has egwene done the nasty?

[Casco]

"I will admit that this has been a rather circular discusson, but it is also a good learning experience.  Not only have I learned about others' views on morality, their views on psychology, and how differently the same situation can be viewed by different people, I have learned a lot about posting on discussion boards and have hopefully learned a bit about debating in general.  I wonder how much more I will have to learn before I know how to convince people of my point of view, before I feel like i've spent a couple of weeks on a merry-go-round? 

I've enjoyed it..."

I think you are 100% right there. We all se things different depending on who we are. That´s the good thing with it all, we are different people with different experiences in life and its realy interesting to see how other people think about a very "delicate" problem. Sex is very personal..and we allways get personal thoughts about it, depending on who talks about it. For me, Mat did get raped under treath but in the same time i did think it was fun to read about it. That makes me think about the moral and values of humans in generaly, and thats very interesting :) It all comes down to one thing though...how was the experience to the victim? Did he want it? Did he like it? Could he stopp it? No, Mat didnt like it, he didnt want it and he couldnt stop it. The whole situation forced him to stay. Not only the knife, but all things. Thats how i see on it and i wont change that...not for now anyway :) I might be wrong ofc, but i dont think so in my point of wiev.

Ye let´s get back to Egwene.

 

[benr]

Serenla, the one thing you can take from your experience here is that you will almost never convince anyone to change their minds on the forum.  While I don't necessarily agree with all of your positions, if this were a true debate and I had to vote on a winner you'd get the vote.  However, the winner of a debate and the actual truth are not necessarily the same things.

[Thor]

Somebody mentioned something about warming blankets.

 

I can say that this has nothing to do with sex at all.  In Chinese folklore, some (seriously/over?)-filial guy once warmed the bed for his parents during cold winter.  So no, not sex at all.

[Graendals favourite]

I suppose I'll have to find the relevant passages on that to get to the bottom of it. The problem is, aside from noticing them on the last reread, I have no idea where they are, and they will be just something mentioned in passing, so I will have to go through the Egwene povs in CoS, PoD, and Cot, and check it the WH epilogue didn't have anything. I thought the wording was suggestive, though remained vague, but I guess there's no helping it. Oh and I suppose she might have reminisced on it in KoD.

[Charlz Guybon]

I never found Tom and Jerry all that funny and the fact there is no real death in that doesn't lend to the reality of Murder. I did enjoy the die hard movie but not once did I laugh at one of the "bad guys" getting killed. I suppose you found the Saw movies amusing as well?

 

I've been a bit on the fence here not sure what to think but now I think I am sure that RJ did NOT want one his main characters being raped as something to LAUGH at. If Mat was Raped it isn't supposed to be funny.

 

With the example of Loony Toons, it barely counts since no one ever dies, there are no consquences thus the whole thing is just fake. Sure they want you to laugh and be amused by it but I just didn't find it funny.

 

As for Unreal Tournament I was too bored with it to find anything funny about that game.

What about a movie like Pulp Fiction. That movie was all about making acts of extreme violence humorous.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Consent?  I thought he didn't bother for the same reason you wouldn't RSVP when you were already at the party.  As for asking for sex, she came on to him the first time they met.  He already knew she was pursuing him.  Besides he had heard about the custom of pretties, wanting to have sex with someone isn't the same thing as going out of his way to be a kept man...

What makes you think it's a "party" from Mat's perspective?  She came on to him the first time they met, and he tried to avoid her from that point on, so why didn't he just fall for her if he wanted to have sex with her?  The fact that she had to force it is evidence for the idea that Mat didn't want it to happen.  Yes, consent.  As far as I'm concerned, sex without consent is rape.  Consent can be implied but I think in Mat's case the opposite is true - I think unwillingness is implied.  I don't see any evidence that consent is implied.

 

That I know they are going to do it but am somewhat surprised by it. It works for things that the person welcomes just as well as things the peson doesn't want.

          i.e.  Woman say this a lot in romance novels when their lover is doing something they like but are a little uncomfortable with and don't expect.  The follow up is do you want me to stop and the woman says no.  In this instance, the meaning is not that the action is unwanted, it's that it's unexpected.

Yes he is probably somewhat surprised.  Mat is not in love, Tylin is only mildly attractive to him, he thinks the whole thing is indecent, unnatural, and not possible.  She doesn't ask if he wants her to stop, but he tells her to.  "You can't do this to me" is definitely a denial of what is happening.  It implies that the speaker wants "this" to not happen or stop.  Of course Mat is surprised - he thought that he could avoid Tylin.  He suddenly realizes that he is stuck between his training to not hurt women, his duty to help find the Bowl, his promises to Elayne, and the Queen's power.  I don't see any explanation of Mat's thoughts and "you can't do this to me" that implies any kind of consent.  I think the simplest explanation is that Mat doesn't want to have sex with Tylin.

 

And to be fair, I have seen this used by children and criminals who are being punished for doing something wrong.  In these cases, they know the consequences of the crime, but thought they were above whatever rule it was that they broke.  This meaning, this only happens to other people, I am somehow above them and shouldn't have to live with the same consequences.  In this case, it would mean I thought I'd get out of dealing with this thing I don't want this to happen.

