Did Verin Lie?

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I have a whole "hidden ajah" theory about why Verin was so hot to help Rand.  That would explain why she convinced herself that Moraine sent her.

I thought the idea of a "Purple Ajah" was dead and buried...

www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html

Second Foundation Ajah Theory (aka Purple Ajah Theory)

Theory: Verin is a member of a secret society whose members preserve ancient knowledge for humanity's need at the Last Battle. The existence of the BA shows that it is possible for a secret group to exist in the Tower-- if there is a group dedicated to evil, why not a group dedicated to good?

Problem: There have always been rumors of the BA. Nothing can be kept secret for centuries in a place with so many people in it, and so much scheming as the White Tower. And yet, we've never heard any hint of this secret group.

I'd be amazed if a "secret Ajah" suddenly rocks up at TG.

[D24g0n]

I don't believe they have to be true for anyone else than Verin. But they do have to be true in Verin's view. You missed half the thing that Verin said. She said "Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar. She thought you might need me.". Moiraine never said that.

Moiraine never sent Verin anywhere. Verin is a smart woman, she comprehends what has been said (and what wasn't). Verin knows that Moiraine never sent her anywhere. Verin went anyway. Verin lied.

 

Smart enough to, say, do what every other AS does and twist what others say/do to their advantage?  The second part of that quote, "She thought you might need me," also requires very little to no actual "need" on Moiraine's part.  Moiraine had only to say or even do something that demonstrated/indicated a need that Ingtar's party had.  That statement does not even have to be referring to that time period.  She could have told Verin that she was needed with the group at any point in time, and that statement would be true.

 

There are so many ways to interpret and manipulate what she said, that it is improbable that a character built up the way Verin is would make an easily detectable lie.

[Mr Ares]

How you work so hard to convince yourselves that Verin "convinced herself" that Moiraine sent her, so she could lie. That's the same as lying, anyways. Verin doesn't need to convince herself of anything; she has her own agenda and everything that she does is to that end. She is not bound by the first oath.

Coming up with theories must be so much easier when you're willing to ignore evidence. She is bound. That is what the evidence says. And if she convinced herself, it is not a lie. She believed it.

 

But if we say, for the sake of argument, that it was a lie, then what? Why is this the only time she lies? Why is she so blatant, when other instances show her being very careful in what she says, every word being true, but still being misleading? Explain her Agelessness. When did she free herself? Why? What, if anything, was her new Oath?Saying "IT'S A LIE!" is not helpful, it just raises more questions than it answers. It overcomplicates things. Having an agenda I will not disagree with, but that is not an indicator of being free of the First Oath. What evidence suggests she is free? Not "Moiraine sent me". So what does? Why should we accept that answer?

[Gentled Ben]

Verin knows that Moiraine never sent her anywhere.

 

We're still waiting for you to provide quotes to support this, Alghar Khan. You keep saying it; prove it with the text.

[Alghar Khan]

Verin knows that Moiraine never sent her anywhere.

 

We're still waiting for you to provide quotes to support this, Alghar Khan. You keep saying it; prove it with the text.

I don't know why you keep bringing that up. You've got no thoughts of Verin's that says anything to support you. You should prove your ideas with the text. Moiraine claims she didn't send her. Verin claims Moiraine sent her, because they "might need her". You should prove that Verin misunderstood Moiraine.

[Kaznen]

I have a whole "hidden ajah" theory about why Verin was so hot to help Rand.  That would explain why she convinced herself that Moraine sent her.

I thought the idea of a "Purple Ajah" was dead and buried...

www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html

 

It's not the Purple Ajah theory.  Notice how I said ajah instead of Ajah.

[D24g0n]

I don't know why you keep bringing that up. You've got no thoughts of Verin's that says anything to support you. You should prove your ideas with the text. Moiraine claims she didn't send her. Verin claims Moiraine sent her, because they "might need her". You should prove that Verin misunderstood Moiraine.

 

Throughout the books it has been shown that AS's words can be very misleading, no matter how clear they seem.  RJ himself was known for using misleading words.

 

Our opinion is based on what we know about AS from the books and RJ.  You are required to show proof because your opinion goes against what we know about AS, especially this particular AS.

[Alghar Khan]

Throughout the books it has been shown that AS's words can be very misleading, no matter how clear they seem.  RJ himself was known for using misleading words.

But they can't tell a lie. A lie is to intentially tell an untruth.

 

Our opinion is based on what we know about AS from the books and RJ.  You are required to show proof because your opinion goes against what we know about AS, especially this particular AS.

My opinion is based on what we know about AS and their first oath. You are required to show proof because your opinion goes against what we know about AS, especially what we know about Verin. We know that she is a clever Brown. She shouldn't be misunderstanding what Moiraine said.

 

[Lord Nik]

I have a whole "hidden ajah" theory about why Verin was so hot to help Rand.  That would explain why she convinced herself that Moraine sent her.

