After the Last Battle

[Wit Congar]

I've been thinking about what the world would be like after the Last Battle. From the quotes from the fourth age we know that the light was victorious and that the Dragon Reborn is a revered figure. We also know that everyone quoted from the fourth age is from a nation that does not yet exist, suggesting that at least most of the current nations will be destroyed, or at least changed beyond recognition. In the prophecies it says that the Dragon Reborn will break the world again, so my question is how will the world be broken and what will it look like afterwards. In the Age of Legends the world was broken by insane male channelers who destroyed civilization and remade the entire map. It seems unlikely that this will happen again. If the Dark One is properly sealed away, I don't see how he could drive any channelers insane. I dont't think anything besides large numbers of insane channelers could physically remake the world as happened in the breaking. Rand could possibly do this with the Choedan Kal in the last battle, but if that was misused it would be more likely to destroy the world rather than change its geographical features. So it seems more likely that the world will stay intact physically and that the new breaking will result from widespread destruction of social and political institutions during the Last Battle. My guess is that the military conflict of Tarmon Gaidon will not just happen in the Blight and the Borderlands, and Trolloc and Darkfriend armies will wreak destruction all over, destroying or critically damaging many cities and nations. Additionally randland is a feudal society, so most of the aristocracy are military leaders , and a large percentage of them will likely be killed in the Last Battle, allowing new elites and social structures to arise.

 

We know that Robert Jordan was planning on writing a book about Mat and Tuon, so we know they will survive and presumably be the leaders of the Seanchan. I would think that Tuon's first priority will be reconquering the mainland of Seanchan rather than completing the Return. I doubt the other nations of randland will accept the Seanchan presence, but they have a strong hold on the lands they've already conquered, and the rest of randland will have its own problems, so as long as Tuon focuses on reconquering Seanchan I don't think there will be much conflict. Another issue is that I don't see Mat as willing to be part of an empire that keeps damane, he knows and likes too many channelers, including his own sister. I believe Tuon will come around and decide to free the damane, and maybe learn to channel herself. However this will likely lead to a civil war between pro and anti damane factions. It looks like Mat's going to have plenty of battles in his future.

 

Perrin seems likely to become the ruler of a new nation. Besides the Two Rivers, he is now in control of Ghealdan and parts of northern Altara and Amadicia. He or Faile will probably also become the ruler of Saldaea, as Min saw a broken crown in Perrin's aura. The way the Two Rivers people always want to fly the Red Eagle seems to suggest that he will become the ruler of a new Manetheren, which occupied roughly the same area Perrin controls now. However, his claims to Saldaea present a problem. Saldaea is far away, and between Saldaea and the Two Rivers is a large empty area and western Andor. I'm not sure if Saldaea could practically be a part of a new Manetheren. It also seems likely that Perrin would have some kind of conflict with Elayne. I highly doubt that she would be willing to give up any of Andor, even a part she has no practical control over. Also, if the Two Rivers does become the heart of a powerful state, it is likely that western Andor might be attracted to it. Western Andor is also only loosely controlled by Caemlyn and was once part of Manetheren. It is also similar demographically, and likely has similar immigration from Arad Doman, Tarabon, and the Almoth plain. I would hope Rand's best friend and his lover don't go to war, but Rand might be dead by then, and Elayne and Perrin have had only limited interaction in Falme and in Tear.

 

Elayne will be one of the most powerful rulers in the land as the queen of Andor and of Carhien (although I don't see why everyone says she has the best claim to the Sun Throne, Galad and Gawayn should both have better claims). So will Andor and Carhien become a single nation, possibly minus western Andor? Another possibility is that she will give one nation to each of her unborn children, and both nations will be ruled by House Al'Thor (or Trakand if she doesn't want to give up her name, Trakand-Al'Thor maybe?).

 

Min predicted that Darlin would die in his bed, which leads me to beleive that Tear will remain an independent nation, as deposed kings don't often die in bed. Although all the talk about the Stone of Tear never falling does sound like foreshadowing of it falling during Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Another question is what will happen to all the channelers. Will the Aes Sedai form an association with all female channelers as Egwene plans? Will the Asha'man unite with the Aes Sedai? Like the Stone of Tear, its been said many times that Tar Valon has never been conquered, so that might happen in the Last Battle. I doubt the Aes Sedai will separate from their Asha'man warders, so there will be at least some unification, but I would guess many Asha'man won't want to join with the Aes Sedai, who would probably want to be in charge. The Asha'man have been trained as weapons, so I imagine many of them would want to continue being soldiers after the Last Battle, something most Aes Sedai would probably disagree with.

