The Band of the Red Hand in TGS

[Kaznen]

In PoD, Egwene has a circle of 13 Aes Sedai make a Gateway 10 paces tall and 100 paces wide. She moves her entire army, and everyone in the Aes Sedai camp through it. That's probably more than 100000 people all in all.

 

Elayne has enough channelers in Caemlyn to make several Gateways like this(there's more then 100 of the Kin in Caemlyn). When speaking of capacity, Elayne could probably have all the food in Tear moved to Caemlyn in a few days.

(I don't understand why Rand doesn't use Gateways to get food to Arad Doman, he must be insane ;))

 

Yes, Egwene used a circle.  The 13 weakewst AS could link and overpower Rand with his angreal.  And the size of the army is, at most, 40,000 troops plus AS and their retinue.  At most it is 80,000 people in all.

 

Also, a neat thing about circles is people can leav and others take their place while the weaving is still going on and control of the link can be passed.  There are about 300 AS in the SAS camp, so there is plenty of replacements.

[Charlz Guybon]

In PoD, Egwene has a circle of 13 Aes Sedai make a Gateway 10 paces tall and 100 paces wide. She moves her entire army, and everyone in the Aes Sedai camp through it. That's probably more than 100000 people all in all.

 

Elayne has enough channelers in Caemlyn to make several Gateways like this(there's more then 100 of the Kin in Caemlyn). When speaking of capacity, Elayne could probably have all the food in Tear moved to Caemlyn in a few days.

(I don't understand why Rand doesn't use Gateways to get food to Arad Doman, he must be insane ;))

 

Yes, Egwene used a circle.  The 13 weakewst AS could link and overpower Rand with his angreal.  And the size of the army is, at most, 40,000 troops plus AS and their retinue.  At most it is 80,000 people in all.

 

Also, a neat thing about circles is people can leav and others take their place while the weaving is still going on and control of the link can be passed.  There are about 300 AS in the SAS camp, so there is plenty of replacements.

Egwene's army is 50,000 men strong.

[Zen]

I did not read this entire thread just the first couple of pages.  I want to throw a little bit of a monkey wrench into your ideas.  Not saying anyone is wrong just something it seems everyone is overlooking with sending th eband her or there.

 

Matt is a brilliant general, perhaps the best general alive right now (who really knows) and his "army" is not a conscript army, it is a full out volunteer army.  It is a very skilled army however, how did Matt gather this large volunteer army?  By leading them into and out of battle with minimal losses.  Many times throughout the books the point is made that the men follow Matt due to his luck and skill.

 

Now Matt has been away from the Band for a long time, and while his army is growing by traveling and picking up strays here and there, the core of the army is there for Matt.  Matt needs to return to his army soon imho to keep the core of the army content and moral high and reinforce his role as the leader. Matt knows this instinctively.  That being said, I believe he will return to the Band as soon as possible, be it he goes to them or has them come to him.

[Kaznen]

Mat is the best general right now.  He has the experince of hundreds of soldier's lifetimes over a span of about 1200 years (before the Trolloc Wars until near Hawkwing's death).  And that time was the golden age of miltary in Randland, armies were organized in national armies instead of following one lord or another.

 

In the waste he learned how to condense and distill all the info for general use (no pun intended) and is able to call on any memory he needs.

 

He doesn't just win battles, some of the battles had high losses, but he is able to crush the other side even when outnumbered.

 

Gareth Bryne told Egwene he heard Mat never loses.  I have no doupt that if the SAS army attacked the Band in LoC Mat would have won.  And Uno and crew would have defected but that's beside the point.  (I also think Talmanes and Uno worked out a way to increase dragonsworn in the SAS army, I don't think the "deserters" who joined Bryne are deserters at all.)

[Mr Ares]

I'm sorry that hurts your feelings, and I'm sure that Amsterdam is a very nice place. And if it makes you feel better, I live in a historical backwater too.

America?

 

Shadowspawn aren't going to be menacing any southern cities in this book(its only the first of a trilogy, so she doesn't need the Band for that).

Only the first of a trilogy...Has anyone told Elayne that? How does she know she won't have a use for the Band in the near future, what with the imminence of TG?

[RobertAlexWillis]

America?

 

Of course.

[Charlz Guybon]

Mat is the best general right now.  He has the experince of hundreds of soldier's lifetimes over a span of about 1200 years (before the Trolloc Wars until near Hawkwing's death).  And that time was the golden age of miltary in Randland, armies were organized in national armies instead of following one lord or another.

 

In the waste he learned how to condense and distill all the info for general use (no pun intended) and is able to call on any memory he needs.

