Jain Farstrider and the Finns(POSSIBLE SPOILERS)

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I know it isn't a certainty, but it has been heavily suggesting that Noal will be the third party who accompanies Mat and Thom into the Tower of Ghengi.  Recently I've been wondering why RJ chose Noal as the third party and I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps Noal aka Jain Farstrider may have had some pervious dealings with the Finns.  I can't say exactly what those dealings may have been but I see it being one of two general premises:

 

1. Jain Farstrider somehow managed to cheat the Finns and is now a wanted man in Finnland.  It could play out such that Noal/Jain willingly gives himself to the Finns in exchange for Moiraine's release.

 

2.  Jain Farstrider is a very fameous person in Randland, but none the less Noal continually speaks of the the foolishness of his "cousin."  Could it be that Jain achieved his fame by making a deal with the Finns.  Perhaps in exchange for Fame, or more likely the capability to achieve said fame, Jain made a deal with the Finns in which he gave up something very important which he now regrets parting with.  This deal could perhaps be the foolishness for which Noal denounces Jain.  Could it be that Noal has more to reclaim from the Finns than just Moiraine?

 

Any thought?

[Razor]

A fool because he was played by Baalzamon?

[MikeRiley]

I thought he might be that old man who slept for a hundred years under the tree of life and was granted 3 wishes. I mean, the doorway is right by the tree and you do get 3 wishes at a price. He could have embellished it and the finns just aged him a bit as the price. If any non-aiel went to Rhuidean in the last few thousand years it would have been him. That's just speculation though and there's (to my knowledge) no reason to believe he's ever been to Finnland.

[Kaznen]

MAt was the first wetlander to enter Rhudien.  There has never been any indication that Jain has even been in the waste.

 

And we know Jain/Noal doesn't know were the Tower of Ghenji is because he said, "Jain always wanted to find the Tower of Ghenji" in KoD.

 

I think he views it as one last big adventure.

[DemandredFO]

wasn't the tree somewhere for a time.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

MAt was the first wetlander to enter Rhudien.

 

The first that we know of, that is.

 

There has never been any indication that Jain has even been in the waste.

 

The irony of Jain Farstrider is that while the book containing his travels seems to be quite popular in Randland we have been privy to none of it.  Who know where Jain has been.

 

And we know Jain/Noal doesn't know were the Tower of Ghenji is because he said, "Jain always wanted to find the Tower of Ghenji" in KoD.

 

Indeed he does want to find it, but why?  Ah, the plot thickens.

 

All and all, I think there must be more to Jain/Noal than just being a fameous adventurer who some of the main characters happened to meet and befriend.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

Jain Farstrider was Malkieri wasn't he? It was my understanding that borderlanders would enter the Waste as well as the Blight. We also know Farstrider has been to Shara beyond the Waste. There was another guy who saw Rhuidean and described it as a city floating in clouds, so it wouldn't be unheard of. That seems a pretty accurate description for a city encased in fog so thick only the tops of the towers were visible.

[Osan`gar]

on the thought that jain/noal could not have been to the tower of ghenji because he doesnt know where it is:

 

#1 perhaps there is more than one twisted redstone ter'angreal doorway that jain found at another location so that it doesnt matter that he doesnt known where ther tower of ghenji is.

 

#2 perhaps there are alternative methods other than the doorways.

 

#3 nowhere is it said that jain never went to the waste or that no wetlander ever went to rhuidean. it was stated that it is forbidden for a wet lander to go. but hell if you dont get caught you dont pay the price.

 

#4 we know that the tower of ghenji exists in the dream world since slayer went into it and hopper refused to let perrin pursue. it follows, by inference, that entering the tower in the dream world is as dangerous as entering in the real world. so all jain/noal would have to do is to get into the dream world, and enter that way. as we have seen that is not so hard as once thought.

 

basically there are infinite unknown possibilities to explain this.

[Majsju]

we know that the tower of ghenji exists in the dream world since slayer went into it and hopper refused to let perrin pursue. it follows, by inference, that entering the tower in the dream world is as dangerous as entering in the real world. so all jain/noal would have to do is to get into the dream world, and enter that way. as we have seen that is not so hard as once thought.

 

 

For starters, we do not know if Slayer actually entered the tower, or if he just lured Perrin there, hoping that Perrin would be stupid enough to follow him inside.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

He had no reason to believe Perrin would know how to enter it. Birgitte told him while he was trying to figure it out that it was hard to enter it in the real world and harder to leave, and moreso doing it from the world of dreams.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Jain Charin aka Jain Farstrider aka Noal Charin:

Worlds greatest explorer, he has survived encounters with the Forsaken and has vast knowledge of the whole world, including the lands beyond the Aiel Waste.  He has published a book about his deeds.  Despite his age he is quite dangerous with a pair of long knives.