 

Another big question is whether Rand will live or die. If he lives he will be one of the most powerful figures in the world. Even after the Last Battle, there will still probably be many people loyal to him (the Aiel certainly, maybe the Sea Folk, the most fanatical dragonsworn). He would also be married to the queen of Andor and Cairhien. He might want to retire into obscurity, but I doubt others would let that happen, there would still be many who looked to him for leadership. And if he doesnt learn laughter and tears he might be tempted to set himself up as a tyrant.

 

Anyway, those are just a few of my thoughts, I wanted to see what other people had to say.

[mb]

I agree that Mat and Tuon would rule Seanchan, yet I doubt they would need to reconquer since there would not be any kind of enemy after Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Perrin and Faile would rule Saldaea.  Andor/Two-Rivers I imagine might be settled before Tarmon Gaidon.  Perrin promised the Seanchan that he would not reconquer Manetheren (Knife of Dreams Chapter 4).

 

It seems certain that Rand would die; though there might be a chance that Rand would become resurrected.  If Aviendha does not get pregnant before Tarmon Gaidon, Rand would certainly become resurrected because she is to give birth to 4 of his children (Min's Viewing, Winter's Heart Chapter 12).

 

About channelers, Egwene would be Amyrlin (Min's Viewing, Great Hunt Chapter 24) & Logain would head the Black Tower (Egwene's Dream, Crown of Swords Chapter 10).  I am not sure if the two towers would become a union; there is not currently any prophecy that tells that there would be a union.

 

About Cairhien, Elayne/Gawyn/Galad seem to have equal claim.  I am not sure if Gawyn & Galad would accept if offered; Galad might be the one more probable of the two since Gawyn is/will-be Elayne's First Prince.  Cairhien & Andor would probably be a united nation with the capital probably being Caemlyn or Elayne would trade Cairhien to the Whitecloaks to settle Morgase's treaty.

 

About the country names from the Fourth Age quotations, a number of possibilities:

-They are names from a previous cycle.

-The Blight being divided into a number of countries after Tarmon Gaidon.

-Renaming of combined nations.

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Elayne won't have to honor Morgase's treaty with the Whitecloaks because Galad will view it as meaningless, since Morgase was coerced.  Oh, and the Whitecloaks are unlikely to survive the Last Battle as an organization anyway.

 

If a tiny core does survive, and Galad is leading it, she might let them build in Cairhien, though, since Galad would probably make them a much better organization than they had been in Amadicia.  But neither Galad not Gawyn would try to supersede Elayne's claim to Cairhien.

And in any case, it'll probably emerge as a totally different organization if it does survive.

 

Kind of hard to hate channelers given that the boss's sister is one. And they'll have seen Aes Sedai at the forefront of TG.

 

Perhaps they'll turn in to something akin to a classical fantasy-genre paladin order.

[Luckers]

Assuming there aren't huge changes in the face of the land with the Last Battle, Perrin would probably be undisputed ruler or co-ruler of everything from Maradon to Jehannah.  He would be a good buffer ruler between the Seanchan ruled lands of the south-west and the rest of Randland, given his ties of friendship to the Prince of the Ravens and respectful association with their newest rising military general, Tylee Khirgan.  I imagine that Perrin-land will be a popular place to emigrate to in a post Tarmon Gai'don world, and that repopulating the empty lands between Baerlon and southern Saldaea will be accomplished in a few generations.  Given the excellent forest and the newly formed and patiently waiting Lake Logoth, it is prime land for settlement.

 

Strangely, that is the most clearly i've ever seen that stated. Strange because it does seem quite obvious, and fits very well with whats building.

 

Your pun made me cry, however.

 

I'm betting that Elayne puts Cairhien and Andor together, and lets Perrin have what is now western Andor.  Actually, this could make Whitebridge into a REAL trade center, in a somewhat ironic twist.

 

I agree. This also provides a solid shield between the Seanchan and the Tower--between Perrin's realm and Elayne's they completely sequester the Tower from Seanchan--which i suspect will only be important in the short term whilst the Seanchan deal with their damane/sul'dam problem, but still.

 

Of course their are problems with this. Elayne is not likely to just give up on western Andor--but she is also not unreasonable. She knows Andor has had no control past whitebridge for hundreds of years. There are no Houses, Great or otherwise, beyond there. And her plate will be full with Andor and Cairhein.

 

So yes, i reckon it will work.

[mb]

I agree that Mat and Tuon would rule Seanchan, yet I doubt they would need to reconquer since there would not be any kind of enemy after Tarmon Gaidon.

Mat and Tuon will almost certainly have to re-conquer Seanchan.  When Semirhage murdered the (ex)Empress Radhanan and all the royal family left in Seandar, she sent the entire continent into full blown chaos.  There were apparently no less than fifty nobles with armies already in the field, contending for all or part of the Empire.  Those people probably won't even be directly involved in Tarmon Gai'don.

