The Gathering Storm Finished

[vainebekonnes]

When a 3 year old throws a temper tantrum, you can try to explain it to them like Majsju did, but that rarely has any effect.  Rather, the way that I have found that is best to deal with temper tantrums is to simply ignore them.  When someone throws a temper tantrum because they aren't getting their way, normally they are seeking attention for all the "horrible wrongs" that have been thrust upon them.  If you ignore the petulant child when they are being unreasonable, I have found after a while the tantrums stop.  Obviously this does not work all the time, but it is the way that I usually deal with it.  It's worked out pretty well for me so far.

[water_seeker]

Thanks a lot Jonn...now I want some candy.

[Majsju]

And now Majsju is explicitly telling people to shut up.

 

 

 

Uhm, no. What I am telling people is what I as a person think about their behaviour.

 

Had I told anyone to shut up it would have been something along the lines of "Stop complaining about the titles, or I will have to lock this (and similar) threads."

It should not take many minutes to see that I have never said any such thing in regards to this.

 

 

 

Which is an opinion you're entirely entitled to both have and express.

 

Difference is, now that I have expressed that opinion, I see no reason to repeat the same thing over and over again, spread out over 3-4 different threads... ;D

[Mr Ares]

You honestly don't feel that The Great Hunt is a sh*tty title? I think it's far worse than "The Gathering Storm" or "Shifting/Swirling Winds."

It's not a brilliant title, but it does at least appear to have some relevance to what happens in that book. Fires of Heaven just seems like he thought it was a cool title  and then came up with a bit of prophecy to justify having it. Gathering Storm is just really generic. But I think Shifting Winds is worse than The Great Hunt.

 

Its so wonderful to see that the best that Ares can do to defend himself in his reply to me was mostly toss a bunch of personal and demeaning insults around. Way to go Ares. You are the man. [sarcasm]

Actually, I was attacking you and your yellow bellied, spineless crawling, your desire to drag Harriet into any and every argument on this point, drag her name through the mud and then try and claim that I'm (or whoever else you've decided to take against for sharing a perfectly reasonable opinion) the one responsible for saying nasty things about her. You were the one who brought her into this, cowering behind RJ's widow as if this was some sort of shield. You make me sick. Any criticism, no matter how slight, you try and pass off as a personal attack on Harriet - I don't like the cover becomes, in your twisted little mind, Harriet is a slut, or something similar. I don't need to defend myself. You need to stop dragging Harriet into this, because this is realy not about her, and your attempts to make it so are disgusting. I think she deserves better than that. You, evidently, disagree. Is a little respect for RJ's widow really beyond you? Well, as we've already established that respect for his wishes is, this really isn't that much of a stretch. I wasn't defending myself, I was defending Harriet. From you.

 

umm, i guess i can't say the title sucks without getting blamed for thinking Harriet knows nothing about titles and that i know better than her, but whatever, especially if you read the REST of my post.

I think, perhaps, you might need to turn your sarcasm detector on. Considering the rest of my post, that rant against that vermin Vambram, was criticising him for trying to make every disagreement a personal slur against Harriet, I really don't see how you could fail to get that it was not entirely serious. Hell, the bulk of what I said to you was a copy and paste of exactly what he said in the quote at the top of that reply, but with a bit of "Blessed Be Her Name" and "Peace Be Upon Him" thrown in for good measure.

 

And you can whin all you want but like a three year old who is upset because she cannot have a piece of candy your protestations are so much wasted breath.

And you can whine all you want, but your protestations are likewise wasted breath.

Raging about what you cannot change is pointless.

Do not go gentle into that good night, Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

If someone promises me a piece of candy... and then someone else instead offers me a "candy-like" substance that prevents me from having the actual piece of candy I was promised...

 

I will probably say that I prefer to have a piece of candy.

From my perspective, the problem is not so much that we were offered candy and are now being offered something different, it's the reasons why - RJ didn't promise one book just for the hell of it. He promised one book because he felt that any split would be detrimental to the quality of the book. He wanted to produce the best AMoL possible, which required one, big book. This split has not been sold to us the the grounds that this is the best possible version of AMoL, it has been sold to us as the best possible split version of AMoL. It's not that we went from promise-of-candy to promise-of-something-better-than-candy (which RJ would probably have gone for), we have gone from promise-of-candy to you-can't-have-candy-for-some-reason,-here,-have-the-next-best-thing. Mmmmm, delicious next best thing. Back in the early fourties, the excuse was "there's a war on". There's no war now. Just a load of half-arsed excuses. They say it's too big, they say they "have" to get one volume out this year, they say a lot of things. And a lot of them are crap. And then they admit that RJ wouldn't do this, so they are apparently not so in favour of the split that they think this is the best possible version of AMoL, beacause I'm really not convinced RJ would intentionally harm the quality of his work by forcing two or more books into one big one when a refusal to compromise on quality was the reason for his one book promise in the first place. Of course, I don't know why I'm bothering trying to tell people this. No-one was bothered about actually reading a dissenting opinion in the last thread, it'll probably be dismissed with some rubbish that doesn't answer my points and accusations of whining. Anything to shut people up rather than listen to them, and maybe admit they have a point, eh?

