They did put some kind of value in strength. Balthamel kept his place, despite other things. Thanks to his strength. Wasn't enough to make him earn his third name, so maybe strength really wasn't a factor. But I don't think we have any evidence to say for sure. Maybe it wasn't supposed to be a factor, but was so anyway.

 

 

Yes, I maintain that it cannot be a random order. The odds for a random order is too high. As simple as that.

They are not too high. Simple as that.

You can play those odds, if you want.

 

The odds for a random order is too high. That means that it isn't a random order.

They are not too high. Therefore it could be random. Or it could be determined by any number of other factors. Why strength? No reason to order it like that.

The odds are AT LEAST 1 to 1 120 that it's a random order. At least!

 

I did NOT put Moggy at the bottom in the comparison I did in this thread.

Then where did you put her? You said it was according to strength, she is listed last, therefore you put her last, weakest. It is implicit. Weakest. Who did you put below her? Are we even sure of her being weaker than Graendal?

Go back in the thread and reread what I've said. We know she is weaker than Graendal. That's clear from Graendal's meeting with Cyndane and Moggy.

 

We have no reason to expect them NOT to be the weakest of their genders.

We have no reason to place them anywhere other than not at the top. We have no reason to believe this was attempted to be ordered by strength.

I haven't placed them anywhere, except Moggy below Graendal & Lanfear. Not in this thread. Try reading what I write. I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over.

 

I've not said that many are placed randomly. Scribes (among others) make mistakes. Information could be wrong. For the most part, I think the list fits strength fairly well.

Except where it doesn't. We have no reason to believe it was attempted to be ordered by strength. So we have six of eight men placed randomly, and four women. 10/13 not placed according to strength.

No, we do not have six out of eight men placed randomly. We do not have 4 women placed randomly. I've not even said that anyone was placed randomly. Perhaps 2 or perhaps 3 of the men were listed in the wrong place. I don't think anyone else is likely to have been listed in the wrong place.

 

I've not placed Mesaana or Semirhage in relation to anyone else (in this thread).

Yes, you have. You placed them below Lanfear, which is a given, and next to each other, which is likely but not a certainty. Therefore it cannot be taken as evidence to support your theory.

Yes, I mentioned that already. This is what I said:..."I've not placed Mesaana or Semirhage in relation to anyone else (in this thread). Besides them being the same strength and them being below Lanfear. Try reading what I write.". If you had read what I've written, then you would have known that several pages ago. I've repeated it since then. It is a certainty that they are next to each other in strength. That's why they are next to each other in the BWB.

 

Some of the others, with unspecified strengths, could possibly be just as strong as Demandred.

But we have no reason to believe them so.

Maybe others had.

 

It's funny how you categorically reject anything written in the books about strengths, but still completely accept statements in the BWB.

I accept statements in the BWB that are without contradictions. Such as Aginor being second strongest. We have no reason to disregard it. Every reason to accept it.

We do have evidence that contradicts it. We have every reason to question the BWB, and no reason to buy it as the absolute truth.

 

 

 

[dholm]

RJ said so.

 

Instead of simply saying "RJ said so", could you provide a citation?

[Thor]

People keep saying that we 'know' how strong is demandred?

 

Have you not realized by now that relative strengths in the power is relative?  'Just weaker' than rand can very well be as much a gap between moiraine and morgase.  there is absolutely nothing that suggests how strong demandred should be compared to aginor or sammuel.

 

and no majsu, we know that moiraine even with her angreal is still far weaker than rand because even aginor in a half rotten body defeated her relatively easily.  and don't try to make me believe that she didn't try to balefire him also.  it proves (or heavily implies if you prefer) that belal is weak.

[dholm]

Moiraine couldn't use balefire in TEotW. She makes a reference to being more dangerous than when she came to Emond's Field. I am certain she was referring to being able to use balefire.

[Luckers]

Yes she was. Generally it's believed she learnt it with Adeleas and Vandene--some suggest from them, but my guess is from a description in a book they had. We even have another circumstance of someone figuring out a weave from a description with Egwene and cuendillar (which she figured out from Moghedian's description).

 

[Astus]

and no majsu, we know that moiraine even with her angreal is still far weaker than rand because even aginor in a half rotten body defeated her relatively easily.  and don't try to make me believe that she didn't try to balefire him also.  it proves (or heavily implies if you prefer) that belal is weak.

