The Band of the Red Hand in TGS

[Charlz Guybon]

Mat's going to be separated from his men while on his quest to save Moraine. I like the Band as a whole and the side characters that inhabit and am saddened to think they won't be getting much action in TGS.

 

The Band is currently separated into two sections. Now according to the fan made map which shows were all current forces are located Easten and Daerid are just crossing the Murandy-Andor border via the Lugard road with 22,500 men. It looks like a couple of hundred miles, but the Band should be able to reach Caemlyn in a week if there's good weather.

 

I wonder how Elayne will react to them, they're not going to be as easy to get rid of as the Borderlanders, and their presence will cause political problems. Of course if Trollocs come crawling out of the woodwork then people will forget that, but that might not happen until the end of the book, or even AMOL2. Still, Elayne won't won't to fight them so then what? Perhaps they'll make camp at the old Legion of the Dragon site? Will paranoid nobles, Elayne's political opponents, and puppets of the Shadow try to provoke a battle?

 

As for the secondary mounted force that recently crossed into Murandy from Altara, I'm not sure what will happen to them. It would be impractical of them to follow Mat to the tower of Genjhi through the wilderness. If they're sent to Andor they can run rings around Roedran if necessary and the Seanchan are no longer in pursuit of them so nothing should happen to  them. They should be able to reach Caemlyn in a month if nothing interferes.

 

Can anyone else see something different happening with the Band?

[DemandredFO]

If part of the band makes it to Caemlyn I don't see Elayne kicking them out.  Elayne understands what Mat is, or at least some of what he is and Birgitte perfectly understands what he is.  Unlike Egwene, Elayne or if not her Birgitte will understand that they are well-trained soldiers.  Elayne will probably try to add them to the Queen's Guards which should be interesting.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I wonder how Elayne will react to them, they're not going to be as easy to get rid of as the Borderlanders, and their presence will cause political problems.

 

Why would they cause problems?  They have no reason to cause Elayne problems, and Elayne can portray them as allies brought in at her request.  Mat may well send messengers from the mounted group with him on ahead to give them instructions to be helpful before he leaves.  The whole group from Altara can't catch up, but a messenger or two should have no problem.  The Band is likely to slow down once they get into Andor.

 

The Band is definitely different than the Borderlanders, who are under the command of their own sovereign rulers, or the Aiel, who everyone knew were Rand's.  Elayne's position as Queen is relatively solid now, so she can use the Band to solidify it further.

 

The more likely problem is the Band running afoul of the Borderlanders somehow.

[MikeRiley]

There's no chance of the Band being added to the Queen's Guards, or even of Elayne attempting it. She only used mercs in the Guard because she absolutely had to in order to defend Caemlyn.

[Charlz Guybon]

I wonder how Elayne will react to them, they're not going to be as easy to get rid of as the Borderlanders, and their presence will cause political problems.

 

Why would they cause problems?  They have no reason to cause Elayne problems, and Elayne can portray them as allies brought in at her request.  Mat may well send messengers from the mounted group with him on ahead to give them instructions to be helpful before he leaves.  The whole group from Altara can't catch up, but a messenger or two should have no problem.  The Band is likely to slow down once they get into Andor.

 

The Band is definitely different than the Borderlanders, who are under the command of their own sovereign rulers, or the Aiel, who everyone knew were Rand's.  Elayne's position as Queen is relatively solid now, so she can use the Band to solidify it further.

 

The more likely problem is the Band running afoul of the Borderlanders somehow.

They're a foreign army in her country. Those are not usually looked on too kindly. They're even more disreputable for being dragonsworn. They'll cause a lot of tension just by being there.

 

Why would the Borderlanders attack the Band? You think the Aes Sedai with them will manipulate them into doing so? I just can't see that happening, it would be extremely anticlimactic if the Band got destroyed like that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

They're a foreign army in her country.

