'Wheel of Time' and other fiction similarities

[Gentled Ben]

OK, so I've seen alot up here about modern day fantasy... what about all the many myths RJ drew upon to create his works?

For example:

Mat=Odin/Lokey in Norse Myth.

Perrin= Thor

Birgitte= Diana/Artemis (Roman/Greek)

besides which there are many relevant stories that seem to be super imposed across WoT...

Like a good example is the Princess Anastasia and Elayne:

Both have red-gold hair, both are spoilesqe princesses from royal families that aren't really that well liked by the populace, both have mother's who "fall" for a typically crazy man (Rasputan and Ravin (sp?)), both have clashing denizens in the populace (White guard, Red Guard seen in EoTW), both have been (or are) presumed dead, as well as their mothers...

That's all I can remember for now, but think about it!

I haven't finished this thread yet, but I wanted to comment on this before I went further. WOW...I would never have made that connection, but that is awesome. I somehow don't think it's what Jordan had in mind, but what a cool similarity all the same!

[CUBAREY]

But Thom isn't a BA wizard

 

Ah, but as Thom himself muses in the Shadow Rising in future Ages he might be remembered as a fire breathing wizard (kind of reminiscent of Merlin the Magician of Camelot and King Arthur fame-- coincidence, I think not).

[Casco]

OK, so I've seen alot up here about modern day fantasy... what about all the many myths RJ drew upon to create his works?

For example:

Mat=Odin/Lokey in Norse Myth.

Perrin= Thor

Birgitte= Diana/Artemis (Roman/Greek)

besides which there are many relevant stories that seem to be super imposed across WoT...

Like a good example is the Princess Anastasia and Elayne:

Both have red-gold hair, both are spoilesqe princesses from royal families that aren't really that well liked by the populace, both have mother's who "fall" for a typically crazy man (Rasputan and Ravin (sp?)), both have clashing denizens in the populace (White guard, Red Guard seen in EoTW), both have been (or are) presumed dead, as well as their mothers...

That's all I can remember for now, but think about it!

I haven't finished this thread yet, but I wanted to comment on this before I went further. WOW...I would never have made that connection, but that is awesome. I somehow don't think it's what Jordan had in mind, but what a cool similarity all the same!

 

The only differents is that Princess Anastasia was not a roal princsess at all. The story she made up was good... but not the truth (DNA have proven that).

[Gentled Ben]

No, the lady who claimed to *be* Anastasia Romanov was proven not to be, but there is no evidence that the real Anastasia was not a blood member of the royal family, and in fact, I think they've found all of the bodies and confirmed their identities at this point--there were no survivors of the execution, including the family doctor. I could be mistaken though; it's something I saw on the History Channel or the like several years ago.

 

And yeah...WoT's a lot like some other fictional stories, too. *smoothly goes back on topic*  :P

[mindtoast]

there are lots and lots of simalarities between Wheel of time and Stephen Donaldsons Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever.

 

In both:

 

At the beginning of time, the Creator sealed the bad guy inside time and he wants to bust out.

a normalish guy realises he is the saviour of world, he has potential for huge magic.

Lots of mini-quests and journeys of discovery trooping around the land.

Both have a Giant race. In both, the giant race are great workers of stone and live longer than people.

Worlds have long, detailed history and geography, including both having a breaking of the world, which was caused by a wise-leader-who-crazy-guy.

A sub-race of dour, really tough guys who fight with their hands and feet who come from a region of the land that is somehow harsh and character building. In the prior age, prior to the wise guy going crazy and breaking the world, these tough guys used to serve the wise-guy-who-went-crazy and somehow 'failed'.

In both series, there is a region of the world / land that is corrupted by Dark Guy / Lord Foul the Despiser, including warped animal and plant life. And in both theres big nasty worms. Donaldsons its a water-dwelling wormy though.

In both the evil guy at some point inhabits a big scary mountain.

Relics from prior ages do cool stuff.