 

Matrim Cauthon aka Prince of Ravens aka Son of Battles:

Immune to the touch of the One Power and infused with the knowledge of a thousand lifetimes of battle, Mat is deadly as an enemy, both in close quarters with his power-wrought Ashandarei, and also as a general with his private army the Band of the Red Hand.  He is a compulsive gambler but nearly always wins.

 

Thomdril Merrilin aka Grey Fox

Thom is a Court Bard and a Gleeman, and possesses the skills to be one of the best in his trade.  His quick eyes and hands make him a dangerous knife fighter, especially at a distance.  Thom is one of the best player of Daes Dae'mar alive.

 

Lady Moiraine of House Damodred, Aes Sedai:

Aes Sedai of the Blue Ajha, Moiraine has a vast network of eyes and ears and know all about current events in the world.  Skilled in the use of Saidar, Moiraine survived a fight with Aginor, killed Be'lal, and took out Lanfear.  Rivaling the Grey Fox in the Game of Houses, Moiraine guided the Dragon Reborn through his awakening and risked her life to save him from Lanfear.

 

 

 

...I never really thought about it before, but that is one badass team.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Perhaps in exchange for Fame, or more likely the capability to achieve said fame, Jain made a deal with the Finns in which he gave up something very important which he now regrets parting with.  This deal could perhaps be the foolishness for which Noal denounces Jain.  Could it be that Noal has more to reclaim from the Finns than just Moiraine?

 

Noal says that Jain was a fool because, "He went gallivanting about the world and left a good and loving wife to die of a fever without him there to hold her hand while she died.  He let himself be made into a tool by -"

 

(KOD ch 6)

 

I think it is safe to insert "Ba'alzamon" where Noal broke off, given what we know from TEOTW ch 42.

 

Noal regrets leaving his wife, and not being there when she died.  He regrets being used by the Shadow (and he may well be still being used, given his reaction at the end of that statement).  It is not some deal with the 'finns.

 

MAt was the first wetlander to enter Rhudien.

 

 

The first that we know of, that is.

 

Given the Eelfinn's reaction, Mat was the first in a long, long time.  As in probably since the Breaking, or at the very least, since the abandoning of Rhuidean.

 

Thats just my opinion, of course, but it seems very unlikely that Jain Farstrider ever entered Rhuidean.

 

Could it be that Jain achieved his fame by making a deal with the Finns.

 

Jain achieved his fame by traveling a lot and writing a book about it.

 

so all jain/noal would have to do is to get into the dream world, and enter that way. as we have seen that is not so hard as once thought

 

What have we seen that would make that easier?  Jain isn't a Dreamwalker or a Wolfbrother.

 

For starters, we do not know if Slayer actually entered the tower, or if he just lured Perrin there, hoping that Perrin would be stupid enough to follow him inside.

 

Indeed.  In fact, given how the 'finns feel about the Shadow, I doubt it would have been a good idea for Slayer to enter.  The Tower of Ghenjei was meant as a trap for Perrin.  Trappers don't stick themselves in their own trap.

 

He had no reason to believe Perrin would know how to enter it.

 

Its still a no lose situation for Slayer.  Either Perrin bangs his head on the Tower for a while, and thus loses Slayer, or he figures out a way in, and is in even deeper crap.  There's no way Slayer can lose.  If it doesn't work as a trap, its still a distraction.

 

...I never really thought about it before, but that is one badass team.

 

It is a badass team, although I have a feeling Moiraine is going to be in pretty bad shape when they find her.  Not to mention unable to channel.

[Majsju]

He had no reason to believe Perrin would know how to enter it. Birgitte told him while he was trying to figure it out that it was hard to enter it in the real world and harder to leave, and moreso doing it from the world of dreams.

 

She says nothing about it being hard to enter, only that it is hard enough to leave in the real world, and all but impossible in T'a'r.

 

There is a fun nod to mythology here from RJ that can be worth keeping in mind. The finns are based on the faeries in Irish mythology, and the TOD is in its purpose similar to the faeries rocks that lies scathered around Ireland. The way to enter (or rather get drawn in, as the faeries world was no place a man would ever want to visit) was to walk around it three times in a certain direction, can not remember which one atm. Interestingly enough, Perrin is stopped after having completed two laps around the tower.