I thought the idea of a "Purple Ajah" was dead and buried...

www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html

Second Foundation Ajah Theory (aka Purple Ajah Theory)

Theory: Verin is a member of a secret society whose members preserve ancient knowledge for humanity's need at the Last Battle. The existence of the BA shows that it is possible for a secret group to exist in the Tower-- if there is a group dedicated to evil, why not a group dedicated to good?

Problem: There have always been rumors of the BA. Nothing can be kept secret for centuries in a place with so many people in it, and so much scheming as the White Tower. And yet, we've never heard any hint of this secret group.

I'd be amazed if a "secret Ajah" suddenly rocks up at TG.

 

purple ajah!

dont be absurd

if they would choose a colour for a new ajah it would be orange!

 

 

(and the thought of having a secret ajah dedicated to good is stragne on this account)

 

all ajahs serve the light (except black)

well there supposed to.. right?

[RobertAlexWillis]

But they can't tell a lie. A lie is to intentially tell an untruth.

 

Alghar ... that is YOUR definition.  It also happens to be what I tell little children when I'm trying to teach them to behave morally.  But it is NOT in any way related to the first Oath.  The word "lie" is nowhere in the oath.  Aes Sedai can and do deceive people on a regular basis.

 

WORDS DO NOT MEAN THE SAME THING TO EVERYONE, IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE.  It seems absurd to me that I even have to make that statement (which will, obviously, be interpreted differently by each person who reads it).  Ironically, you are demonstrating that my point is correct simply by having this argument!

 

Verin is an expert in the field of using people's contextual expectations to make deceptive implications without violating the first Oath; she may be the best we've seen among the Aes Sedai in that area.

 

The Oaths are interpreted (and enforced) through the subjective mind of the Sister in question.  Not your mind, Alghar.  Not my mind, either.  In a very real way, each Sister takes a slightly different Oath, at least in application, because each Sister will perceive the Oath differently.  A White would be much more likely to be inclined to agree with you, and if she did, then that is how the first Oath would work, for her.  Verin's mental processes, best evidenced in her POV in TPoD prologue, do not agree with your interpretation.  You are simply, in this case, incorrect.

[Zaladane]

I chose the option of her being freed of the oaths.  She seemed to be the most knowledgeable when it comes to terangreal and the sort (until Elayne of course)  and always just sorta figured she somehow freed herself.  Maybe they always have one aes sedai who is freed for certain things, meh I don't know, maybe the next book will clear this up.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I have to admit, I will be extraordinarily disappointed if she is free of just that one Oath, without being a Darkfriend.  It would make her a hypocrite of the highest order.

[D24g0n]

But they can't tell a lie. A lie is to intentially tell an untruth.

 

My opinion is based on what we know about AS and their first oath. You are required to show proof because your opinion goes against what we know about AS, especially what we know about Verin. We know that she is a clever Brown. She shouldn't be misunderstanding what Moiraine said.

 

What we know about AS that is relevant to this argument:

 

AS swear an oath, "To speak no word that is not true."

AS are well known for saying very misleading things.

 

There is nothing that says Verin is not bound by the first Oath.  Verin saying something that seems odd, or seems like a lie, is not sufficient proof to show she is not bound by this particular oath.  

 

You are saying that Verin is going against the first Oath.  This goes against what is known, and requires proof.

What I am saying does not contradict either of those two, in fact it goes along with what we know.

[Kaznen]

I have a whole "hidden ajah" theory about why Verin was so hot to help Rand.  That would explain why she convinced herself that Moraine sent her.

I thought the idea of a "Purple Ajah" was dead and buried...

www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html

Second Foundation Ajah Theory (aka Purple Ajah Theory)

Theory: Verin is a member of a secret society whose members preserve ancient knowledge for humanity's need at the Last Battle. The existence of the BA shows that it is possible for a secret group to exist in the Tower-- if there is a group dedicated to evil, why not a group dedicated to good?

Problem: There have always been rumors of the BA. Nothing can be kept secret for centuries in a place with so many people in it, and so much scheming as the White Tower. And yet, we've never heard any hint of this secret group.

I'd be amazed if a "secret Ajah" suddenly rocks up at TG.

 

purple ajah!

dont be absurd

if they would choose a colour for a new ajah it would be orange!

 

 

(and the thought of having a secret ajah dedicated to good is stragne on this account)

 

all ajahs serve the light (except black)

well there supposed to.. right?

My hidden ajah theory is more along the lines that one of the "lesser ajahs" mentioned in the BWB at the founding of the Tower split up and joined the other ajahs but kept in contact with each other and their original purpose, to find and serve the Dragon Reborn.

[Gentled Ben]

Verin knows that Moiraine never sent her anywhere.

 

We're still waiting for you to provide quotes to support this, Alghar Khan. You keep saying it; prove it with the text.

I don't know why you keep bringing that up. You've got no thoughts of Verin's that says anything to support you. You should prove your ideas with the text. Moiraine claims she didn't send her. Verin claims Moiraine sent her, because they "might need her". You should prove that Verin misunderstood Moiraine.

