Who is stronger?

[Zagorac]

OK we know that Lanfear is the strongest out of all female Forsaken. But I've never been able to find anything about how the other 4 rank. Have you? If not, who do you think is the second one in strenght?

[Midean]

OK we know that Lanfear is the strongest out of all female Forsaken. But I've never been able to find anything about how the other 4 rank. Have you? If not, who do you think is the second one in strenght?

 

Memory is a little fuzzy ( that's whay im re-reading again  :P )

But i would say Graendel, she seems to be pretty strong being able to Compel so many people at once, all her "pretties" etc.

 

 

[Krazikarl]

Well, Moghedien would have to be the weakest I think.  I dont think there is enough info to rank the other 3.  Graendal might be the second strongest - she didnt seem particularily intimidated by Cyndane when they first meet, even though Cyndane is weaker than she was as Lanfear, but Cyndane is still pretty strong it seems.  We really dont know enough about Samirhage or Mesaana to say much at all.  Samirhage had the whole 3 name thing during the AoL (as did Graendal but not Mesaana), but thats not necessarily an indication of strength since Lanfear was stronger and only had 2 names.  Plus, Samirhage didnt exactly seem so powerful when she got taken by Rand and company.

[Mr. Dragon]

When Semirhage was taken, there were a large number of channelers against her including Logain who is almost as strong as Rand so it is unsurprising that she couldn't put up much of a fight.

[albino_dog]

I think it goes like this:

 

Lanfear > Semirhage > Graendal > Mesaana > Moghedien

 

Semirhage and Graendal might be the other way around.

[Ziggdiezan]

i think Semirhage is the best female killer. If im not mistaken she was the one who could cure anything in the Age of Legends,she was the healer of the mind right? So she would know how to kill people more effectivly i think.

[Nightstrike]

The BWB seems to list them in order of strength. At least the supposed strength. Information could have been lost or wrong, since the BWB is supposed to have the ignorance of "present day" Aes Sedai built in.

 

Graendal is most likely the second strongest female Forsaken. Other things point towards that as well. Not only the BWB.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Oh, and Mesaana is the same strength as Semirhage.

[Luckers]

Ok. What we know as fact is this.

 

1. Lanfear was the strongest, she stood as strong as a woman can be.

2. Cyndane even at her reduced strength is stronger than Graendal.

3. Graendal is stronger than Moghedian.

4. Semirhage and Mesaana are the same strength.

 

From there we do not know much. Many people assume Moghedian to be the weakest yet this is never stated--for all that she is cowardly in manner she is not nessasarily weak in the power. Her methods of dealing with things (in effect her spidery ways) would have been established long before the War of the Shadow (remember she was three hundred years old). Indeed, during that time (the time when her eprsonality would have formed, and her cowardice would have been set in) it's unlikely she would have dealt with many channelers as strong as she. Remember there were millions of channlers in the Age of Legends.

 

The simple fact is that Moghedian avoids confrontation. Her weak character doesn't actually imply anything. She may well be stronger than Semirhage and Mesaana. Certainly she implies that she is stronger than Rhavin when she says Rhavin would be impressed by Nynaeve unblocked.

 

On the other hand Semirhage and Mesaana could stand between Graendal and Moghedian, or for that matter be stronger than Graendal. My point is simply that her cowardly ways do not speak to her actual strength relative the others.

 

The BWB seems to list them in order of strength. At least the supposed strength. Information could have been lost or wrong, since the BWB is supposed to have the ignorance of "present day" Aes Sedai built in.

 

The BWB makes no claim to such an organisation--and it places Demandred after Sammael, Rhavin and Be'lal, despite the fact that its well documented that he stands just below Lews Therin and Ishamael--and as such either on parr with Aginor, or above him.

 

No, this seem very unlikely.

 

Graendal is most likely the second strongest female Forsaken. Other things point towards that as well. Not only the BWB.

 

I'm inclined to agree, though we don't know this for sure. She states that even in her own age women who stood above her were rare--there were millions of women who could channel in her own age--rare leaves room for Semirhage and Mesaana to be stronger.

[Braus]

From where did you find out there were millions of channelers in the AOL?:)

This big white book, is it some kind of fanmade work?

[Thor]

i think it's an estimation of the AoL population.

 

Let's say there were 1 billion people, which isn't much heck that's less than China.  Even if only 1% could channel (low), that's already 10 million.

[Luckers]

Actually RJ stated that in the Age of Legends 3% could channel. (in the Third Age that falls to 1%).

 

The Age of Legends was a highly industrialized age. Even with population control that means there were millions of channelers. Thor's math should show that.

[Nightstrike]

This big white book, is it some kind of fanmade work?

No, it's not fanmade. It's "The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time". Authors are Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson. It can be used as an encyclopaedia. Only risk is that some things are deliberately wrong, since the Aes Sedai believe things to be true that actually are not.

 

The BWB seems to list them in order of strength. At least the supposed strength. Information could have been lost or wrong, since the BWB is supposed to have the ignorance of "present day" Aes Sedai built in.

