Mashadar vs. Machin Chin Theory. Tell me what you think.

[Arbanblade]

Alright this is my very first time posting a theory so here it goes...

 

I have often thought of the evil that was present in Shadar Logoth. Also the presence that is Machin Shin(The Black Wind) that exists within the ways. What I bring to you today is a theory that they share a commonality that maybe people haven't yet thought of. I will present evidence to this effect and allow you to draw your own conclusions based on this evidence.

 

Lets start with listing the facts of Mashadar within Shadar Logoth.

 

We all know that Mashadar was the entity created by the people of Aridhol because of their strict desire to destroy the shadow they themselves began to enlist the methods of the Shadow and worse in order to fight it. People in the world often said "Better to encounter a Trolloc than a Aridhol soldier".

 

Aridhol eventually destroyed itself. Mashadar was created in place of that evil with the soul of Mordeth(The man responsible for driving and leading the people of Aridhol to their destruction.) waiting for some pour soul to devour and possess so he could walk the world again. Mashadar being a grey like fog that devours its victims.

 

Alright now lets list some facts of Machin Shin(The Black Wind).

 

It inhabits the ways(which contain no wind at all) It creeps like a black fog upon its victims and kills them, drives them insane or leaves them a soulless embodiment of what they were before.

 

It has been described as 1000's of voices speaking of pain and anguish and death and torture and various other inhuman acts.

 

Some similarities between the two have already been listed here, they both share a fog-like essence and do very similar things to their victims that they catch.

 

There are some other similarities they share as well. One primary similarity is that they are both regarded as not of the Shadow but of other evil as they will kill shadowspawn as quickly if not more so than any other. Shadowspawn will only go into these areas with the strongest of influence at their backs.

 

Lets talk time frame.

Aridhol met its fate during the trolloc wars when it destroyed itself.

 

The ways began to show serious signs of corruption years later during the war of Hundred years...

 

Aridhol was a Ogier built city which means there was a steading nearby and therefore a Waygate to get to that Steading.

 

We know for a fact that Shadar Logoth had a waygate because it was where Sammael was last seen standing before Mashadar overtook and killed him at the of ACoS.

 

And now the biggest piece of evidence is of course Padan Fain.

 

Fain's soul was touched by the Dark one and therefore when he was consumed by Mashadar, Mordeth wasnot able to completely overcome Fain but instead joined with him creating a Fain/Mordeth entity.

 

When Fain walked the Ways, Machin Shin came in contact with him he was met with the voices of The Black Wind, some greeted him, others feared him. In any case he was allowed to walk free of the Entity that didn't even leave shadowspawn living.

 

So after all this rambling about facts here is the theory. Machin Shin is a off shoot of Mashadar. At some point either someone opened the Waygate at Shadar Logoth and Mashadar creeped itself in, or over the course of a long period of time Mashadar was able to seep itself past the waygate. Either way that piece of Mashadar was cut off via the waygate from the rest of Shadar Logoth and unable to leave once it was trapped. Which would explain why it wasnt affected by the cleansing of Saidin. The Ogier obviously would never enter they ways after the corruption was known and even more so would never go to the way gate at Shadar Logoth thereby creating a block in the history of that waygate being recorded at any point during the last 2500 years.

 

For the theory that the taint created the problem with the ways I refer to a statement a friend of Mine Nate S. made "While the ways were made by men who had the taint, from what we've seen the taint only affected the channeler himself, but it doesn't really effect the chaenneling itself" When ever Rand or the other Male Channelers, both the current ones and the Male Aes Sedai of the past, they created weaves out of insanity but the weaves themselves are not tainted. Rand described the taint as an oily layer of ooze over the top of pure water. The taint was a barrier between men and Saidin. Saidin was still pure on the other side of the taint.

 

So, Are Mashadar and Machin Shin basicalaly the Same entity?

 

I leave it to you to decide whether or not this theory holds any weight or validity to the Wheel of Time universe.