 

Ok, a little sidetrack there, back to Slayer. He knows about the shadows interest in Perrin, if there was a connection between Slayer and the finns, why in the world would he want to give away such a bit of information to his enemy? Especially since Slayer is in T'a'r in the flesh, and can step out anywhere in the world? And the way Slayer disappears points to him simply stepping out of T'a'r, rather than performing the ritual that allows entrance to TOG.

 

And even if Perrin does not manage to get in and get stuck, it could give Slayer a chance to hunt down Perrins physical body, and put a knife in it.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Noal regrets leaving his wife, and not being there when she died.  He regrets being used by the Shadow (and he may well be still being used, given his reaction at the end of that statement).

 

True, but then Noal regrets a lot of things I doubt this list is all inclusive.  Involvement with the Finns could be among his regrets.

 

I think it is safe to insert "Ba'alzamon" where Noal broke off, given what we know from TEOTW ch 42.

 

What do we know?  Please remind me.  My copy of TEotW is 8 hours away from me at the moment.

 

Jain achieved his fame by traveling a lot and writing a book about it.

 

Indeed, hence the "or more likely the capability to achieve [fame]."  Perhaps the Finns game him something that helped him to become such a great adventurerer.  Something that allowed my to survive all his quests.

 

Ok, I'll admit that this theory is a long shot, but I figured it would provide for some fresh discussion material, something that has become scarce as the 4 year mark since the last publication of WOT material approaches.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

True, but then Noal regrets a lot of things I doubt this list is all inclusive.  Involvement with the Finns could be among his regrets.

 

I suppose that he doesn't say "these are the only things I ever regretted", but there's no indication that the 'finns are involved at all.  I mean, if we can just add anything whether he mentioned it or not, then we can add anything to his list of regrets.

 

What do we know?  Please remind me.  My copy of TEotW is 8 hours away from me at the moment.

 

Jain Farstrider disappeared into the Blight in 981 NE (approx 19-20 years before the events in TEOTW) according to TEOTW Glossary.  According to Loial in TEOTW ch 42, he showed up almost dead (although physically uninjured) at Stedding Shangtai.  He quickly got well inside the stedding (because he was cut off from some effect of the Power?) and said he had to go to Tar Valon to tell someone that the Dark One intended to blind the Eye, and kill the Great Serpent, to kill time itself.  In TEOTW ch 51, when Ba'alzamon is listing the ways in which he began setting Rand's path from the day he was born, he speaks of "Jain Farstrider, a hero whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me."

 

Indeed, hence the "or more likely the capability to achieve [fame]."

 

I'm sorry ... are the Eelfinn supposed to have given him those abilities after he somehow got into Rhuidean on his own?

 

He was a famous hero from the time he was young, for bringing in Cowin Fairheart the traitor just before the fall of Malkier.  I just don't see the need to have the Eelfinn involved at all.

 

Ok, I'll admit that this theory is a long shot, but I figured it would provide for some fresh discussion material, something that has become scarce as the 4 year mark since the last publication of WOT material approaches

 

Well, I can certainly understand that motive!  ;D

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

'm sorry ... are the Eelfinn supposed to have given him those abilities after he somehow got into Rhuidean on his own?

 

Good point.  Very good point actually.  ;D

[cloglord]

My crazy Farstrider thought also stems from his fame, and his encounter with the Ogier.

 

I think that Farstrider was an agent of Tar Valon, and if that is the case that he was most likely an agent for the brown or the black ajah.

 

I mean Loial says that the crazy EotW man, (AKA Noal/Jain Farstrider) left the stedding after he recovered and said that he was on his way to Tar Valon to relate his story.  This seems to indicate that he had some agenda with Aes Sedai.  Since his warning wasn't disseminated widely enough that Moraine had heard about it, then it seems safe to assume that either Noal did not manange to deliver his message or it was delivered to an Aes Sedai who had some motive not to spread the word.

 

If he was an agent for the black, (Post Ishy encounter) then it does not bode well for our heroes.

 

If he was an agent for the Brown, it just makes me wonder about Verin all the more... 

[Jethro]

What have we seen that would make that easier?  Jain isn't a Dreamwalker or a Wolfbrother.

 

How do we know he isnt a Dreamwalker? How do we know he cant channel? There is definitely more to Jain than we know. Definitely. We cant judge what he can and cant do due to a lack of information. He survived the Blight, on his own as far as we know. I find that a very interesting fact.

 

In EotW when Thom is introduced, Thom says he will tell the tale of Jain being tamed by Susa. Does anyone have any solid information on this? My theory is that Susa was an Aes Sedai, and she bonded him as a Warder.

[RobertAlexWillis]

How do we know he isnt a Dreamwalker? How do we know he cant channel?

