Dark One Breaks Free... So What?

[deviant728]

I have been reading all the posts about how the DO will finally break free of his prison during Tarmon Gaiden, but what does that mean exactly? We know that Ishy constantly says that the DO will break the wheel of time and slay the serpent, but why did this not happen when the DO was more free during the AOL? I understand the DO only touched the world a little through his prison during the AOL, but would his touch/influence in the world be more complete this time? Would the DO actually have the power to follow through during this age? If so, why do you think that is? Could it be that there is no one in this age that can oppose his fully breaking free from his place outside the patter? I guess I just see Ishy's threats as a bit less extreme when the DO didn't already follow through on them when he had a more tangible influence in the AOL.

 

Any thoughts?

[Arath Faringal]

When the bore was first drilled, the Dark One's influence was small.  It took a full century before he was ready to strike in the War of Power.  By the time Lews Therin sealed the bore, the DO's influence was getting pretty frightening.  Not enough for him to break completely free of his prison and destroy time, but probably getting close.

 

When the last of the seals breaks, the DO will have the same influence he had at the very end of the War of Power, if not more.  It probably would only be a short matter of time before he can make good on Ishy's threats and break free.  Hence the pressing need for the Dragon Reborn to lock him away again.

[Cybertrolloc]

Things are pretty bad as of KoD.

 

I've wondered whether DO was able to do these things in AoL or the Aes Sedai had ways of stopping them or lessening the effects. Haven't come up with much.

[Titan Orion]

I reckon if the Dark One breaks free he can remove the "Wheel of Time" aspect on reality that spins out heroes and whatnot. So, if Rand dies and the Dark One breaks free, the Dark One can make it so the Dragon wont be reborn ever again. thats just my spin on it though, the way I imagine it

[Dunderdan]

Thats an interesting version I havent thought of before, that the DO would remove the WoT aspect on reality if he breaks free. Ive limited myself to thinking he'd do the traditional world domination using his Legions of Doom .

 

A tweaked version of that would be that he'd replace the good in the WoT mechanism with his evil, making the wheel spin out characters tied to an evil circle.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I reckon if the Dark One breaks free he can remove the "Wheel of Time" aspect on reality that spins out heroes and whatnot.

I reckon he will as well. Specifically, He would remove the "time" aspect. The Dragon will never again be reborn, because there will be no ever again for him to be born into. After all, destroying time is both His stated goal and the reason Ishy follows Him.

[Builder]

I reckon if the Dark One breaks free he can remove the "Wheel of Time" aspect on reality that spins out heroes and whatnot.

I reckon he will as well. Specifically, He would remove the "time" aspect. The Dragon will never again be reborn, because there will be no ever again for him to be born into. After all, destroying time is both His stated goal and the reason Ishy follows Him.

 

I've also heard talk that the DO will remake time in the fashion that is IRL. It won't go in a big circle, but rather in a linear "movement".

[Majsju]

I've also heard talk that the DO will remake time in the fashion that is IRL. It won't go in a big circle, but rather in a linear "movement".

 

He has to, if he wants to remake the world. Change requires linear time.

 

[Casco]

The goal for the DO is to break the wheel of time. He have never done it before, he have never been free before. This is the closest he have ever been to finaly breaking the wheel of time and remake the world and time as he want. Thats why Rand MUST win TG.

 

[Builder]

But why exactly this Age? RJ stated that this Age isn't special. Rand won't kill the DO or anything. Why is the DO so close to breaking free now and not during the AoL?

[Majsju]

But why exactly this Age? RJ stated that this Age isn't special. Rand won't kill the DO or anything. Why is the DO so close to breaking free now and not during the AoL?

 

You are confusing Age and Turning. There is nothing special about this turning of the Wheel, which means that this 3rd Age plays out very similar to how every 3rd Age plays out.

 

Why the DO is so much closer to breaking out now than during the AOL, one reason is that he has had 3000 years to poke at the Bore, which means it should be fairly larger than in the AOL.

[Builder]

But why exactly this Age? RJ stated that this Age isn't special. Rand won't kill the DO or anything. Why is the DO so close to breaking free now and not during the AoL?

 

You are confusing Age and Turning. There is nothing special about this turning of the Wheel, which means that this 3rd Age plays out very similar to how every 3rd Age plays out.

 

Why the DO is so much closer to breaking out now than during the AOL, one reason is that he has had 3000 years to poke at the Bore, which means it should be fairly larger than in the AOL.