[Majsju]

He promised one book because he felt that any split would be detrimental to the quality of the book.

 

RJ never promised it would be one book. He said he would fight against a split, but he never promised he would win such fight. And this was something he said before he knew how bloody long AMOL would have to be.

 

Stick to the facts, and you might actually start to understand the decisions made by the people who know what they are doing.

[Roxinos]

Eh, Ares has a point. Maj has a point. But I'm going to assume that RJ would have come to the same conclusion and decision that Brandon came to while writing if he had been able to.

 

Gathering Storm is just really generic.

 

Yeah, it is pretty generic. Though, in terms of context, within the series, tSR is pretty generic as well. And you've already admitted that tFoH is a pretty generic title.

 

Generic titles just happen. I would prefer if they were each referred to as aMoL vols 1 through 3 with the titles as subtitles. And the subtitles used to refer to them in distribution. But *shrug*

 

But I think Shifting Winds is worse than The Great Hunt.

 

...You like "Rent in Fire and Blood" don't you, Mr. Ares?

[Hemis AlRhoid]

Well like most I would have preferred that AMoL remained one volume instead of 3. But one thing I that hasn't gotten the emphasis it deserves is that Brandon is not making any extra money by making this larger story. He's still making the same amount he would have if he just decided to put out one normal sized volume. I think that says a lot about his integrity and his dedication to the story.

 

One thing that could be heavily influencing the length and decision to split this is that Brandon doesn't know what pieces of the puzzle RJ may have chosen to leave out or allude to. He has snippets of completed story, audio, and notes from RJ, but he can't know what RJ would have later judged as more important if the need to trim the book came up (and we can all guess it probably would have). So I'm sure he took the approach that it all goes in. That way the fans can't complain this or that was left out because of him (RJ would have never done that! etc). But it also means that he doesn't have much, if any, flexibility on the length.

 

No matter how this ends up, it will never be exactly as RJ would have done it. All we can hope for is that what we get is the best approximation possible. And I will reserve judgment on that until I read the last page of the last book.

 

 

[Paradox]

Might as well add my thoughts on this. I treasure every word written in this series, and most written about it. I like reading extensive theories about what, why and how things are going to happening.

 

Take that thread by Luckers for example, the one with the predictions for AMOL, I could almost picture a entire book based on what he wrote. true or false, right or wrong, it didn't matter.

 

My point is simple this, the more extensive the better (we don't know what RJ would've left out). Even if the feature books is some what lacking, in a literary sense, they will make up for it in content (plot developments/conclusions the way RJ intended).

 

As for the titles it's all subjective. I'm okay with The Gathering Storm, hate Swirling this and trumpets that, but it doesn't really matter much. AMOL part 1, 2 and 3 is how I'm going to name them anyway.

[Majsju]

One thing that could be heavily influencing the length and decision to split this is that Brandon doesn't know what pieces of the puzzle RJ may have chosen to leave out or allude to. He has snippets of completed story, audio, and notes from RJ, but he can't know what RJ would have later judged as more important if the need to trim the book came up (and we can all guess it probably would have). So I'm sure he took the approach that it all goes in. That way the fans can't complain this or that was left out because of him (RJ would have never done that! etc). But it also means that he doesn't have much, if any, flexibility on the length.

 

 

Actually, Brandon has a fairly good idea about what to keep and what to toss out, since RJ left extensive instructions about which archs that should get resolved, and which ones that should be left hanging in the air. Sometimes down to individual level, this guy dies, this woman lives, this guys fate should be left unknown...

[CUBAREY]

And you can whine all you want, but your protestations are likewise wasted breath.

 

I admit that castigating unreasonable children (even 80 year old ones) is often a waste of breath.

 

Do not go gentle into that good night, Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

 

How about "The dying of the Light," as the title for the second book.

 

As an aside I found several of Rj"s Title to be uninspired at best and the proposed titles for the three AMOL books definately less then satisfactory, in that I think we can agree.