In both the journey starts a village, and the hero is guided by a chick, and there is a bad guy (also from the same village) who tails them (ie padan fain)

Big evil guy has a select gang of stooges with strong evil powers (ie Forsaken  / Ravers)

 

 

In short, I've always felt that Jordan was a enourmous Stephen Donaldson fan. ;)

[mcs0083]

OMG TOASTY

YOUR SO RIGHT :o

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Here's a little something I posted a while ago on Arthurian legends and WOT.

 

On the basis that RJ himself was clearly inspired by the whole Grail Romance genre.

 

Once again, thanks to all those who joined in.

I thought it’d be quite interesting to do a run down on a few of the links between WoT and existing legends.

 

You never know, there might be an interesting little nugget in there that could give us a clue about the plot of AoL.

 

And yes, this has been done before.

 

Rand and Arthur

There are numerous links, some tenuous others less so, between Rands story and the Arthurian legends.

 

The Names

Al Thor – Arthur

While the easiest mythological link to Rands name is the Norse god of thunder, there is a striking similarity between the protagonists name and that of Arthur. Looking a little closer, you can find other links between character names and Arthurian legend.

 

Igerna / Igraine - Tigraine

Arthur’s mother, and a striking similarity between the names.

 

Uther Pendragon

Arthur’s father. No apparent similarities to Tam.

 

However, and I realize this might seem obvious … look at his surname. Again, yes, it’s an obvious point … but, studying Arthurian characters, the links are clear. Perhaps this is the most obvious reference.

 

The Names

Al Thor – Arthur Uther Pendragon

Arthur Pendragon = Artur Paendrag? Uther Pendragon = Luthair Paendrag?

 

Thank you, Mr Ares.

 

Uther Pendragon

- A source of details?

Uthers forces apparently rode under banners showing dragons, some sort of prophetic sign is credited with inspiring the king to take the dragon as his sign.

 

Uhter’s wife, and Arthur’s mother was Igrane or Igraine.

 

--- In WoT, Tigraine is Rands mother.

 

He dies by poisioning.

 

Arthur Pendragon = Artur Paendrag

The use of Arthur’s name suggests a close tie to Hawkwing.

 

Arthur forged an empire consisting of the British Isles, Ireland, parts of Northern France, and possibly Norway.

 

Arthur planned to march on Rome, but returned to Britain upon news of the Mordred-led rebellion.

 

Historians have been unable to verify that Arthur ever existed.

 

Morgase - Morgause

Arthur’s half-sister, daughter of Arthur’s father, Uther Pendragon, and Igraine. She has a sister called Elaine.

 

Mother of Gawain and two other sons.

 

She is killed by one of her sons for sleeping with his enemy, for some reason the son lets his mothers lover go, and the other sons, believing the lover killed Moragause, swear vengeance and hunt him down.

 

- Does that last paragraph ring any bells?

 

Egwene al’Vere = Guinevere

Another Arthurian connection that you forgot to mention is the similarity in name between Guinavere and Egwene al'Vere. 

 

The only real connection I see is that Guinavere was a queen and Egwene is the Amyrllin which is a good as if not better than being queen.  I guess you could also argue that each was part of a rebel faction since Guinavere was the cause the Lancelot's rebellion against Arthur and Egwene is the leader of the rebel Aes Sedi. 

A more tenuous comparison between Guinavere and Egwene Al'Vere, both are originally the love interest of the hero (King Arthur and Rand Al'Thor, respectively) who somewhat innocently fall for a Knight.

Once again, thanks to Cuba and Leopoled B.

 

A little filler:

 

Guinevere was the wife of Arthur, famous from her affair with Lancelot. The affair is brought to Arthur’s attention by Mordred.

 

Guinevere is sentenced to death, and is due to be burnt on a pyre, until Lancelot and his allies rescue her from Arthur’s knights, starting the war.

 

It is noted that Gawain (a knight loyal to Arthur) does attempt to prevent the rescue of Guinevere, despite being ordered to by Arthur. Though, in some versions of the story, Gawain instigates the war and later fights Lancelot, suggesting that his decision to avoid the confrontation over Guinevere was not out of loyalty to Lancelot, but to the queen.

