How will Rand be "helped to die" by the Seanchan woman?

[Drizzt]

Does anyone have any ideas as to how the Dragon Reborn will be helped to die? For that matter does it even mean death, or is Rand going to survive even with the prophecy of the seanchan woman, with the great amounts of power, who will help him die.

[Blade]

I think it'll be something akin to people today being medically 'dead' but then later coming back to life. Basically I think She'll put him in a state where he'll be 'dead' but also that Nynaeve (or possibly someone else but in most likely hood Nynaeve) will be able to miraculously heal him and bring him back to life.

[Cloudz]

im thinkin Rand and LTT will merge into a new being.

so Rand and LTT will die.

that is what im thinking atleast.

[Luckers]

I actually designed my bodyswap theory to answer that in part.

 

The body swap theory is based on my attempt to address the issue of confliction of prophecy. People had come up with any number of explanations that addressed and answered individual prophecies, but the problem was that there were numerous prophecies that addressed the death of Rand. Together, they established a sequence of requirements for that incident. The complete list of those prophecies that are relevent are as follows.

 

 

Quote

EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

 

Which possibly connects to...

 

 

Quote

EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]

 

 

And maybe this too...

 

 

Quote

EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

 

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it. [tEotW]

 

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't. [ACOS: 33, A Bath, 526]

 

 

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

 

Quote

NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255]

 

 

Which ties to...

 

 

Quote

WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other.

 

 

Quote

AELFINN ANSWER: He [Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would live, you must die. [LOC: 26, Connecting Lines, 373]

 

He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

 

 

Quote

PERRIN DREAMING: Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.

 

Which ties to...

 

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: a beggar's staff. [tEotW]

 

 

 

In any case, individually there are answers to all. My attempt was to look at what, as a whole, they established. Too me, this sequence layed down a certain set of requirements.

 

ON RANDS DEATH.

 

1. Rand must actually die. Or, at least, some aspect of him (this ties into the definition of death in this world, which i will address later). In any case the language is fairly clear, too clear for it to be a faked death, or just people assuming he's dead in the event that he disapears. He must die.

 

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

3. That some aspect of himself must survive that death... and i mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resusitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. The language is concurrent. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives. That forbids balefire too, by the way.

 

Now, death in this world is established by the death of the physical body in which a person resides. Their souls do not die at this time, yet they are still termed as dead. This has been shown many times, both in the nature of the Wheel itself, and specifically in the deaths and recycling of the Forsaken. Death=the death of the body.

 

ON THE BODY-SWAP

 

So, with those requirements in mind, lets look at some of the other prophecies, specifically those deal with Rand blending with another man, Rand putting on masks and becoming them, Rand being a beggar, and so on.

 

Now, Rand assumes that Min's viewing regarding him blending with another man refers to Lews Therin, yet at the time Min reacts with disbelief, as if something about that did not sit right with her. I suggest the possibility that it is in fact Mordin that this refers to.

 

The actual facilitating factor of the body-swap is the mental link that Rand forms with Moridin during the incident in which their balefire streams crossed in Shadar Logoth in book 7. Since then, we have seen that link grow increasingly stronger. Moreover, we have seen that the link is apparent when Rand siezes the power. Saidin is the contributing factor of the link, which is likely why Moridin has given over its use entirely, something he never did before in all his three thousand years.

 

In any case by KoD we see that the link has grown strong enough for Rand to actively percieve Moridin, as opposed to a nauseating jumble of perceptions, or a blurry half-image. I believe that it will continue to grow. Then, during the final assault at Shayoul Ghoul, i believe that Rand and Moridin will fight each other, and that Rand will sever Moridin's connection to the dark one, as he did once before. Moridin will draw on saidin, and that will complete the link resulting in the bodyswap.

 

CONCLUSION AND TIE IN

 

Now, thats all very good, and whatnot, but whats the ultimate tie in that i suggested was the reason i constructed this theory?