Several points:

-It seems that there would be some time before Tarmon Gaidon happens.  Those nobles might either be killed or captured during that time.

-It is prophesied that the land would be cleansed of the shadow when the Dragon Reborn dies at Shayol Ghul.  That to me implies that every remaining person would become Light-sided at that moment.

-The term Last Battle would be misapplied if anybody needs to fight after it.

If Mat & Tuon would need to reconquer, it would be before Tarmon Gaidon.

 

It seems certain that Rand would die; though there might be a chance that Rand would become resurrected.  If Aviendha does not get pregnant before Tarmon Gaidon, Rand would certainly become resurrected because she is to give birth to 4 of his children (Min's Viewing, Winter's Heart Chapter 12).

There is actually some question about whether or not he could father children while he is waiting in Tel'aran'rhiod between spinnings, if Aviendha goes there in the flesh.  So, he's probably coming back out the other end in some form or other, but if he doesn't, that could be the explanation for the "something odd" that is part of Min's viewing.

It would not be Rand's body if it is possible.

 

[Lord Nik]

If Mat & Tuon would need to reconquer, it would be before Tarmon Gaidon.

 

I believe the last battle is referring war with the shadow. I think humans will have plenty of things to battle about in the future*

 

 

[mb]

If Mat & Tuon would need to reconquer, it would be before Tarmon Gaidon.

I believe the last battle is referring war with the shadow. I think humans will have plenty of things to battle about in the future*

All wars and all battles I think relate to the shadow, at least implicitly.

 

 

Regarding time, Mat's luck combined with Mat's Taverenness might speed up the regaining.

What would happen in their outrigger novel?  Possibly negotiations, raising children, going on trips.

 

It would not be Rand's body if it is possible.

But it would be his soul.  Which is what makes the babies "odd".  If, and I do stress if, it is possible.

The viewing I take to apply to Rand's body, not Rand's soul.

Or if Rand's soul, how would Aviendha find it?

The oddness seems to apply to the birth, not the babies.

 

[Majsju]

All wars and all battles I think relate to the shadow, at least implicitly.

 

I disagree wholeheartedly.

 

And so does RJ...

The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade

Nicolas Foretelling in LOC is quite clear, there will be fighting after TG.

[mb]

And so does RJ...

The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade

Nicolas Foretelling in LOC is quite clear, there will be fighting after TG.

That is a matter of speculation.  I do not recall Robert Jordan telling that the great battle was Tarmon Gaidon; and I imagine his comment would have been a Read-And-Find-Out if he did comment.

Unless it is proven otherwise, we can only speculate what the great battle is/will-be.

 

[Majsju]

Something like this perhaps...

[Shard]

Some people are just stubborn.

[Elgee]

Or they take obtuseness to a new level  ::)

 

On the other hand, if there's weren't inducing people around, I wouldn't get my morning cackle over RAW and Maj's rapier like responses  ;D

[MikeRiley]

I would just like to say that if I was a surviving Tairen high lord and either saw or heard of Rand's death and the Last Battle was over, I would contest his steward in Tear's right to rule. If I was in Illian's council of nine, I would put in my own claim for king. In both cases it would cause a war.

 

Assuming this body switch theory is going to happen and the Dragon "dies", nobody would believe it but those who know Rand. When Rand's body dies, the Dragon dies. He would either have to re-conquer lands to keep his laws in place, or let it go.

 

Seanchan won't be in A Memory of Light, the conquest of that continent will likely make up the Mat and Tuon books.

 

After the Last Battle I expect nobody to consider borders and a giant land grab. It might take a few years for things to really calm down and new nations would emerge from it. The Dragon controls a significant amount of land and with his death it's going to collapse.

[CUBAREY]

I would just like to say that if I was a surviving Tairen high lord and either saw or heard of Rand's death and the Last Battle was over, I would contest his steward in Tear's right to rule. If I was in Illian's council of nine, I would put in my own claim for king. In both cases it would cause a war.

 

There will soon be a King in Tear one supported not only by Rand but proposed by those highlords who rebelled against Rand. We also know he will leave a long life and die in bed. So I doubt that the Tearen highlords will take Rand's death as a chance to start a civil war.

 

The true King of Illian is still alive and when that becomes known after the last battle that in and of itself might start a power struggle in Illian.

[CUBAREY]

Rand is not going to turn Illian over to Mattin Stepaneos.  Egwene might be able to make use of Mattin in a post-Tarmon Gai'don world, but Rand wouldn't trust him as far as my baby sister could throw a bus.