 

 

[Vambram]

Quote from: Vambram on April 27, 2009, 15:41:05

Its so wonderful to see that the best that Ares can do to defend himself in his reply to me was mostly toss a bunch of personal and demeaning insults around. Way to go Ares. You are the man. [sarcasm]

Actually, I was attacking you and your yellow bellied, spineless crawling, your desire to drag Harriet into any and every argument on this point, drag her name through the mud and then try and claim that I'm (or whoever else you've decided to take against for sharing a perfectly reasonable opinion) the one responsible for saying nasty things about her. You were the one who brought her into this, cowering behind RJ's widow as if this was some sort of shield. You make me sick. Any criticism, no matter how slight, you try and pass off as a personal attack on Harriet - I don't like the cover becomes, in your twisted little mind, Harriet is a slut, or something similar. I don't need to defend myself. You need to stop dragging Harriet into this, because this is realy not about her, and your attempts to make it so are disgusting. I think she deserves better than that. You, evidently, disagree. Is a little respect for RJ's widow really beyond you? Well, as we've already established that respect for his wishes is, this really isn't that much of a stretch. I wasn't defending myself, I was defending Harriet. From you.

 

Again, Ares attempts to defend himself with a post that is filled with little more than personal insults against me. Ares, I once respected you and your opinions. But clearly you have totally misinterpreted what I was saying, and in my mind, you have gone way over the line in proper, polite behaviour here on dragonmount.com

However, I could be wrong, perhaps such behaviour filled with personal insults against another member of this board is perfectly acceptable around here? *shrugs* It matters not really to me. As a 15 year veteran of the U.S. Army, I have been insulted by men far, far, better than you could ever hope to be, Ares. So, please, if insulting me makes you feel good, then continue with your insults. In the meantime, you insults do nothing but make yourself and your opinions look bad.

Have a nice day, Ares.

[Roxinos]

If you cannot say anything related to the topic at hand, do not say anything at all. Stop commenting on Ares' nature and comment on the topic. If you cannot do that, then just do not respond to Ares at all. I haven't seen a single post from you in a while that wasn't related to something Ares said about you.

[Jonn]

Quote from: Vambram on April 27, 2009, 15:41:05

Its so wonderful to see that the best that Ares can do to defend himself in his reply to me was mostly toss a bunch of personal and demeaning insults around. Way to go Ares. You are the man. [sarcasm]

Actually, I was attacking you and your yellow bellied, spineless crawling, your desire to drag Harriet into any and every argument on this point, drag her name through the mud and then try and claim that I'm (or whoever else you've decided to take against for sharing a perfectly reasonable opinion) the one responsible for saying nasty things about her. You were the one who brought her into this, cowering behind RJ's widow as if this was some sort of shield. You make me sick. Any criticism, no matter how slight, you try and pass off as a personal attack on Harriet - I don't like the cover becomes, in your twisted little mind, Harriet is a slut, or something similar. I don't need to defend myself. You need to stop dragging Harriet into this, because this is realy not about her, and your attempts to make it so are disgusting. I think she deserves better than that. You, evidently, disagree. Is a little respect for RJ's widow really beyond you? Well, as we've already established that respect for his wishes is, this really isn't that much of a stretch. I wasn't defending myself, I was defending Harriet. From you.

 

Again, Ares attempts to defend himself with a post that is filled with little more than personal insults against me. Ares, I once respected you and your opinions. But clearly you have totally misinterpreted what I was saying, and in my mind, you have gone way over the line in proper, polite behaviour here on dragonmount.com

However, I could be wrong, perhaps such behaviour filled with personal insults against another member of this board is perfectly acceptable around here? *shrugs* It matters not really to me. As a 15 year veteran of the U.S. Army, I have been insulted by men far, far, better than you could ever hope to be, Ares. So, please, if insulting me makes you feel good, then continue with your insults. In the meantime, you insults do nothing but make yourself and your opinions look bad.

Have a nice day, Ares.

 

I kind of feel like you are taking this a little too personally.

 

He objected to you trying to shame people using Harriet's name as if that's something you should do.

I'll agree with him on that issue. I think it's tasteless and kind of cowardly to wrap your personal feelings up with Harriet's good name.

 

You say that people who disagree can't know more than Harriet, but at the same time you try to represent yourself as someone who would know what Harriet stands for on the issue, when this is sheer fallacy.

 

When we talk about RJ's want for this project to end with the one book, we offer a reference, some quotes...you know actual evidence that he thought that way about A Memory of Light.

The problem is that you want to counter with no evidence whatsoever, not even a reference to hearsay. Your stance is this:

If you disagree with the decisions being made you are insulting Harriet, RJ's wife, who knows more than you...even if it is just a representation of an assumption of what she thinks...contrary to what RJ himself has said in the past several times on the topic...