Moiraine: "Even the Forsaken cannot stand up to balefire..... I have learned things in the last year, Perrin. I am... more dangerous than when I came to Edmond's Field. If I can come close to Be'lal. I can destroy him." (Page 599, TDR)

 

Be'lal's strength had nothing to do with it. Balefire will destroy anyone, irrespective of their strength in the power. That passage states outright that she learned many things (which could very well include balefire) during her adventures in TGH. If that is the case then there is no way she could applied these to her fight with Aginor. Maybe it was that very battle that caused her to try and a find a method for combating one of the Forsaken (this is just a supposition on my part) and she discovered balefire and her resolution.

 

It was clear that she was already weaving her balefire when she approaches Be'lal, the fact that it is not blatantly stated should not alter it, and if not, Be'lal's tangent provided opportunity enough and by the time he felt it right to actually do something, she had completed her weave. It was his arrogance that got him erased, not his lack of strength.

 

EDIT: Or as dholm and Luckers have just summarised ;P

[Mr Ares]

You can play those odds, if you want.

1 in 5 for the women? Doesn't seem too bad to me.

 

The odds are AT LEAST 1 to 1 120 that it's a random order. At least!

No.

 

We know she is weaker than Graendal. That's clear from Graendal's meeting with Cyndane and Moggy.

Care to actually provide evidence to support your claims for once? I did check that chapter last night, apparently I missed the relevant bit of information. I don't have PoD to hand at the moment, so would you be so kind as to say what it is that draws you to that conclusion?

 

I haven't placed them anywhere

Except at the bottom, which is unsupported.

I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over.

Then shut up. I'm not forcing you to continue spouting nonsense.

 

No, we do not have six out of eight men placed randomly.

We only have two placed according to strength, although according to you one of them is wrong. We only have the first woman placed according to strength. The remaining four being so ordered is unsupported.

I've not even said that anyone was placed randomly. Perhaps 2 or perhaps 3 of the men were listed in the wrong place. I don't think anyone else is likely to have been listed in the wrong place.

Nightstrike in Reply #25

Those added later could be added in wrong order, or perhaps in no order at all.

Nightstrike in Reply #22

Those 4 are mentioned among the 5 last male Forsaken - just before Asmo. So those 4 shouldn't be included in the strength comparisons.

Nightstrike in Reply #34

Aginor wasn't the second strongest among the 8 male Forsaken, for example.

Nightstrike in Reply #52

I've not said that many are placed randomly.

So some are added in in the wrong order, not many are done randomly, a tacit admission that some are, Aginor is wrong anyway. Try reading what you wrote in this thread. Or just not talking crap.

 

It is a certainty that they are next to each other in strength.

No, it isn't.

Mesaana knew her own strengths and weaknesses' date=' with the One Power and elsewhere. She matched well with Semirhage on most points.[/quote']That is not quite saying they are the same strength in the Power. "Matched well with", "on most points", "with the Power and elsewhere". Nothing like as set in stone as some would have us believe. We can place but one woman according to strength, given the information thus far presented in the thread. Just one. So the odds of her being picked first are 1 in 5. And there are other reasons to put Lanfear first anyway, strength really being the least of them. Those odds are none too steep. Reading your posts only tells me that you like talking crap at great length, and are unwilling to give up a theory even when it has been discredited. There is nothing to indicate you have stumbled on the secret ordering of the Chosen in the BWB. Nothing.

 

We do have evidence that contradicts it.

Such as? Unless you present it, it might as well not exist. The list being ordered according to strength is utterly unsupported.

 

RJ said so.

Instead of simply saying "RJ said so", could you provide a citation?

Q71 – Part 2: I get the impression that Asmodean is weaker than Lanfear even before he was shielded. How much weaker, etc.?

 

RJ: RAFO. I don’t go into that kind of thing. I know where they are. I also know they are highly unreliable. None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are, even when you are inside their heads. Don’t take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.

http://www.wotmania.net/faqtopic.asp?ID=192 A quote also useful for the argument against Nightstrike - he doesn't go in to that sort of thing, yet he did so by ordering the Chosen according to strength? Doubtful.

[dholm]

RJ said so.

Instead of simply saying "RJ said so", could you provide a citation?

Q71 – Part 2: I get the impression that Asmodean is weaker than Lanfear even before he was shielded. How much weaker, etc.?

 

RJ: RAFO. I don’t go into that kind of thing. I know where they are. I also know they are highly unreliable. None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are, even when you are inside their heads. Don’t take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.

http://www.wotmania.net/faqtopic.asp?ID=192 A quote also useful for the argument against Nightstrike - he doesn't go in to that sort of thing, yet he did so by ordering the Chosen according to strength? Doubtful.

No mention of Rahvin there. He also doesn't say they would delude themselves into thinking that someone who is actually stronger than they are is weaker.