 

Again I want to thank Nate S. for his input on this theory.

 

Please Let me know what you think.

 

Jimmy K

[Bela]

I don't remember the exact descriptions of both entities but isn't Mashadar like gooey fog tendrils, while Machin Shin is like the Lost monster, a cloud of evil, shadows, souls and smoke. I don't know if those descriptions are accurate or just how I interpreted them when I read the books, but it also seems as though Mashadar is completely mindless, kind of like a catepillar or something, searching for food, able to sense the food, but not really caring if it gets the food, rather acting on instinct. On the other hand, Machin Shin hunts down people in the ways and was waiting for Rand, not exactly mindless. Even with those two pieces of information (though my descriptions may be wrong) I guess it would be possible for Mashadar to creep in at some more intelligent state, and as it got older it turned into this mindless deathfog. Or it could have always been mindless and somehow the Machin Shin part of it evolved into an intelligent entity, while also turning more evil and ...decrepit in the Ways. It is hard to describe smoke entities. So you are implying that Machin Shin part of Mashadar caused the ways to fall into the state of disrepair they are in, and in a sense tainted the Ways with it's own evil. Very interesting theory... very plausible at that.

[Naderbomb]

I agree with this theory.  It's not something I had ever thought of but it kind of makes sense.  To borrow from another geek universe, I see this as kind of a Venom/Carnage kind of thing.  Two beings that are similar but also very different.  Also, the interaction between Padan Fain/Mordeth and Machin Shin further proves the connection to Mashadar because we're told that when Fain was overcome by Machin Shin it reacted with both welcome and fear.  The people of Aridhol would react just like that to Mordeth.  Some would se him as the hero that helped them stave off the shadow, and some would likely be afraid of him for the way that he corrupted them. It also explains why Fain could make Machin Shin go where he wanted. They followed his direction so completely before so why not now?  So to conclude, this the type of theory I really like when it brings up an idea that I had never even considered.

[Dark Justice]

I was pretty sure Machin Chin is a result of the taint. It was made with the power, wasnt it?

[Arbanblade]

IN reply to yoru question, Not Machin Chin has never been confirmed created by the Taint. Also it was the ways that were created with teh One power. Also if you read in the post that Never while Saidin was tainted were any of the weaves corrupted after the fact because of the taint. Rand can form a perfect bolt of Balefire and it doesnt have any tainted or corrosive backlash because of the Taint specifically.

[Nightstrike]

I copied and pasted the following from WoTFAQ (1.7.2 Mordeth, Mashadar and Mashin Shin):

 

Mordeth

Mordeth was the councillor whose evil brought Aridhol to its doom. As far as we know, he was an actual person at the time of the Trolloc Wars. He was the power behind the throne of Balwen, and led Aridhol to the policy of "The victory of the Light is all....while their deeds abandoned the Light." When the city was consumed by its own evil, only Mordeth remained, bound to Shadar Logoth. One supposes that at some point he died, leaving his spirit to haunt the ruins. Mordeth's way out was to convince someone "to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, [where he was] able to consume the soul of that person." That person was Fain, and it didn't quite work out that way, due to the DO's influence on Fain. Anyway, Mordeth no longer haunts Shadar Logoth, he is inside Fain, merged with him. [TEOTW: 19, Shadow's Waiting, 244]

 

Mashadar

Like Mordeth, Mashadar is connected with Shadar Logoth. However, Mordeth and Mashadar are NOT the same. Mordeth is/was a sentient being, an individual. Mashadar is some sort of physical manifestation of the evil nature of the city: "No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering." [TEOTW: 19, Shadow's Waiting, 244] In particular, Mashadar is a slightly glowing fog. "Mashadar. Unseeing, unthinking, moving through the city as aimlessly as a worm burrows through the earth. If it touches you, you will die." [TEOTW: 20, Dust on the Wind, 249] It is not sentient. It just moves around and kills whatever it touches, in a rather painful fashion, if Liah's reaction to being touched by it in [ACOS: 41, A Crown of Swords, 660] is any indication. Mashadar, or something similar to it, may have existed prior to the Trolloc Wars. In [TEOTW: 50, Meetings at the Eye, 628], Aginor refers to the Shadar Mandarb, or the taint on it, as "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy." [ACOS book signing: Vancouver, 24 August, 1996; report by Lara Beaton], RJ said that Mashadar appeared after everybody in Aridhol had killed one another.