 

I disagree totally with that. If that insults you, then by God, grow tougher skin. The source is the best source. RJ is the source. He said what he said, and any little semantic arguments of what constitutes a promise or what is the intent...I'm sorry, it's all garbage logic held up so that some of us can win an argument.

 

He said what he said, and you can't work around it. It's a shame that the man can't sit here and defend himself and what he said or intended or promised. It's a shame that he said it and so many support a directive to go totally against what he said

 

AND have convinced themselves that it's honorable.

 

What the man said in life is with us to this day and I respect that. I think it's a slap to the face to go against what he had said publicly about this labor of love of his

 

AND drag Harriet into it like it's a chess piece, a trump card.

 

Note that Brandon Sanderson, a man who never even met RJ, was the one who has done the bulk of the explanations regarding the restructuring of A Memory of Light. Granted he's the author, but the relative silence from the other parties who knew RJ well, including Harriet, speaks volumes.

 

They knew this would be a controversial decision to make and that it would rub a lot of people the wrong way. I don't use the term purist to describe fans of this series much, I've never seen myself as anything approaching a purist, but when people who are relatively moderate and even tempered have a problem and major issues with these books coming out...

 

You cannot sweep that under the rug and hope it won't raise up a stink later on.

 

And sorry, I was temporarily satisfied by Sanderson's statement when it first came out, but as the weeks roll on, my discontent has started to boil again. You cannot just leave it at that. We need more dialogue from the responsible people.

 

Sanderson can only do so much. Tor has some questions to answer. Tough ones. Instead of being complacent, we as fans should be the ones to ask those hard questions...not because we are throwing a tantrum, but because we really care about this. It's important to us.

 

Dragonmount should be the community and site that is prominent enough to ask these questions, not to be annoying, but to act as a representative of ALL the fans and ALL of the people's opinions.

 

You can disagree with me all you want but aren't you curious to get more information from people like Tom Dohrety? Ask him the hard questions, and let's see how he thinks. I'd love to hear what Harriet thinks, but I certainly won't bother her about it. That's rather touchy to ask anyone about someone they have recently lost. My approach is that if she wants to speak about it, then it's up to her.

Sanderson has more than done his part. Let's hear from the boss about this issue. How much does he care that a lot of the decisions being made aren't going over as easily as one could hope?

 

I really am curious, and disappointed that there aren't any more answers. Anyone care to help us out?

[CUBAREY]

You say that people who disagree can't know more than Harriet, but at the same time you try to represent yourself as someone who would know what Harriet stands for on the issue, when this is sheer fallacy.

 

 

You conveniently forget that the decision to split the novel was not made by TOR alone. Harriet was obviously involved in the decision. not only does Brandon Sanderson indicate this in his blog post but as a matter of legal requirements as the Administratrix of RJ's Estate, she had the legal right and duty to be involved in decision that could obviously impact both RJ's financial interests and legacy. Moreover, she joined with Tom Doherty in the much maligned press release. Whether you want to admit it or not Harriet was intimately involved with the decisions that you disaprove of.

 

Moreover, it not like Doherty or Tor could have forced Harriet to agree to a split she did not agree with. After all while Tor may have some legal rights to the manuscript the owner is RJ's Estate. Moreover, forcing a split that would result in a product would be disasterous for TOR. Not only would a bad first book lower the sales of the first book but it would also lower the sales of the second two books. Moreover, as evidenced by what was said in JordanCon, Doherty and TOR still hope to convince Harriet and Sanderson to write and publish the outrigger novels. Not only would a bad ending to the principle WOT series erode the market for the Outrigger novels, but any highhandedness by Tor in the decisionmaking surrounding AMOL would likely lead Harriet and/or Sanderson not to write the outrigger novels at all.

 

Lastly, Sanderson is presently under contract with TOR for unrelated novels. If the thre AMOL books turn out well then Sanderson is likely to inherit many of RJ's fans. If the novels turn out badly he will likely lose the chance that such new fans will hereafter by his unrelated novels.  For TOR the decision to split AMOL thus has much more at stake then the immediate sales such novels might make. Tor is a going concern, it would not likely throw away the possibility of more WOT world novels and the potential inheritance of many of RJ's fans by one of its writers simply to increase this years bottom line.

 

I disagree totally with that. If that insults you, then by God, grow tougher skin. The source is the best source. RJ is the source. He said what he said, and any little semantic arguments of what constitutes a promise or what is the intent...I'm sorry, it's all garbage logic held up so that some of us can win an argument.

 

He said what he said, and you can't work around it. It's a shame that the man can't sit here and defend himself and what he said or intended or promised. It's a shame that he said it and so many support a directive to go totally against what he said

 

You continue to take RJ's statements without putting them in context with other statments about the length of WOT that he had earlier made. Moreover, among those who "support a directive you deem totally against what he said is Harriet who obviously agreed to split AMOL into three books.