 

They're not a foreign army.  They're a private army who have contracted out as mercenaries in the past.  Big difference in how Elayne can spin their presence, especially now that she can officially claim to be Queen.

 

Why would the Borderlanders attack the Band?

 

Anytime two armies are in the same area, things can get dicey.  Especially when both are in foreign territory.

 

I just can't see that happening, it would be extremely anticlimactic if the Band got destroyed like that.

 

Who said anything about the Band getting destroyed?  ???

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeRiley]

The 13 Black Ajah with the borderlanders would make that a very big possibility in the event of a battle between the two.

 

Elayne's going to publicly support the Dragon so having an army of dragonsworn on her doorstep won't make much difference politically. The problem would come about more with them having to strip the country side to feed themselves and unless they pay (and even if they do) the farmers are going to be upset.

 

Rand would likely move them somewhere else anyway. I can't see Mat spending a month in the ToG and he'll be with them again when he can.

[Casco]

The 13 Black Ajah with the borderlanders? Do we know that they are Black Ajah? As i recall they havent choosed side yet, Elaida or Egweyne. That doesnt make them Black Ajah.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The 13 Black Ajah with the borderlanders? Do we know that they are Black Ajah? As i recall they havent choosed side yet, Elaida or Egweyne. That doesnt make them Black Ajah.

 

The short answer is that we don't know for sure.  It seems very likely, given a number of other assumptions in a number of other theories, which there isn't really time to detail here (but that I agree with).  But it is definitely not certain.

 

And they don't have to be Black Ajah to cause problems, especially if they think that Mat might be with the Band.  Just about every Aes Sedai alive would like to get a hold of him.

 

And the Borderlanders are looking for Rand.  A number of them know that Mat is his good buddy.  Think they might want a word with him?

 

Elayne's going to publicly support the Dragon so having an army of dragonsworn on her doorstep won't make much difference politically. The problem would come about more with them having to strip the country side to feed themselves and unless they pay (and even if they do) the farmers are going to be upset.

 

Well, they should be both willing and able to pay for supplies (they're apparently flush with cash) and maybe even recruit.  And when they do get to Caemlyn, Elayne should be happy to have mercenaries she can actually trust, and they should be happy to wait there for Mat.

[Kaznen]

Why would any of the Band go to Camelyne?  There is no need, and if that was were they were sent, then the army that can move faster then any other except Aiel would have gotten there during the siege.

 

Talmanes said he sent them into Andor to get them out of Murandy, he didn't know where Mat would want them to go so I've thought they went up the Manetherendrelle just over the border into Andor, south of Whitebridge.  It would make sense to have them waiting near the area the Band was suspected to exit the mountains from.

 

I think that once his half cross over the Manetherendrelle he head north along side the river to go to Whitebridge, making no effort to hide because he wants Rand to find him.

 

Once he get there with his 20,000-30,000 man army that will practicly send a flare up throughout Andor saying Mat Cauthorn is in Whitebridge.

 

That will also bring the Borderlanders.  Their intentions never seemed friendly when they set out and the AS know, like everyone else in power except Rand, Mat, and Perrin (even the rest of the Band) that Mat and Perrin are Rand's seconds in command in the whole Dragonsworn hierarchy.  So capturing Mat will be almsot as good as getting Rand.

 

But by the time Mat leaves Whitebridge Perrin and Galad will have shown up so it will be an army of dragonsworn v the armies of the borderlands.

 

And the Band has never been mercenaries.  What happened in Murandy was an excuse for the Band to stay there while Talmanes decided whether or not he needed to go into Altara to look for Mat.  And I think Talmanes's agreement with King Rhodean was for more then gold.  Because Talmanes is a noble Carihien who is dragonsworn he probally made sure that Rhodean's newly secure power base will be reaady to march for TG when Rand orders it.