[Nightstrike]

The odds are AT LEAST 1 to 1 120 that it's a random order. At least!

No.

Ishy & Aginor gives us 1 to 56. Lanfear gives us 1 to 5. Semirhage/Mesaana gives us 1 to 2. Moggy below Graendal gives us 1 to 2. Odds for a random order is AT LEAST 1 to 1 120.

 

We know she is weaker than Graendal. That's clear from Graendal's meeting with Cyndane and Moggy.

Care to actually provide evidence to support your claims for once? I did check that chapter last night, apparently I missed the relevant bit of information. I don't have PoD to hand at the moment, so would you be so kind as to say what it is that draws you to that conclusion?

Most people seem to draw another conclusion than you. That's because your conclusion is wrong.

 

I haven't placed them anywhere

Except at the bottom, which is unsupported.

I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over.

Then shut up. I'm not forcing you to continue spouting nonsense.

:D

 

No, we do not have six out of eight men placed randomly.

We only have two placed according to strength, although according to you one of them is wrong. We only have the first woman placed according to strength. The remaining four being so ordered is unsupported.

Not wrong according to those characters who wrote the material. According to you, Graendal is most likely as the second strongest woman. I agree with that. Even though I only chose to place her above Moggy in this thread.

 

I've not even said that anyone was placed randomly. Perhaps 2 or perhaps 3 of the men were listed in the wrong place. I don't think anyone else is likely to have been listed in the wrong place.

Nightstrike in Reply #25

Those added later could be added in wrong order, or perhaps in no order at all.

Nightstrike in Reply #22

Those 4 are mentioned among the 5 last male Forsaken - just before Asmo. So those 4 shouldn't be included in the strength comparisons.

Nightstrike in Reply #34

Aginor wasn't the second strongest among the 8 male Forsaken, for example.

First of all, I did not say that they were placed RANDOMLY. Secondly, I said PERHAPS the LATER ADDITIONS could be added with no order among themselves. If their strengths in relation to the previous entries were a bit unclear (they are not stated in the BWB, probably because the fragments of information were viewed as dubious), then it's POSSIBLE that the writer could fit the four of them in right before the one that they (probably rightly) assumed to be the weakest. When I say "PERHAPS", you shouldn't take that as a matter of fact. Even if they were placed together, the four of them, it would still not be a RANDOM four entries we are talking about. Random is your interpretation.

 

Nightstrike in Reply #52

I've not said that many are placed randomly.

So some are added in in the wrong order, not many are done randomly, a tacit admission that some are, Aginor is wrong anyway. Try reading what you wrote in this thread. Or just not talking crap.

Aginor is right according to the BWB. That means it is placed in the right place as they viewed it. And I've never said that many were placed randomly.

 

I think Demandred & Sammael might be listed in the wrong place. Lift them out of the list and we get this progression (which I believe very well could be the correct one):

Ishy-Aginor-Balthamel-Rahvin-Be'lal-Asmodean

 

List of female Forsaken is probably completely accurate, though. Not surprising, since it probably was female characters who provided the information in the BWB.

 

 

It is a certainty that they are next to each other in strength.

No, it isn't.

Mesaana knew her own strengths and weaknesses' date=' with the One Power and elsewhere. She matched well with Semirhage on most points.[/quote']That is not quite saying they are the same strength in the Power. "Matched well with", "on most points", "with the Power and elsewhere". Nothing like as set in stone as some would have us believe. We can place but one woman according to strength, given the information thus far presented in the thread. Just one. So the odds of her being picked first are 1 in 5. And there are other reasons to put Lanfear first anyway, strength really being the least of them. Those odds are none too steep. Reading your posts only tells me that you like talking crap at great length, and are unwilling to give up a theory even when it has been discredited. There is nothing to indicate you have stumbled on the secret ordering of the Chosen in the BWB. Nothing.

I think most people would see it differently. I've read a lot of people's theories that place them together. Luckers, for example, placed them together.

 

We do have evidence that contradicts it.

Such as? Unless you present it, it might as well not exist. The list being ordered according to strength is utterly unsupported.

Aginor being scared of Demandred, for instance. Dashiva masquerading as an asha'man for another. Why do you blindly trust the BWB, out of all possible sources?

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Q71 – Part 2: I get the impression that Asmodean is weaker than Lanfear even before he was shielded. How much weaker, etc.?

 

RJ: RAFO. I don’t go into that kind of thing. I know where they are. I also know they are highly unreliable. None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are, even when you are inside their heads. Don’t take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.

No mention of Rahvin there. He also doesn't say they would delude themselves into thinking that someone who is actually stronger than they are is weaker.