 

He doesn't just win battles, some of the battles had high losses, but he is able to crush the other side even when outnumbered.

 

Gareth Bryne told Egwene he heard Mat never loses.  I have no doupt that if the SAS army attacked the Band in LoC Mat would have won.  And Uno and crew would have defected but that's beside the point.  (I also think Talmanes and Uno worked out a way to increase dragonsworn in the SAS army, I don't think the "deserters" who joined Bryne are deserters at all.)

Successful generals think of logistics before tactics, there's no way Mat is going to march 30,000 men in to the underpopulated expanse of western Andor.

[Kaznen]

Successful generals think of logistics before tactics, there's no way Mat is going to march 30,000 men in to the underpopulated expanse of western Andor.

 

As I said earlier:

 

Another point, Mat is a ta'veren and he "finds what he needs when he needs it, even before he knows he needs it."  If the pattern decided the Band needed to go into the Aiel Waste, he would be able to feed them because the pattern would find a way.  So if the pattern tells him to take is Band someplace, like he is told to go to the Tower of Ghenji, he will be able to find a way to feed them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Kaznen ... you could use that argument to say that the Band is going literally anywhere in the world.  The Pattern would still have to have a reason to "tell" him to take the Band to the Tower of Ghenjei.  What are they going to do there?  Sit on their collective behinds?  They can't go in with him.  They can't help him in any way.  And, as fast as the Band moves, Mat can still get there quicker without them.

 

What possible use could the Band be to him, sitting on their hind-parts in the woods?  On the other hand, if they go to someone who can make gateways, and explain where he is and that he needs to be picked up at some point, he can get back into action without walking for several weeks.  I imagine his orders would sound something like this, "OK, guys, I'm going to stick my bloody guts in the fire again.  Its not something you can help with (as much as I flaming wish you could; being a general has to be safer than this) so instead I want you to go to Caemlyn.  Elayne should be there.  Hopefully she's on the throne by now, if not, Talmanes, gauge the situation and help her if you can.  Then, if you can get her nose out of the air long enough to listen, tell her that I'm going to be here *pointing to a map* and ask her (as nicely as you bloody have to) to send one of the Sisters or Windfinders or Kin with her to make a gateway so I can meet up with you in Caemlyn.  I don't know what condition we'll flaming be in when we come out, so a small group of you arrange times to check every day starting in, say, a month.  I'll be near a bloody two hundred foot tall metal tower.  Can't miss it. Blood and bloody ashes if she doesn't owe me at least that much for Ebou Dar, not that she'll ever take her chin down long enough to admit it."

 

There are an awful lot of possibilities here.  Including possibilities where they don't go to Caemlyn.  But I honestly cannot foresee any reason why Mat would want or need the entire Band to follow him to the Tower of Ghenjei.  He has to do this with Thom and Noal.  They can't help him there, but they potentially can help him somewhere else.  Caemlyn seems the most likely to me because 1) its in the direction they're already going, 2) he knows there are friendly channelers there, 3) there is a ruler there who, although he doesn't especially like her, he can trust her not to try to co-opt the Band, and 4) she's also a ruler who he knows Rand trusts, and so might be able to put him back in contact with Rand, via gateway.

 

I really cannot overstate the tactical value of gateways, and Mat is fully cognizant of that.  Whitebridge and points slightly north?  No gateways.

[Majsju]

What possible use could the Band be to him, sitting on their hind-parts in the woods?  On the other hand, if they go to someone who can make gateways, and explain where he is and that he needs to be picked up at some point, he can get back into action without walking for several weeks.  I imagine his orders would sound something like this, "OK, guys, I'm going to stick my bloody guts in the fire again.  Its not something you can help with (as much as I flaming wish you could; being a general has to be safer than this) so instead I want you to go to Caemlyn.  Elayne should be there.  Hopefully she's on the throne by now, if not, Talmanes, gauge the situation and help her if you can.  Then, if you can get her nose out of the air long enough to listen, tell her that I'm going to be here *pointing to a map* and ask her (as nicely as you bloody have to) to send one of the Sisters or Windfinders or Kin with her to make a gateway so I can meet up with you in Caemlyn.  I don't know what condition we'll flaming be in when we come out, so a small group of you arrange times to check every day starting in, say, a month.  I'll be near a bloody two hundred foot tall metal tower.  Can't miss it. Blood and bloody ashes if she doesn't owe me at least that much for Ebou Dar, not that she'll ever take her chin down long enough to admit it."