 

After the last battle, in the confussion over whether Rand survived or died, I could see Stepanos showing up in Illian pressing his claims which would cause a civil war. That Rand could at some point thereafter show himself and put and and to it and Stepanos does not mean there will be no civil war.

[Sab]

If Mattin Stepaneos shows up after the last battle, why wouldn't Rand give him back his crown?  Rand doesn't want to rule Illian.  Rand has no beef with Mattin and knows he wasn't loyal to Samm. 

[mb]

The viewing I take to apply to Rand's body, not Rand's soul.

 

The viewing applies to Aviendha's quadruplets.  This is what Min saw:

 

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

(WH ch 12)

 

Something was odd about what?  About having four at once?  Or about having Rand's babies at all?  If Rand is dead, and Aviendha still gets pregnant by him, I think that would count as "odd".

 

To clarify, the "his" in the Viewing I take to refer to the physical Rand not Rand's soul.

And again, the oddness I take to applies to the birth not to the conception nor to the babies.

 

[Roxinos]

Again, I understood what you meant.  But the grammar of Min's sentences is not limited to that interpretation.  She doesn't specify what "that" is.

 

Seriously. The majority of the teachers I've ever had would have a fit over that "that."

[Roxinos]

Aww, you ruined a chance for some tasty pseudo-irony.

[mb]

To clarify, the "his" in the Viewing I take to refer to the physical Rand not Rand's soul.

I understood what you meant, but the viewing doesn't specify that.  Rand's soul is "Rand" as much as Rand's body is "Rand".  In truth, Rand's soul is more Rand than his body, especially if he ends up switching with Moridin, which is another possibility.

The soul in between the spinnings would be Lews Therin or some previous Dragon, not Rand.

 

And again, the oddness I take to applies to the birth not to the conception nor to the babies.

Again, I understood what you meant.  But the grammar of Min's sentences is not limited to that interpretation.  She doesn't specify what "that" is.

From where the sentence is placed, the oddness applying to the birth seems more likely.

Or if to the conception, why would Aviendha enter in the flesh?  I think only some need would cause her to do it; totally defying the Wise One's teachings to me seems unlike her.

 

[benr]

 

 

It seems certain that Rand would die; though there might be a chance that Rand would become resurrected.  If Aviendha does not get pregnant before Tarmon Gaidon, Rand would certainly become resurrected because she is to give birth to 4 of his children (Min's Viewing, Winter's Heart Chapter 12).

There is actually some question about whether or not he could father children while he is waiting in Tel'aran'rhiod between spinnings, if Aviendha goes there in the flesh.  So, he's probably coming back out the other end in some form or other, but if he doesn't, that could be the explanation for the "something odd" that is part of Min's viewing.

It would not be Rand's body if it is possible.

 

 

Perhaps one of Rand's Universities will develop a sperm bank.

 

Seriously, it always seemed apparent to me that the oddness was with the four babes.  Don't know why.  My speculation always centered on what the oddness might be, how the babes would be odd.  Nice thread.

[mb]

From where the sentence is placed, the oddness applying to the birth seems more likely.

To you.  But not to everyone, and your grammatical reading is not the one and only possible correct one.

I did not say it was the only one possible, just the more likely one.

 

Or if to the conception, why would Aviendha enter in the flesh?  I think only some need would cause her to do it; totally defying the Wise One's teachings to me seems unlike her.

To get Rand's babies, maybe?

Perhaps after meeting him through either dream terangreal type.

 

[mb]

I did not say it was the only one possible, just the more likely one.

More likely ... why?  Because that is what makes sense to you?  What makes your interpretation "more likely" than any other one?  Nothing in the actual structure of the sentences makes your interpretation "more likely".

The sentence was next to "four of them at once", not next to "Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too".  And the sentence said "about that, though" not "about that first thing, though".

Generally pronouns refer to last noun reference which in this case is the birth.

 

[Roxinos]

It's called an unclear reference, mb.

 

"The suitcase was on the plane, but now it's gone."

 

You would think that "it" refers to the plane because the plane is the closest noun, however, you cannot make that assumption because "it" can also refer to the suitcase.

 

"Buford saw Longstreet's division coming toward his men. Reynolds' troops responded quickly to the calls for assistance, and soon he found himself in the midst of a deadly battle."

 

Same in this one. You would think that "he" is referring to "Reynolds" as it is the closest name, but you cannot make that assumption because "he" can also be referring to Buford or Longstreet.

 

Examples taken from: http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000030.htm

[Roxinos]

First of all, the word "that" is not a pronoun.  It is a subordinating conjunction.

 

"That" can be used as a pronoun.

 

For example, "That was an interesting example."