[MikeRiley]

Well, they should be both willing and able to pay for supplies (they're apparently flush with cash) and maybe even recruit.  And when they do get to Caemlyn, Elayne should be happy to have mercenaries she can actually trust, and they should be happy to wait there for Mat.

 

If a farmer has 5 apples and the army needs 6 it doesn't matter how much they can pay. It was mentioned at that meeting between the borderlanders and Egwene. They'll strip the area around them bare to feed themselves and it won't matter if they can pay or not because that's food gone.

 

The idea with Elayne and mercs isn't that she couldn't trust the others, it's that the Guard isn't supposed to be made up of them. It's supposed to be made up of Andorans.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I wonder how Elayne will react to them, they're not going to be as easy to get rid of as the Borderlanders, and their presence will cause political problems.

 

Why would they cause problems?  They have no reason to cause Elayne problems, and Elayne can portray them as allies brought in at her request.  Mat may well send messengers from the mounted group with him on ahead to give them instructions to be helpful before he leaves.  The whole group from Altara can't catch up, but a messenger or two should have no problem.  The Band is likely to slow down once they get into Andor.

 

The Band is definitely different than the Borderlanders, who are under the command of their own sovereign rulers, or the Aiel, who everyone knew were Rand's.  Elayne's position as Queen is relatively solid now, so she can use the Band to solidify it further.

 

The more likely problem is the Band running afoul of the Borderlanders somehow.

 

Wouldn't Elayne consider them Dragonsworn and thus wish to have nothing to do with them? Or did her dislike for Dragonsworn end when she gained the throne? Since the reason she disliked them in the begginning was that she didn't want to seem as if she needed Rands help. Or no?

[Hallow]

I find it funny how Egwene and Elayne (And others) have dis taste for dragon sworn when they are obviously on Rand's side of things, Elayne atleast.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And the Band has never been mercenaries.  What happened in Murandy was an excuse for the Band to stay there while Talmanes decided whether or not he needed to go into Altara to look for Mat.  And I think Talmanes's agreement with King Rhodean was for more then gold.  Because Talmanes is a noble Carihien who is dragonsworn he probally made sure that Rhodean's newly secure power base will be reaady to march for TG when Rand orders it.

 

While we don't think of them as mercenaries, because we know what they were doing and why, it is sort of the definition of what they did in Murandy.

 

They are an army who hired out their services for gold.  That is the definition of mercenaries.  Their underlying motives are irrelevant to the perception of others.

 

If a farmer has 5 apples and the army needs 6 it doesn't matter how much they can pay. It was mentioned at that meeting between the borderlanders and Egwene. They'll strip the area around them bare to feed themselves and it won't matter if they can pay or not because that's food gone

 

Your statement is true, but there the situation in Andor doesn't seem that serious yet.  The Aes Sedai army never entered Andor, and so didn't deplete their supplies.  The Borderlanders haven't left Braem Wood yet.  Southern Andor should have food to sell, and the Band probably left Murandy fairly well-supplied; they won't need to buy everything.

 

But, then again, thats another reason to get to Caemlyn; big cities usually can supply armies better than random farms.

 

The idea with Elayne and mercs isn't that she couldn't trust the others, it's that the Guard isn't supposed to be made up of them. It's supposed to be made up of Andorans.

 

Um ... trust was very much an issue.  You might want to re-read that sequence.  Only one of the four merc captains that Elayne hired was faithful (Hafeen Bakuvun).  The other three betrayed the Far Madding Gate (Evard Cordwyn, Rhys a'Balaman and Aldred Gomaisien).  See KoD ch 35.  Heck ... Evard Cordwyn was an Andoran, and still turned traitor; the only faithful one was Domani.

 

Wouldn't Elayne consider them Dragonsworn and thus wish to have nothing to do with them? Or did her dislike for Dragonsworn end when she gained the throne? Since the reason she disliked them in the begginning was that she didn't want to seem as if she needed Rands help. Or no?