 

Dragonmount should be the community and site that is prominent enough to ask these questions, not to be annoying, but to act as a representative of ALL the fans and ALL of the people's opinions.

 

Except of course that many of us who frequent Dragonmount do not necessarily believe that such questions need be answered more then they already have. Moreover, Doherty would likelily point out the same observations that Sanderson made and refer to the fact that harriet concureed (thus putting her in the position of defending her decisions to those fans disgruntled by the decision.

[DemandredFO]

This seems as good a place as any to ask this question.  What, if anything else, do you think will come storming out of the blight besides Trollocs, Myrdraal, Dragkhar, greymen, Darkhounds.  Personally, I think all will come storming out but the only other thing I can think of is Wyrms.  I don't think the trees will come because they aren't evil ents, after all.  Opinions

[Muad Cheade]

Not only will Shadowspawn come south in record numbers, I think there will also be uprisings of Darkfriends as there was in the War of the Shadow, Trolloc Wars, and War of the Hundred Years. Armies of humans who are dedicated to evil would be dangerous. That's pretty much all that the Shadow has at is arsenal. Also, they have gholam but who knows how many are left?

 

I do like how one of the laws of the "universe" is that Shadowspawn can't pass through gateways. I think Lan's army is gong to make the first contact with the Shadowspawn armies coming out of Tarwin's Gap. Hopefully, they can win and slow down the armies, but who knows?

[Ludmian]

He promised one book because he felt that any split would be detrimental to the quality of the book.

 

RJ never promised it would be one book. He said he would fight against a split, but he never promised he would win such fight. And this was something he said before he knew how bloody long AMOL would have to be.

 

Stick to the facts, and you might actually start to understand the decisions made by the people who know what they are doing.

 

Completely irrelevant. RJ wanted the series to end with book 12. He had good reasons not to split the remaining story into more parts (they are mentioned in the quote you responded to, but you chose to ignore that part of the quote and nitpick at not the most important word in it). He had a good title in mind for this last book. That's what matters in this situation. Whether RJ actually said somewhere "I promise you, my dear readers, it will be the last book in the series" or not, is completely irrelevant to the discussion. That's an awkward attempt to lead the discussion from the things that really matter in this situation. And while we are at it, could you, please, provide a quote, where Tor actually promises us a book in Fall 2009?

You say that people who disagree can't know more than Harriet, but at the same time you try to represent yourself as someone who would know what Harriet stands for on the issue, when this is sheer fallacy.

 

 

You conveniently forget that the decision to split the novel was not made by TOR alone. Harriet was obviously involved in the decision. not only does Brandon Sanderson indicate this in his blog post but as a matter of legal requirements as the Administratrix of RJ's Estate, she had the legal right and duty to be involved in decision that could obviously impact both RJ's financial interests and legacy. Moreover, she joined with Tom Doherty in the much maligned press release. Whether you want to admit it or not Harriet was intimately involved with the decisions that you disaprove of.

 

Would you, please, stop hiding behind Harriet's back?!

 

From Brandon's blog:

 

One of the most dominating points was this: it had been four years since the fans had been given KNIFE OF DREAMS. Tom felt that we NEEDED to provide them a book in 2009. They couldn't wait until I finished the entire volume to publish something.

 

The situation is clear, isn't it? Tor threw a tamper tantrum, "I want my candy my book this fall no matter what. And if it is not written yet, so much the worse for the book". Harriet had to obey. Besides being in charge of RJ's estate, she is employed by Tor as well. Maybe they even managed to semi-convince her that it's the best that can be done in this situation, I don't know. But any suggestions that she willingly butchered her husband's last book are really insulting to her.

 

Another quote from Brandon:

 

1200/1400. Harriet emailed me and quipped that the 'vultures at Tor are circling' wondering where their manuscript is. Better hurry! ;)

12:08 PM Apr 21st from Twadget

 

http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson

 

You'll say it's a joke. Sure. But is it the kind of joke you make about people you are on the same side with?

 

And one more quote from Brandon's latest blogpost:

 

As of today, you should be able to find Mistborn: The Hero of Ages in paperback in bookstores around the country.

 

Some people are wondering why the paperback is out so early. Usually it's a year between hardcover and paperback release. Well, this all has to do with the HERO hardcover delay. You see, HERO was originally going to come out in June of last year. But Tor decided to push it back for a couple of reasons. First, they wanted time to do a special promotional version of Mistborn One, to tie into the Wheel of Time announcement. Second, there were vibes that HERO would be one of their biggest books of the year, so they wanted to put it in the holiday season.