He said you can't trust them even while in their heads, therefore we cannot trust Rahvin's thoughts on the matter. They lie to themselves. Stronger, weaker, we cannot trust them.

 

Ishy & Aginor gives us 1 to 56.

But, according to you, Aginor is wrong. Although you base that on nothing. So only one in 8.

Semirhage/Mesaana gives us 1 to 2.

Unsupported.

Moggy below Graendal gives us 1 to 2.

Unsupported.

Odds for a random order is AT LEAST 1 to 1 120.

One in eight chance for the men, one in five for the women. And both of those having reasons other than strength to be featured most prominently.

 

We know she is weaker than Graendal. That's clear from Graendal's meeting with Cyndane and Moggy.

Care to actually provide evidence to support your claims for once? I did check that chapter last night, apparently I missed the relevant bit of information. I don't have PoD to hand at the moment, so would you be so kind as to say what it is that draws you to that conclusion?

Most people seem to draw another conclusion than you. That's because your conclusion is wrong.

And yet you cannot provide evidence to support it. I didn't actually draw a conclusion. Read what I wrote. Unless you're claiming that my conclusion that I don't have Path of Daggers to hand is false. I can assure you it isn't, and I'm in a much better position than you to say that. For one thing, I know where my hands are at the moment (on my keyboard, typing this), and I know where my PoD is (in a different house to the one I happen to be in). Had you read what I wrote, you would have noticed that I asked for quotes, for evidence. I said that I must have missed the relevant part, and asked for it to be provided. I don't see how you can consider that a flawed conclusion. Now, if you had evidence, wouldn't you post it? Yet you didn't, even when I asked you to. That's not exactly the strongest argument I've ever seen for my conclusion (if I had one, which I don't, as anyone who read what I wrote (I'm having to make up for lost time, here) would know, by virtue of reading what I wrote and the lack of conclusions I drew.

 

Not wrong according to those characters who wrote the material.

And you know better than them, despite no evidence to the contrary.

According to you, Graendal is most likely as the second strongest woman.

But it is not a certainty, therefore cannot be considered evidence to support your theory.

I chose to place her above Moggy.

Yet when asked to support that decision with evidence, you refused. Indeed, you wrote something with no relationship to what I had written, which you would know had you read it.

 

First of all, I did not say that they were placed RANDOMLY.

perhaps in no order at all

Randomly. Read what you wrote. Seems like I might be the only one doing that.

then it's POSSIBLE that the writer could fit the four of them in right before the one that they (probably rightly) assumed to be the weakest.

In other words, randomly. And with nothing to support them at that strength, so it cannot be taken as ordered according to strength. And there is nothing to indicate Asmo is the weakest.

 

Aginor is right according to the BWB.

He could hardly be placed wrongly, as it isn't in any particular order.

 

I think Demandred & Sammael might be listed in the wrong place. Lift them out of the list and we get this progression (which I believe very well could be the correct one):

Ishy-Aginor-Rahvin-Balthamel-Be'lal-Asmodean

You believe, but there is nothing to support beyond the first two.

 

List of female Forsaken is probably completely accurate, though.

Nothing to support that, though. Only one can be confirmed, the remaining four there is too little to say to put them in any strength based order.

 

I think most people would see it differently. I've read a lot of people's theories that place them together. Luckers, for example, placed them together.

And "most people", including Luckers, would be wrong to do so. The evidence is pretty thin on that point, a single quote which does not say they are the same strength. A dramatic difference is unlikely, but we cannot rule out there being some degree of difference.

 

We do have evidence that contradicts it.

Such as? Unless you present it, it might as well not exist. The list being ordered according to strength is utterly unsupported.

Aginor being scared of Demandred, for instance. Dashiva masquerading as an asha'man for another. Why do you blindly trust the BWB, out of all possible sources?

Because there is nothing to indicate, in this instance, that it is wrong. Aginor being scared of Demandred has nothing to do with strength, or Dashiva as an Asha'man. Neither say anything about his strength in the power, or how it relates to Demandred's.

[Nightstrike]

Ishy & Aginor gives us 1 to 56.

But, according to you, Aginor is wrong. Although you base that on nothing. So only one in 8.

Not according to the BWB. So 1 to 56 for Ishy & Aginor.

 

Semirhage/Mesaana gives us 1 to 2.

Unsupported.

Supported. I'm not the only one to say so.

 

Moggy below Graendal gives us 1 to 2.

Unsupported.

Clearly, you think Graendal is likely to be the second strongest female Forsaken. That would mean she's above Moggy. "Where had the Spider found a girl that much stronger than her?", right after thinking that Cyndane was just a little stronger than herself [Graendal]. That means Graendal is stronger than Moghedien.

