White Tower/General Aes Sedai stupidity

[magnutz]

Not trying to offend anyone but I have to ask this:

 

Aren't the Aes Sedai frearfully dense at times?  ??? I mean, all the way up to the Amyrlin Seat. How is that possible? The tests and such that they have to undergo before becoming Aes Sedai, both the trials as novices and as accepted AND the tests before being raised to the next level, must ensure that the women are not idiots, right? But, when I read the story I get the feeling that more than a handful of these full sisters are a bit behind on the Intelligence Train, a few cards short of a full deck. Why? How?

 

Any thoughts on the matter?

[JenLenaMom]

Maybe if you had an example instead of wild generalizations...

[metria31183]

I wouldn't say they are dense or unintelligent, just some are VERY closeminded.

[mb]

Maybe if you had an example instead of wild generalizations...

I agree.

 

I wouldn't say they are dense or unintelligent, just some are VERY closeminded.

Close-minded?  Maybe sometimes, but not always.  Yet I agree with them not being dense/unintelligent.

 

Aren't the Aes Sedai frearfully dense at times?  ??? I mean, all the way up to the Amyrlin Seat. How is that possible? The tests and such that they have to undergo before becoming Aes Sedai, both the trials as novices and as accepted AND the tests before being raised to the next level, must ensure that the women are not idiots, right? But, when I read the story I get the feeling that more than a handful of these full sisters are a bit behind on the Intelligence Train, a few cards short of a full deck. Why? How?

What makes you think this?

 

[MikeRiley]

There is a blanket elitism in all initiates of the White Tower. A thought that they are better than everybody else because they can channel. Their channeling naturally makes them more knowledgeable of a situation and so on. I shouldn't say all, Beonin's scene in her tent in Knife of Dreams with the man bringing her breakfast suggests she's not elitist and Cadsuane merely demands respect that is due Aes Sedai.

 

All you really need to do is open up any book to any scene showing Aes Sedai. They take charge any chance they can, talk down to non-channelers, assume a non-channeler's plans are going to fail and they should listen to advice (meaning follow their superior's orders). You see it very well in Egwene's treatment of Mat and their sending him off without even considering he was more than the farm boy they used to know.

 

Egwene and Nynaeve treated Mat, Rand and Perrin as little boys once they entered the White Tower despite the "boys'" involvement in the world's most important events. They were kids to be taken care of while they are off fighting the real important battles. Hopefully Rand won't do something foolish while Elayne's away hunting Black sisters! Egwene gets out of this somewhat when she starts seeing Rand as the Dragon and not as a friend (way up in Winter's Heart or so), but she jumps to conclusions still when it comes to Mat. When the rebel army is on the move and she sees some of the Band's soldiers with the bits of red cloth on their arms, she makes the assumption that they are lacking discipline and wear it to look nice. There was contempt in her thoughts. Mat a general? He's an untamed rogue, gambler and chaser of women. He probably bedded half the women who followed his Band. Never a thought that he might have grown up or changed. He was who he was and they were doing important things and had to babysit him.

 

We see it a lot with Nynaeve and Elayne making Thom and Juilan swear an oath to obey them and not get in the way. We see it in the treatment of Warders all over as pets. Most especially in Crossroads of Twilight where that one Aes Sedai asks Cadsuane if she should give her new warder's dragon pin back because he wants it so much. She says she wants him used to taking things only from her. She never considered what it meant, to her it's a piece of jewelry and she doesn't care about it any more than that it's upsetting her warder that she won't let him have it.

 

Aes Sedai have their own ideas of how the Last Battle should be fought. Some would gentle Rand and just assume only his presence in the world is required in order to win. Others would support Elaida's idea that he could be prepared for the fight on a close leash, directed by Aes Sedai who know better. It's this that makes them close minded. The idea that their opinion is right because they are more capable to handle a situation by being Aes Sedai. Whichever way they end up going, they are always right. Because, you know, they can channel. Even their rankings point to elitism. The one who can draw the most is the wisest.

 

This is probably long winded. I'd give examples of non-main character Aes Sedai but I'm terrible with names and it really is all through the series. It's almost laughable when their title suggests they are servants.