 

The BWB makes no claim to such an organisation--and it places Demandred after Sammael, Rhavin and Be'lal, despite the fact that its well documented that he stands just below Lews Therin and Ishamael--and as such either on parr with Aginor, or above him.

 

No, this seem very unlikely.

BWB starts off with Ishamael, and then Aginor for men. And it starts with Lanfear among the women. Aginor, according to the BWB, is the second strongest. Rand matched Asmodean when Rand was far from his potential strength. Asmodean is listed last among the men (which seems reasonable, if it's all about strength). Semirhage and Mesaana are listed next to each other in the BWB. And they are the same strength. This isn't a random listing. The list fits order of strength surprisingly well. If the order had been completely random, then we would have seen some other order among them. That said, I agree with you when you say that Demandred is listed below his real strength. That must be a "mistake" (by the Aes Sedai).

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 02:55:23 AM

Quote

The BWB seems to list them in order of strength. At least the supposed strength. Information could have been lost or wrong, since the BWB is supposed to have the ignorance of "present day" Aes Sedai built in.

 

The BWB makes no claim to such an organisation--and it places Demandred after Sammael, Rhavin and Be'lal, despite the fact that its well documented that he stands just below Lews Therin and Ishamael--and as such either on parr with Aginor, or above him.

 

No, this seem very unlikely.

BWB starts off with Ishamael, and then Aginor for men. And it starts with Lanfear among the women. Aginor, according to the BWB, is the second strongest. Rand matched Asmodean when Rand was far from his potential strength. Asmodean is listed last among the men (which seems reasonable, if it's all about strength). Semirhage and Mesaana are listed next to each other in the BWB. And they are the same strength. This isn't a random listing. The list fits order of strength surprisingly well. If the order had been completely random, then we would have seen some other order among them. That said, I agree with you when you say that Demandred is listed below his real strength. That must be a "mistake" (by the Aes Sedai).

 

So you consider that your perception of where forsaken would stand based on personality is an accurate judge in assigning importance to the precedence the BWB assinged... and that the one glaring mistake is a 'mistake of the modern Aes Sedai writer'.

 

That might be a viable argument if the BWB suggested for itself that the way it set out the descriptions of the Forsaken were based on strength. It claimed no such thing. And I find it difficult that this modern Aes Sedai was so well informed as to know the disposition of the Forsaken, yet missed the one Forsaken who turned in large part because he was slightly weaker than Lews Therin. Demandred is literally the only forsaken stated whose strength plays a part in his turning. Yet he's the one this 'modern Aes Sedai' got wrong.

 

Sorry, i don't buy it.

[Nightstrike]

So you consider that your perception of where forsaken would stand based on personality is an accurate judge in assigning importance to the precedence the BWB assinged... and that the one glaring mistake is a 'mistake of the modern Aes Sedai writer'.

Personality? I was talking about One Power strength. Aginor hadn't the second "strongest personality" (whether according to the BWB, or otherwise).

 

That might be a viable argument if the BWB suggested for itself that the way it set out the descriptions of the Forsaken were based on strength. It claimed no such thing.

The one that wrote that list should have bought a lottery ticket then. Maybe she was ta'veren.

 

And I find it difficult that this modern Aes Sedai was so well informed as to know the disposition of the Forsaken, yet missed the one Forsaken who turned in large part because he was slightly weaker than Lews Therin. Demandred is literally the only forsaken stated whose strength plays a part in his turning. Yet he's the one this 'modern Aes Sedai' got wrong.

I don't think a modern Aes Sedai is supposed to have written it down in "present day" from a tradition of story-telling going back that far. I think the information is supposed to have been written down a long time ago, and then preserved by later generations.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

That might be a viable argument if the BWB suggested for itself that the way it set out the descriptions of the Forsaken were based on strength. It claimed no such thing.

The one that wrote that list should have bought a lottery ticket then. Maybe she was ta'veren.

Why?

 

The book presents a list of the Chosen, not stated to be in any particular order, and we can be pretty sure that if the is an order it isn't strength.

[mb]

This page lists saidar strengths::

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=75

 

[pxnsolid]

But i would say Graendel, she seems to be pretty strong being able to Compel so many people at once, all her "pretties" etc.

 

she doesnt need to compel them all at once. not to say she isnt strong, but for the average subject, once would be enough, maybe a little to maintain here and there, and then theres the ones whos minds she ruins and she couldnt even fix. thats compelled for life.

[Nightstrike]

That might be a viable argument if the BWB suggested for itself that the way it set out the descriptions of the Forsaken were based on strength. It claimed no such thing.

The one that wrote that list should have bought a lottery ticket then. Maybe she was ta'veren.

Why?

 

The book presents a list of the Chosen, not stated to be in any particular order, and we can be pretty sure that if the is an order it isn't strength.

Ishamael first, then Aginor. That's 1/8 & 1/7 to "get it right" by chance. Asmodean last. That would be 1/6. Lanfear first among women. That's 1/5 of getting it right. Mesaana & Semirhage next to each other. That's 1/2. We know Graendal is stronger than Moghedien. That's 1/2. That would be 1 to 6720 of getting it right by chance. So yes, she should have bought a lottery ticket. Being ta'veren and all.