 

Darth Andrea has highlighted the possibility that Gawyn is modeled on Lancelot rather than Gawain, based upon the Lancelot – Guinevere connection:

Perhaps then that would make Gawyn, the Lancelot character. Seeing how he feels about Rand he could very well go into open rebellion against him. Until Morgase comes back out in the open and he see's her with his own eyes he may very well try and bring Rand down or at least try to kill him.

 

Following the end of the war, Lancelot and Guinevere see each other one last time before the widowed queen retires to a convent for the rest of her life.

 

Gawyn – Gawain

He’s often portrayed as the nephew of Arthur, through his sister Morgause. Gawain is killed in battle by the forces of Mordred.

Its been a while since I've read Morte de Arthur, but wasn't Gawain actually killed by Lancelot.  I remember Lancelot and Gwenevere having an affair which lead to civil war between Lancelot and Arthur.  During this conflict Gawain challenged Lancelot 3 or 4 times as was beaten severely each time that last resulting in his death. Since Gawyn is somewhat anti-Rand at the moment it would be cool if Lan ended up have to beat some since into him.  I could just see Gawyn being foolish enough to challenge Lan.

Cheers Leopoled.

 

I didn’t add this part of the myth because it is one version of the story, there are a variety of accounts within the Arthurian legends revolving around Gawain. The main reasons why I left it out being:

 

1. I don’t see Lan as a Lancelot-type. Their characters are different … however, they are the “best of the best”.

2. There doesn’t appear to be a love interest involving Lan that could split the Light apart…. Not involving Gawyn anyway.

 

I’ll add it to the “thoughts” section anyway, I'll also add the Lancelot-Lan connection.

 

Tam – Sir Ector

Ok, no link through the name.

 

However, Sir Ector was Arthur’s adopted father. Merlin spirited the boy away and handed him over to Sir Ector to be raised alongside his son, Sir Kay.

 

Sir Ector was never told of Arthur’s lineage. Sir Ector lived in an area called the “Wild Forest”.

 

Moiraine – Morgan le Fay

 

Another name for Morgan le Fay (among others) is Morgain.

 

She was a powerful enchantress, and became the nemesis of Arthur and Guinevere and is often stated to be the mother of Mordred. Before this occurs, she is represented as a figure with healing powers that she, occasionally, uses to aid Arthur.

 

She also turns up later on the Isle of Avalon and is one of the “Sisters” who heals Arthur after the battle of Caamlan.

 

Elayne – Elaine

Sister of Morgause.

 

Also another name for the Lady of the Lake. The Lady of the Lake fixes a broken Excalibur.

A second Elaine is Sir Galahad's mother, by Sir Launcelot.

Galad – Galahad

One of the three purest knights, he attained the Grail. He was the illegitimate son of an Knight of the Round Table (Lancelot). As a result, he was separated from his father at a young age. He was portrayed as being difficult to relate to due to his spartan, austere lifestyle and code of ethics.

 

- That’s got to be Galad.

 

Thom Mehrillin – Merlin

On Arthurian legends you forgot to mention Merlin the Magician and Thom Merlin the gleeman ( in one of the early books Thom while talking about remembered stories from past ages says that facts become jumbled so that in the future he could be seen as a hero who "breaths fire", etc.).

Thanks to Cuba for the above.

*Shakes his head at his own forgetfulness*

 

Scholars have stated that the most common Merlin myths are based on a travelling troubador called Myrddin Wyllt. He was some form of court bard, or entertainer, before the death of the lord he served.

 

Myrddin "died" three times. Firstly, he was beaten to death, later cast into a river, or the sea, and finally, was impaled.

 

Gareth - Gareth

A knight of the Round Table, usually portrayed as kind and unassuming.

 

Tenuous, I know.

 

Moridin – Mordred / Mordredus

Arthur’s nemesis, surprisingly few details about his life, he was often portrayed as the son of Morgase.

 

It is usually Mordred himself who fatally (?) wounds Arthur.

 

Damodred/Demandred – Mordred

Mordred? Mordred was Arthur's bastard son by his aunt Morgawse, and his slayer.

I immediately linked Moridin to Mordred, but, I guess it works either way.