 

There are an awful lot of possibilities here.  Including possibilities where they don't go to Caemlyn.  But I honestly cannot foresee any reason why Mat would want or need the entire Band to follow him to the Tower of Ghenjei.  He has to do this with Thom and Noal.  They can't help him there, but they potentially can help him somewhere else.  Caemlyn seems the most likely to me because 1) its in the direction they're already going, 2) he knows there are friendly channelers there, 3) there is a ruler there who, although he doesn't especially like her, he can trust her not to try to co-opt the Band, and 4) she's also a ruler who he knows Rand trusts, and so might be able to put him back in contact with Rand, via gateway.

 

I really cannot overstate the tactical value of gateways, and Mat is fully cognizant of that.  Whitebridge and points slightly north?  No gateways.

 

Indeed, this seems by far the most likely action Mat would take. Especially considering that the greater part of the Band already sits in Andor, after they got "kicked out" from Murandy.

Also, with Rand jumpoing around all over the place, Mat would have some difficulties fulfilling the promise to bring Aludra to him to start manufacturing the dragons. He can however let Aludra go with the Band to Andor, and let her talk to Elayne. If the dragons are to play any part in TG, that needs to happen very soon.

This could also allow for Setalle Anan to come to Caemlyn, and get a look at Elaynes collection of ter'angreal (and to learn that there is a possibility for her to be Healed).

 

 

[Assunbata Vatana]

Uhm... A question: How do we knows greater part of the Band been going to Andor?

 

Is this reason? : "I sent three men to try climbing over with the orders sending the Band to Andor. One broke his neck, and another his leg."

[Majsju]

When Talmanes hooks up with Mat in KOD, he says that he sent most of the Band to Andor, and thus only brought a portion with him to participate in Mats little campaign.

[CUBAREY]

I imagine his orders would sound something like this, "OK, guys, I'm going to stick my bloody guts in the fire again.  Its not something you can help with (as much as I flaming wish you could; being a general has to be safer than this) so instead I want you to go to Caemlyn.  Elayne should be there.  Hopefully she's on the throne by now, if not, Talmanes, gauge the situation and help her if you can.  Then, if you can get her nose out of the air long enough to listen, tell her that I'm going to be here *pointing to a map* and ask her (as nicely as you bloody have to) to send one of the Sisters or Windfinders or Kin with her to make a gateway so I can meet up with you in Caemlyn.  I don't know what condition we'll flaming be in when we come out, so a small group of you arrange times to check every day starting in, say, a month.  I'll be near a bloody two hundred foot tall metal tower.  Can't miss it. Blood and bloody ashes if she doesn't owe me at least that much for Ebou Dar, not that she'll ever take her chin down long enough to admit it."

 

Harriet may have gone wrong in giving the job of finishing AMOL to Sanderson she should have checked in Dragonmount first. ;D ;) Very nice work in writing how Mat could react . :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... that dialogue was a little unpolished, but I catch myself empathizing with Mat an awful lot ...  ;D  I'll happily leave it to Brandon ... though ... I wouldn't mind being a scrub assistant with access to the notes!  ;D  I'll fetch Alan and Maria coffee, pick up Harriet's dry cleaning, polish Brandon's shoes, yes sir, I'm ready to go!

[MikeRiley]

Mat wouldn't ask for a sister to help him. He also wouldn't send an army anywhere relying on his being ta'veren (in response to a post on the previous page). He doesn't trust the whole "getting what he needs when he needs it" himself, and there's no saying it would work for the band. He's a good general, that means he knows better than to say "Ah, I'm sure you can handle it. Hunt something."

[RobertAlexWillis]

Mat wouldn't ask for a sister to help him.

 

Mat has already specifically asked for and made plans based on using gateways made by the wondergirls.  Mat wouldn't ask just any Sister, but he wouldn't have a problem asking Elayne to send someone.

[MikeRiley]

I'm not sure. He might say to send Nynaeve but he doesn't trust the others. I can see him planning the march back himself not wanting to rely on the power.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, given what we've already seen him do in the actual books, I think otherwise.

[Ziggdiezan]

if Elyane tries to absorb the red hand into queens guards its gonna be funny to see her try lol. They are oppsosites. Queen guard/her body guard have very flashy well eveything. while the band has dull greens to blend in. one is to try attention/think they arent dangerous, while the other is hit and run tacticts while not letting them know how many/where you are.

[Kaznen]

if Elyane tries to absorb the red hand into queens guards its gonna be funny to see her try lol. They are oppsosites. Queen guard/her body guard have very flashy well eveything. while the band has dull greens to blend in. one is to try attention/think they arent dangerous, while the other is hit and run tacticts while not letting them know how many/where you are.