 

Odds for a random order is AT LEAST 1 to 1 120.

One in eight chance for the men, one in five for the women. And both of those having reasons other than strength to be featured most prominently.

No, you're mistaken.  ;)

 

We know she is weaker than Graendal. That's clear from Graendal's meeting with Cyndane and Moggy.

Care to actually provide evidence to support your claims for once? I did check that chapter last night, apparently I missed the relevant bit of information. I don't have PoD to hand at the moment, so would you be so kind as to say what it is that draws you to that conclusion?

Most people seem to draw another conclusion than you. That's because your conclusion is wrong.

And yet you cannot provide evidence to support it. I didn't actually draw a conclusion. Read what I wrote. Unless you're claiming that my conclusion that I don't have Path of Daggers to hand is false. I can assure you it isn't, and I'm in a much better position than you to say that. For one thing, I know where my hands are at the moment (on my keyboard, typing this), and I know where my PoD is (in a different house to the one I happen to be in). Had you read what I wrote, you would have noticed that I asked for quotes, for evidence. I said that I must have missed the relevant part, and asked for it to be provided. I don't see how you can consider that a flawed conclusion. Now, if you had evidence, wouldn't you post it? Yet you didn't, even when I asked you to. That's not exactly the strongest argument I've ever seen for my conclusion (if I had one, which I don't, as anyone who read what I wrote (I'm having to make up for lost time, here) would know, by virtue of reading what I wrote and the lack of conclusions I drew.

:D You're a funny guy, Mr Ares. I think the evidence has been provided somewhere. I've already pointed you in the right direction.

 

 

Not wrong according to those characters who wrote the material.

And you know better than them, despite no evidence to the contrary.

WoT readers don't only have the BWB to read, thank the Light.

 

I think Demandred & Sammael might be listed in the wrong place. Lift them out of the list and we get this progression (which I believe very well could be the correct one):

Ishy-Aginor-Balthamel-Rahvin-Be'lal-Asmodean

You believe, but there is nothing to support beyond the first two.

How about 1 to 1 120? We all know how weak Asmo is, compared to Rand's potential. None other than him has been descibed as that weak. Not even close. It certainly seems reasonable that he is the weakest male Forsaken.

 

List of female Forsaken is probably completely accurate, though.

Nothing to support that, though. Only one can be confirmed, the remaining four there is too little to say to put them in any strength based order.

Graendal as second strongest among them seems very likely. Moghedien as weakest also seems very likely. Altogether very, very likely.

 

Aginor being scared of Demandred, for instance. Dashiva masquerading as an asha'man for another. Why do you blindly trust the BWB, out of all possible sources?

Because there is nothing to indicate, in this instance, that it is wrong. Aginor being scared of Demandred has nothing to do with strength, or Dashiva as an Asha'man. Neither say anything about his strength in the power, or how it relates to Demandred's.

So, you can say with any certainty that Aginor wasn't scared of Demandred because of Demandred's OP strength? Or, even better, that super-powered Aginor could pass off as Dashiva right in front of Rand and others? They didn't discover the super-powered man among their ranks (how did he do it?). You question everything else until the most absurd extremes, and yet you DO NOT question the BWB. A highly dubious source to trust, especially when reading about information from "3 000 years back".

 

[Thor]

dashiva has always been described as being very strong, certainly seems to be the strongest of all those who stayed near rand anyways.

 

and he doesn't really fear demandred, maybe see him with a bit of awe, but that's just because aginor has always been a labrat so obviously demandred, who is used to having authority as a genera, would seem awe inspiring to aginor.

 

i still disagree about belal, still don't think he is as strong as sammuel.

[dholm]

Q71 – Part 2: I get the impression that Asmodean is weaker than Lanfear even before he was shielded. How much weaker, etc.?

 

RJ: RAFO. I don’t go into that kind of thing. I know where they are. I also know they are highly unreliable. None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are, even when you are inside their heads. Don’t take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.

No mention of Rahvin there. He also doesn't say they would delude themselves into thinking that someone who is actually stronger than they are is weaker.

He said you can't trust them even while in their heads, therefore we cannot trust Rahvin's thoughts on the matter. They lie to themselves. Stronger, weaker, we cannot trust them.

Unless he specifically mentions Rahvin, it proves nothing. He is not the only of the Chosen to mentally compare himself against the others -- Mesaana does it, for instance. Graendal, too.

 

You also neglect to consider that there's a difference between mentally diminishing someone's advantages compared to yours, and to making them into disadvantages. The quote implies the former, not the latter.