Nicola's CoT Foretelling/Foretellings about Rand

[Elgee]

It IS Tiana, RAW. This scene takes place just after Egwene returns from looking at Tar Valon from the river. She decides to check up on the tent where they are making cuendillar. Egwene asks Tiana if Nicola is still causing problems, Tiana starts to reply but they are interrupted by Sharina.

It is actually Janya, not Tiana, who talks about Nicola:

 

CoT, Chapter 17 (Secrets), p's 430-431 (US Hardcover).

 

Tiana stiffened and opened her mouth angrily, but once Janya had the bit between her teeth, getting a word in edgewise was no easy matter. "Nicola, on the other hand, causes all sorts of problems, Mother," the Brown rushed on. "Ever since we found out she has the Foretelling, she's been Foretelling two or three times a day, to hear her tell it. Or rather, to hear Areina tell it. Nicola is smart enough to know everyone is aware she can't remember what she says when she Foretells, but Areina always seems to be there to hear and remember, and help her interpret. Some are the sort of thing anyone in the camp with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of - battles with the Seanchan or the Asha'man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things, visions that might be Tarmon Gai'don or a bilious stomach - and the rest all just happen to indicate that Nicola ought to be allowed to go faster with her lessons. She's always too greedy for that. I think even most of the other novices have stopped believing her."

 

 

[a5m]

So I'm gather you think that the statement had zero chance of being foreshadowing. Interesting since everything else Tiana said then we think is foreshadowing.

 

Foreshadowing of WHAT?  We don't know what Nicola said!

 

Elgee is right, it is Janya's report to Eqwene, not directly from Tiana. Good catch and thanks for the quote too, I was just about to post part of it again. Also, Janya is a Brown and a sitter in the hall.

 

Now the phrase, "an Amyrlin imprisoned" seems to have been a bit of foreshadowing. The parts about battles with the Seanchan or the Asha'man certainly sound like foreshadowing. Yet the part about the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things is considered too vague to talk about. All of it was vague, including the imprisoned part. Does anyone think that section wasn't a foreshadowing that RJ put in about the end of the same book? If part of that dialog was meant to foreshadow, why not the rest of it?

 

[water_seeker]

Or rather, to hear Areina tell it. Nicola is smart enough to know everyone is aware she can't remember what she says when she Foretells, but Areina always seems to be there to hear and remember, and help her interpret. Some are the sort of thing anyone in the camp with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of - battles with the Seanchan or the Asha'man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things, visions that might be Tarmon Gai'don or a bilious stomach

 

lol...it's not even second-hand knowledge, it's third-hand knowledge since Areina is the one saying what will happen based off from Nicola's foretelling and Janya is the one who said "nine impossible things..." 

 

I hope everyone knows what happens everytime knowlegde passes from one person to another.  If not, play a quick round of "telephone" and see what happens.  People always interpret what they hear based on their own biases (or baggage).

[a5m]

I don't see how that makes it any less foreshadowing than the rest. Again, I'll gladly admit by the end of the last book that it didn't mean anything. Of course, by then, this site will be a shadow of its former self. (Pun intended)

 

Just because it's third hand and not even the novices believe her any more doesn't mean RJ wasn't intending to foreshadow here. If he did, he certainly did it in a way that many of you simply don't believe he did. Yet he includes the reference to Egwene and shows it to be true rather quickly. That's why I'm not convinced the rest should just be thrown away because it's vague or because of its source.

[mb]

I plan to continue this thread as long as any people seem interested.

Those who think that this discussion should not take place, they may either unsubscribe from this thread or report it to a moderator.

