White Tower/General Aes Sedai stupidity

[Thor]

strength of channeling has nothing to do with it.  if anything, the stronger channelers should die faster since they would have a greater sense of loss.

[Nightstrike]

strength of channeling has nothing to do with it.  if anything, the stronger channelers should die faster since they would have a greater sense of loss.

I meant that they were some of the "mentally" strongest. A lot of will power. I don't know about channeler's strengths... I don't think we've been told about how strength might affect severed people's mental balance. If there is any difference, then I would think the stronger ones might be more severely affected.

[Luckers]

I still believe that most of those that dies would have died anyway. Logain was free to go where he pleased before Salidar, and he was in really, really bad shape. He most likely would have died if he hadn't been Healed by Nynaeve.

 

The attitude im speaking of is not limited to those held by Aes Sedai--why would Logain's freedom have changed things any more than Owyn's did? They are still severed, and still being impacted by the loss of their entire lives and anything that means anything, as well as any form of compassion.

 

We are speaking of a societal belief system and value system. Its initiated by the Aes Sedai--they are the authority on this, that which the world looks to for guidence, and they could do worlds to stop it--but it is not limited to them.

 

Why does Logain being free change anything?

 

From WoT encyclopaedia (about Cadsuane):

 

Quote

ACoS,Glossary - Men she brings to the White Tower to tend to live markedly longer after being gentled than those brought by other sisters.

 

They "tend" to live "markedly longer".

 

When Siuan got Healed, she said that she had tried to convince herself that she wasn't dead before. But that she wasn't feeling alive before, the way she did after being Healed. Or something very like that (I'm paraphrasing from out of memory). Siuan and Leane are probably some of the strongest people in the entire series. And they were feeling bad.

 

This is my view on these things, of course. I don't think either one of us can prove anything. With better treatment, they might (just might) be able to make most severed survive. It's also possible that, even with better treatment, most of those that dies would die anyway (maybe a couple of months or maybe a whole year later).

 

Of course they were feeling bad. Loss of the ability to channel is like drug withdrawal--i don't know how many times i must say that. The issues we are discussing is what additional detrimental effect the societal disdain has. Men have the disgust factor--the second they begin channel they become something they've been taught to hate--hate. Specifically. If taken by Aes Sedai they can expect to be caged like an animal. And Aes Sedai--after a life of being important they get dismissed, everything they valued about themselves they are suddenly told is no longer valuable, as if their knowledge, their achievements, theirs skills are suddenly void.

 

The fact remains, of course, that those able to find a sense of meaning are more likely to survive, and that the societal opinion--which means that, no matter if they are male or female channelers, they lose everything that matters to them--and that is sure as hell gonna effect their mental health.

 

Yes, they feel bad. Their society makes them feel worse. Presumably without that social push there would be less deaths due to this. That's simple logic.

 

Are you even reading the posts here? Siuan and Leane are subject to this. So is Logain. Beyond that whether they could make most survive or even one more survive then its worth the effort. I's even worth the effort to make some live 'markedly longer'.

[Nightstrike]

The fact remains, of course, that those able to find a sense of meaning are more likely to survive, and that the societal opinion--which means that, no matter if they are male or female channelers, they lose everything that matters to them--and that is sure as hell gonna effect their mental health.

 

Yes, they feel bad. Their society makes them feel worse. Presumably without that social push there would be less deaths due to this. That's simple logic.

Agreed... with some additions... and buts...

 

Are you even reading the posts here? Siuan and Leane are subject to this. So is Logain. Beyond that whether they could make most survive or even one more survive then its worth the effort. I's even worth the effort to make some live 'markedly longer'.

Yes, I am. And... agreed...

 

The thing you were arguing for was something else than what I agreed with you about (with additions and ifs/buts). You see, I did read your post a few pages back. Here it is again:

Mmm, i agree most seem to die--though it is correct that we don't know for sure... As for Logain and Owyn... neither are particularily good examples. Logain was kept in a cage, good enough, and Owyn lost everything he knew. Their lives predisposed the worst to their depression. Thats the Aes Sedai's fault more than anything, their attitude toward male channelers is dispicable.

 

But thats more or less what your quote shows--if an effort is made to help these people, they live longer. And even if it is not forever--its still something.

 

Even thats not proof--the social guilt these men must feel, even with the greatest help provided, must push them towards hating themselves thus adding to the depression. Same goes with the disdain given to Aes Sedai who get burned out, as if they are suddenly not the same person.

If the overall attitude was different i imagine the survival rate would be much greater.

There were some things I did not agree with. I am fairly certain (though I can't prove it) that the survival rate for neither men nor women could have been much greater. Maybe a little higher, but not by much. You speak of "disdain" toward the severed Aes Sedai, but I don't think it's such a great evil thing that was done by the Aes Sedai. Usually they WANT to leave the Tower, so they won't have to be reminded of their lives as Aes Sedai.

 

Good thing this is only fiction. Now they can Heal the severed ones anyway, so this is not of any great consequence to the story.

 

 

[DemandredFO]

I believe that what Luckers means by disdain.  You, Nightstrike, say severed Aes Sedai WANT to leave but that is only because it has been ingrained in them that a severed channeler is useless.  I will not rehash more of Luckers' arguments.  I say Logain is a bad example of a severed channeler because as soon as he got that halo, whenever it was, it became impossible for him to die or at the least very unlikely.

I apologize inadvance Luckers if I misconstrued what you were saying.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, I think they want to leave. For the reasons I mentioned. I think it might have been mentioned in the books also. Not that it matters much, anymore. They can Heal them now. I don't think we'll get the answers in AMoL. And none of us can prove anything about survival rates. That's the situation in a nutshell. I don't think the majority of AS are evil. Some are, of course...

