It seems to me...

[Frances]

that forces of the Dark One are up for some major whoopass come Tarmon Gaidon.

 

If the only channelers the DO can count on are Taim's Asha'man, Black Ajah, and maybe some Aiel Wise Ones, Sea Folk Windfinders and Seanchan damane as well, it seems to me no matter how many Shadowspan and Darkfriends they pull out of the Blight, they can't hope to compete against all the united light side channelers. I don't know the exact numbers in question but it seems to me that at best the darkside could scrape up around 300 channelers(maybe 500, beeing really generous on damane, windfinders and wise ones), while the light side has at least a few thousand channelers including all the novices and the Kin.

 

Not to mention all the angreal and sa'angreal the lightside posseses, especially Calandor and the male Choedan Kal. Rand could probably obliterate everyone all by himself using the Choedan Kal (although I don't see it used in the fighting before his confrontation with the DO/Shaidar Haran/Moridin).

 

Don't know, it seems to me even if they pull millions of Trollocs, Myrddraal and other shadowspawn out of the Blight they'll still get their asses handed to them. I'm basing this conclusion on the fighting we've seen at Dumai's wells and the attack on the manor house in KoD, where a small group of channelers completely destroyed a vast army sent against them.

 

What's your take on all this  ???

 

p.s. first post on this board, sorry if this has been discussed already, it seemed too general a topic to use the search option

[mb]

Tarmon Gaidon I think would be won by the Heroes, not anyone else; unless there is a way to destroy them.

 

We do not know how many each side will have; nor their strengths.

There are some Darkfriend Kin; not just the groups you mentioned.

 

The Darkfriend Ashaman, I am not sure if they would be lead by Taim since Taim's alliance seems uncertain.

 

[Bela]

Tens of thousands of Trollocs and Myydraal were thrown at Rand and co in KoD with seemingly no regret for their loss. This leads me to believe that there will be millions come Tarmon Gaidin.

[Majsju]

Luckers roundup here is quite good. Of course, he is dead wrong on a few things, like his belief that thousands of channelers would come pouring from the Land of madmen, but otherwise it is definitly a good estimate.

[havoc110]

I see it the same way as the original poster.  Unless something drastic happens to the order of battle, Dark is gonna get rolled up.

[Majsju]

While the numbers are stacked in the Lights favour, it is very unlikely that TG will simply be Team Light facing Team Dark on a big field, and then run at eachother until one side surrenders. The shadow knows it is outnumbeed, and will obviously try to adjust its tactics to the reality on the ground. And the shadow is a dirty player. Just look at the darkfriends, a single DF strategically positioned can cause hundreds, maybe thousands of casualties before anyone figures out what is going on. And we still have not seen what lives deep in the Blight the things that fed on the worms.

[42Bonzo88]

    You also need to realize that all of the Light side, right now, is not all united. Rand wants a world against the Dark and right now he has alot of work to do just to get all of the lands that are unified to him to work together. Now add the countries he doesn't have (which alot have been ravaged by the Shaido) he is going to have difficulty convincing them that it wasn't "his" Aiel. Then there's the Senchean, the Borderlanders, the land of the Madmen etc.

 

      He, through other people, has alot of the countries close to joining him, but it has alot to still happen. Then you need them to trust one another to fight united.

 

      Sure, all stories end with a "happily ever after", but this one has a lot of probems to get through before we are there.

[Frances]

Hmm, I agree with the DO and Rand being wildcards, and obviously it can't end up with lightside thrashing darkside without much losses, but I wouldn't say the darkside has the tactical advantage. Shadowspawn can't travel, that's a huge minus right there. The light side can do hit and run tactics using just the channelers and do some serious damage.

 

Undercover darkfriends in the lighside army can do some major damage, I agree.

 

In my initial post I forgot the Horn of Valere, which is another plus for the lighside.

 

     You also need to realize that all of the Light side, right now, is not all united. Rand wants a world against the Dark and right now he has alot of work to do just to get all of the lands that are unified to him to work together. Now add the countries he doesn't have (which alot have been ravaged by the Shaido) he is going to have difficulty convincing them that it wasn't "his" Aiel. Then there's the Senchean, the Borderlanders, the land of the Madmen etc.