 

Ups, my bad :)

 

Yeah, he had 3000 years this time, but if we take the AoL which must have existed for at least 1000 years, plus the First Age which also must have been a long time, we can assume that he was doing something then as well. I find this particular part very confusing. How wouldn't he be able to break free especially when there was no one around to stop him before. Now he has this powerful guy determined on stopping him and everything.

[Majsju]

He had around 100 years in the AOL. Apparently, he can not open up a hole from the inside, someone must do it from the outside. Which gives roughly 100 years from the drilling of the Bore by Lanfear and Beidomon to LTTs attack on SG. LTTs attack resulted in a seal that prevented the DO from touching the world, but he could still poke at the bore, in order to expand it.

 

And the way the Wheel works, Rand was always destined to be born just in time to be there when the DO is strong enough to break free.

[Builder]

Thanks so much Majsju! I'm really glad this has been cleared up for me now. I can finally enjoy the series to it's full extent. It has always bugged me, this matter.

 

You said that he can't open up a hole from inside, and that someone must do it from the outside, but how can he be poking/weakening the bore then? Isn't that not feasible?

[Nasty Butler]

I guess the main concern with the Dark One breaking free is that he would remake the world however he wanted.  An example of something similar would be like something like what happened on Meet the Robinsons.  Except I don't think the DO would make the world with a bunch of robot hat factories.  But it would be a pretty bleak and horrible world.  Kinda like a living hell, I imagine.

[Majsju]

Thanks so much Majsju! I'm really glad this has been cleared up for me now. I can finally enjoy the series to it's full extent. It has always bugged me, this matter.

 

You said that he can't open up a hole from inside, and that someone must do it from the outside, but how can he be poking/weakening the bore then? Isn't that not feasible?

 

Well, only RJ could answer the Hows and Whys here, so I might be way off with this illustration...

Imagine a concrete wall. You can not punch through it with your bare hands. However, if someone makes a small hole in it, you have something to work with. You can start breaking of tiny, tiny pieces, one at a time. Eventually, you have a hole big enough to get your fist through it, and with your fit free, you can use tools on the outside.

 

Ok, a very crude illustration, I know. But it works in my head ;D

[Thor]

he will break the wheel and cause time to become linear (like ours).

 

he's a fool if he thought he will be victorious though.  only a greater power can break a power and then you are trapped again. 

 

even if the wheel becomes linear, something else will still stop him.  namely, the balance.  evil cannot exist without good, if everything is evil, then there is no evil.

 

hum but maybe that is what he wants?  maybe he doesn't want to be evil anymore. so he destroys the wheel to make everyone evil like him.

[Midean]

he will break the wheel and cause time to become linear (like ours).

 

he's a fool if he thought he will be victorious though.  only a greater power can break a power and then you are trapped again. 

 

even if the wheel becomes linear, something else will still stop him.  namely, the balance.  evil cannot exist without good, if everything is evil, then there is no evil.

 

hum but maybe that is what he wants?  maybe he doesn't want to be evil anymore. so he destroys the wheel to make everyone evil like him.

 

The DO states he will re-create the world the way he wants, thus he has abilities to rival the creator. I think if he has this kind of power, he can remove the need for a balance for good/evil and just make everything pure evil.

 

[Vambram]

On June 12th, Brandon Sanderson posted on his website an answer to a reader's email that he received which covers this very subject. I will post it here for y'all to discuss, agree and/or disagree with to your heart's content.

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/796/Reader-Mail

 

Next, Don writes:

 

"I wanted to comment on the general impression that nothing BIG changes with each turning of the Wheel, i.e., history repeats itself. It's mentioned in the books and has been confirmed by RJ in interviews. I take issue with this, however. The DO can influence the world AND he is outside the Pattern and the turning of the Wheel. History doesn't repeat for the DO. In his quest to break the Wheel, why would he repeat the same steps over and over again, knowing they don't work? He remembers and learns with each turning of the Wheel. Because of this, I feel that the possibility exists that something "different" could happen, and that perhaps this something "different" might happen at the end of this series. No one really agrees with me, though."

 

 

 

 

I wanted to answer this one, since there has been a lot of talk about Warbreaker on the blog lately, and I wanted to do something for the Wheel of Time readers. Don, you're actually quite right. The Dark One CAN stop the Wheel from turning. Indeed, this is his goal. So far, history has repeated for the Dark One--but only because he has failed at his attempts to unravel the Pattern.