 

Elayne knows the difference between the Band and other Dragonsworn.  And she can portray the Band as highly skilled mercenaries.

 

She didn't want the support of the troops Rand had left in Andor, because it was important that she be seen to gain the throne on her own strength.  Now that she has her ten (plus more) and is Queen, she can bring in who she wants.

 

I find it funny how Egwene and Elayne (And others) have dis taste for dragon sworn when they are obviously on Rand's side of things, Elayne atleast.

 

Most of those claiming to be Dragonsworn are not in any way connected to Rand.  They are simply using that as an excuse to commit atrocities, like the followers of Masema, but on a smaller scale.

[Hallow]

Yet in Salidar they express dis taste of the "Band of dragon sworn" stationed a couple of miles away. I have a shite memory so this mightve been another Aes Sedai but thats still funny seeing as they claim to also be on Rands side of things, this being the main reason they didnt instantly gentle Logain.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It was other Aes Sedai, and Elayne especially has come to respect Mat more after events in Ebou Dar; I doubt she'll treat his men badly, especially when they can be useful to each other.

 

You may be remembering the conversation in which Mat claimed not to be Dragonsworn, and the girls said that of course he and his men were, because they followed Rand.  But that doesn't mean that the girls don't understand the difference between the Band and other Dragonsworn.  Look at how Egwene worked with Talmanes.

[Hallow]

It was other Aes Sedai, and Elayne especially has come to respect Mat more after events in Ebou Dar; I doubt she'll treat his men badly, especially when they can be useful to each other.

 

You may be remembering the conversation in which Mat claimed not to be Dragonsworn, and the girls said that of course he and his men were, because they followed Rand.  But that doesn't mean that the girls don't understand the difference between the Band and other Dragonsworn.  Look at how Egwene worked with Talmanes.

 

Im sure it was an aes sedai or another that wasnt really happy with having dragon sworn there mainly because they were nasty scary dragonsworn, and im not mixing it with that convo, I remember that convo and I liked it :P And I wasnt really referring to what happened after Ebou Dar but before Ebou Dar, Elayne was a bitch to Mat all the way till the end there, annoyed me.

[cloglord]

Half the Band was sent north to get them out of Murandy before the farce of a threat became an actual battle with Murandian forces. 

 

I also was under the assumption that they were sent north towards whitebridge because Talmanes knew full well that the Andorans had already stopped outside forces from entering Andor from the Murandian Border.

 

In a meta-plot sort of way, that would allow Mat to meet up with the other half of the band if he were to travel upriver on his way to the Tower of Ghenji.  For there he could send them to wherever makes sense, (I have my own ideas about where that is, but I'll not muddy those waters...)

[DemandredFO]

That's because she listened to Egwene and Nyneave when they said matt was a good for nothing lout despite the fact that Matt came for them in Tear.  She should have made up her own mind but she listened to those two.  Elayne, and Nyneave after the golden crane chapter at least know some about Matt.  Nyneave that he is a great captain and Elayne because of Birgitte maybe some more, Egwene I'm not sure of.

As RAW said we don't know that the 13 are BA but someone freed Taim, there are 13 of them, which can sheild or turn and some others

[Terrapin]

This thread made me realize how much I have forgotten. Think I might need to do a re-read the last couple of books again.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

In a meta-plot sort of way, that would allow Mat to meet up with the other half of the band if he were to travel upriver on his way to the Tower of Ghenji.  For there he could send them to wherever makes sense, (I have my own ideas about where that is, but I'll not muddy those waters...)

Please do, I'd like to know your opinion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Please do, I'd like to know your opinion.

 

He thinks Mat and the Band will go to Illian to collect the Horn.

[Charlz Guybon]

Please do, I'd like to know your opinion.

 

He thinks Mat and the Band will go to Illian to collect the Horn.

Well I do think Mat will end up in Illian, I think Verin will find him long before that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

-sigh-

[Builder]

You sigh a lot don't you?