 

The Lady of the Lake

The spirit-like figure that repairs Excalibur and, possibly, takes Arthur to Avalon.

 

Also known as Elaine and Nyneve and other names.

 

- Elaine is learning about all the various angreal types, and will be involved in the boat scene with Min and Avi.

 

Green Man: Green Knight or Green Man

Both in the Arthurian version, where Sir Gawain encounters the Green Man, and the much earlier Irish myths where Cuchulain encounters a nameless entity that by the description is obviously the Green Man, the story follows the same pattern: hero makes deal with Green Man to show how brave he is, hero cuts Green Man's head off, Green Man reappears three nights later to finish the deal by cutting hero's head off, hero goes honourably to his destiny, Green Man stays his hand at the last conceivable instant and compliments hero on bravery. [Emmet O'Brien]

Personally, I see this as a bit of a stretch.

The ent/treeman/treant/green man myth is a common one, found through many European cultures, and possibly further afield. I don’t see how the Green Man of Arthurian legend is linked to the Green Man / Green Knight of Arthur.

Surely it’s linked to the tree-man legends.

Elyas, Aram, Demandred, Bors: All the same as or similar to names of Arthurian knights.

 

Lan - Lancelot

There is a clear similarity between the names.

Here's an abridged version of some info. provided by Leopoled Boothe:

Gawain was actually killed by Lancelot. 

Lancelot and Gwenevere had an affair which lead to civil war between Lancelot and Arthur. 

During this conflict Gawain challenged Lancelot 3 or 4 times as was beaten severely each time that last resulting in his death.

Cheers Leopoled.

 

Lancelot is famous for the affair he had with Arthur's wife, Guinevere. This affair resulted in a civil war, and as pointed out by Leopoled, the death of Gawain in one version of the tales.

 

Lancelot is also heavily involved in finding the Holy Grail (which is linked by some DM members to angreal via the Holy Grail = Sang Real = Blood of Jesus route.) Lancelot fails to find the grail to his sin committed with Guinevere.

 

Lancelot is also commonly noted to be the father of Galahad.

 

Personally, I don't see more than a superficial link between Lan and Lancelot.

 

They are seen as the best of the best, (warders and knights respectively), so that's a tenuous link.

 

One could suggest that Lan's relationship with Nynaeve (while Moiraine is actually live and kicking) could be a link to Lancelot's adultery. Personally I don't see it, the killer blow (for me) is that Moiriane knew, and kinda approved, of Lan and Nynaeve by the time she went through the door.

 

Maybe, Lan is based on Lancelot maybe. Certainly, the name could well have been inspired. But I think his character is a stretch.

 

Amyrlin: Merlin/Myrddin

Arthur's chief advisor/magician, etc.

 

Places

Camelyn - Camlaan – Camelot

There’s a clear similarity between the names of these three. I can’t recall how the glossaries indicate Camelyn is to be pronounced, but, as a Brit, there’s not too much of difference in the pronunciation of “Camlaan” and “Camelyn” in my opinion.

 

Camlaan is the scene of the climax of the Arthurian legend. Mordreds forces, often Mordred himself, fatally (?) wound Arthur during the battle.

 

Camelot was the city Arthur founded, it became his capital and seat of power.

 

Tar Valon – Avalon

Avalon is the island to which Arthur is taken by the three women on a boat after the battle of Camlaan. There, he is healed and supposedly rests until his return. The island is inhabited by nine sisters.

 

- There’s a clear link to Mins prophecy re. the boat and the women, as would being healed by “sisters”.

 

Excalibur was also supposed to have been forged in Avalon.

 

- Callandor was made by Aes Sedai.

 

Others

Excalibur

The sword in the stone, maybe. There are accounts that the sword and the stone are in fact related to Galahad, however, many versions of the tale equate Excalibur to the sword in the stone. Excalibur had been placed in the stone to be removed by one who was worthy of the kingship of the island and was seen a symbol of that kingship. The sword was supposed to have been forged in Avalon.

One source of the name “Excalibur” is thought to be from ancient Gaelic (Welsh and Irish) mythology. Two famous swords are often mentioned in this respect, Caledfwlch and Caladbolg.