 

My previous guesses about what Nicola might have said:

-Heal death or at least put life into a dead body

-Clean the Ways maybe with getting rid of Machin Shin

-Do actual flying with the One Power

-Convert darkfriends and/or Forsaken to the Light

-Cleanse other Taint-made things

-Walk around invisible

-Channel through a stedding

-Giving a non-channeler the ability to channel

-Destroy or kill the Dark One

 

[Alghar Khan]

I think Nicola spoke of things Rand would do, and that Tiana thought they would be impossible. Not necessarily nine things, but some number of them. What Nicola said was not necessarily true Foretellings. She might have been lying. On the other hand, if she did, then why did she invent several things he would do that would seem impossible? Why not just be very unspecific (kind of like in astrology)? That makes me think that some of the Foretellings about Rand might have been real ones. I don't think we can guess what they might have been about (if they were indeed real). If we knew too much, then we might have lost interest in the upcoming books.

[Majsju]

I think Nicola spoke of things Rand would do, and that Tiana thought they would be impossible. Not necessarily nine things, but some number of them. What Nicola said was not necessarily true Foretellings. She might have been lying. On the other hand, if she did, then why did she invent several things he would do that would seem impossible? Why not just be very unspecific (kind of like in astrology)? That makes me think that some of the Foretellings about Rand might have been real ones. I don't think we can guess what they might have been about (if they were indeed real). If we knew too much, then we might have lost interest in the upcoming books.

 

Well, that Nicola had a number of Foretellings about Rand is obvious. Not nine, but a number. And it is unlikely that Nicola lied about these, she does not know enough about the prophecies to be able to make up things, something she should be aware of. Her invented Foretellings would primarily be the ones hinting at how she should be allowed more freedom in her training.

[Alghar Khan]

Well, that Nicola had a number of Foretellings about Rand is obvious. Not nine, but a number. And it is unlikely that Nicola lied about these, she does not know enough about the prophecies to be able to make up things, something she should be aware of. Her invented Foretellings would primarily be the ones hinting at how she should be allowed more freedom in her training.

But, if Nicola spoke the truth about Rand doing "nine impossible things", then... Wait, I thought you disagreed on that part? Whatever does that have to do with freedom in Nicola's training, anyway?

[Majsju]

Well, that Nicola had a number of Foretellings about Rand is obvious. Not nine, but a number. And it is unlikely that Nicola lied about these, she does not know enough about the prophecies to be able to make up things, something she should be aware of. Her invented Foretellings would primarily be the ones hinting at how she should be allowed more freedom in her training.

But, if Nicola spoke the truth about Rand doing "nine impossible things", then... Wait, I thought you disagreed on that part? Whatever does that have to do with freedom in Nicola's training, anyway?

 

Did you miss the part where I wrote Not nine, but a number?

As for Nicolas training..."and the rest all just happen to indicate that Nicola ought to be allowed to go faster with her lessons. ".

[Alghar Khan]

Did you miss the part where I wrote Not nine, but a number?

Sorry, I thought you disagreed on the "doing impossible things" part as well. I don't think there were nine things either. Not necessarily, anyway.

 

As for Nicolas training..."and the rest all just happen to indicate that Nicola ought to be allowed to go faster with her lessons. ".

That part certainly makes her a likely liar in Tiana's eyes. Even though some things might have been true.

 

[Majsju]

Sorry, I thought you disagreed on the "doing impossible things" part as well. I don't think there were nine things either. Not necessarily, anyway.

Well, obviously I do not think it is "impossible" things ;D Basically this is Janyas (as Elgee pointed out, it is Janya speaking, not Tiana) way of saying that Nicola has Foretold that rand will do all kinds of crazy stuff.

 

That part certainly makes her a likely liar in Tiana's eyes. Even though some things might have been true.

 

Well, watering down what truth there might have been from the beginning, if that makes any difference. It is quite clear thsat Nicola does have Foretellings, she just has a bad habit of trying to use that to her own advantage. Which incidently is what this passage is about, stressing what a bad apple Nicola is at this point in the story. Which made Honey In The Tea such a pleasant surprise.

[Alghar Khan]

Sorry, I thought you disagreed on the "doing impossible things" part as well. I don't think there were nine things either. Not necessarily, anyway.