[Tyrell]

Yeah they are all pretty much entirely blinded by their supposed allpowerfulness; they can't see past their oversized egos or think outside the White Tower's very own Box for the most part.

 

There are exceptions, but not many.

[Majsju]

Not trying to offend anyone

 

You are. To be specific, about 50% of humanity.

 

when I read the story I get the feeling that more than a handful of these full sisters are a bit behind on the Intelligence Train, a few cards short of a full deck. Why? How?

 

 

 

Not anymore than any other group in randland, a lot less than most.

But of course, if a guy is an idiot, it is not the same thing, eh?

 

[Hydroc Claw]

For about two thousand years the Aes Sedai WERE the most powerful and wisest of humanity, with only a few exceptions. They simply knew more of the world of everyone else in history, politics, and general knowledge. A middle aged Aes Sedai had still lived longer than anyone who couldn't channel, and an old Aes Sedai had the knowledge of generations. They had every right to believe they were the best, because they were. The new initiates would pick up on this right away, and try to act like those Aes Sedai who had been around for two hundred years.

 

It's when things started changing that they became ignorant. All of a sudden there were people who had gone through harsher training and lived for just as long. Mat is still young(three years ago he really was the fool Egwene thinks of him as), but because of the extra memories he's at least as good a general as Gareth Bryne, who has had a lifetime of proving himself. Rand recieved a crash course in politics from Moiraine, Elayne, and others, and had to grow up really fast. But that's besides the point.

 

A lot of the examples of the main female characters talking down to the men are actually just that. It's the way the women in the world think, not just the Aes Sedai. Min thinks the same things of Rand as Elayne does.

[Dark Justice]

It seems to be all the same with the male channelers, and Rand more than anyone.

 

[Tyrell]

Not trying to offend anyone

 

You are. To be specific, about 50% of humanity.

 

I really don't think so. He was attacking Aes Sedai, not women. I don't see any blanket suggestions about women, just that Aes Sedai, as an institution appear to be "dense".

 

Edit : I'll add that it seems that one of the recurring themes explored by Jordan is that of miscommunication and ignorance, which I think he overdoes somewhat, to the point of stretching credibility. The male characters often present similar ignorance, however, they are also young and inexperienced.

[Roxinos]

Do we need to add sarcasm tags?

[Fox]

I kinda get the same feeling about Aes Sedai, that basically their way is the best way, but Rand does it too, so does Elayne (hence her fights with nynave) nynave does it, and so does all the Forsaken. Kind of social commentary on those who hold authority. Those with authority like to use it and not be questioned. How much more authority can you have when you have the power to kill people instantly, Compel them, and down right control them. You can kind of understand why they see themselves as demi-gods. People like that can't see their faults because if the do it could confusion at a time when decisiveness is needed. That's what all that WT training is about, decision making and living with the consequences, good and bad. Add that on top of age, people who are 30 and older are pretty set in their ways and views, now multiply that 6 and 7 times. They just become much more stubborn.

 

If I offended some of the older crowd. Oh well.. I'm part of it. I'm speaking from experience.

[magnutz]

I seem to have put my head into a hornets nest here. Beautiful. Now, before anything else goes KA-BOOM - Chill out. I asked a question and asked for opinions. I did not, intentionally, set out to offend and frankly I thought that a remote risk since the phenomenon I asked about was/is a fictious/made up one - characters in fiction.

 

"more than a hand-full" is hardly all of RJ's Aes Sedai characters. Some are very very bright (Moiraine, Siuan, Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve and a lot of other Aes Sedai) but some are ignorant beyond comprehension. My thought was, as stated in the first post, that they shouldn't be due to all the tests and such. As for examples, I don't keep a reading journal so I can't give exact quotes but this comes to mind: Even as far in to the story as book 7 and 8 there are Aes Sedai who won't believe in Seanchan, Black Ajah, Forsaken on the loose etc. How is that possible? I know that it has to do with denial or arrogance/ignorance but the way I read it it comes across as stupidity.