 

Machin Shin

The Black Wind of the Ways. It is a part of the "Darkening of the Ways": "About a thousand years ago, during what you humans call the War of the Hundred Years, the Ways began to change....they grew dank and dim...some who came out had gone mad, raving about Machin Shin, the Black Wind." [TEOTW: 43, Decisions and Apparitions, 545] People who run into the Black Wind end up mad, or a mindless husk like the Ogier in [TGH: 36, Among The Elders, 435]. After TEOTW, Machin Shin gained a new feature: it somehow seeks out Rand. Whenever Rand tries to use the Ways, Machin Shin is found at the Waygate he is using. Note that this ONLY happens to Rand. When Liandrin, etc use the ways in TGH, and when Perrin does in TSR, they do not find the Black Wind waiting for them at the Waygate. This new effect is probably somehow due to its encounter with Fain in TEOTW. It seems to have picked up Fain's drive to seek out Rand. Note that it is probably NOT under Fain's control; Fain wanted Rand to follow him to Falme, but Machin Shin prevented him from doing so.

Where did the Black Wind come from? Nobody really knows. Moiraine makes some speculation in [TEOTW: 45, What Follows in Shadow, 576]: "Something left from the Time of Madness, perhaps....Or even from the War of the Shadow, the War of Power. Something hiding in the Ways so long it can no longer get out. No one, not even among the Ogier, knows how far the Ways run, or how deep. It could even be something of the Ways themselves. As Loial said, the Ways are living things, and all living things have parasites. Perhaps even a creature of the corruption itself, something born of the decay. Something that hates life and light."

 

Some people believe that Mashadar and Machin Shin are somehow connected, that Mashadar somehow got into the Ways through the Shadar Logoth Waygate and then became the Black Wind. This is very unlikely, for the following reasons: 1) Mashadar dates from the Trolloc Wars, Machin Shin from the Hundred Years' War. That is about a thousand years' difference. Thus, the time scale does not agree. 2) Mashadar is a slow-moving glowing fog that kills everything it touches. Machin Shin is a black, howling wind that eats your soul, but doesn't kill your body. So, there is no similarity of appearance, or effect. 3) If Mashadar could get into the Ways from Shadar Logoth, logic says it could get out of the Ways at some other point, and spread itself across Randland. This clearly hasn't happened.

 

[ROB_88]

i can see how it's plausible, but i don't believe it

 

firstly, as far as we know Mashadar kills the victim, but Machin Chin devours theyre soul and then kills them if they don't manage to escape.

 

Mashadar is a semi intelligence-free thing that only actively seek out Shadowspawn.

While in The Two Rivers with Perrin during the trolloc attacks, Verin mentions that Shadowspawn have more of a chance to escape Machin Chin than humans although they suffer the same fate if caught.

 

and i don't think the Fain complex is bacause of any Machin Chin/Mashadar connection.

i think that the Wind is a collection of corrupted souls and he is a corrupted soul a lá grande, with special corruption powers.

 

question. wen Rand and Sammael fight there, do we ever see the waygate open?

cause if that happens we would see if the fog would creep in or not

 

EDIT: damn you Nightstrike, you beat me to it

[Nightstrike]

EDIT: damn you Nightstrike, you beat me to it

Heh, yeah... But I cheated, so you'll beat me next time.

[Dark Justice]

oh. RJ also said:

The evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Shadow might be considered positive and negative poles.  They attract, as do the positive and negative poles of two magnets, but if they make contact, the result is more like making contact between the positive and negative poles of your car battery.  Big sparks.  Really big sparks.