 

Well, if you're going that way, then we don't know anything, and therefore, we can make up anything.

 

There have been no indications that he is either a Dreamwalker or a channeler.  Or an alien metamorphed into the form of a human.  Or one of the Beejees, genetically altered, mindwiped, and sent through time to sing the 'finns into submission to Thom's accompaniment.

 

-sigh-

[cloglord]

While it is possible that Jain could learn to channel, it is not possible that he actually knows how to unless he learned it within the last few years.

 

Given his advanced aged, if he had the spark inborn he would have gone crazy and rotted to death long ago.

 

My quess is that Susa is the name of his dead wife.

 

You beat me to it RAW....

[deathgate]

He survived the Blight, on his own as far as we know. I find that a very interesting fact.

 

That makes him formidable but not unique. Lan also went to the blight by himself and survived and is one reason Moiraine wanted him to be her warder so he woudn't eventually die fighting in the blight. Jain was also Malkieri I believe so maybe that is some they or other borderlanders do. I guess he could channel but hasn't he been near someone who would have noticed by now (surely on his trips to Shara they would have)?

[RobertAlexWillis]

He survived the Blight, on his own as far as we know. I find that a very interesting fact.

 

He didn't survive the Blight on his own.  He got captured and deliberately released by Ba'alzamon.

[Jethro]

How do we know he isnt a Dreamwalker? How do we know he cant channel?

 

Well, if you're going that way, then we don't know anything, and therefore, we can make up anything.

 

Its called having an open mind RAW, not making shit up. In the same breath I say we dont know anything so you shouldnt say he isnt a Dreamwalker. You dont know that. I have seen you point others out for doing the same thing you're doing right now. I find it very hard to believe we get clues about absolutely everything about everyone beforehand. So just because theres nothing to make us believe Noal can channel it doesnt rule out the possibility, especially since hes only been on screen for a total of about five minutes, and he has a role in AMoL meaning its entirely possible for us to learn new things that on the off chance DIDNT have a crapload of foreshadowing.

 

That makes him formidable but not unique. Lan also went to the blight by himself and survived and is one reason Moiraine wanted him to be her warder so he woudn't eventually die fighting in the blight. Jain was also Malkieri I believe so maybe that is some they or other borderlanders do. I guess he could channel but hasn't he been near someone who would have noticed by now (surely on his trips to Shara they would have)?

 

Nobody can sense the ability to channel in a man unless they do the test Taim showed us. If nobody thought to test Noal, then nobody would know he could.

 

I dont necessarily think he can channel, its just I am very reluctant to dismiss new possibilities just because there isnt foreshadowing. Yes, Wheel of Time containts a hell of a lot of forshadowing, but not EVERYTHING has foreshadowing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its called having an open mind RAW, not making shit up.

 

Look ... there's having an open mind, and then there is making stuff up.  When we have seen a good bit of a character, and seen no indications of something, then its not reasonable to simply assume that he'll conveniently pop up with an ability that might have let him do something else that we also haven't seen and have no reason to believe.

 

And I'll thank you to keep a civil tongue.  Swearing doesn't make you seem tough or smart, it simply demonstrates your frustration and the limits of your vocabulary and imagination.

 

So just because theres nothing to make us believe Noal can channel it doesnt rule out the possibility

 

Of course it doesn't.  It also doesn't rule out the other options I proposed. 

 

Or these:

 

Maybe Thom can secretly learn to channel, and he just doesn't know yet.  Nothing we've seen proves he can't.  Maybe Olver sees visions like Min and is just too shy to tell anyone.  Maybe Demandred is secretly a double agent, and got himself caught in the Bore just so he could later turn on the Dark One when it would do the most damage.  Nothing we've seen PROVES that can't happen.

 

Just because something isn't proven to be impossible is not enough reason to think that it is reasonable or likely.

 

he has a role in AMoL meaning its entirely possible for us to learn new things that on the off chance DIDNT have a crapload of foreshadowing.

 

To fulfill his foreshadowed role in AMoL, he doesn't need to be anything more than what he already is.  And we will find new things out about him; we'll find out exactly how Ishamael/Moridin plans to use him.

 

As always, you are perfectly free to disagree.  Please do so civilly.

[CUBAREY]

I think that Farstrider was an agent of Tar Valon, and if that is the case that he was most likely an agent for the brown or the black ajah.

 

I mean Loial says that the crazy EotW man, (AKA Noal/Jain Farstrider) left the stedding after he recovered and said that he was on his way to Tar Valon to relate his story.

 

How about if he was Verin's agent. Would explain much about her secret plans.