In Mat's case he has a right to not have sex with Tylin, whereas criminals do not have a right to not be punished.  The situations are very different because consent isn't required to send a criminal to jail or discipline your child.  It is required for sex.  You said it yourself: "I thought I'd get out of dealing with this thing I don't want this to happen" is exactly Mat's attitude that is expressed when he says "you can't do this to me".  That should have stopped Tylin.

 

IMO, "breathy and shrill" are indicative of surprise rather than outrage.  This, coupled with his belief that he should be the chaser, and what I know to be true of Mat (the list I had in my last post) all prompt me to take this scene as not being a rape.

I lost you here.  Mat is surprised so it's not rape?  Or is it not rape because he doesn't like being chased by a woman?  Your list doesn't help:

 

        fast - he admits to himself that he isn't sure if he is fast enough

        a capable fighter - see above

        strong - it all comes down to speed though, with a knife at his neck

        stubborn - see what it took to get him in bed when he didn't want to!

        smart - does he have a chance to outsmart anyone to get away?

        impatient - so he played hard to get?  Or, he was really avoiding it.

        impulsive - but he never has the impulse to sleep with Tylin

        a gambler - doesn't help

        has a temper - we see that, when he grabs Tylin

        dislikes nobles - all the more reason to not want sex with a Queen

        says what he wants to regardless of consequences - no way.  Mat is cheeky but only when he thinks he can get away with it

        has faced death on numerous occasions - so he realizes he is in a deadly situation, and does what Tylin says.

        has courage to the point of stupidity - no he doesn't.  he always avoids risks, but his fate keeps presenting him with risky situations

        has taken risk after risk - only because he has been forced to

        has a policy of keeping promises - such as staying in the Palace

 

Mat is faced with the decision to fight Tylin and escape, or have sex with her.  If he chooses the first, either he will hurt Tylin, or she will kill him.  Attacking (and at worst killing) the queen of Ebou Dar would certianly lead to his own death unless he left the city.  He has to risk death, attack (and maybe kill) a woman, abandon his promises, his duty, and his fate, and become a fugitive in order to avoid having sex with Tylin.  How does that imply that he consents to sex with her?  I don't see it.

[Shard]

You found pulp fiction humerous? I found the majority of that movie dark and disturbing. I think the only "funny" part was where Travolta was telling Jackson that the big mac in France was a "royale with cheese".

[Serenla]

Serenla, the one thing you can take from your experience here is that you will almost never convince anyone to change their minds on the forum.  While I don't necessarily agree with all of your positions, if this were a true debate and I had to vote on a winner you'd get the vote.  However, the winner of a debate and the actual truth are not necessarily the same things.

I never really had any real expectations of winning or convincing anyone, I just thought trying would be an interesting challenge and it was/is.  I was just glad that people responded to my posts.  ;D  Also I will acknowledge that you did not agree with everything I posted, and in that light, thank you greatfully for a much needed compliment.  (I just started a new job, having to start over at a new job is certainly a kick in the ego.)

 

To <(^ -^)>

 

I'll keep trying to convince you, if you want, although I'm pretty sure we are at an impass.  I like to attempt things that are unlikely...  ;D 

 

But it's been a rough day so, I'll work on it tomorow...

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I'll keep trying to convince you, if you want, although I'm pretty sure we are at an impass.  I like to attempt things that are unlikely...  Grin

 

But it's been a rough day so, I'll work on it tomorow...

Hey, don't be down!  Be happy: there's no better time than now to enjoy yourself!  Believe me, you will never "win" on the internet - these discussions go in circles by nature.  I doubt I can convince you that Mat was raped, and you probably can't convince me that he wasn't, but it can't hurt to discuss.  Also, I think you are a fantastic person.

 

We don't need to have such a big argument.  Most of what we're saying is opinion.  I do insist of a couple of things as fact, though:

Mat did not give consent to Tylin.

When Mat said "you can't do this to me" he was talking to Tylin about her recent behavior, which includes her sexual advances.

 

It's often helpful to try to understand the opposing position, so I will summarize what I think you are saying, and you can let me know if I'm wrong and how:

1)You don't think Mat was raped because you think RJ wouldn't write something that is both funny and involves such a serious act.

2)You also don't think Mat was raped because he never objects to Tylin's advances.  His objections, in your opinion, are directed only at Tylin's methods, and do not apply to the sex itself.

3)Another reason you seem to have, is that Mat did not react to being raped the way rape victims typically do: "If Mat isn't traumatized then he wasn't raped."

4)You also seem to think that if Mat didn't want to be in that situation he could have avoided it by disarming Tylin

 

Here are my short responses to those 4 points:

1)That is merely an assumption, an opinion.

2)Again, it is an opinion, but I find it hard to swallow that Mat would object to everything Tylin was doing, but not mind about the sex.  He didn't want anything to do with her, including the sex.  It's my opinion that he makes that very clear.

3)I can't accept that, because everyone is different.  Mat doesn't have PTSD from all of the battles he has lived (hundreds of lives worth), so why should a little forced sex scar him?  I can't imagine being raped is much worse than remembering your own death, and the deaths of your friends, over and over again in various circumstances.  For that matter, having the Devil walk your dreams is probably as traumatizing.  Mat lives in a different world and his reaction doesn't have to be typical.

4)Mat denies this in his own thoughts.  He doesn't know if he is fast enough to take on Tylin.  Yes he is a gambler, but only when it's kill or be killed.  Not when it's kill or be raped.