 

Quite simply, it fits. After this i believe that Moridin in Rands body will escape, and the Dark One will be defeated. In the epilogue we will come to Moridin, hiding as a beggar, feeling despair, yet some hope that he may yet recover things. Alivia and Rand will approach and kill him. Rand is actually dead, in the sense that this world defines death: that his body is dead. Yet he lives, and the death and the living are concurrent. Alivia and Rand collaborated in the death. He blurred with another man, and one did live and one did die. Then there is the fact that i dont see our hero ending up as a beggar at any stage, and then there is the ongoing unhealable damage that RJ is inflicting on him.

 

I dont nessasarily like the bodyswap. I just think it is the only thing that fits all the facts, and is the most likely to occur.

 

 

I think it'll be something akin to people today being medically 'dead' but then later coming back to life. Basically I think She'll put him in a state where he'll be 'dead' but also that Nynaeve (or possibly someone else but in most likely hood Nynaeve) will be able to miraculously heal him and bring him back to life.

 

In addition to the prophetic issues i raised above--to be medically dead and then be healed presents problems. For one unless extreme cold is involved mental degradation occurs quite rapidly. I doubt Nynaeve would be able to recreate the electro-chemical state of the brain, what would be revived would be a vegetable. I suppose that could be fixed by cold, or him not being dead more than a few minutes before she revived him.

 

There is also the issue of the soul which departs the body after death--and, if the Dark One's methods of recycling are any guage it departs it quite swiftly. Unless Nynaeve had someone nearby to capture the soul on the moment of death (not impossible, but highly unlikely) then there is difficulties with that too.

[Master Norry]

Wow. Nice.

[luftstark]

Nice theory, i hadn't seen it before as you put it.. really convincing... just have 2 questions:

 

1- What about the doble sunrise part of the prophecy? I recall that there was some sort of discussion (can't recall the actual wording of the prophecy thou) ... i din't see it covered in your theory.

 

2-RJ has stated that the black cords are not the link with the DO and are not related with the TP, so that part of the theory (rand severes the conection and Moridin has to use the OP) has a problem... althou it could be countered by some other TP-related problem as.. well.. the DO being defeated before the merge or something like that.

[arkinia]

"If you would life, you must die."

 

Here's a strange thought of mine. What if! The two "you"'s in the quote are referring to two different people? Like Lews Therin has to die for Rand to live. Like when Min has the viewing that Rand is going to merge with someone and one dies and the other doesn't Rand obviously thinks it is Lews Therin leaving his head. (But for one reason or another it turns out it isn't?) Maybe it's connected. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this. Does this seem plausible at all?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lucker's theory is well reasoned, but I have a different one, that I've also presented before, so I'll also recap it also.

 

Near the end of The Dragon Reborn, after Moiraine kills Bel'al and Ba'alzy does his bad Batman drop-in, the first thing that he does is attempt to rip Rand's soul out of his body.  Rand has the uncanny ability to duplicate any weave he has seen.  Having seen what Ba'alzy tried on him, he can now explain to Alivia how that weave works.

 

At the point-in-time where he knows TG is imminent, he will have Alivia rip his soul out of his body.  By not resisting in any way she "helps him die" rather than "kills" him.

 

Immediately after Rand dies, the Dragon soul goes to T'a'R.

 

Nynaeve witnessed what Moggy did when she cast Birgitte's soul out of T'a'R.  Being highly motivated "to heal even death," she will have worked out how to accomplish what Moggy did.  Using one of the dream angreal, she will then enter T'a'R and either find or meet the Dragon at a prearranged place, and do the same thing to him that Moggy did to Birgitte.