 

The sword is broken at one point and repaired by the Lady of the Lake.

 

Lady of the Lake a.k.a Elaine. – Elayne fixing Callandor?

The Fisher King: a king in the legend of Perceval who had an unhealable wound corresponding to the woes of his land. cf Rand's side wound which is not Healable, the ACOS Header Prophecy, and the "Fisher" figure in Moridin's favorite game.

Again, not truly Aurthurian, but a Grail Romance.

Sa’angreal

Sa'angreal: San Greal (Holy Grail). An alternate spelling, Sang Real, translates to "holy or royal blood"

This is quite a common link. It becomes relevant when the Romance traditions are added in.

The Return of Arthur

The myth of Arthur includes his miraculous return to the world.

 

Arthur was not killed at Camlann, but was transported by three women on a small barge to Avalon where he was healed.

 

When Arthur returns, he will come from Avalon.

 

Arthur’s return is normally associated with the return of the land to its rightful inhabitants and the expulsion of invaders.

 

- The die and live again prophecy would fit in here.

 

************************

 

So that’s my effort at a little light amusement.

 

Obviously, not all of the points above directly fit into WoT, and some of them have been adapted, but there are parallels, as we know.

 

I was interested to see that Gawain’s mother was killed and the brothers (not necessarily including Gawain) believed someone else had killed her.

 

Also, the implication that Galahad was one of the only knights to find the grail was interesting.

 

So......

 

My new thoughts (and yes, I know they aren’t likely to happen as I write them out):

 

1. The site of the climatic battle between Moridin and Rand will be at Camelyn. Moridin will “kill” Rand.

 

2. Rand will recover in Tar Valon.

 

3. Galad will find something important something to do with an angreal of some sort.

 

4. Gawyn will die at the hands of Moridin, or at least take a good beating.

 

5.      OR ....

Since Gawyn is somewhat anti-Rand at the moment it would be cool if Lan ended up have to beat some sense into him.  I could just see Gawyn being foolish enough to challenge Lan.

This is in reference to Lan being linked to Lancelot.

 

Cheers Leopoled.

 

6. Callandor will break and will be fixed by Elayne. Alternatively, and probably more likely, Elayne will remove the buffer flaw from Callandor.

 

Any thoughts on the above?

 

********

EDITS/ADDITIONS

 

Merlin - Thom

Lan - Lancelot

Gawain and Lancelot connection.

Gawain theory

"Fixing" of Callandor

Morgan le Fay - Moiraine

Tam - Sir Ector

02/12/08 – Linux Mafia Sources

[mb]

Some "Wheel of Time" and Narnia similarities::

-Time correlation between Telaranrhiod and Randland is not a constant; time correlation between Narnia and real world is not a constant.

-Susan's Horn & Horn of Valere, both bring help.

-The Silver Chair are kind similar to chair like terangreal, each has magic-like effects on people.

-Ogier kind of similar to centaurs; both are filled with knowledge and have kind of similar temperaments.

Time correlation thing kind of similar to also vacuole.  Another similarity in the locations: the arriving there is through magic (or through magic like effects).

 

Other similarities to Narnia:

-Lucy's cordial slightly similar to Healing; both make the patients feel well, but neither restore broken off parts (to my knowledge).

-Last book in both series contain 'Last Battle'.

 

More specific Silver Chair similarities::

-Chrystal Throne: both seat a ruler

-Chair of Remorse: both affect the person seating in it

-Binding Chair: seemingly similar form & function

 

[zanotam]

I'm going to have to say that comparing this to most fantasy series isn't very fair, you'd be hard pressed to find one series that's as well fleshed out as some of the individual books in this series are. A lot of the fantasy similarities have to do with just story telling in general, and the start of the series, EotW. I mean there ARE similarities, but even someone with a good eye for them is going to be stretching things a lot, RJ seems to have purposefully tried to mix and blend common elements and logical ideas together, but in such a way as to make them seem very believable and original.

[mb]

I'm going to have to say that comparing this to most fantasy series isn't very fair, you'd be hard pressed to find one series that's as well fleshed out as some of the individual books in this series are.