 

Looking back, I found this quote of yours:

And "I don't have time" is hardly a refusal.  Did he really, given his view of nobles, his experience with nobles, think that a queen is overly concerned about whether he is busy?  Mat is a master of making up excuses, given all the time that he has had since the moment he met her, he couldn't think of one thing to tell Tylin that would get her off is back?

First, "I don't have time" is a perfectly acceptable refusal, which Tylin ignored.  Mat isn't such a master of excuses that he avoided punishment at home very often - it seems to me like he got caught more often than he got away with pranks.  On a larger level, it is nonsense to me, the idea that Mat deliberately thought of excuses that he knew Tylin would ignore.

 

I also found this:

No Mat's method of chasing is offering presents and money to girls, usually ones that need money.  Although with Tuon, he was rather pesky, he came into her wagon thing without her permission, bought her presents, would only allow her out of the dumb thing if he was with her.  She was a prisoner.  No he didn't rape her, but he was chasing her as actively as Tylin pursued him.

Okay, I like the comparison of Mat and Tuon to Tylin and Mat.  You make a good point that Mat chases Tuon in a similar way to how Tylin chased him.  The differences make a bigger statement though: Mat did not have sex with Tuon.  If he went in to her wagon, got her alone, locked them in there together, pulled a knife, and ignored her when she realized that he wanted to have sex and said "you can't do this to me", then it would be rape.  Or, do you think that Tuon would have to also be terribly scarred as proof that she didn't want it to happen?

 

She was obviously lying about having a husband, and she knew that I didn't care about how busy she was, so when she told me she was married and didn't have time for sex, I knew she was asking to be taken.  The knife was just to spice things up - she could have taken it once I took it away from her throat and stabbed the headboard.

I feel like you would agree with the man in that hypothetical quote.

 

You found pulp fiction humerous? I found the majority of that movie dark and disturbing. I think the only "funny" part was where Travolta was telling Jackson that the big mac in France was a "royale with cheese".

Pulp Fiction is a dark comedy.  I guess it's possible that you just don't get dark humor, or you might be a total prude.  You didn't laugh a little bit when Travolta says "Aww man, I just shot Marvin in the face"?  How about when "the Wolf" comes by to help clean up the gore?  That entire scene is funny!  Here is what wikipedia says about dark comedy:

The purpose of black comedy is to make light of serious and often taboo subject matter, and some comedians use it as a tool for exploring important issues, thus provoking discomfort and serious thought, as well as amusement, in their audience. Popular themes of the genre include rape, murder...

...black comedy usually includes an element of irony, or even fatalism

Of course, RJ would never write about something uncomfortable in order to provoke thought about our societies problems.  He wouldn't put Mat in a hilariously ironic situation to draw attention to the unfair way women are often treated in real life.  If something that RJ wrote is funny, then it must be 100% wholesome and uncontroversial.[/sarcasm]

 

Look at Avi's sexual problem.  She is running from Rand, because she has seen her future and knows she will love him eventually.  Rand and Avi's scenes are hilariously awkward, and there is no harm in laughing even though Avi's emotions are really being toyed with by RJ.  Even the scene where Rand walks in on her naked in his bath is funny, despite the fact that it causes Avi to nearly kill herself running from him.  Freezing to death is nearly as bad as (or worse than, depending on your attitude) rape, and neither are funny.  However, the scene which put Avi's life in danger is funny, and RJ obviously intended it that way.  The scenario that causes Mat to be raped is also funny.  I don't think it would be funny if Mat was traumatized like a typical rape victim.  I don't think it would be funny if Avi actually froze to death.

 

 

One last thought about the rape:

If Tylin didn't understand that Mat didn't want to have sex, then how can you explain this series of factual events?

 

1) Mat realizes that Tylin intends to have her way with him

2) Mat says to Tylin "you can't do this to me"

3) Tylin responds "watch and learn"

4) They have sex.

 

Tylin understands that "this" means sex, otherwise she wouldn't have responded telling Mat to "watch".  What does Tylin want Mat to watch?  The events that are about to happen.  What event is about to happen, that both Mat and Tylin are aware of?  Sex between the two.  Mat isn't talking about how Tylin is about to strip him with a knife because he doesn't know she is about to do that.  The one thing Mat knows that Tylin is trying to do is have sex.  He realizes it immediately before he says "you can't do this", as if that realization triggered the statement.  Tylin has a lot in mind for Mat, but it all revolves around the sex.  There is no reason for her to think that Mat is referring to the humiliating foreplay and NOT the impending sex.  He might be talking about both, but the sex is vital.

 

 

Gahhh! these posts become so damn long I wonder if anyone takes the time to read them.

[benr]

 

 

Gahhh! these posts become so damn long I wonder if anyone takes the time to read them.

 

Well, not so much, as many of us have the attention span of a gnat.

[Shard]

Well to start <(^-^)>  I am reading your entire post, unlike some I don't have the attention span of a gnat lol.

 

I'll try not to get too off topic here with Pulp fiction but quickly:

 

1) I get what Dark comedy and humor is

2) I enjoyed Pulp Fiction because it made me think, not because of comedic value.

3) I'm also not a prude but that's really off topic.

4) Quentin Terrantino's sense of humor is definatly NOT the same.