Well, obviously I do not think it is "impossible" things ;D Basically this is Janyas (as Elgee pointed out, it is Janya speaking, not Tiana) way of saying that Nicola has Foretold that rand will do all kinds of crazy stuff.

I agree with you on that. They were just "impossible" according to Janya. If they were true Foretellings, then Janya must be mistaken.

 

[Majsju]

Sorry, I thought you disagreed on the "doing impossible things" part as well. I don't think there were nine things either. Not necessarily, anyway.

Well, obviously I do not think it is "impossible" things ;D Basically this is Janyas (as Elgee pointed out, it is Janya speaking, not Tiana) way of saying that Nicola has Foretold that rand will do all kinds of crazy stuff.

I agree with you on that. They were just "impossible" according to Janya. If they were true Foretellings, then Janya must be mistaken.

 

No no no. Janya is not saying that she believes the things to be actually "impossible", just as she is not saying that there are specifically nine things. This is a figufre of speech meaning that Nicola has Foretold that Rand is supposed to do all kinds of crazy stuff.

 

Another way to look at it...If it is a true Foretelling, it will happen no matter what anyone thinks of its eventual possibility. A Foretelling by its very nature can not be impossible.

If it is impossible, it is not a Foretelling.

[mb]

I just modified the thread title.

Like I told in another thread, I got the book today.

 

From reading the passage, the phrase '9 impossible things' I take is not a figure of speech nor a colloquialism.  The word "impossible" I take to be no more than the speaker's interpretation/opinion.  Though '9' I take to be literal.

If anything is a figure of speech (or a colloquialism) in the speech, it would most likely be 'a bilious stomach'.

 

[zanotam]

Rand doing 9 'impossible' things? That's easy, he's cleansed Saidin, he's um....basically reinvented male channeling from scratch, he followed Asmodean's skimming somehow, he talks to himself in his head and then talks back, he's balefire linked with Ishamael, um, he's married 3 girls, he's Aiel/Andoran, he's learned how to kill VERY efficiently, um.....probably some other things too.

[Kivam]

One was that bela would kill Asmodean.

*Kneecaps Kivam* These things have to be done.

 

As soon as I limp to the ban button, you are so gone.

 

You know that, right?

[Kivam]

I just modified the thread title.

Like I told in another thread, I got the book today.

 

From reading the passage, the phrase '9 impossible things' I take is not a figure of speech nor a colloquialism.  The word "impossible" I take to be no more than the speaker's interpretation/opinion.  Though '9' I take to be literal.

If anything is a figure of speech (or a colloquialism) in the speech, it would most likely be 'a bilious stomach'.

 

 

And rand was literally "nine kinds of idiot"?  Can we discuss which kinds?  Sorry, MB, but taking 9 to be literal is absurd.  Don't really care to stop you, if you're of a mind to speculate about 9 things you really hope get written into the series, but it's really based on nothing.

 

And RAW - you've made your point.  At this point, if people want to take it literally, no amount of evidence is going to convince them not to.  So just let them have at it, and stop opening the thread  ;D

[zanotam]

One was that bela would kill Asmodean.

*Kneecaps Kivam* These things have to be done.

 

As soon as I limp to the ban button, you are so gone.

 

You know that, right?

 

It's not his fault that you made a stupid comment. Bela couldn't have killed Asmodean because she would have not made his death quick, she would have made it a long, drawn out, and very painful affair. Plus Asmodean probalby wouldn't recognize her. And yes, taking the '9 impossible things' at face value is bad, but she obviously predicted that Rand would do something impossible.

[Alghar Khan]

I agree with you on that. They were just "impossible" according to Janya. If they were true Foretellings, then Janya must be mistaken.

No no no. Janya is not saying that she believes the things to be actually "impossible", just as she is not saying that there are specifically nine things. This is a figufre of speech meaning that Nicola has Foretold that Rand is supposed to do all kinds of crazy stuff.