 

Now, I've read some posts that answer mine (not attacking it) and I agree. Sometimes the ignorance moves beyond the borders of credibility. But that is the way the story goes and I had better like it or I had better leave it I guess.

[MikeRiley]

When something is far away and so incredible sounding it's easy to not believe it. Some people need to see with their own eyes first. For a while they could have figured people went mad in the middle of the complete chaos Arad Domon fell into after book 2. There are those who still believe Rand is not the Dragon Reborn, though.

 

I'm missing where all these offensive posts are that people are apologizing over. Did they get deleted or am I just blind?

[Angel of Death]

I was just thinking about this today, while listening to TSR Ch1, the Amyrlin says she wishes Rand had never heard any of the prophecies of the dragon and thus not gone after Callandor. I thought to myself, that Suian should think the same way as Moiriane (considering the Dragon has been in their plans for their entire sisterhood) that if Rand had not heard them the pattern would still find a way to make him attempt to retreave it at that time.

 

There are other examples but I can't think of any right now.

[magnutz]

I was just thinking about this today, while listening to TSR Ch1, the Amyrlin says she wishes Rand had never heard any of the prophecies of the dragon and thus not gone after Callandor. I thought to myself, that Suian should think the same way as Moiriane (considering the Dragon has been in their plans for their entire sisterhood) that if Rand had not heard them the pattern would still find a way to make him attempt to retreave it at that time.

 

There are other examples but I can't think of any right now.

 

I agree! The Pattern would steer Rand toward the actions he has to take - Taveeren (sp) affect and change the pattern around them but are also more bound to the same than others, right? So, as you stated, Rand wouldn't have been able to avoid going for Callandor or for any of the other "mission objectives" having read the prophecies or not. But I guess some of these things are "errors" made by RJ, small things that avid readers pick up on. ;) Anyway, Siuan should have known.

[Luckers]

This is from a post I made about six months ago about the same issue.

 

The Aes Sedai are one of the most complex groups in the story. They have a lot of problems, problems that are made worse by their refusal to concider them. This is an attempt to look at them in their full nature. I'll start with them as close i can to the beginning of their nature and proceed from there. I will finish with a summary of their current situation.

 

Aes Sedai Recruitment

 

Their problems begin with the methods they use to recruit and train new girls. They restrict their training to young girls who have sought them out (with the exception of the odd wilder). They do this because the younger a novice the easier they are molded, and because those that seek them out have a stronger will, and thus are more likely to be effective Aes Sedai.

 

Excluding the blindness in that--the girls who never considered that they could channel, like Egwene and Nynaeve, yet nevertheless have made very strong, very capable Aes Sedai--there is a more insidious threat. That is that they were too successful.

 

By waiting on young, impressionable girls who are already wowed by the idea of Aes Sedai, and then proceeding to seclude them from the world for upwards of twenty years they result in Aes Sedai that are more concerned with trying to be what they think Aes Sedai should be, rather than simply being Aes Sedai. The title has come to mean more than the women that wear it, which means ultimately that said women are not worthy of the title.

 

This (combined with the point i will raise next) is the source of most of the modern Aes Sedai's childish behaviour. Comments such as 'there is truth that would burn any mind but an Aes Sedai's' and 'Thrones have fallen messing in the plans of the tower' are thrown around so often not as simple methods of persuasion, but because the Aes Sedai themselves are overawed by their own image. Their constant attempts to control every situation they are in stems not because they think themselves capable, but because they feel that as Aes Sedai they should be.

 

They are, for lack of a better phrase, victims of their own PR regiment.

 

The Oaths

 

Instigated initially to placate the fear of the general populace, they present a number of issues themselves. There is of course the obvious issues--the life-shortening effects the Oaths have on their lives. Also there are the effectiveness issues... the oath against using the power as a weapon, for instance, makes sense when dealing with non-channelers. For all that non-channelers might take out an individual Aes Sedai, any major attack could easily be held off by purely defensive methods, or at the worse, by the opening of the oaths to protect ones life (im speaking on the large scale by the way, with many Aes Sedai involved).