 

This topic of Mat and Tylin has certainly not been boring I'll grant you guys that for certain. I have to disagree on the can Mat disarm Tylin or not. He was able to fight Melihinddra a deadly trained Aiel Spearsister who was armed with a knife and Mat had no weapons at the time. I think if he truly didn't want to sleep with Tylin he could have disarmed her.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I have to disagree on the can Mat disarm Tylin or not. He was able to fight Melihinddra a deadly trained Aiel Spearsister who was armed with a knife and Mat had no weapons at the time. I think if he truly didn't want to sleep with Tylin he could have disarmed her.

 

From aCoS, chapter 29:

He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands. “What are you going to do?” Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question.

Mat doesn't know if he's fast enough.  He killed the darkfriend Aiel, but that was instinct and luck.  Tylin is not murdering Mat, so he is not fighting for his life and his deadly instincts are not sharpened.  He doesn't want to kill her because his life isn't at stake, just his sexual freedom.  Hell, he didn't even want to kill the Aiel girl, really.

 

Once Tylin puts the knife away Mat could probably take her on safely.  We don't know when she put the knife away, though.  She might have put it away, and she might have said "I know you don't want to have sex but please do it for me?" and Mat might have said "fine".  I wouldn't count on it though.

[Casco]

And the Ebu Dar woman was famous/skilled for using knifes to... i wouldent trust my speed with a woman like that. She didnt have anything to be afraid for...it was easy to just say "he abused me" and everybody would belive her, even the two river girls (they didnt trust him with females at this point).

The funny thing is that even her son think it is "to mutch" after a while and he was brought up in that town.

[Serenla]

Hey, don't be down!  Be happy: there's no better time than now to enjoy yourself!  Believe me, you will never "win" on the internet - these discussions go in circles by nature.  I doubt I can convince you that Mat was raped, and you probably can't convince me that he wasn't, but it can't hurt to discuss.  Also, I think you are a fantastic person.

 

I'm trying to stay positive, but my life took an unexpected turn, so I have to pout... Went to school for a BS in Chemisty and now the only job I can find is at a grocery store.  I know that with the economy the way it is, a job should make me happy, but every time I think of all the student loans I owe, I cringe...

And thank you kindly and sincerly for the compliment.  I think you're pretty fantastic too!

 

We don't need to have such a big argument.  Most of what we're saying is opinion.  I do insist of a couple of things as fact, though:

Mat did not give consent to Tylin.

When Mat said "you can't do this to me" he was talking to Tylin about her recent behavior, which includes her sexual advances.

I can agree that:

Mat never verbally consented on screen.

In the sentence "you can't do this to me,"  this refers to Tylin's sexual aggression and the actual sex.

 

However:

Although I admitedly lack first hand experience, I don't think that the standard way people have sex is "Hey do you want to have sex"  "Oh okay".  Tylin never asked Mat if he wanted to, so where it would make sense to say "no" were he disinclined, the "yes" would have made less sense.

        and

Okay time to argue semantics... The sentence "You can't do this to me" literally means "Tylin is not able to come on to Mat and have sex with him."  Can we agree on that?  Assuming that we do, then we are also in agreement that when taken literally this is an untrue statement, right?  Can we also agree that when Mat said it, he was aware that it was an untrue statement?

    Now if we can agree that it was not meant to be taken literally, then it is time to determine what Mat meant by the statement.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that you understand it as "I don't want you to do this to me."  I believe that within certain context (it's being yelled in an indignant manner or wailed rather pathetically) then that is what the speaker would intend.  Mat uses it while he is mumbling, breathy and squeaky.  In this particular context, I interpret it as meaning "I am surprised or shocked that you are really doing this."  I do not see any indication that he does not want to have sex, just that he's shocked that a woman is initiating it.  Now I don't expect you to necesarily agree with my interpretation in this instance, but can you see how, in certain contexts it could be taken that way?

 

It's often helpful to try to understand the opposing position,

I agree 100%!!!!!    :D :D :D

 

Please forgive me for moving your post around, I am trying to address your concerns with my arguments at the same time I discuss the major points. 

so I will summarize what I think you are saying, and you can let me know if I'm wrong and how:  Here are my short responses to those 4 points:

1)You don't think Mat was raped because you think RJ wouldn't write something that is both funny and involves such a serious act.

1)That is merely an assumption, an opinion.

I think you are oversimplifying it.  RJ is very good at making us laugh at things that many writers would not be able to pull off.  But he is also very good at making the scenes in which he does so feel disturbing.  This scene just felt plain funny to me.  (Mat trying to hide behind Olver and thinking of him as a "little lout".  Mat's incredulousness, gaping, blushing.)  I have absolute faith that RJ used the words he wanted to, and there were words that he could have picked that would have meant the same thing and changed the overall mood of the scene, RJ chose not to use those words.  To me that means that RJ wanted us to laugh at this, without feeling bad while we were doing it.  I think that if this was in fact intended to be a rape scene, then RJ was fully capable of making me laugh at it AND feel bad about that laughter.  And I believe that if he wanted us to laugh about something so serious, he would also want us to feel bad.  This can be taken as purely conjecture on my part, but I guess that RJ and the WOT has been part of my life for long enough that I feel that I know him on some level.  I doubt that I'm the only one who feels this way...  From what we know about RJ from interviews, his blog, his families involvement when he got sick, and from his writing, what type of man did he seem to be to you?  To me he seemed to convey a great sense of humor, but also a man of strong moral beliefs...  So whereas I hope no one would think me presumptious enough to attempt to speak for him, I do feel that it is reasonable for me to feel that there is enough information available to make a guess as to his intentions. 