I disagree. I think she did mean that the things Rand was supposed to do, according to Janya, really were impossible. That's the most important reason for why she doesn't believe that those were real Foretellings. After all, they know for sure that Nicola has that Talent.

 

 

 

I think Nicola spoke of things Rand would do, and that Tiana thought they would be impossible. Not necessarily nine things, but some number of them.

 

I agree with that, but if we remove "nine" and "impossible" from the statement, then all we are left with is a Foretelling of "the Dragon Reborn doing things".  I'm sorry, but using that, alone, as the basis for speculation is ...

...

...

...

wait for it ...

...

LUDICROUS!

 

The fact that Nicola predicted Rand would do an unknown number of things most Aes Sedai consider impossible is not a basis for any kind of coherent speculation.  It adds nothing to what we already know; it is merely what Rand has been doing all along.

Do you actually realize that I've not done any speculation on what those Foretellings could have been about? Besides that, I don't agree with your interpretation of what Janya said. I said in my first post in this thread that I don't think we can have any ideas what things Rand was supposed to do. I said that if we knew too much, then it would probably take the suspense out of the upcoming books (at least for some of us).

 

[Mr Ares]

Well, that Nicola had a number of Foretellings about Rand is obvious. Not nine, but a number. And it is unlikely that Nicola lied about these, she does not know enough about the prophecies to be able to make up things, something she should be aware of. Her invented Foretellings would primarily be the ones hinting at how she should be allowed more freedom in her training.

They could all be made up. "Some are the sort of thing anyone in the camp with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of - battles with the Seanchan or the Asha'man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things, visions that might be Tarmon Gai'don or a bilious stomach - and the rest all just happen to indicate that Nicola ought to be allowed to go faster with her lessons." She hardly needs to know the Prophecies, she could just be making up a load of stuff about Rand. We have no way to know if she made any of the Foretellings Janya is so dismissive of. They could all be made up, therefore we cannot say that it is obvious that she made "a number" of Foretellings about Rand. Maybe she just made some lucky guesses.

 

This is a figure of speech meaning that Nicola has Foretold that Rand is supposed to do all kinds of crazy stuff.

That Areina claims Nicola has Foretold that Rand is to do all kinds of crazy stuff.

 

One was that bela would kill Asmodean.

*Kneecaps Kivam* These things have to be done.

As soon as I limp to the ban button, you are so gone. You know that, right?

I know. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. It was lovely to have met you, but at least I went out doing what I love best - causing pain and suffering to people. *shifts ban button farther away* Well, I can always buy myself a bit of time.

 

It's not his fault that you made a stupid comment. Bela...

*kneecaps zanotam* Some people have to make mistakes for themselves. -sigh-

 

After all, they know for sure that Nicola has that Talent.

The boy who cried wolf was quite capable of seeing wolves as well. Doesn't mean that every time he claimed he saw one he really did...

[mb]

I slightly changed my mind; though I still think '9 impossible things' should be seriously considered.  Claiming/Insisting that it is a figure of speech or a colloquialism, that to me is a cop-out since we are not told the actual Foretelling/Foretellings.

 

9 might not be the actual number, but 9 could be the number that the speaker counted.

Since the speaker seems to be bound to the First Oath, she believes 9 things were Foretold.  For some she might have counted as 2 or more; and/or more were Foretold and she heard just the ones she counted.

 

[water_seeker]

Since the speaker seems to be bound to the First Oath, she believes 9 things were Foretold.

 

mb, Jordan did say that an Aes Sedai bound to the Oaths could use sarcasm.  If she really truly believes that the person she is talking to will not take her literally, then she can say pretty much anything.