 

I keep bringing that up because it is long-past the time that you should support your argument with the text. Verin gave indication of what she understands Moiraine to have done. I showed that in the text even without being required to do so. All you have is an argument that goes "The First Oath means what I say it does because I say that's what it means, "sent" means what I say it does despite what the dictionaries tell us, and Verin  knows what I say she knows because I said so."

[benr]

I don't understand the logical progression of using Verin's POV as a defense of her being bound to the first oath, while at the same time contending that the first oath is so worthless that a bald faced lie such as "Moiraine sent me, Lord Inktar.  She thought you might need me" can be shrugged off by all concerned.  If the oath is that weak, then she is trying so hard with her compulsion subjects perhaps because it comes so unnaturally to her. 

 

Ah, well, unlike RAW, I won't be disappointed if Verin is a few oaths short of a full load.  I'm really thinking that she has something pretty big up her sleeve, and it will play a big part in AMoL.

 

No-ones going to convince either side on this one.  On to other threads.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm really thinking that she has something pretty big up her sleeve, and it will play a big part in AMoL.

 

I agree with that.  Why does releasing herself from the Oaths that all Aes Sedai take, while still pretending to be Aes Sedai, have to be a part of that?

[Gentled Ben]

It's because you don't understand what the Oath proscribes; you confuse what you perceive as the spirit of the Oath with the letter of the Oath, which is all that Verin actually needs to meet. As long as she can convince herself that what she says is technically true, she keeps the Oath. To see the logical progression, see how she carefully chooses true words in the PoD prologue in order to keep the Oath, while giving misinformation to Beldeine. She even does it intentionally; she is purposefully deceiving Beldeine and not being what you might consider honest with her, but she does it without speaking any words that are not true, so she does not violate the Oath with which she is obviously bound.

[benr]

I'm really thinking that she has something pretty big up her sleeve, and it will play a big part in AMoL.

 

I agree with that.  Why does releasing herself from the Oaths that all Aes Sedai take, while still pretending to be Aes Sedai, have to be a part of that?

 

You're right, it doesn't need to.  But if it doesn't mean something, why did RJ include this whole sequence at all?  And why am I answering this?  I can't seem to help myself.

[Mr Ares]

But if it doesn't mean something, why did RJ include this whole sequence at all?

It does mean something. That something has nothing to do with Verin being unbound, though.

[RobertAlexWillis]

But if it doesn't mean something, why did RJ include this whole sequence at all?

 

In my opinion, RJ was demonstrating the limits (or lack of limits) of the first Oath.  The Great Hunt is the first book where we deal with Aes Sedai as a group or society, and he is starting to demonstrate how they can wiggle around the Oaths as part of developing them in the story.

[solarz]

I find it amazing how so many readers are willing to twist themselves into a knot to justify something that is patently unjustifiable.

 

Verin claimed Moiraine sent her. Moiraine claimed she did not send Verin.

 

Therefore, either Verin lied, or Moiraine did.

 

We *know* that Moiraine is not Black Ajah, therefore Verin must have lied. Ergo, Verin is Black Ajah.

 

I'm pretty amazed that something this obvious was still hotly debated before the final revelation.

[Sabio]

Yes Verin lied, but before anyone knew for sure Verin was BA there was always a chance she was twisting what you were hearing,.  Moiraine could of said I wish someone was looking over Rand, Verin could then of twisted that to say Moiriane sent her.  We now know with 100% certainity it was a lie but before that anything regarding Aes Sedai is never that easy.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Sabio

[solarz]

15 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Yes Verin lied, but before anyone knew for sure Verin was BA there was always a chance she was twisting what you were hearing,.  Moiraine could of said I wish someone was looking over Rand, Verin could then of twisted that to say Moiriane sent her.  We now know with 100% certainity it was a lie but before that anything regarding Aes Sedai is never that easy.

 

In a book, the information the author supplies is precisely the information they want the reader to know, nothing more, nothing less. Had RJ wanted to show how AS can twist the truth, he would have made Verin say something different that would have achieved the same effect (i.e. get Ingtar to accept her company). The fact that RJ made Verin say those exact words, and then have Moiraine specifically repudiate them is intended to be a clue.

 

Now, I understand why people didn't want to believe Verin was BA, as she did not behave like any of the other black AS. What I found amazing were the excuses people came up with to justify that belief. A good example is what you just said. In a book, only what is written happened. What is not written is never relevant. RJ did not write anything about Moiraine saying something Verin could have used to justify her claim, therefore it did not happen.

[Wulf]

Quote

To speak no word that is not true

 

The oaths themselves must be up for interpretation otherwise you could spot an Aes Sedai by her being the only one in the room going "True?  True true.  Truetrue true true, true."

 

I'm sure somebody could use mental gymnastics to render all 3 (and maybe the lesser discussed 4th) of the oaths powerless, since they're only enforced by the belief of the person speaking them in the first place.