 

2)You also don't think Mat was raped because he never objects to Tylin's advances.  His objections, in your opinion, are directed only at Tylin's methods, and do not apply to the sex itself.  2)Again, it is an opinion, but I find it hard to swallow that Mat would object to everything Tylin was doing, but not mind about the sex.  He didn't want anything to do with her, including the sex.  It's my opinion that he makes that very clear.

Yes, pretty much.  His objections are to her chasing him at all.  He thinks that he should chase her.  If you don't want to have sex with someone, why would you think that you are supposed to chase them?  That would be a waste of energy.  What would you do if you caught someone that you didn't want to catch?  Toss 'em back?  Does Mat think women are fish? 

When Mat meets Tylin he stares at her chest, right up until she comes on to him.  I take his inability to stop staring at her chest as attraction.  (I suppose I could be wrong, but it seems like a reasonable assumption to me.  If it's not attraction, someone should call Mat up and tell him that that's how many women take it...)  As soon as she comes on to him, he starts avoiding her.  So before she hits on him, she is fair game and afterwards, she's a cuckoo.  He's uncomfortable with her being agressive but I don't think that changes his intitial attraction to her.

Also he never came out and said, "Tylin I do not want to have sex with you."  As annoyed as he is with her, I think he would have blurted it out if that's what he thought.  (He blurted out to the Sea Folk Windfinder to the Mistress of the Ships, that he'd tie her to the horse like a packsaddle, because he was annoyed.  She's not a queen but she's up there in power and Mat is fully aware of this. But he's impatient and they have annoyed him.)  Mat blurts out what he is thinking when he's irritated, he has thoughout the entire series, why would this instance be different?  Please don't bring up the knife, he could have done so when he was blurting that he didn't have time.  Before the knife came into play. 

 

3)Another reason you seem to have, is that Mat did not react to being raped the way rape victims typically do: "If Mat isn't traumatized then he wasn't raped."

3)I can't accept that, because everyone is different.  Mat doesn't have PTSD from all of the battles he has lived (hundreds of lives worth), so why should a little forced sex scar him?  I can't imagine being raped is much worse than remembering your own death, and the deaths of your friends, over and over again in various circumstances.  For that matter, having the Devil walk your dreams is probably as traumatizing.  Mat lives in a different world and his reaction doesn't have to be typical.

This could be me arguing with my emotions, but I have seen what rape does to people. I have a hard time believing that something that makes many people throw away their entire lives, could be shugged off by anyone.

Also Mat shows signs of discomfort, but it seems to be more about people knowing than her doing it again.  At one point he thinks that if they don't leave Ebou Dar then everyone was going to know.  Not that she would force herself on him again.  It seems to me that he is embarrassed about Tylin taking what he sees as the man's role, not the actual act.  I don't think Mat thinks raping is a man's role, so I think it's who initiates it that matters to him. 

 

4)You also seem to think that if Mat didn't want to be in that situation he could have avoided it by disarming Tylin  4)Mat denies this in his own thoughts.  He doesn't know if he is fast enough to take on Tylin.  Yes he is a gambler, but only when it's kill or be killed.  Not when it's kill or be raped.

Yes, he could have grabbed her knife as soon as it was away fom his throat, or in the bedpost.  Mat is around 20 at this point and a hell of a fighter.  Tylin is a middle aged queen.  Mat knows he can get the knife from her, just not if it's already at his throat, it stands to reason, that if he wanted to he could have taken it when it was away from his throat.  Even if she's good with a knife, Mat is better.  It seems odd to me that he would stick around and let her finish the act if he didn't want to be there.  If someone put a gun to my head I'd do as they said, the second that gun wasn't at my head, I'd try to get it, if at all possible.  To avoid rape, I might just make them shoot me... 

Another point, I don't think that it even had to get to this point if Mat was that determined to not sleep with her.  After Tylin makes her intention to sleep with Mat clear, there are two days, I believe.  Master strategist Matrim Cauthon can plan how to fight battles better than Aiel clan chiefs in minutes, but cannot come up with a better plan to avoid a "crazy" queen who has "taken leave of her senses" in days, than to use Olver as a shield?  He spends the time to think about her and what she wanted and how to avoid it, but the plan he comes up with is ridiculous.  Olver was no real protection from the queen.  How did Mat manage to miscalculate by so much, when we have seen what he is capable of?  I know that a person would not be obligated to go to extreme measures to avoid a rape, but if someone was unwelcomely and aggressively persuing them, would they take every advantage that they had available?  I think that if Mat didn't have any desire at all to be caught by Tylin he would have been smart enough to find a better way to avoid her than trying to hide behind Olver.  (I suppose it could have been desperation, but Mat has come up with better plans than that one in life threatening situation before.)

 

First, "I don't have time" is a perfectly acceptable refusal, which Tylin ignored.  Mat isn't such a master of excuses that he avoided punishment at home very often - it seems to me like he got caught more often than he got away with pranks.  On a larger level, it is nonsense to me, the idea that Mat deliberately thought of excuses that he knew Tylin would ignore.

My dad and my sister get annoyed with me because I call them at work and want to talk.  They say I don't have time to talk right now.  Does that mean they don't want to talk to me?  That's pretty messed up.  I think it means they don't have time.