 

For Majsju, the oath against lying does leave room for sarcasm.  It is intent and result that matter.  No sister can intentionally speak an untruth either with the intent of passing on false information or with the belief that false information might be passed on.  Thus the careful slicing and dicing of words.  But if someone were to hold up a piece of white cloth and ask whether it was black or white, someone who had sworn the Three Oaths would be capable of saying that it was black as a matter of sarcasm.  But not if, for example, the person asking the question was blind and thus might well take the statement for truth rather than sarcasm.

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=31&cp=all

 

So the way she brushes it off as "the sort of thing anyone in the camp with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of," makes it a sarcastic statement.

 

Knowing that it's sarcastic we can gather that whatever she was told about what Rand is going to do, she believes that those things are impossible.  Whether or not they are impossible is another matter (if they were true foretellings then they are improbable, not impossible).  That leaves the "nine things" as the sarcastic point of the statement. 

 

Otherwise, if she was really told nine things Rand was supposed to do, and she truly believed that they were impossible, then saying it in the way she did would have been the same as sarcastically saying that the white cloth of RJs comment was indeed white.

 

I don't know why, but I use 18 as my sarcastic (or hyperbolic) number.  "I got stopped at all 18 THOUSAND red lights today on my way home!!!" >:( When really, there are only a couple.  "The stupid debt collectors have called me 18 times in the last half-hour!!!  The BASTARDS!!!" >:(  When really, they only called twice in the last week.

 

It's a figure of speech...

 

"Nine impossible things..."

"Nine kinds of idiot..."

"Nine Horse Hitch..."  ::)

[Chernabog]

Some people here (Zanotam I believe is one) have pointed out Rand's done some impossible things, none of which would count towards Nicola's "9 Impossible Things" since they were done before her "foretelling".

 

 

Honestly, in the end it's extremely doubtful this is an actual foretelling(s). Think about it, there's one book left, three volumes. Rand doesn't have time to do 9 Impossble things, he'd have to do 3 per book and given that he won't have a majority of the screen time after factoring in all the other plots and characters it would be impossible in itself to have him do this. Even then, from what I recall there has been little to no foreshadowing or hinting of any kind that he's going to do things. Prophecies aside of course, which I don't think would count as impossible things (though that's a debate of it's own).

 

In the end it's most likely Nicola's 9 Impossible things are just 9 attempts at getting attention. Considering only Areina is around to hear them and tell Nicola what she foretold, and it only convieniently happens with Areina around.

[Bob T Dwarf]

"Ever since we found out she has the Foretelling, she's been Foretelling two or three times a day, to hear her tell it. [...] battles with the Seanchan or the Asha'man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things, visions that might be Tarmon Gai'don or a bilious stomach..."

 

Keep in mind, all Aes Sedai, but particularly the Reds, have a certain mindset where men who can channel, and the Dragon Reborn in particular, are concerned.  If anything Nicola had to say about Rand contradicted that mindset, Tiana would believe it to be impossible.  AS are also capable of hyperbole and sarcasm.

 

Whether an actual belief, or simply a form of dismissive sarcasm, "nine impossible things" does not have be literally 9 things.  Merely some number of things that Tiana finds unlikely or preposterous because of her individual mindset.

[luftstark]

Some people here (Zanotam I believe is one) have pointed out Rand's done some impossible things

 

Nothing Rand has done is impossible.  If it were impossible, he could not have done it.

 

He did some things that people thought would be impossible until they were done.  But a Foretelling would not label them as impossible, since Foretellings are accurate depictions of the future, and as such would not label something that would be done as "impossible".

 

RAW .. fortelling are not accurate description of the future... they are riddles. And in a riddle an impossible thing may not be impossible, just hard to accomplish.

 

Or do you think Elaine is a Lion? (from "The dedicated spear, the lion sword, the one that see beyond...") she represents a Lion... but she is not, literaly, a Lion. Therefore an impossible thing is not, literaly, impossible, but just thought to be so!!

 

Nevertheless.. this discussion is not the point.. Tiana's phrase is not a accurate quote of the foretell!