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Characters we're just not sure about


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As for the debate on Weiramon's Darkfriend-ness, I think the same evidence that supports him as a DF, also paints him as the fool he is. It's another case of Jordan keeping the reader out of the loop until the (you-know-what) hits the fan (Ex. Couladin having his own two dragons). Gotta love it though.

 

As for Noal/Jain Charin being a Darkfriend...I think that it's a downright fallacy (couldn't think of another phrase). First off, in response to Titan Orion's post, the fact that he was watching a Darkfriend's house doesn't indicate he was one. He was simply spying on them (like Elayne had Master Hark do in Caemlyn).

 

I think it's fairly obvious that Noal and Jain are one in the same yet the fact that Mr. Jordan hasn't explicitly stated that does not make completely confirm it.

 

I think it is possible that Noal/Jain is a sleeper agent. The BWB states that in the AoL, people who were sent to try to attain a truce with the Shadow came back and sabotaged the efforts of the Light without being aware of what they were doing. Ishamael's quote to Rand in TEotW seems to indicate this: "Jain Farstrider, a hero... whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me." However, I think that it would have "activated" by now because of his proximity to one of the ta'avern.

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As for Noal/Jain Charin being a Darkfriend...I think that it's a downright fallacy (couldn't think of another phrase). First off, in response to Titan Orion's post, the fact that he was watching a Darkfriend's house doesn't indicate he was one

 

Well the idea wasnt so bad if you read the bit at the Silver Circuit, where Noal is stood with Sammael, Graendal and Lady Shiane. Not much fallacy involved there if you read the whole post. I already poked a hole in my own theory though in my post right after

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in the beginning of book 5 there is that old man in grendals palace..

 

could that be noal?

 

and i always wondered who the darkfreind tinker was at the beginning of book 2?

 

and i was never quite sure of Aram

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in the beginning of book 5 there is that old man in grendals palace..

could that be noal?

Fires of Heaven?  We do not see Graendal's palace during any time in that book.  The earliest we see the place is Lord of Chaos, and I take Noal was in Ebou Dar during that book.

 

and i always wondered who the darkfreind tinker was at the beginning of book 2?

and i was never quite sure of Aram

The tinker darkfriend was not Aram.

 

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As for Noal/Jain Charin being a Darkfriend...I think that it's a downright fallacy (couldn't think of another phrase). First off, in response to Titan Orion's post, the fact that he was watching a Darkfriend's house doesn't indicate he was one

 

Well the idea wasnt so bad if you read the bit at the Silver Circuit, where Noal is stood with Sammael, Graendal and Lady Shiane. Not much fallacy involved there if you read the whole post. I already poked a hole in my own theory though in my post right after

 

Sammael and Graendal were not at the horse race at the Silver Circuit. Only Lady Shiane was. Since the barrel man was Noal, he could be watching someone he knew/suspected was a DarkFriend. He did the same to the Black Ajah Aes Sedai in Ebou Dar.

 

in the beginning of book 5 there is that old man in grendals palace..

 

could that be noal?

 

and i always wondered who the darkfreind tinker was at the beginning of book 2?

 

and i was never quite sure of Aram

 

It could possibly be Noal. It would fit into him being heavily Compelled and a sleeper agent. However, I think it's very likely it's just Alsalam. She does have great control over him and they are in the same region.

 

Aram wasn't a DarkFriend. He was just heavily/negatively influenced by Masema.

 

in the beginning of book 5 there is that old man in grendals palace..

could that be noal?

Fires of Heaven?  We do not see Graendal's palace during any time in that book.  The earliest we see the place is Lord of Chaos, and I take Noal was in Ebou Dar during that book.

 

No...Neemo was right. The scene with Alsalam was in TFoH aka book five. It was from Rahvin's pov and we see Alsalam /the old man as Graendal was closing her gateway. They discuss Asmodean's "betrayal" and other things.

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Fires of Heaven?  We do not see Graendal's palace during any time in that book.
Try rereading the Prologue. Rahvin's pov, when Graendal Travels in for the meeting, we see a glimpse of her palace then.
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Someone mentioned Taim as a maybe darkfriend.

 

Well, he sent the 4 Ashamen (Torval, Gedwyn, Rochaid, Kismen) to kill Rand in his palace.  It says so outright.  And Aginor/Dashiva went along for the ride.  I don't know why Aginor would obey a mere darkfriend, but I could see him obeying a stronger forsaken - Demandred, Ishmael, or Sammael. 

 

Recall Demandred was in the pit, and the Dark One stated "let the lord of chaos rule" and in the last book Taim spoke that very saying to the Reds as they negotiated with him over bonding men.  Taim up on a throne of red and black?  Demandred's colors?

 

Then there's Lews Therin's reaction every time he spots Taim - his very first words were "Sammael and Demandred always hated me, no matter what honors I gave them...."  Demandred never loses his cool, and neither does Taim.  Taim absolutely hated being awarded the sword and dragon pins....

 

Eliza and Elza are darkfriends, the text says so outright.  I think Weiramon is also, and I'm mighty suspicious of Verin. 

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Taim is not Demandred, Jordan said so himself. I noticed in another thread that you posited that "Death took him" was a reference to Moridin killing Asmodean. Jordan has also said that this is not so. Maybe this resource will help: http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/

It covers lots of good observations like the ones you've made.

Elza Penfell is of the Black Ajah, but who is Eliza?