 

      He, through other people, has alot of the countries close to joining him, but it has alot to still happen. Then you need them to trust one another to fight united.

 

Sure the lightside is not united at the moment, but Rand has been working on it for the last 8 books, and the prophecies make me believe he'll eventually get everyone cooperating.

 

I think RAW has it right, DO's influence will be the balancing factor between the light and dark.

[Muad Cheade]

I'm not sure the "good guys" will have it so easy or Min's veiwing of them being a few fireflies surrounded by darkness wouldn't be so...bleak. I think Robert Jordan once said that that meant if the three ta'avern were together they just have a better chance of winning.

 

I think the Shadow has a huge number of Shadowspawn in its arsenal. Plus, we don't know exactly how many potential Dreadlords the Dark One has at his disposal. Many characters we haven't had a POV from could be.

 

The Dark One is also more than a wild card. The ability to change reality is insanely powerful and dangerous. We saw what the effects of this can do to a single army when that miasma hit Caraline Damodred's army and pretty much destroyed it completely. Imagine what multiple miasmas can do.

 

I'm pretty sure Rand will unite all of Randland behind his banner yet I doubt that's enough. Remember there have been two major wars against the Shadow: the War of the Shadow and the Trolloc Wars in which all of mankind was united against the Shadow.

          In the War of the Shadow, they had better technology, more powerful channelers and more numerous channelers at that. We know that the were Dreadlords but I'm pretty sure the Light outnumbered them. The Light also had superior generals for most of the war, yet the Light was still fighting a losing battle.

          In the Trolloc Wars, the Light definitely had an advantage in channelers yet there were also fighting a losing battle for the most part. Until they changed their military tactics and Rashima Kerenmosa became Amyrlin did the Light turn the tide of war. However, this also coincided with the disappearance of Ishamael. Had his 50 years not been up, things might've been different.

 

So I think as of now, the Shadow has the advantage. Also, there's the morale. Morale plays a huge factor in every war. I remember reading that in the War of Power when the Light would retake a city the Shadow had taken, there was a massive loss of morale. The same happened when their leaders revealed that the had turned to the Shadow. Ishamael means "Betrayer of Hope" (and his revelation sparked massive riots). After all, if our leaders and some of the world's most powerful people, think there's no hope and join the enemy, what chance does the Light have?

 

 

[Muad Cheade]

Another thing I forgot to add was that in the War of the Shadow and the Trolloc Wars is that the Light was unprepared. While there was the Collapse in the Age of Legends, the Light was not ready for the armies of Trollocs that came out of the Blight. The same goes for the trolloc Wars.

 

As of right now, I don't think the Light or Rand are ready yet. I believe the Last Battle is another Trolloc Wars with Tarmon Gai'don actually being what Lew Therin did with the Hundred Companions and the army of ten thousand he brought with him. Basically, the Strike at Shayol Ghul. They do say history repeats itself.  ;) I think Lan is the only person who realizes this and the army he raises rides to Tarwin's Gap and halts the Shadows first thrust. Whether he lives or dies is speculation.

[Builder]

Wow... I've never thought of it like that. I haven't thought about morale much, and just now realizes it is a major factor, even in WoT. *Goes away in shame*

[Achoo]

The Forsaken can Travel, and do things no one else knows how to do. The Mydraal have some ocult abilities. Also, it's not just Trollocs. There are Worms, things worms are afraid of, grey men, Shadowhounds and gholams. Those last two pose a special threat, since both are nearly invulnerable.

[mb]

The Forsaken can Travel, and do things no one else knows how to do. The Mydraal have some ocult abilities. Also, it's not just Trollocs. There are Worms, things worms are afraid of, grey men, Shadowhounds and gholams. Those last two pose a special threat, since both are nearly invulnerable.

Traveling is not limited to just the Forsaken.  Many other channelers can also.

Forsaken do things no one else knows how to do?  Moghedien told Elayne/Nynaeve/Egwene a bunch of things before she was rescued.  And the channelers that hang around Rand might likely find out information from Semirhage.

 

The proper term for Worms is Jumara.

Darkhounds invulnerable?  A number have been killed.  One by a non-channeler (Perrin).