 

And the Guard doesn't like the Band at all after being schooled by them 3 times in Cairhien and getting kicked out of that town acroos the river from Aringill.

[MikeRiley]

Those were Rahvin's guards, none of them should be in the current Queen's Guard.

[Charlz Guybon]

Those were Rahvin's guards, none of them should be in the current Queen's Guard.

Yeah, they were just thugs.

 

Anyways, no one ever said that Elayne would try to incorporate the Band into the Queen's Gaurd, just that she might hire them as a mercenary force.

[Kaznen]

Those were Rahvin's guards, none of them should be in the current Queen's Guard.

Yeah, they were just thugs.

 

No, Rahvin removed the Guardsmen loyal to Morgase, except Tallenvor(?), by discharging the older men and deploying the younger, fit, and experenced Guardsmen to fight in Cairhien (old politcal trick to remove potential enemies) except for the White Lions.

 

Mat even said the Guardsmen the Band captured weren't to happy that Lord Gaberil was king and he commented to Rand how happy they would be if Elayne became queen.

 

Elayne's second in command of the Queen's Guard, Charlz Guybon, was in Aringil because the Band drove the Queen's Guard out of Cairhien.

[Charlz Guybon]

Those were Rahvin's guards, none of them should be in the current Queen's Guard.

Yeah, they were just thugs.

 

No, Rahvin removed the Guardsmen loyal to Morgase, except Tallenvor(?), by discharging the older men and deploying the younger, fit, and experenced Guardsmen to fight in Cairhien (old politcal trick to remove potential enemies) except for the White Lions.

 

Mat even said the Guardsmen the Band captured weren't to happy that Lord Gaberil was king and he commented to Rand how happy they would be if Elayne became queen.

 

Elayne's second in command of the Queen's Guard, Charlz Guybon, was in Aringil because the Band drove the Queen's Guard out of Cairhien.

 

"If you wish to find loyal men, you must look to the outlying garrisons, perhaps as far as Whitebridge. Some who were in Caemlyn were sent to Cairhein with the levies, but the rest in the city are Gabriel's to a man." - Tallanvor FoH254

 

It seem to me that most of the troops in Cairhein are levies from the houses that support Gabriel or his White Lions.

[Kaznen]

Those were Rahvin's guards, none of them should be in the current Queen's Guard.

Yeah, they were just thugs.

 

No, Rahvin removed the Guardsmen loyal to Morgase, except Tallenvor(?), by discharging the older men and deploying the younger, fit, and experenced Guardsmen to fight in Cairhien (old politcal trick to remove potential enemies) except for the White Lions.

 

Mat even said the Guardsmen the Band captured weren't to happy that Lord Gaberil was king and he commented to Rand how happy they would be if Elayne became queen.

 

Elayne's second in command of the Queen's Guard, Charlz Guybon, was in Aringil because the Band drove the Queen's Guard out of Cairhien.

 

"If you wish to find loyal men, you must look to the outlying garrisons, perhaps as far as Whitebridge. Some who were in Caemlyn were sent to Cairhein with the levies, but the rest in the city are Gabriel's to a man." - Tallanvor FoH254

 

It seem to me that most of the troops in Cairhein are levies from the houses that support Gabriel or his White Lions.

Sending politcal enimies away from their powerbase was very popular tactic in old times.  And sending them to a war is even better, they might get killed and there would be no way to pin their death on you.

 

Rand has used this tactic at least three times.  First when he sent the Tairen High Lords who were conspireing against him to Cairhien on his "mission of mercy" then in PoD when the nobles in his army (half of whom were levies) except the Illianers were the Cairhienin and Tairen nobles who were still conspiring against him (some of whom did die) and afterwards when he left the nobles in Cairhien or Illian where they couldn't get into trouble.

 

I'm not denieing that all the nobles and guardsmen in Caemlyn are Rahvin's sychophants(?) but the nobles, levies, and and gaurdsmen sent to Cairhien were loyal to the queen, that is why they were sent.  To get them away from her and possibly die fighting in the Cairhien Cluster@&$% or exile and/or discharge them from service to the court, like what happened to Gareth Bryne, Henri Halsin, Dyelin and her later supporters.  The reason Tallavor said the closest guardsmen aviable were in Whitebridge is because the ones in Cairhien were fighting a war on the Queen's orders.

 

In fact, CB, I prepared for this argument (oddly enough I expected you to bring it up, wierd):

 

"I'll tell you one thing," Mat was going on.  "There are a lot of queen's men down there.  They are not so sure about fighting for a king.  You find Elayne.  Half of them will flock to you to put her on the-"  Mat, tFoH page 864.