[magnutz]

Yes, I think they want to leave. For the reasons I mentioned. I think it might have been mentioned in the books also. Not that it matters much, anymore. They can Heal them now. I don't think we'll get the answers in AMoL. And none of us can prove anything about survival rates. That's the situation in a nutshell. I don't think the majority of AS are evil. Some are, of course...

 

The White Tower - an institution of power that has turned on itself. To many webs woven by too many different Aes Sedai and too many secrets within secrets have made the Tower and the women who reside in it introvert and dangerous. I sort of see a rotten apple, one where the shell still looks nice and ripe but when you slice it open the rotten meat shows itself.

 

The severed women cannot abide staying in the tower because they cannot any longer participate in the myriad of plots and secrets that are what makes the Tower Stand (which, ironically, also is the same reason the Tower gets split IMO). That and the cold shoulder they get from the "not-severed." ;)

 

Oh well. I'm heading back to the rereading of TEotW. I just love the part where Rand and Tam escapes the attack on their farm. Masterfully written! Full of feeling and intense moments. Great!

[Casco]

I still believe that most of those that dies would have died anyway. Logain was free to go where he pleased before Salidar, and he was in really, really bad shape. He most likely would have died if he hadn't been Healed by Nynaeve.

 

From WoT encyclopaedia (about Cadsuane):

ACoS,Glossary - Men she brings to the White Tower to tend to live markedly longer after being gentled than those brought by other sisters.

They "tend" to live "markedly longer".

 

When Siuan got Healed, she said that she had tried to convince herself that she wasn't dead before. But that she wasn't feeling alive before, the way she did after being Healed. Or something very like that (I'm paraphrasing from out of memory). Siuan and Leane are probably some of the strongest people in the entire series. And they were feeling bad.

 

This is my view on these things, of course. I don't think either one of us can prove anything. With better treatment, they might (just might) be able to make most severed survive. It's also possible that, even with better treatment, most of those that dies would die anyway (maybe a couple of months or maybe a whole year later).

 

Logain wanst free to go anywhere before the fall of Shuian. He was a prisoner. All men who get gentled where prisoners in the white tower. He was lucky though, he did get the chanse to escape, and did.

The Amyrlins who did get stilled as a punishment was doomed to live the rest of their life in the white tower as Novises or servents as a example for others. They lived for a long time before they died. So the reason for men to live longer is the Aes Sedai who keep them in there, they cant take their own life or something like that. They get healed if they are hurted or sick (like Logain did, thats why he did survive for a long time).

[MikeRiley]

Not all gentled men were kept prisoners in the tower. Just the false dragons who could channel. Logain was kept watched at all times to make sure he couldn't kill himself in any way and we know he did want to. We also know Owyn was turned loose after being gentled and that his village turned on him. Thom's hatred for Aes Sedai wasn't so much that they gentled him but that they didn't give him a chance because he was abandoned to his village's mercy.

[Mr Ares]

no logain could not have killed himself even if he wanted to.

 

he ran into min, min told him of her viewings of glory, which originated from the pattern, which gave logain a belief, a belief to keep living.

 

so the pattern stopped logain from killing himself, he couldn't have committed suicide.

That doesn't explain how Logain suddenly becomes immortal. Giving someone a reason to keep living might make them less willing to commit suicide, but not less able.

 

Not all gentled men were kept prisoners in the tower. Just the false dragons who could channel.

Reasonable, but do you have a source?

We also know Owyn was turned loose after being gentled

We also know that Owyn's gentling was atypical, in that it was part of the Vileness, following the Aiel War - normally, the Reds don't just gentle someone on the spot.

[Spideyninja20]

On 2/11/2009 at 4:28 PM, Majsju said:

 

You are. To be specific, about 50% of humanity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not anymore than any other group in randland, a lot less than most.

But of course, if a guy is an idiot, it is not the same thing, eh?

 

But he’s not taking about all women in the wheel of time, only those who can channel. In general, they believe that they are basically gods, while anyone who does anything they don’t like is a child who needs to be taught how to sit pretty. And they are very, very stupid. If they are told something is true that they don’t want to believe, they immediately disregard it as foolishness, and anytime they do something obviously wrong (bonding men against their will, assaulting people for little to no reason, etc.) or anything that obviously harms people, they still think that they’re right to do so, and we know they think that because we can read their thoughts on the page.

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Spideyninja20 said:

But he’s not taking about all women in the wheel of time, only those who can channel. In general, they believe that they are basically gods, while anyone who does anything they don’t like is a child who needs to be taught how to sit pretty. And they are very, very stupid. If they are told something is true that they don’t want to believe, they immediately disregard it as foolishness, and anytime they do something obviously wrong (bonding men against their will, assaulting people for little to no reason, etc.) or anything that obviously harms people, they still think that they’re right to do so, and we know they think that because we can read their thoughts on the page.

Just so you're aware, this is a 12 year old thread.

[Spideyninja20]

3 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Just so you're aware, this is a 12 year old thread.

Yes but I’m just getting into the wheel of time and the aes sedai make me very angry so I wanted to write this even if no one would read it.

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

8 minutes ago, Spideyninja20 said:

Yes but I’m just getting into the wheel of time and the aes sedai make me very angry so I wanted to write this even if no one would read it.

I think the problem is more that it is a dead discussion, so it’s not really fair to raise it again. The best thing I could think to do is create another thread like this, and link this one so people could check it out.