 

They shifted it back by four or five months--but Warbreaker and the Hero paperback both remained on the lists where they had been. So, we got the HERO hardcover late, but WARBREAKER is still scheduled for June 2009 and the HERO paperback for this month. Just a quirk of scheduling.

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/782/Hero-of-Ages-Paperback-is-out!

 

Do I need to explain how this quote relates to the situation with AMoL, or is it clear for everyone?

 

You continue to take RJ's statements without putting them in context with other statments about the length of WOT that he had earlier made.

 

Would you, please, tell us what those other statements are and how they relate to the situation with AMoL. Only, please, provide RJ's actual quotes. People here deserve to know what RJ really said, not what someone thinks he said or what someone wants him to have said.

[Majsju]

Completely irrelevant. RJ wanted the series to end with book 12. He had good reasons not to split the remaining story into more parts (they are mentioned in the quote you responded to, but you chose to ignore that part of the quote and nitpick at not the most important word in it). He had a good title in mind for this last book. That's what matters in this situation. Whether RJ actually said somewhere "I promise you, my dear readers, it will be the last book in the series" or not, is completely irrelevant to the discussion. That's an awkward attempt to lead the discussion from the things that really matter in this situation. And while we are at it, could you, please, provide a quote, where Tor actually promises us a book in Fall 2009?

 

 

It is very relevant, since some people insist on claiming that RJ promised AMOL would be one single volume. There is a huge difference between wanting something, and promising something. Something at least RJ seemed aware of, since he never made any promises about AMOL being published as a single volume. He could not possibly have done any such thing, since he had not written the book yet, did not know how many words it would take to tell the story, and at the end of the day, it was not his call to make.

 

What would RJ have done if he had delivered a +800000 word book to TOR, and TOR had told him that either RJ split the book, or he went back to cut 150000 words? Should he have tossed out a chunk of the book just because he had done the mistake of saying he wanted AMOL to be a single volume? Should he have compromised the quality of the story, just because he said he wanted a single volume? Heck, he could just have cut complete chapters, and published them online.

 

 

[Ludmian]

Completely irrelevant. RJ wanted the series to end with book 12. He had good reasons not to split the remaining story into more parts (they are mentioned in the quote you responded to, but you chose to ignore that part of the quote and nitpick at not the most important word in it). He had a good title in mind for this last book. That's what matters in this situation. Whether RJ actually said somewhere "I promise you, my dear readers, it will be the last book in the series" or not, is completely irrelevant to the discussion. That's an awkward attempt to lead the discussion from the things that really matter in this situation. And while we are at it, could you, please, provide a quote, where Tor actually promises us a book in Fall 2009?

 

 

It is very relevant, since some people insist on claiming that RJ promised AMOL would be one single volume. There is a huge difference between wanting something, and promising something. Something at least RJ seemed aware of, since he never made any promises about AMOL being published as a single volume. He could not possibly have done any such thing, since he had not written the book yet, did not know how many words it would take to tell the story, and at the end of the day, it was not his call to make.

 

You deliberately choose to fight a straw man here rather than address real issues. If we replace the word "promised" with "intended to finish it in one more book" or "did not find it possible to divide the remaining part of the story into several more novels" what will change then? And as you seem to be an expert on what can be considered a promise and what can't, I repeat my request. Will you, please, provide a link to Tor's promise to publish AMoL this Fall?

 

 

 

What would RJ have done if he had delivered a +800000 word book to TOR...

 

Again, totally irrelevant. RJ could have done a thousand things. We simply can't know. Though the people who knew him better than all of us combined do think that it's rather unlikely he would have agreed to split AMoL. At the end of the day, it all comes down to three questions:

 

1. Should the author's opinion of how his lifetime's work will be finished be respected?

 

2. Has this whole situation been handled by Tor in a way that respects the author's vision?

 

3. If it's not, has Tor done their best to be as true to RJ's vision as possible?

 

I wonder if you, Maj, or RAW or any other Tor's advocate here will be brave enough to give honest "Yes/No" answers to these questions. Without "ifs" and "buts", without nitpicking at separate words in my post, without speculating on what RJ would have done if he were alive, without alluding to some statements that you claim RJ made in the past. Simply "Yes/No/Yes", or "Yes/Yes/Yes" or whatever.

[Majsju]

You deliberately choose to fight a straw man here rather than address real issues. If we replace the word "promised" with "intended to finish it in one more book" or "did not find it possible to divide the remaining part of the story into several more novels" what will change then? And as you seem to be an expert on what can be considered a promise and what can't, I repeat my request. Will you, please, provide a link to Tor's promise to publish AMoL this Fall?