 

However, that does not continue through into dealing with enemies that have their own channelers. Such an oath only makes sense when you are the stronger force, not when you must deal with peers. And as we have seen with the emergence of the Asha'men, not to mention the Wise Ones, Windfinders and damane, the Aes Sedai are not the stronger force.

 

The same applies to the oath against the making of weapons for one man to kill another. They put that oath in at the memory of the terrible damage done during the Age of Legends--yet did not pause to consider that that damage was done in fighting a terrible enemy. Had the Light not equipped itself then something far worse would have come from it. It was pure luck that none of the Forsaken had expertise in making weapons. If they had the Light would have been doomed at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

But those are the obvious effects. What of the less obvious effects? Let's start with the original intentions of the Oaths--that they placate the fear of the masses. Certainly they have done so to a degree. Aes Sedai are trusted in a sense, and when they speak openly their words are taken as fact. But to go along with that are the constant iterance of phrases such as 'the truth an Aes Sedai speaks is not the truth you hear?"

 

It seems counter-productive to me to make people know you can't hurt them by swearing oaths not to... it presents the image that without such oaths Aes Sedai would be lying, murdering, weapon-mongers. Yes they are stopped from doing such things, yet it is still their nature.

 

And what of the effects on themselves. How long can a person who can't lie say something without coming to believe it to be true? Even when they know that they've manipulated the truth into a lie. Consider all the things Aes Sedai simply accepted as fact; should such intelligent, well-educated women such as they have been so simply accepting of the idea that the kin numbered a few dozen, that they gave up after a time and wandered off and stopped channeling?

 

It's a combination of the fact that all Aes Sedai are wowed by their own image, and that since they can't tell a lie, they obviously must speak the truth. Oh, they are intellectually aware of the holes in that, but after a time what was opinion becomes fact simply by that weight. Its an epidemic of their entire culture.

 

And one final point on the oaths before i move on. What of the ethical implications? The three oaths address negative aspects of human nature. Lying, violence and creating instruments to do violence. Noble things to want to avoid doing; yet nonetheless at times these things are necessary. As such how does one decide when to employ them?

 

The answer is simple--employ them when they are necessary. The Aes Sedai, however, due to the fact that they are power-bound against such things, do not reguard it so. For them, it has become a situation of 'what is not forbidden is allowed'. Look at them. Look how easily they lie by omission, or misrepresentation. An honest actual understanding of the concept and value of truth is completely missing from them, and that is contemptible.

 

The Decline in Their Numbers

 

They suggest that they have culled the ability from mankind by gentling every man they find, but we know this to be inaccurate. From RJ we know that roughly one percent of the modern population have the ability to channel which means there are several hundred thousand channelers in the Westlands alone. Logically it doesn't make sense either--most men don't spark until their mid twenties, which means they likely would already have families. All men who don't have the spark remain in the general genetic pool, as do the vast majority of female channelers.

 

The ability has indeed declined since the Age of Legends--from 3% to 1% likely as a result of a lack of interbreeding between male and female channelers. We know that in Shara were they specifically breed male and female channelers the numbers have remained higher. That being said, even with that decline, and the decline in the human populace of the westlands since the War of a Hundred Years there is still more than enough female channelers of a strength to gain the shawl--indeed, if all were found and trained they would exceed the Tower at its height by nearly tenfold.

 

So what are the causes for the decline?

 

The first is obvious. The introduction of the oaths halved the Aes Sedai's lifespan, which in turn halved the number of Aes Sedai that should be alive. Even so, without the oaths there would only be 2,000 Aes Sedai, still nothing near the 6,000 that the Aes Sedai numbered at their height.

 

The second reason is more insidious. Following Hawkwings attack the anger and fear the general populace felt for the Aes Sedai increased massively. This disfavour amongst the people continued, spouting misinformation where it went. We see the formation of the Children of the Light in this time, and the increased belief that Aes Sedai are darkfriend who broke the world for the Dark One (and it is increased, we know the people of the past had a much greater degree of knowledge about the nature of Aes Sedai and their intentions for the world, even when these people didn't trust Aes Sedai).