 

Just as was the case with Birgitte, the Dragon will re-enter the world very weak and fading fast.  That's where his wives come in.  They will be waiting and, again, just like with Birgitte, Bond him in order to keep him alive.  And, just like Birgitte, it will still be a chancy thing.  That's where Egwene's Dream about the man on the cot, and Nicola's boat and "he who is dead, yet lives," foretelling comes in.  There isn't time to let him recover fully.  They have to get him back to the battle before everything is lost.  So, they move him by boat even though he might still die along the way. ( the scale tipping first one way then the other )

 

At Rand's "death" it is Logain who steps in and holds the Forces of the Light together until the Dragon shows up.  That's the glory that he earns, what Min sees in his aura.

 

Going back to Birgitte again for how things will work out for the Dragon, we know that when the soul is in T'a'R it possesses ALL of the memories from all of it's past incarnations.  The Dragon soul will have all of Rand's memories and all of LTT's memories and all of the memories of any other incarnations it has ever had.  The Dragon will retain those memories for some short, but appreciable, time after being cast out, just as Birgitte retained hers.

 

Enter The Dragon.  In full possession of all of his skills and all of his memories.  All of his Powers and Talents.

 

Just as Birgitte entered the world looking like Birgitte Silverbow, The Dragon will most likely enter the world looking like Lews Therin Telamon.

 

Finally, The Dragon, looking like LTT,  will accomplish what he set out to do 3000 years ago, and defeat the DO.

[Drizzt]

I am extremely impressed by both Luckers' theory and Bob T Dwarf's. Luckers seems to be very well reasoned, but BT Dwarf, you have some serious dramatic appeal which is thoroughly conceivable and achievable for the characters. It also deals with the seemingly endless amounts of knowledge that Rand has yet to gain in order to defeat the DO and then instate a new regime and regain order to the world he is quickly tearing apart. 

[Sylvia]

Okay Mr. Dwarf, riddle me this...Why the fuzzy would Rand want his soul to be ripped out of his body, right before TG, so he has to go fight the Last Battle, without his full strength? That just doesn't seem very well thought out AT ALL. I'm sorry dude, I don't think he's that dumb.

[jaybig]

Sylvia, Rand doesn't know about Birgette yet (as far as I can remember). I don't think Elayne or any of the wondergirls has told him.  I'm guessing that when he finds out that a soul tied to the wheel can be ripped out of the dream world, he can describe the weave that was trying to rip the soul out of his body.  This would allow Nyneave to piece that together with what Moggie did and figure out how to get Rand back in time for the last battle.

 

So, he can't have the best timing because, 1. He doesn't know when the last battle is coming and 2. He doesn't know about birgette. 

 

It would be awesome if Rand could have all the knowledge of his past lives.

[naxxan]

I'll agree that if Rand were to end up in TAR Nynaeve could probably piece together what was done to Birgette.  The logistical hurdles of Rand explaining with Saidin something for Alivia to try with saidar are what seems pretty severe to me.  Wouldn't it be like trying to teach someone sign language over the phone? 

 

Also IIRC the fundamentals of how things are done with saidin and saidar are different.  When Egwene and Elayne try to teach Rand to channel they comment that women are taught never to take heat inside of themselves to stop fire, that it could lead to catching yourself on fire.

 

I guess the short of it all is, that if healing untrained can kill, imagine what messing up while trying to purposefully rip a soul out could do.  They might accidentally make Rand have that inside-out eyelid look forever.  Hmm... that would explain the bandages over the eyes thing...

[Kaznen]

If the "Dragon" was ripped from TAR right before the LB he would look like Rand, not LTT.  I remember it somewhere that "heroes of the horn" look like they did in their last life when called or seen in TAR.

 

I personally think Rand will die and when Mat blows the horn he come again as one of the heroes.  And it will be Rand not LTT.

 

And if Rand dies it falls to logic that the people who would keep the forces of light together are his right and left hands, Perrin and Mat, not Logain.  Mat and Perrin are Ta'veren after all.

[Aemon raHal]

.. the "Dragon" soul in Tel'aran'rhiod probably wouldn't look like either Rand or Lews Therin.

 

Why ?

 

People think of Birgette in the stories as a blond in a braid. In Tel'aran'rhoid she was a blond in a braid.