[Braus]

pff

[Nightstrike]

pff

pfffff

[Mr Ares]

This page lists saidar strengths::

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=75

Highly speculative.

 

Ishamael first, then Aginor. That's 1/8 & 1/7 to "get it right" by chance. Asmodean last.

I don't recall any specific information saying Asmo was the weakest in the Power. So you have two, and at least one wrong in Demandred.

Lanfear first among women.

She is also, like Ishamael among the men, the first to appear and the most important, and therefore it makes sense for her to be first.

That would be 1 to 6720 of getting it right by chance.

But it wasn't right. Demandred. And we can't place Asmo, or Moghedien except with regard to Lanfear and Graendal beng stronger than her. In other words, you're talking out of your arse again. I'm almost inclined to wonder what you do with your mouth.

[Nightstrike]

Ishamael first, then Aginor. That's 1/8 & 1/7 to "get it right" by chance. Asmodean last.

I don't recall any specific information saying Asmo was the weakest in the Power. So you have two, and at least one wrong in Demandred.

Rand versus Asmo & the DO's statements makes it clear that Asmo was the weakling among the male Forsaken. Demandred, Sammael & Be'lal joined the Shadow late. Makes a supposed "mistake" likely. RJ liked to add a bit of realism into his fantasy. Rahvin probably joined late as well (but we have no information about that). Those 4 are mentioned among the 5 last male Forsaken - just before Asmo. So those 4 shouldn't be included in the strength comparisons.

 

Lanfear first among women.

She is also, like Ishamael among the men, the first to appear and the most important, and therefore it makes sense for her to be first.

Yes, it does indeed make sense for people to order them according to strength. Aginor wasn't even in the top end of the pyramid, but he was the second strongest (according to the BWB). He was listed second among the male Forsaken, despite not being in the top end of the pyramid. His strength was at the top, though, at least before Demandred joined.

 

That would be 1 to 6720 of getting it right by chance.

But it wasn't right. Demandred. And we can't place Asmo, or Moghedien except with regard to Lanfear and Graendal beng stronger than her. In other words, you're talking out of your arse again. I'm almost inclined to wonder what you do with your mouth.

:D   The listing in the BWB is not random. I've not placed Moghedien anywhere, except below Lanfear & Graendal, in that comparison.

 

[Mr Ares]

Rand versus Asmo & the DO's statements makes it clear that Asmo was the weakling among the male Forsaken.

Which statements, specifically? I don't recall anything that places him on the bottom of the heap. In fact, this article attempts to discuss the relative strengths of the male Chosen, and while it places Asmo on the bottom of the heap, it gives less than compelling reasons to do so, and admits that. The evidence for placing Asmo at the bottom is pretty tenuous. So, his placement at the end cannot be confirmation of your absurd theory.

Demandred, Sammael & Be'lal joined the Shadow late. Makes a supposed "mistake" likely.

Why?

Rahvin probably joined late as well (but we have no information about that).

And even if he did, so what?

Those 4 are mentioned among the 5 last male Forsaken - just before Asmo. So those 4 shouldn't be included in the strength comparisons.

Ah, so it is in strength order, except for four of the men in the middle. And never stated to be in strength order. Your ridiculous assertion becomes ever more undefendable. It places the top two in strength order, and that's it. And that could be for any number of reasons beyond a desire to put it in strength order, which we know they didn't do. Nor did they have any reason to do.

 

Lanfear first among women.

She is also, like Ishamael among the men, the first to appear and the most important, and therefore it makes sense for her to be first.

Yes, it does indeed make sense for people to order them according to strength.

....What? Aside from the fact that it doesn't, I didn't say it did. I said it made sense to put Lanfear first, becasue she was both the first female Chosen introduced into the story, and also the most important to the story.

Aginor wasn't even in the top end of the pyramid

What pyramid? We know that at the time of the Strike, he was among the most important Chosen, they all were, but we can't really rank them in terms of importance to the story, not without introducing and enormous amount of subjectivity. Except for Ishamael at the top.

He was listed second among the male Forsaken, despite not being in the top end of the pyramid.

What pyramid?

His strength was at the top, though, at least before Demandred joined.

And even after Demandred joined. He was second strongest.

 

The listing in the BWB is not random.

You base that on what? We know it isn't strength, but we don't know what, if any, criteria were used to determine order. Perhaps it was a purely aesthetic choice, with RJ deciding this way "felt" best, or perhaps he did it in order of penis size for the men. Maybe he just pulled names out of a hat.

I've not placed Moghedien anywhere, except below Lanfear & Graendal, in that comparison.

You place her as weakest woman, which we do not have evidence to sustain, in order to support your absurd theory about this being done according to strength when we know it isn't.

[Luckers]

Nightstrike, I'm sorry but you've missed the obvious--the writer of the BWB knows Demandred's relative strength. She states that '"Almost" seems to be the tale of [Demandred's] life. Born one day after Lews Therin, he had almost as much strength, and almost as much skill.'

 

That was no mistake. She knew Demandred stood either equal to Aginor, or greater than him. Yet she placed him fifth.

 

There is no hidden order to her description of the Forsaken.