 

This change in the social perception of the Aes Sedai probably has alot to do with the way Aes Sedai currently hold themselves aloof from the general populace, which in turn likely spread the misinformation. As this increasingly bad opinion spread, naturally less girls sought the Tower. Effectively, the Tower continued on under its old method of letting girls approach, and when they didn't in as great a numbers the Tower concluded that the ability must be declining, when in fact it was simply that the girls desire to approach the Tower that declined. That, combined with the general decline in the westland population resulted in the marked decline witnessed in the Tower.

 

What is the Future for Aes Sedai

 

I think it's bright. The sudden influx of so many novices including mature women means that sooner or later their will be Aes Sedai who arn't indoctrinated with the idea of being Aes Sedai. Fresh thought will finally be introduced. And it is the perfect time for it. The Aes Sedai have suffered blows recently, and have been forced to change their thoughts on certain matters--the obvious example being the Asha'men. That means that they are in a state of flux, the perfect mentality for new thought to be introduced.

 

Add to that the ability to Travel and I suspect much more prodigious recruitment will begin.

 

Effectively, they're kind of wankers, but they're on their way out of that, and they have all the tools they need to achieve it.

 

[Nightstrike]

The Decline in Their Numbers

 

They suggest that they have culled the ability from mankind by gentling every man they find, but we know this to be inaccurate. From RJ we know that roughly one percent of the modern population have the ability to channel which means there are several hundred thousand channelers in the Westlands alone. Logically it doesn't make sense either--most men don't spark until their mid twenties, which means they likely would already have families. All men who don't have the spark remain in the general genetic pool, as do the vast majority of female channelers.

 

The ability has indeed declined since the Age of Legends--from 3% to 1% likely as a result of a lack of interbreeding between male and female channelers. We know that in Shara were they specifically breed male and female channelers the numbers have remained higher. That being said, even with that decline, and the decline in the human populace of the westlands since the War of a Hundred Years there is still more than enough female channelers of a strength to gain the shawl--indeed, if all were found and trained they would exceed the Tower at its height by nearly tenfold.

 

So what are the causes for the decline?

 

The first is obvious. The introduction of the oaths halved the Aes Sedai's lifespan, which in turn halved the number of Aes Sedai that should be alive. Even so, without the oaths there would only be 2,000 Aes Sedai, still nothing near the 6,000 that the Aes Sedai numbered at their height.

 

The second reason is more insidious. Following Hawkwings attack the anger and fear the general populace felt for the Aes Sedai increased massively. This disfavour amongst the people continued, spouting misinformation where it went. We see the formation of the Children of the Light in this time, and the increased belief that Aes Sedai are darkfriend who broke the world for the Dark One (and it is increased, we know the people of the past had a much greater degree of knowledge about the nature of Aes Sedai and their intentions for the world, even when these people didn't trust Aes Sedai).

 

This change in the social perception of the Aes Sedai probably has alot to do with the way Aes Sedai currently hold themselves aloof from the general populace, which in turn likely spread the misinformation. As this increasingly bad opinion spread, naturally less girls sought the Tower. Effectively, the Tower continued on under its old method of letting girls approach, and when they didn't in as great a numbers the Tower concluded that the ability must be declining, when in fact it was simply that the girls desire to approach the Tower that declined. That, combined with the general decline in the westland population resulted in the marked decline witnessed in the Tower.

I think RJ said that the decline was due to the culling of men (in his blog, I think). But I would have to agree with you when you say that can't be the only reason for the decline. Female channelers can probably give birth to children for a very long time (due to their lifespan). I don't know when men in WoT start becoming fathers, but my guess is that they won't father any more children after they start channeling. RJ also said that the percentage of sparkers is much, much smaller than the percentage of learners. Plus the fact that we have both a genetic and a soul part of why people become channelers. Even 3000 years of culling seems too short as the only explanation for the decline, no matter how that genetic part works. So I agree with your theory of "lack of interbreeding" (and the rest). Maybe a lot of those Aes Sedai live without ever giving birth to any children as well - with the likely exception of the Green Aes Sedai... That might also give rise to a little genetic culling of the ability.