[Arbanblade]

Dark Justice, I'm not trying to sound rude, But what does that have to do with the actual Theory, If anything you are showing more proof they they are one in the Same....

[agaga]

Dark Justice, I'm not trying to sound rude, But what does that have to do with the actual Theory, If anything you are showing more proof they they are one in the Same....

 

Maybe I'm just being dense (I admit I haven't slept much lately) But DarkJustice statement from R.J. that would make them polar opposites.

[Arbanblade]

Another point that should be stated is that we havent ever been told that Machin Chin is a corruption caused by the Taint on Saidin, its only been speculated as such by people because the Ways were created by Tainted Saidin. But the facts are that nobody has any real proof one way or the other.

[mb]

Here is the link for the page Nightstrike quoted::

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.7_sl-fain/1.7.2_mshin-mashadar.html

 

[Bela]

Machin *Shin  :) Not chin.

[Mr Ares]

Rand can form a perfect bolt of Balefire and it doesnt have any tainted or corrosive backlash because of the Taint specifically.

Hardly comparable. The Ways have been in existence for more than 3,000 years, Rand's balefire hasn't. The corruption of the Ways happened over time.

 

Given the evidence already put forward, about how they behave differently, kill in different ways, look completely different, are, in fact, far more different than they are alike, I would say the only decent answer to the question "Are Mashadar and Machin Shin basicalaly the Same entity?" is No.

[Arbanblade]

I thought I would bring this post forward again for discussion. Please tell me what you think,

[Gentled Ben]

I think it's already been shot down by posts like this one, the one right after it by Rob, and the one by Mr Ares just above you there. You know, the three posts you've ignored...

 

I copied and pasted the following from WoTFAQ (1.7.2 Mordeth, Mashadar and Mashin Shin):

 

Mordeth

Mordeth was the councillor whose evil brought Aridhol to its doom. As far as we know, he was an actual person at the time of the Trolloc Wars. He was the power behind the throne of Balwen, and led Aridhol to the policy of "The victory of the Light is all....while their deeds abandoned the Light." When the city was consumed by its own evil, only Mordeth remained, bound to Shadar Logoth. One supposes that at some point he died, leaving his spirit to haunt the ruins. Mordeth's way out was to convince someone "to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, [where he was] able to consume the soul of that person." That person was Fain, and it didn't quite work out that way, due to the DO's influence on Fain. Anyway, Mordeth no longer haunts Shadar Logoth, he is inside Fain, merged with him. [TEOTW: 19, Shadow's Waiting, 244]

 

Mashadar

Like Mordeth, Mashadar is connected with Shadar Logoth. However, Mordeth and Mashadar are NOT the same. Mordeth is/was a sentient being, an individual. Mashadar is some sort of physical manifestation of the evil nature of the city: "No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering." [TEOTW: 19, Shadow's Waiting, 244] In particular, Mashadar is a slightly glowing fog. "Mashadar. Unseeing, unthinking, moving through the city as aimlessly as a worm burrows through the earth. If it touches you, you will die." [TEOTW: 20, Dust on the Wind, 249] It is not sentient. It just moves around and kills whatever it touches, in a rather painful fashion, if Liah's reaction to being touched by it in [ACOS: 41, A Crown of Swords, 660] is any indication. Mashadar, or something similar to it, may have existed prior to the Trolloc Wars. In [TEOTW: 50, Meetings at the Eye, 628], Aginor refers to the Shadar Mandarb, or the taint on it, as "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy." [ACOS book signing: Vancouver, 24 August, 1996; report by Lara Beaton], RJ said that Mashadar appeared after everybody in Aridhol had killed one another.