There's no reason that the soul of the Dragon won't have the 'physical' appearance it had before 'he' died.

Arthur Hawkwing brought back by the Horn is a soul bound to the Horn and so wasn't always called Arthur Hawking and so didn't always have the same physical appearance.

 

Anyway, where do you get the opinion that the 'Dragon' soul wouldn't look like Rand in Tel'aran'rhoid?

 

Ok, it doesn't say anywhere that it would (so none of this "please back it up with a quote" sh!te that goes around) but where does it say that is doesn't (please back it up with a quote :D )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[callandor]

hmmm... on some of the viewings and prophecies Luckers showed, i always thought that him dieing was him actually dying, but "he who lives" is the essence of him. If Ishamael is righ, then Rand and the DO have been fighting forever. So Rand is just one of these incarnations of the force that fights the DO. That is what i think the "masks" are, the previous incarnations of himself. when he dies, he will go to TAR (possibly? and become all of them. Maybe the "dragon" soul will look like rand, or whoever it's previous incarnation was. maybe before rand was born, it was LTT. and, if there was one before LTT, it was him before LTT was born. Birgite might have looked like what she looked like now the last time she was incarnated, and stories got mixed up to include her description like that in all of them. I am thinking that a person who is tied to the wheel looks like their previous incarnation when they are in TAR.

 

"too live you must die" i always thought was referring to his spirit living, or the "dragon", not Rand himself. To keep coming back in different lives, he must die eventually. His soul will live, but Rand will be gone.

 

hmm... this is all confusing. :P

[arkinia]

Yeah, I think I read somewhere that at one point Birgitte was a man.

[a5m]

I'd be happy with Bob T Dwarf's conclusion to the story line. It's going to be interesting to see how the series turns out.

[mb]

About Heroes of the Horn, it seems that their appearance would be at least similar to (if not exactly like) some past spinning out since present age characters are able to identify them.

 

About the viewing, there would be at least these ways on how Alivia would help Rand die:

-cause him to accept his death shortly before it occurs

-assist in the actual death

-do the actual killing

 

[arkinia]

I'd say that it is possible for the heroes to look wildly different, not only because they might switch sexes, but if not and they are wide known heroes why doesn't everyone on the street Birgitte passes go "Blood and ashes! It's Birgitte Silverbow!" And even if they were just strangely similar I'd suspect Birgitte would get more strange glances and such.

[arkinia]

Are you sure? I have a vague memory of reading it wasn't always the same. Now I want to go scouring my books.

[arkinia]

Eh, maybe I'm thinking of thoughts Osan'gar had or something(if we even got a PoV from him lol). I think remember someone thinking something like "...don't even know if [they'd] be brought back as [same sex]..."

 

Then I could just be really confused.

[Majsju]

Are you sure? I have a vague memory of reading it wasn't always the same. Now I want to go scouring my books.

 

I can pretty much guarantee you have never read that.

 

And I disagree with RAWs theory that the incarnation in T'A'R (and that comes when the Horn is sounded) is some iconic representation of the root persona. I think the physical appearance is that of their last incarnation. But there is no reason why anyone would recognise Birgitte. Noone in the world saw her when she was last walking around. And believing that the Heroes are reincarnated over and over gain is one thing, believing the chick who just walked down the street is one of them just because she is blond and has a bow, quite a different story. People like easy explanations, and the easy explanation there would be that some girl with a decent skill with the bow have read stories about Birgitte way too many times, and tries to look and be like her.

[Delirium]

And I disagree with RAWs theory that the incarnation in T'A'R (and that comes when the Horn is sounded) is some iconic representation of the root persona. I think the physical appearance is that of their last incarnation.

 

May I ask why?  Do we have evidence that the golden haired version of Birgitte is her latest incarnation?  Or that the "Hawkwing" Rand saw at Falme looked exactly like Artur Hawkwing?  Is Rand somehow more the Dragon than Lews Therin, or any of the other predecessors?