[Luckers]

I think RJ said that the decline was due to the culling of men (in his blog, I think).

 

I just honestly cannot see how that could be. The logic of it makes no sense. Aes Sedai and Kin not having kids has a MUCH greater impact on the gene pool, and yet even they represent less than 3% of the potential female channelers (and thats with us being conservative with population estimates).

 

If you could find the quote it would be helpful. You can't argue with the RJ, but maybe there's something in his exact wording.

 

I don't know when men in WoT start becoming fathers, but my guess is that they won't father any more children after they start channeling.

 

Based on the descriptions of the marriage practices, young. In the Two Rivers it seems clear most men are married by 20. That's supported by the societal type and history. Waiting beyond 25 made it increasingly dangerous for childbirth, and there is a clear moral imperative expresse in the text too.

 

RJ also said that the percentage of sparkers is much, much smaller than the percentage of learners

 

Which adds to the problem, I feel.

 

Plus the fact that we have both a genetic and a soul part of why people become channelers

 

That is true--an element we simply cannot predict. We don't know enough about it.

 

Maybe a lot of those Aes Sedai live without ever giving birth to any children as well - with the likely exception of the Green Aes Sedai... That might also give rise to a little genetic culling of the ability.

 

Even the Greens never have kids. Even more dramatic, neither do the Kin.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you, Luckers. I think you're right when you say that it can't be the only explanation for the decline. Maybe that was what RJ meant also. He specifically mentioned the culling of men. But, hey, it's only fiction, so maybe he didn't want to dig to deep into the whole scientific part of it.  :P

 

From Robert Jordan's blog:

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also.  In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength.  For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool.  They have been very efficient at this.  As a result, the “present day” sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

 

 

 

[kilika]

I totally agree with all Luckers said, but I love how you have thought all this out then say this at the end

 

Effectively, they're kind of wankers, but they're on their way out of that, and they have all the tools they need to achieve it.

 

Genius

:P

 

 

[magnutz]

What a spark we found under this "topic stone." Although I was a bit wary when the first replies came I am now happy to have started it. It is very interesting to read what others thinkabout certain aspects of the books, especially if you have spent the last 14 years reading them (on and off). Thoughts surface that can't be vented anywhere else! I'll read the more lengthy responses later and respond to them. Now I must return to my re-read of TPoD. Splendid yarn, it do be.

 

Edited for typo.

[Sab]

One of the reasons Aes Sedai think they know better then everyone else is they live longer then everybody else.  So they tend to have a different outlook then most people.

 

But just becuase one makes Aes Sedai doesn't mean they aren't idiots or make mistakes.  Being more powerful then the average person does tend to make one feel superior. 

 

 

 

[Yllek]

Reading Luckers' post, it make me think...

 

Aes Sedai don't (or didn't) 'recruit' actively for a long time.  They waited for the girls to show up at their door steps wanting/hoping to learn.  Do you think this was a design of the Black Ajha?  Specifically, if only girls wanting power were showing up for training, that motivation could be manipulated to increase BA numbers and thus reduce non-BA numbers. 

[magnutz]

Reading Luckers' post, it make me think...

 

Aes Sedai don't (or didn't) 'recruit' actively for a long time.  They waited for the girls to show up at their door steps wanting/hoping to learn.  Do you think this was a design of the Black Ajha?  Specifically, if only girls wanting power were showing up for training, that motivation could be manipulated to increase BA numbers and thus reduce non-BA numbers. 

 

Either that or maybe the arrogance that had crept up inside the White Tower stopped it from actively seeking out young women with the ability to learn. The Kin shows how stupid that paricular idea is. The are numerous, have strenght and function without using "White Tower methods." This is one part of "the Aes Sedai are in for a change"-part that I like. Egwene and the others will let everyone who can learn be part of the White Tower, no matter how old. That will boost the number of sisters quickly and perhaps (most likely) wear away some of the inbred arrogance that has set itself into the very walls of the Tower.

 

Interesting ideas to discuss. I'm not sure if it is Black Ajah strategy that led to the Tower losing its strenght in numbers but it is plausible, I guess. Any other thought on this idea?