 

Okay, I like the comparison of Mat and Tuon to Tylin and Mat.  You make a good point that Mat chases Tuon in a similar way to how Tylin chased him.  The differences make a bigger statement though: Mat did not have sex with Tuon.  If he went in to her wagon, got her alone, locked them in there together, pulled a knife, and ignored her when she realized that he wanted to have sex and said "you can't do this to me", then it would be rape.  Or, do you think that Tuon would have to also be terribly scarred as proof that she didn't want it to happen?

Tuon wouldn't have let Mat get her alone.  My proof being that he couldn't get her alone.  And if Mat was dumb enough to pull a knife on Tuon, she'd have kicked his butt, or given it her best shot.  Proof being when he grabbed her when she said he couldn't leave the palace.  Noal had to help Mat subdue her...

 

She was obviously lying about having a husband, and she knew that I didn't care about how busy she was, so when she told me she was married and didn't have time for sex, I knew she was asking to be taken.  The knife was just to spice things up - she could have taken it once I took it away from her throat and stabbed the headboard.

I feel like you would agree with the man in that hypothetical quote.

Aw come on give me a little more credit.  How can anyone decide what happened without a lot more information?

 

 

Never saw Pulp Fiction, my sister said it would upset me...

 

Rand and Avi...  Wasn't her problem with Traveling connected to her shame of having run from Rand when her heart's desire was to be caught?  And the scene to me was more desperate sad/happy scene.  Is this gonna be our next dicussion?  :o

 

One last thought about the rape:

If Tylin didn't understand that Mat didn't want to have sex, then how can you explain this series of factual events?

 

1) Mat realizes that Tylin intends to have her way with him

2) Mat says to Tylin "you can't do this to me"

3) Tylin responds "watch and learn"

4) They have sex.

 

Tylin understands that "this" means sex, otherwise she wouldn't have responded telling Mat to "watch".  What does Tylin want Mat to watch?  The events that are about to happen.  What event is about to happen, that both Mat and Tylin are aware of?  Sex between the two.  Mat isn't talking about how Tylin is about to strip him with a knife because he doesn't know she is about to do that.  The one thing Mat knows that Tylin is trying to do is have sex.  He realizes it immediately before he says "you can't do this", as if that realization triggered the statement.  Tylin has a lot in mind for Mat, but it all revolves around the sex.  There is no reason for her to think that Mat is referring to the humiliating foreplay and NOT the impending sex.  He might be talking about both, but the sex is vital.

Alleged!!!!!    ;D

Let's revist this after you have had a chance to read the stuff above because our lack of agreement revolves entirely around the interpretation of 2...

 

Gahhh! these posts become so damn long I wonder if anyone takes the time to read them.

I spent like three hours on this post, somebody had better at least pretend they read the bloody thing!!!  ;)

 

But seriously, I respond to threads that I have read completely.  If I don't read everyone's posts, I don't think it's fair to weigh in.  But that's just me...

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I wonder how much more I will have to learn before I know how to convince people of my point of view, before I feel like i've spent a couple of weeks on a merry-go-round?

No no no no no, you're supposed to wear the other side down through attrition. When they can no longer be bothered to defend their absurd arguments, you've won!

 

Gahhh! these posts become so damn long I wonder if anyone takes the time to read them.

Well, not so much, as many of us have the attention span of a gnat.

Well, I have an attention span of more than a oh look, that dog's got a puffy tail!

[Serenla]

I wonder how much more I will have to learn before I know how to convince people of my point of view, before I feel like i've spent a couple of weeks on a merry-go-round?

No no no no no, you're supposed to wear the other side down through attrition. When they can no longer be bothered to defend their absurd arguments, you've won!

:o Oh my, that sounds like what I do to my family...  Now the question is, did you just revive their interest by saying they lose if they give up?  I'd better go get some dramamine...  ;)

Gahhh! these posts become so damn long I wonder if anyone takes the time to read them.

Well, not so much, as many of us have the attention span of a gnat.

Well, I have an attention span of more than a oh look, that dog's got a puffy tail!

Rolling on the floor laughing...

[Luckers]

Sorry its so late...

 

Quote from: Luckers

I'm sorry Serenla--Mat makes clear that the situation makes him deeply uncomfortable. We see him directly try to avoid it. We see her use her authority to stop him, we see her ignore his attempts to stop it.

 

Mat tells her after the fact that "[He's] the one who's supposed to do the chasing".  Feeling this way, yes he was uncomfortable with the relationship.  Being uncomfortable with a relationship does not mean that it is rape.  (I know a guy who was deepy ashamed and disguisted by the fact that he chose to have a physical relationship with a partner that his friends found unattractive, but she did not rape him.) 

 

Ok, that's one of the comments about the issue. More on it in a second. First, though, what about the many others--what about him attempting to avoid her, and being stopped because she ordered her servants to make sure it didn't happen. What about his anxiousness about the situation.

 

But, alright, he was uncomfortable about not being the one doing the chasing. Fine. He was uncomfortable. Deeply uncomfortable. Because of that he tried to stop her. She continued. He tried again. She used a knife. She used her servants. He was still uncomfortable. He even told someone--she laughed at him. "That was... very bad... of Tylin."

 

Oh, and 'he wasn't the one doing the chasing...?' When did Mat use knives in his 'chasing'. When did he make the help corner his victim. Like a predator. Victim. See what i did there?