 

I have never said that TOR have ever promised to publish anything related to WOT this fall, do not involve me in what other people are saying.

 

As for your attempts to rephrase something RJ never said into something else that RJ never said, it does not really change anything.

 

Again, totally irrelevant. RJ could have done a thousand things. We simply can't know. Though the people who knew him better than all of us combined do think that it's rather unlikely he would have agreed to split AMoL.

 

I think we can be very sure what RJ would have done if faced with the choice to either change the story, or change the package...It is sad to see that you question his integrity as an artist by claiming not to know what RJ would have chosen.

 

At the end of the day, it all comes down to three questions:

 

1. Should the author's opinion of how his lifetime's work will be finished be respected?

 

Within reason. That is how the business works, no author has an absolute right to decide every little aspect of the finished product.

 

2. Has this whole situation been handled by Tor in a way that respects the author's vision?

Close enough.

 

3. If it's not, has Tor done their best to be as true to RJ's vision as possible?

Definitly. If publishing AMOL as a single volume had been such a sacred thing to do, they could simply have given Brandon an upper limit to the amount of words he could use to finish the story, but instead they allow him to write the book in a way that tells the best story possible. The package is irrelevant, all that matters is the words inside the covers. 

 

I wonder if you, Maj, or RAW or any other Tor's advocate here will be brave enough to give honest "Yes/No" answers to these questions. Without "ifs" and "buts", without nitpicking at separate words in my post, without speculating on what RJ would have done if he were alive, without alluding to some statements that you claim RJ made in the past. Simply "Yes/No/Yes", or "Yes/Yes/Yes" or whatever.

 

Simplistic 'yes/no' answers are not suitable for a situation like this. Without context, such answers are meaningless.

[Mr Ares]

RJ never promised it would be one book. He said he would fight against a split, but he never promised he would win such fight. And this was something he said before he knew how bloody long AMOL would have to be.

He said it would be finished by book 12. After book 11 came out.

 

Stick to the facts, and you might actually start to understand the decisions made by the people who know what they are doing.

I am sticking to the facts. I always have been.

 

Though' date=' in terms of context, within the series, tSR is pretty generic as well. And you've already admitted that tFoH is a pretty generic title.[/quote']The Shadow Rising is at least specific to this series, what with the baddies being called the Shadow. The Gathering Storm was already used by Churchill and Kate Elliot. Plus, the storm has been gathering for eleven damn books now - it's time to break! The Oncoming Storm would be a slight improvement in that regard, but still not good enough.

 

Generic titles just happen.

Doesn't mean it should be encouraged.

 

...You like "Rent in Fire and Blood" don't you, Mr Ares?

It's an improvement over some of the titles. If the events foretold by that Foretelling took place in the first or second book, that would be a good and relevant title to go with.

 

I admit that castigating unreasonable children (even 80 year old ones) is often a waste of breath.

Particularly when you're in the same boat as us. Who are you calling black, Mr Pot?

 

How about "The dying of the Light," as the title for the second book.

Not ideal. George R.R. Martin already has a book by that title.

 

Again' date=' Ares attempts to defend himself[/quote']You missed the part where I said I wasn't defending myself. Reading helps. You could also try reading my name, because the last time I checked the Mr hadn't fallen off the start. To you, it is Mr Ares, or sir. I'm not bothered.

As a 15 year veteran of the U.S. Army, I have been insulted by men far, far, better than you could ever hope to be, Ares.

I don't care how long you've been in the army, nor which country's armed forces. Being in the forces doesn't say a damn thing about your quality as a human being. I met enough arseholes when I was in the army to say that with some authority. Also, you don't know a damn thing about me, so you can hardly make any sort of qualitative judgement on me as a person, how good I am, nor on how good I could hope to be. What sort of criteria are you using, anyway? Of course, I'm not the guy who attempts to drag Harriet into any and every argument. As I pointed out, that's pretty low.

In the meantime, your insults do nothing but make your opinions look bad.

My insults do nothing to alter the quality of the points I raise. A decent argument doesn't become less so for calling the oppostion an idiot at the end.

 

You continue to take RJ's statements without putting them in context with other statments about the length of WOT that he had earlier made.

If we put them in context, what we have is RJ consistently refusing to make promises about length, just saying he hoped to get it done in x number, it would take at least y more, fingers crossed, no promises, etc., then him saying one more book because (and this is the important part) there was no way to split it without compromising the quality. He said something different this time to what he had said before, and he gave a damn good reason why it should be this way. Couple that with the information from BS's Splitting AMoL article, such as the arbitrary need to put out a book by the end of the year and Harriet and Tom saying they don't think RJ would have split the book, or could split the book. What we end up with it that they are not saying this is the best possible version of the final volume. What they are saying is that this is the best version of AMoL they could come up with given their desire to put a book out by the end of the year. Now, how good TGS will be we cannot determine until we have read it, as with the other books. But it is telling that they don't think RJ would have supported this, as his previous comments suggest his commitment to producing the best finale he could.