 

The plural of gholam is gholam.  Just One is known to survive; the other 5 probably died.

As of now, Mat's medallion could probably deal with it.  Elayne or one of the other 3 terangreal makers might make a copy (or copies).

 

[a5m]

We have a number of channelers that have trained to defeat the Golam if they can just put two and two together to come up with four. Unfortunately, two of those are dead now, Vandene and Adeleas. The still leaves Elayne, Aviendha  and Nynaeve. If you're wondering where they trained, it was against Mat when they were traveling to Ebou Dar. Unfortunately, when Elayne first encountered the Golam, it was an unknown with unknown capabilities. Now they know what it is and if they just remember how they "affected" Mat with the power, they have a very good chance of defeating it. Of course, only Elayne will recognize it on sight since she was the only one to see it. 

[CUBAREY]

We have a number of channelers that have trained to defeat the Golam if they can just put two and two together to come up with four. Unfortunately, two of those are dead now, Vandene and Adeleas. The still leaves Elayne, Aviendha  and Nynaeve. If you're wondering where they trained, it was against Mat when they were traveling to Ebou Dar. Unfortunately, when Elayne first encountered the Golam, it was an unknown with unknown capabilities. Now they know what it is and if they just remember how they "affected" Mat with the power, they have a very good chance of defeating it. Of course, only Elayne will recognize it on sight since she was the only one to see it. 

 

Actually i think you are confussing two things. Mat is protected by his emblem from direct channeling but not immune to the effects of the power being used indirectly to harm him. The Golam is immune from the power and just about anything else. They only one who actually knows how to hurt the Golam is Mat. Now if he leant the emblem to Elayne and she could reproduce it then anyone using it might be able to harm and defeat the Golam but that's a far cry from saying that Elayne, Avi and Nyneave are trained to defeat the Golam.

[El Dude]

The only thing i could think of to deal with the gholam would be for a channeler to neutralize it, it would be tricky thou.  This is based on the assumption that the gholams ability to negate channeling works in a manner similar to Mat's medallion, it stops direct flows but not indirect ones.  So a channeler could potentially grab several metal spears with air flows, the gholam could break wooden ones with his hands, and hopefully direct one to stab it.  Then lift the gholam into the air by the spear, which is hopefully barbed, and then stab the other ones through it creating an apex, similar to a pyramid.  This would hold the gholam for a little while and hopefully the would further restrain it until Mat could shove his medallion down its throat in a perfect world.  Although this may be a long shot, it seems like a way a channeler could dispatch of a gholam.  Anyway just my late night musings on how to take down a pesky gholam lol.  Feel free to butcher this plan if you see something wrong with it.

[The Doctor]

I'm not sure how they could study or copy the medallion, even if they did have access to it, since it disperses the flows directed toward it.  It seems to me that it is the product if some other sort of "magic" like The World of Dreams and the wolf speaking thing.

[Mr Ares]

In the War of the Shadow, they had better technology, more powerful channelers and more numerous channelers at that. We know that the were Dreadlords but I'm pretty sure the Light outnumbered them. The Light also had superior generals for most of the war, yet the Light was still fighting a losing battle.

Actually, we know there were no Dreadlords, as RJ said that term was created during the Trolloc Wars, and that in the War of the Power they were all Chosen, or Forsaken to the Light.

 

I'm not sure how they could study or copy the medallion, even if they did have access to it, since it disperses the flows directed toward it. It seems to me that it is the product if some other sort of "magic" like The World of Dreams and the wolf speaking thing.

Considering Nynaeve and Cadsuane have ter'angreal with the same function, I'd say we have no reason to believe that.

[Muad Cheade]

Regardless, the term Dreadlord refers to a channeler who fight for the Shadow so they were still there in the War of the Shadow. No need to argue minute details.

 

I don't believe Cadsuane and Nynaeve's ter'angreal are immune to the Power like Mat's medallion. I believe they just have wells, ter'angreal that can detect men and women's channeling and angreal and sa'angreal but I'm not completely sure. In the Chapter "A Plain Wooden Box" from KoD, it wasn't their ter'angreal that disrupted Semirhage's illusion. Nynaeve knew one of them was channeling but had masked her ability to channel and inverted the weaves and Cadsuane said she could "do something when they got closer." To the best of our knowledge, Mat's medallion is the only one tht can dsisrupt flows of the One Power.