 

I'm sorry--where in that was a point in your favour?

 

When she was on his lap, "that someone might walk in", "respect for her crown" and "betrothal to a girl back home".  The first is something anyone would say if they were getting ready to have sex.  The second is questionable coming from Mat, he has a tendency to leer at women, queens included, which by now Tylin has noticed and probably taken as interest.  And respect for her crown is flattery not a refusal.  The third is a straight out lie and given Mat's reputation, he can't honestly believe that anyone would take that seriously.  Yes he called Thom and Juilin into the room, but that could mean that he needs to talk to them, or he could be putting her off for the fun of it.  It is not a refusal.

 

The first is not something you say when you are ready to have sex. At least its not something i'd say. i don't know what you're into. The second is squirming. Mat is bound by male pride. He doesn't want to admit that he doesn't want to sleep with her--because for men that is a strike against their verility and pride. A foolish thing, but nonetheless violating it constitues assault.

 

The third should prove it to you--he was so desperate he lied. It was the only recourse open to him. saying he didn't want sex would be socially unacceptable, inventing a girlfriend as a reason to avoid it... I've seen it. I've used it.

 

Simply wanting to be chaste doesn't work for guys. Sorry.

 

Yes, he tried to stay away from her, by sneaking around and coming in late, but she can't know if he's intentionally avoiding her or if he is just busy.  As for the food thing, he could get food anywhere in the city anytime he wanted to, and they both knew it.  From Tylin's point of view, he was playing hard to get and Mat has done enough chasing to know this.

 

Again, Mat has never done that sort of chasing. Ever. And Tylin knew he was specifically avoiding her. Re-read the books, his aversion is commented on many times--usually as a joke. Something which offends me even more than Mat's situation. Had it been a woman enduring what Mat endured there would have been hell--instead Elayne laughed.

 

Yes, he tried to stay away from her, by sneaking around and coming in late, but she can't know if he's intentionally avoiding her or if he is just busy.  As for the food thing, he could get food anywhere in the city anytime he wanted to, and they both knew it.  From Tylin's point of view, he was playing hard to get and Mat has done enough chasing to know this.

 

To Tylin.... Yes, many rapists believe their victim was asking for it.

 

He could have moved back to the inn, he didn't have to leave the city.  Yes, that would have broken his agreement with the girls, but he didn't really seem to think they'd stay with it anyway so moving back to the inn wasn't that big of a loss.

 

It is directly stated several times how completely Mat holds to his word. So no, sorry, he could not have moved back to the Inn.

 

Giving in to peer pressure happens all the time.  It's a choice to give in to that pressure.  If it wasn't a choice, then most sexually active teenagers and many adults are being raped.  Drinking wouldn't be a choice and in many environments neither would drug use. 

 

I would agree that many predators out there utilize a persons beliefs to control and use them. Why that lessens that Tylin used Mat's social bindings to corner him, i don't know. I hold the same contempt for boys who use the 'loosing virginity' thing on girls in the current age--but at least those girls have social options to avoid doing what they don't want. Mat did not.

 

To admit why he was uncomfortable was to deny the very nature of being a man. A man should want to sleep with a sexually attractive woman. That he did not want to was not something he had the tools to deal with. Girls do, they have the whole 'need to be chaste' thing. Mat had nothing of the sort.

 

The knives... As soon as Tylin stabbed the knives into the bedpost, any physical threat to Mat was removed.  We know what Mat is capable of and we know that he could have had both knives before almost anyone else, certainly before Tylin.

As for being a queen, in the same book within days of this, Mat tells the Windfinder to the Mistress of the Ships that he's going to tie her to a packhorse.  Why would a queen intimidate him anymore than her?

 

So, if a man wanted to have sex with you, and shot the bedpost, you'd consider the threat over?

 

Of course Mat could have beaten Tylin in a fight, but your forgetting his high jinks about hurting women. This was not a game between equals, Mat has preconceptions about women which bind him. Tylin knew that, she used it.

 

And Tylin being a queen did not intimidate Mat. Tylin used her position as queen to enable her control of Mat. Tylin being a woman--and the type of woman she was--intimidated Mat. Which is part of the problem.

 

don't remember seeing any discussion of Morgase and Valda, but it was a very similar situation. Morgase has spent 20 years of her life defending Andor and felt she had no choice other than to sleep with him to get an army to save her country.  The safety of her country was an even bigger threat to her than the loss of her life.  I still don't think that she was raped because she agreed to it. 

 

She tried to KILL herself because of that. Galad killed Valda because of it. How you could thing that would be a point in your favour....

 

But, ok, your point--she agreed--because she was socially required to. Becuase she was within his power. Because what she needed to do relied on him, and that was the price he set.

 

You are correct. It is a very similar situation.  Mat was socially required to be up for sex. He was within Tylin's power, and he needed--for seperate and important reasons--to remain in the Tarasin palace.

 

Futile efforts no, but Mat is not the type to accept an unwanted fate without a fight.

 

That's bull. Mat has accepted many unwanted fates because it is nessasary. That's actually the complete theme of his character.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

Just a note, by the time his hip was healed enough that he could move around there was no chance of going to an inn. They were booked solid with Seanchan. He couldn't have gotten a room in the Wandering Woman if he tried, too. That became a place for Seanchan officers. He couldn't have left the city because there was a captured Aes Sedai he didn't want to leave behind, since he believed she helped him in an earlier book. He thought he owed her and that kept him in the palace.