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my list

 

Noal, i dont think that he is a DF, but he is somehow being influenced by ishy.  But, he can act himself at times too, because he saved Mat in the alley from the golham

Maesama

i had 3 Aes Sedai sisters, that i was unsure about, who were close to egwene: Sheriam,(she at least was tortured by Aran'gar to get information about sitters), i cant remember the others :(

Verin and caddy i think are just ruthless in their persuit of the Light's goals, and will do anything to do them

Foz and Snake people; the peom that Tuon says to Mat, "the foxes and snakes on old Hob's hill" (after he tells her how he knew he would marry her)

Elaida

 

Not DF's

Tuon

 

 

thats alot of words for me, I hope i didnt spell anything too bad

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We have plenty of POVs from Elaida and can see from them that she is not a darkfriend. We also have plenty of POVs from Alviarin that show Elaida is not of the Black.

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I think there are just some societies that don't leave much room for Darkfriends.  There don't seem to be many Aiel Darkfriends, nor Sea Folk Darkfriends and also I think Tuon said that there just weren't that many Seanchan who would choose to follow the Shadow.  Other than that there seem to be a healthy dose in other societies.

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I think there are just some societies that don't leave much room for Darkfriends.  There don't seem to be many Aiel Darkfriends, nor Sea Folk Darkfriends and also I think Tuon said that there just weren't that many Seanchan who would choose to follow the Shadow.  Other than that there seem to be a healthy dose in other societies.

Personally I wouldn't buy anything that Tuon would say about the Seanchan and their lack of Dark Friends.  All Seanchan, especially the Blood, seem to have quite an elevated view of themselves and their culture.  For example, Tuon's scoffing at Mat talking about Trollocs and shadowspawn because she thought they were fairy tales.  The Seanchan seem to not believe much in the Shadow, at least not that it has any real power or size in its forces.

  I think that Suroth is a good example of that.  It was easy for her to be a dark friend in Seanchan because the Shadow hasn't had a presence there for so long, that people don't even think/worry about it anymore.  Elbar, the guy she sent to go kill Tuon, was a dark friend as well.  The only reason we haven't heard much about Seanchan Dark Friends is because we don't get a lot of time in Seanchan POV, but we obviously see a lot of Randland people's views so we see DFs all the time.  I hope that made sense. 

  I do agree about the Aiel, though.  Their culture is all about honor to yourself and everyone around you, so a DF is viewed as being very dishonorable since they are betraying not only themselves but their whole culture.  Aiel would rather die or be tortured than give up their honor.

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Taim up on a throne of red and black? Demandred's colors?
No, Ishamael/Moridin's. And neither he, nor Demandred, nor any other Chosen is Taim. Taim is Taim is Taim, he is himself and no-one else is him, nor is he anyone else.
I'm mighty suspicious of Verin.
Verin is not a Darkfriend. She is still bound to the Three Oaths.
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Taim is Taim is Taim, he is himself and no-one else is him, nor is he anyone else.

 

I like how you covered it from all angles there. You do know it wont be the last time though, dont you?

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Taim is Taim is Taim, he is himself and no-one else is him, nor is he anyone else.
I like how you covered it from all angles there. You do know it wont be the last time though, dont you?
I don't expect miracles.
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Taim is Taim is Taim, he is himself and no-one else is him, nor is he anyone else.
I like how you covered it from all angles there. You do know it wont be the last time though, dont you?
I don't expect miracles.

 

Funny you should say that...

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I think there are just some societies that don't leave much room for Darkfriends.  There don't seem to be many Aiel Darkfriends, nor Sea Folk Darkfriends and also I think Tuon said that there just weren't that many Seanchan who would choose to follow the Shadow.  Other than that there seem to be a healthy dose in other societies.

Personally I wouldn't buy anything that Tuon would say about the Seanchan and their lack of Dark Friends.  All Seanchan, especially the Blood, seem to have quite an elevated view of themselves and their culture.  For example, Tuon's scoffing at Mat talking about Trollocs and shadowspawn because she thought they were fairy tales.  The Seanchan seem to not believe much in the Shadow, at least not that it has any real power or size in its forces.

  I think that Suroth is a good example of that.  It was easy for her to be a dark friend in Seanchan because the Shadow hasn't had a presence there for so long, that people don't even think/worry about it anymore.  Elbar, the guy she sent to go kill Tuon, was a dark friend as well.  The only reason we haven't heard much about Seanchan Dark Friends is because we don't get a lot of time in Seanchan POV, but we obviously see a lot of Randland people's views so we see DFs all the time.  I hope that made sense. 

  I do agree about the Aiel, though.  Their culture is all about honor to yourself and everyone around you, so a DF is viewed as being very dishonorable since they are betraying not only themselves but their whole culture.  Aiel would rather die or be tortured than give up their honor.

 

Well, Suroth once points out that there are very few Atha'an Shadar (Old Tongue for People of the Shadow) amoung the suldam so we can take that as there not being that many DarkFriends in Seanchan as there are in Randland.

 

It makes sense. The Shadow doesn't have as much of an influence in that continent.

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I find the three most suspicious characters to be Rand, Mat, and Perrin. I mean three trumped up fanboys magically turning out to be super awesome and then marrying super rich women, seems like a bunch of gold diggers to me!

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I find the three most suspicious characters to be Rand, Mat, and Perrin. I mean three trumped up fanboys magically turning out to be super awesome and then marrying super rich women, seems like a bunch of gold diggers to me!

Rand/Mat/Perrin do not seem to be gold diggers, nor their spouses/lovers.  None of them ever sought riches from the other.

Mat was already rich before he married Tuon (through his gambling/luck).

Rand probably has gained riches through the countries he conquered and/or through the items the Aiel took.  And he has not yet married (though he will).

 

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