 

That was off the main topic, but the point remains that gholam and darkhounds are nearly unstoppable. No gholam has been recorded to have been destroyed and the only time it was hurt was when it accidentally touched Mat's medallion. Plus, who would want to fight it in close combat with only a medallion as  weapon? The only darkhounds killed so far were killed by a woman who knew the weave for balefire and an expert marksman. The majority of people aren't either one of those.

 

As previously pointed out, Elayne is the only one who can really duplicate ter'angreal. However, she won't be able to channel that frequently due to her pregnancy. Also, how do you use the Power to study a ter'angreal that disrupts the use of the Power? Makes me think duplicating it will be nigh impossible.

 

Back on the original topic, the Shadow pretty much has the advantage in this war.

[a5m]

Actually i think you are confussing two things. Mat is protected by his emblem from direct channeling but not immune to the effects of the power being used indirectly to harm him. The Golam is immune from the power and just about anything else.

 

I think you are the one confused. Where did it say that the Gholam is immune to "just about anything else". The Gholam is immune to direct use of the power. It was made to assassinate Aes Sedai. I can find no reference to the "just about anything else". I maintain that like Mat's Ter'angreal, the gholam's weakness will be indirect use of the power since most  Aes Sedai normal reaction to a thread is to "tie it up with air."

 

I don't believe Cadsuane and Nynaeve's ter'angreal are immune to the Power like Mat's medallion.

 

I believe Cadsuane does have such a medallion as noted by Setalle Anan in KoD.

[Nightstrike]

I don't believe Cadsuane and Nynaeve's ter'angreal are immune to the Power like Mat's medallion.

No, they are like Mat's medallion. RJ's blog:

For Krassos, yes, a channeler could still channel wearing Mat’s amulet.  Cadsuane has one much like it.  And I think that I will complete “Trust” eventually.  I think about doing so every now and then.

[Majsju]

Regardless, the term Dreadlord refers to a channeler who fight for the Shadow so they were still there in the War of the Shadow. No need to argue minute details.

 

 

 

If minute details are wrong, there is definitly a need to argue them.

Dreadlord refers to channelers fighting for the Shadow in the trolloc wars. Channelers fighting for the Shadow in the war of power were called forsaken or chosen, depending on which side of the fence you watch them from.

 

Calling channelers in the war of power dreadlords is pretty much the same as calling BA forsaken.

[Dark Justice]

Do we know if the medallion/jewlery & gholam protects from Balefire?

[Dark Justice]

I thought so, but I had not seen it clarified before, and Balfire seems to not always follow the "rules".

[Muad Cheade]

Regardless, the term Dreadlord refers to a channeler who fight for the Shadow so they were still there in the War of the Shadow. No need to argue minute details.

 

 

 

If minute details are wrong, there is definitly a need to argue them.

Dreadlord refers to channelers fighting for the Shadow in the trolloc wars. Channelers fighting for the Shadow in the war of power were called forsaken or chosen, depending on which side of the fence you watch them from.

 

Calling channelers in the war of power dreadlords is pretty much the same as calling BA forsaken.

 

Regardless, the term refers to channelers who fight for the Shadow as I previously stated. If I saw so and so was a Dreadlord in the War of the Shadow you know he was a channeler who fought for the Shadow even if it is technically "wrong." The same goes for people who say that Taim will be leading the dreadlords at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Anyhoo, back on topic. According to the blog, Robert Jordan said Cadsuane has one that is very much like it." This fits in with what I said about it disrupting "illusions." Also, I don't remember Setalle Anan talking about Cadsuane or her ter'angreal in KoD. In fact, I think the only thing she said was that she was an Aes Sedai and was found by Jasfer when she couldn't channel and was nearly dead.

 

And like RAW said, the gholam is "immune to just about anything else." Nothing except Mat's Medallion has been seen to even hurt it as seen in his examples. We don't know what happened to the other 5 gholam either. I highly doubt they were all destroyed. In fact I don't even know if they can be. If the Shadow has more than one of them at its arsenal....