[Shard]

First off men can refuse sex if they want to, there is no stigma against that.

 

I think Morgase agreed to it more to avoid physical damage to herself. This may be what Mat does as well. Either way with Mat it's a messed up situation.

[benr]

That was one of Morgase's reasons.  However, much of what she did was for Andor and Elayne.

[Luckers]

First off men can refuse sex if they want to, there is no stigma against that.

 

Yeah, if the girl is fat or ugly.

 

I don't say that to be offensive--i say it to point out a reality. Guys are expected to want sex from women who are hot. There is a whole spectrum of reasons beyond those two superficial ones i listed in which a guy might not want to have sex, but the only reasons recognized are those two.

 

And we are going beyond that--we are not just talking about a guy not wanting to do 'a superhot woman' we are talking about a guy resisting 'a superhot woman'.

 

You know what the current day reaction would be? It would be something along the lines of "You fag!" Trust me, thats more or less what i got. Accurate, but nonetheless offensive.

 

No stigma? Don't be stupid. Men are reinforced with the idea that conquering the female sex is a defining aspect of their manhood--that may be sexist, but its real, and its a double-edged sword.

 

Male rape and sexual abuse is the least reported crime. It's below petty theft--men are more willing to say their watch was stolen than to admit that they were sexually abused. Thats because men are supposed to own sex. Men letting sex be used as a weapon against them is shameful. Which is exactly what we see with Mat.

 

[Shard]

Well I wasn't raised that way Luckers, I didn't think my ultimate goal in high school was to loose my virginity and no it has NOTHING to do with religon. I wasn't refering to fat or ugly, but then Beauty is also in the eye of the beholder anyways.

 

I guess what it comes down to is Mat going with the sex, as to avoid physical damage of trying to resist. It's still bad of Tylin to do this whether you call it Rape or not.

[Casco]

Well I wasn't raised that way Luckers, I didn't think my ultimate goal in high school was to loose my virginity and no it has NOTHING to do with religon. I wasn't refering to fat or ugly, but then Beauty is also in the eye of the beholder anyways.

 

I guess what it comes down to is Mat going with the sex, as to avoid physical damage of trying to resist. It's still bad of Tylin to do this whether you call it Rape or not.

There was more to it than just resist physical damage from Tylin. If he did anything agaist her will, there would be more who suffered from it. The superior girl trio (Ny, Avi and Birgitte) would have hated him (they wouldnt have belived his story), and he needed the trust from them to protect them. He did gave his word to Rand, and he like at least NY and Birgitte.

We have Tylins son...and all the city. What would they have done? Not only to him but all the friends.

All in all, Tylin did have the whole situation in her hand, and she did knew it. She knew that Mat couldnt do anything, he was trapped. with Tylin as a enemy, the whole plan with the bowl of the winds would have failed, and the world would have starved. He might risk getting killed, all his friends would think he was a woman abuser and would be hated for it, he would have been forced to brake his word to rand...the list can go on forever.

[Eleint]

I see a lot of conversation of inessentials.  I just have a few issues/points to make:

 

1) Tylin's behavior with Mat was a power dynamic.  Sure, there was sex involved, but her own words when he was leaving spoke of it: the fox remembers he's a fox, or whatever the phrase was.  The sexual relationship was based on Tylin having a stronger power dynamic than Mat, and that was part of what got her off.  She had the 'fox' under her thumb.  Rape is based on a strong power dynamic.  So are certain other things, but this is a strong indicator in and of itself.

 

2) The only way for Mat to resist would be to either break oaths he swore (the girls, then his men, and so on), which is a big thing in the WoT, or to use real violence on a woman, a thing he also swore an oath not to do and is something he's psychologically against.

 

I liken this situation more to certain issues that have cropped up in the various world militaries, where a superior officer who has the person's life in their hands hits on an inferior, and that person allows it because of various reasons -- career or in war zones fear that they'll be put somewhere dangerous.  They never actually say no because of the strong power difference -- it'd be foolhardy to their mind.  This has been said to be rape as well as bad for the normal other reasons.  In a similar manner, Tylin is of the superior 'rank', and can do much the same for Mat, put him through hell or even have him killed.

 

By everything I know of, at least in real life, it's a strong parallel and would be considered rape, at least where I work.

[Gentled Ben]

You found pulp fiction humerous? I found the majority of that movie dark and disturbing. I think the only "funny" part was where Travolta was telling Jackson that the big mac in France was a "royale with cheese".

I LMAO at that movie! I laughed so hard that I almost wet myself. "Say what one more...time." Then the dude says "What?" and he kneecaps him. ROFL. I'm serious--it is sick and wrong perhaps, but I found it hysterically funny. Then Marcellis Wallace, after getting raped with that gag ball in his mouth (I wonder if he said, "You can't do this to me" first--that might explain the ball) telling Zeke that he's about to get medieval on his ass: "I ain't finished with you by a damn sight, Hillbilly Boy." So many great scenes that made me laugh with such a rich, gut-busting howl, because for some reason, the worse it is, the funnier it is. I understand that it was a dark and disturbing film, Shard, and I would never describe it as a comedy, yet nevertheless, I would tell anyone that it is funny as hell, because it was. Much funnier than this endless, circular argument about rape, btw.  :-\