 

Machin Shin

The Black Wind of the Ways. It is a part of the "Darkening of the Ways": "About a thousand years ago, during what you humans call the War of the Hundred Years, the Ways began to change....they grew dank and dim...some who came out had gone mad, raving about Machin Shin, the Black Wind." [TEOTW: 43, Decisions and Apparitions, 545] People who run into the Black Wind end up mad, or a mindless husk like the Ogier in [TGH: 36, Among The Elders, 435]. After TEOTW, Machin Shin gained a new feature: it somehow seeks out Rand. Whenever Rand tries to use the Ways, Machin Shin is found at the Waygate he is using. Note that this ONLY happens to Rand. When Liandrin, etc use the ways in TGH, and when Perrin does in TSR, they do not find the Black Wind waiting for them at the Waygate. This new effect is probably somehow due to its encounter with Fain in TEOTW. It seems to have picked up Fain's drive to seek out Rand. Note that it is probably NOT under Fain's control; Fain wanted Rand to follow him to Falme, but Machin Shin prevented him from doing so.

Where did the Black Wind come from? Nobody really knows. Moiraine makes some speculation in [TEOTW: 45, What Follows in Shadow, 576]: "Something left from the Time of Madness, perhaps....Or even from the War of the Shadow, the War of Power. Something hiding in the Ways so long it can no longer get out. No one, not even among the Ogier, knows how far the Ways run, or how deep. It could even be something of the Ways themselves. As Loial said, the Ways are living things, and all living things have parasites. Perhaps even a creature of the corruption itself, something born of the decay. Something that hates life and light."

 

Some people believe that Mashadar and Machin Shin are somehow connected, that Mashadar somehow got into the Ways through the Shadar Logoth Waygate and then became the Black Wind. This is very unlikely, for the following reasons: 1) Mashadar dates from the Trolloc Wars, Machin Shin from the Hundred Years' War. That is about a thousand years' difference. Thus, the time scale does not agree. 2) Mashadar is a slow-moving glowing fog that kills everything it touches. Machin Shin is a black, howling wind that eats your soul, but doesn't kill your body. So, there is no similarity of appearance, or effect. 3) If Mashadar could get into the Ways from Shadar Logoth, logic says it could get out of the Ways at some other point, and spread itself across Randland. This clearly hasn't happened.

 

[Majsju]

Another point that should be stated is that we havent ever been told that Machin Chin is a corruption caused by the Taint on Saidin, its only been speculated as such by people because the Ways were created by Tainted Saidin. But the facts are that nobody has any real proof one way or the other.

 

Well, I would say that RJs own words are about as real as proof can get...

 

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there. Could you regard them as a servant of the dark one or perhaps almost as a forsaken?

RJ: Its not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say its a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the Taint and the one power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways.

So its not a servant of the Dark One, but its definitely on the evil side.

 

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of Saidin.

RJ: No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless its feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9916/t/First-dragon-con-report.html

[Arbanblade]

Majsju thank you. You have been the first to put this to rest. I hadnt ever come across that specific quote from RJ. Thank you

[pxnsolid]

While in The Two Rivers with Perrin during the trolloc attacks, Verin mentions that Shadowspawn have more of a chance to escape Machin Chin than humans although they suffer the same fate if caught.

 

I recall that Verin thinks that this may be so, not that its known. i dont recall exactly, but its something along the lines of many smaller parties would have to have been brought instead of one large army, though possibly shadowspawn attract it less then people do. hmmm...

 

something like that, close enough anyways.

[Dark Justice]

I reasd that pat just yesterday, and she is in no way sertain. She brings up how the trollocs needs to move in small numbers aswell to avoid Machin Shin. Then she wonders wether the shadowspawn attract less attention than others, and walks away in deep in thoughts.

[jsbrads]

I do not know if a way gate ever fell to the Blight before Malkier... if one fell at the correct time frame i'll stick with my assumption; it was a Blight related infection.

The Ways are a living growing thing.

[Majsju]

I do not know if a way gate ever fell to the Blight before Malkier... if one fell at the correct time frame i'll stick with my assumption; it was a Blight related infection.

The Ways are a living growing thing.

 

Too bad that RJs own words as qoted above directly contradicts your assumption.