 

I guess if we had dates for the stories in The Flame, the Blade, and the Heart, it would help date the golden haired appearance of Birgitte.  The story of Anselan and Barashelle is from the Trolloc Wars, and is in the book with the story of Birgitte and Gaidal (by those names).  However, the story of Rogosh Eagle-Eye is in there too, and he was in Hawkwing's court.  So, there is really no way to date the appearance of golden-haired Birgitte.  And given the various periods she seems to remember, no reason to believe that the golden haired Birgitte is her most recent appearance.

 

 

On these boards, there has been speculation in the past about how Moghedien knew Birgitte and why she seemed to hold a grudge against her.

 

In the BWB, it is noted that she acted as a spy for the Shadow in LTTs staff.  The Spider was able to keep her true allegiance hidden for several years and caused several major disasters.  One of her plots for bringing down Lews Therin was foiled by Birgitte Silverbow, then known as Teadra. This made Moghedien swear to take a gruesome revenge on the hero.

 

While it is unknown how she was exposed, she barley escaped capture and had to sabotage a public transport system to escape capture, resulting in several thousand casualties. 

 

I believe Birgitte was the one to expose The Spiders true allegiance, foiling her plan to bring down LTT.  If the body she wears in T'A'R is the same as her last incarnation in the Age of Legends, this would explain how Moghedien was able to recognize her, as we have no evidence that she is somehow able to recognize souls.

 

 

[Majsju]

May I ask why?  Do we have evidence that the golden haired version of Birgitte is her latest incarnation?  Or that the "Hawkwing" Rand saw at Falme looked exactly like Artur Hawkwing?  Is Rand somehow more the Dragon than Lews Therin, or any of the other predecessors?

 

Because it makes the most sense. I do not really see the Heroes as iconic representations in the sense you seem to. Rather, people based on the persona that originally was bound to the Horn. Incarnation 1 dies, goes to T'A'R as they were, until they are reborn as incarnation 2, who dies and goes to T'A'R as they were, and so on. A common, and strong theme in WOT is that people, no matter how powerful they might be, at the end of the day is just people. And in the light of that, it makes sense that the Heroes' appearance in T'a'r is that of their last incarnation, rather than some pseudodivine iconity (Yeah, I totally made that word up ;D)

 

 

[Luckers]

Nice theory, i hadn't seen it before as you put it.. really convincing... just have 2 questions:

 

1- What about the doble sunrise part of the prophecy? I recall that there was some sort of discussion (can't recall the actual wording of the prophecy thou) ... i din't see it covered in your theory.

 

2-RJ has stated that the black cords are not the link with the DO and are not related with the TP, so that part of the theory (rand severes the conection and Moridin has to use the OP) has a problem... althou it could be countered by some other TP-related problem as.. well.. the DO being defeated before the merge or something like that.

 

1. You mean "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed"? Much like "his blood on the rocks of shayol ghoul" I'm not actually sure if this even speaks to his death. One can bleed without daying, or it could refer to those of his blood dying... but if you were asking the specific about why the day dawns twice.... Dunno. Maybe there will be an eclipse. Maybe his blood will be shed at dawn on two seperate days--as in maybe the word dawn is what sets the time, not the word day.

 

Dunno. We simply don't know enough.

 

2. RJ was asked whether the Black Cords were a connection to the Dark One, to which he replied 'no, thats what Rand thought they were'.

 

That being said, when Rand cuts them in tDR, Ishamael loses access to the True Power. So whatever these cords are, when cut the person loses their ability to draw on the True Power. My guess is that they are the Chosen Mark--the Mark embued by the Dark One in his Chosen which amongst other things compels obeidience from the Shadowspawn. They arn't a connection to the Dark One, but without them one cannot gain the permission from the Dark One to use the True Power.

 

Thats all conjecture though; whats not is that cutting those threads cuts a person off from the True Power.