 

Now, the theory websites can go into all of this in much more depth (and specificity) than I can. I'm no replacement for Robert Jordan when it comes to continuity and cannon within the Wheel of Time world. (Except where it comes to the last volume.) Many questions and thoughts like this are better sent toward Bob at the Encyclopedia WoT or on the forums at Theoryland or Dragonmount (or on any of the other excellent websites.) However, this particular topic was one I decided I needed to delve into during my research for the final books. If I didn't understand the Dark One's motivations and goals, I didn't think I could do the Last Battle justice. And so, I can state with reasonable authority that the Dark One is indeed capable of doing what you say. Though, it should be noted that in many cases, the Dark One's actions will repeat themselves--he will try the same ploys, though I can't speak for certain on how much he has varied those over the years.. But I can promise that just because he has failed in the past doesn't mean he will fail again.

 

This series could end with the Dark One breaking the Wheel and destroying the Pattern. That is what is at stake.

 

 

[Builder]

Nice find Vambram, and I think I can understand the concrete idea Maj. Seems like Rand is gonna have some tough work to do but he just have to do it otherwise they are all effed up for all eternity.

[Mr Ares]

I reckon if the Dark One breaks free he can remove the "Wheel of Time" aspect on reality that spins out heroes and whatnot.

I reckon he will as well. Specifically, He would remove the "time" aspect. The Dragon will never again be reborn, because there will be no ever again for him to be born into. After all, destroying time is both His stated goal and the reason Ishy follows Him.

I've also heard talk that the DO will remake time in the fashion that is IRL. It won't go in a big circle, but rather in a linear "movement".

It won't. It won't go at all, line or circle.

[Dunderdan]

Ok, it seems like theres a consensus about the DO breaking the wheel if he breaks free. Id like to add though, that change doesnt require a linear time, as Majsju suggests. Replacing the wheel with a different theme would be change too. I.e. using the wheel for evil purposes instead of the current good ones. Im not sure I understand the reasons for the DO to destroy the wheel itself, which I think RJ has described as an extremely advanced computer program. Imo he "only" needs to remove the Dragon influence. Thats what Id try to do if I were the DO.

 

Making time linear isnt evil in itself is it? And I dont see any guarantees of evil prospering just because things arent following a circular pattern. But then again, perhaps his actions arent dictated by a long term logic, but rather an ambtion based on chaos. Killing the wheel would indeed upset the world as we know it.

 

[Mr Ares]

Im not sure I understand the reasons for the DO to destroy the wheel itself.

Kill time, destroy order.

[Gentled Ben]

Ok, it seems like theres a consensus about the DO breaking the wheel if he breaks free. Id like to add though, that change doesnt require a linear time, as Majsju suggests. Replacing the wheel with a different theme would be change too. I.e. using the wheel for evil purposes instead of the current good ones. Im not sure I understand the reasons for the DO to destroy the wheel itself, which I think RJ has described as an extremely advanced computer program. Imo he "only" needs to remove the Dragon influence. Thats what Id try to do if I were the DO.

 

Making time linear isnt evil in itself is it? And I dont see any guarantees of evil prospering just because things arent following a circular pattern. But then again, perhaps his actions arent dictated by a long term logic, but rather an ambtion based on chaos. Killing the wheel would indeed upset the world as we know it.

 

But what is evil beyond worship of self? The DO wants what he wants when he wants it, and he does not care who or what is harmed in the process. What isn't evil about that? Semirhage wants to pleasure herself; she wants a little immediate gratification. There's no deep motive behind her torture--she simply does it because it makes her feel good, and what makes her feel good is more important to her than what makes others suffer, obviously. Asmodean wanted to live forever and be the greatest artist of all time. He wanted it enough to give his own mother to myrddraal and maim any artist by whom he felt threatened. Demandred just wants a little love and appreciation, some respect for his accomplishments, the approval of his peers. That's all he really wants, and he'll feed the populace to trollocs until they shower him with the adoration he deserves. Lanfear wants her undying love to be reciprocated, and who cannot identify with the pain of unrequited love? There is nothing inherently wrong with what these characters want, it is the fact that they will go to any lengths to get it that makes it evil. It's okay to think you deserve something nice and want it; it's evil to destroy another in order to get it. The DO is evil because he will destroy everything to satisfy his own selfish wants. Self-worship, putting one's self ahead of all others--that's the great evil.

[Chel Vanin]

I don't think the DO was loved as a child.