 

Now, per Brandon's article, Tor thought the fans needed a book this year. Needed. He stresses the word in his article. Why would they need a book this year? I can think of one reason, but there may be others. It could be that they feel that if they wait until the book is done the fans will drift away. That no-one will care, if they leave it another two years. Rubbish. Fans can wait six years. Look at A Feast For Crows - after a five year wait, it became Martin's first book to top the NYT bestseller list. Tolkien fans bought Children of Hurin as well, despite the author being dead since the 70s. It might, arguably, be nice to give fans a book this year, but it isn't necessary. It is not necessarily even desirable. Perhaps they really do believe the fans cannot wait until the book is complete, despite the fact this is actually quite normal. If so, I don't see how they came to such a conclusion, but can hardly attribute any malice to them. What they have said doesn't quite add up, not without more information. If we look at all the facts we have, not just cherry pick those that we like, we see the picture has a few pieces missing.

 

Should he have compromised the quality of the story' date=' just because he said he wanted a single volume?[/quote']Given that his stated reason for the single volume in the first place was a refusal to compromise on quality, I find that unlikely. He would have produced the best AMoL he could.

[CUBAREY]

Given that his stated reason for the single volume in the first place was a refusal to compromise on quality, I find that unlikely. He would have produced the best AMoL he could.

 

His statement was based on his assessment when all he had were his notes and outlines. After actually being in the process of writing the story for over a year Sanderson is of the impression that there are two natural break points. Would RJ have agreed if he had the advantage of actually writing 400k+ of the story as Sanderson does? Maybe, maybe not. What we know is the person actually writing the end of WOT has no problem in breaking the story into three books.

 

Moreover, even if we waited two years until the entire thing was finished we would still be faced with the practical (if for no other reason then business considerations) of publishing it as one volume, or three volumes published in quick succession.

 

Particularly when you're in the same boat as us. Who are you calling black, Mr Pot?

 

I am not the one throwing a hissy fit because a story will not be published in what I believe is the only manner that the original author would have approved, even though the decision to publish the story as three books was made by the authors wife (who happens to also be the editor of the series) and the President of the publishing company who was a long term friend of the author.

 

 

[Jonn]

This seems as good a place as any to ask this question.  What, if anything else, do you think will come storming out of the blight besides Trollocs, Myrdraal, Dragkhar, greymen, Darkhounds.  Personally, I think all will come storming out but the only other thing I can think of is Wyrms.  I don't think the trees will come because they aren't evil ents, after all.  Opinions

 

I think like how there is now a hybrid Myrdraal like Shadar Haran, there might be a hybrid Trolloc. Smarter, with suicidal courage, harder to kill. Like a fade seeming to need less sustenance, but kills for pleasure as much as purpose. That would be terrifying in larger numbers.

 

Nothing more threatening than the dreadlords, black ajah, Forsaken.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

This seems as good a place as any to ask this question.  What, if anything else, do you think will come storming out of the blight besides Trollocs, Myrdraal, Dragkhar, greymen, Darkhounds.  Personally, I think all will come storming out but the only other thing I can think of is Wyrms.  I don't think the trees will come because they aren't evil ents, after all.  Opinions

 

I think like how there is now a hybrid Myrdraal like Shadar Haran, there might be a hybrid Trolloc. Smarter, with suicidal courage, harder to kill. Like a fade seeming to need less sustenance, but kills for pleasure as much as purpose. That would be terrifying in larger numbers.

 

Nothing more threatening than the dreadlords, black ajah, Forsaken.

 

 

 

Myrdraala are already a half-way hybred between a Trollic and a man. Moreover, I do not think that they would introduce totally new shadowspawn at the end of the story. Now worms and the moving trees could definately make a second appearence, as will dreadlords, etc.

[Majsju]

He said it would be finished by book 12. After book 11 came out.

 

But he never made any promises that book 12 would not be split. Notice the difference?

 

I am sticking to the facts. I always have been.

No, you are not.

 

Given that his stated reason for the single volume in the first place was a refusal to compromise on quality, I find that unlikely. He would have produced the best AMoL he could.

 

You are deliberatly misinterprating what he said. What is important to understand here is that one book split in two (or three) parts is something very different from two completely separate books.

 

In Sweden, all WOT books have been split in two when translated. Does that mean that the Swedish publisher violates RJs "vision"? Should I take my torch and pitchfork and go on a crusade against these heretics?