This thread is not limited to just fantasy, but to all types of fiction.

 

The reason for mostly fantasy in this thread might be that fantasy might be the most easy to compare this series to.

 

[mb]

Song of Ice and Fire similarities

Night's Watch & Maesters::

-Those two & Aes Sedia receive people from all over the main land.

-Aes Sedia & Ashamen, each are one gender organizations.

-Maesters, Aes Sedia, Ashamen; each have 3 ranks and each train in some degree of magic.

-Ashamen, each are male organizations.

-Night's Watch and Ashamen, both wear black.

-Aes Sedia, each swear oaths.

Other similarities::

-Nations (and some people) have sigils in both series.

-House Targaryen and Arthur Hawking, both ruled the main land for some time.

-Shaidar Haran and title of Hand, both could be considered a second in command.  (Shaidar Haran to Dark One; Hand to a king/queen)

-Both series have poisons.

-Wolves slightly related to dreams (including future-predicting dreams) in both series.

-Myrddraal somewhat similar to Others (in appearance).

sigil similarities::

-Andor and House Lannister, both sigils is a lion

-Cairhien/Whitecloaks and House Martel, each signal contains sun

-Tear and House Arryn, both sigils contains moon

-Saldaea and House Tully, both sigils contain fish

-Arafel and House Tyrell, both sigils contain rose

character similarities::

-Perrin/Elyas and Bran, each have an ability related to wolves

-Birgitte and Brienne, both are female warriors

-Elayne and Catelyn, both have/had a female warrior serving them

 

Circle series similarities::

Telaranrhiod similarities:

-Visiting both worlds somewhat similar to enter Telaranrhiod through sleep (or through terangreal); body still remains in other world

-wounds received in one world appear in the other world

-healing in one world supposedly transfers to the other

-things known from one world are still known in the other

other similarities:

-Both series have food/plants that have effects on people

-forkroot and rhambutan, both cause dreamless sleep

 

[Crael123]

there are lots and lots of simalarities between Wheel of time and Stephen Donaldsons Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever.

 

In both:

 

At the beginning of time, the Creator sealed the bad guy inside time and he wants to bust out.

a normalish guy realises he is the saviour of world, he has potential for huge magic.

Lots of mini-quests and journeys of discovery trooping around the land.

Both have a Giant race. In both, the giant race are great workers of stone and live longer than people.

Worlds have long, detailed history and geography, including both having a breaking of the world, which was caused by a wise-leader-who-crazy-guy.

A sub-race of dour, really tough guys who fight with their hands and feet who come from a region of the land that is somehow harsh and character building. In the prior age, prior to the wise guy going crazy and breaking the world, these tough guys used to serve the wise-guy-who-went-crazy and somehow 'failed'.

In both series, there is a region of the world / land that is corrupted by Dark Guy / Lord Foul the Despiser, including warped animal and plant life. And in both theres big nasty worms. Donaldsons its a water-dwelling wormy though.

In both the evil guy at some point inhabits a big scary mountain.

Relics from prior ages do cool stuff.

In both the journey starts a village, and the hero is guided by a chick, and there is a bad guy (also from the same village) who tails them (ie padan fain)

Big evil guy has a select gang of stooges with strong evil powers (ie Forsaken  / Ravers)

 

 

In short, I've always felt that Jordan was a enourmous Stephen Donaldson fan. ;)

 

1) creator sealed foul IN his creation

 

2)covenant wasn't a normalish guy, he was a physico with leprosy and a solid antihero.

 

3)when were there worms in WoT

 

aside from that i agree with what you said. I loooved the first series and the first book of the second one. i havnt been able to finish them cuz my mom went ripshit when she found out the books had a rape scene... graphic one at that. and i cant drive so i cant get it myself. leave me alone i am not even 16 yet.  :'( 

[alligator]

There are giant worms in the Blight that the fellowship encounters on their trip to the Eye of the World.

[mb]

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,37363.msg1392022.html#msg1392022

That post was originally two posts.  Copied the content of the other post into it then removed other post.

 

[Al Thor93]

Eragon is a young adult who must accept the responsibility of the Dragon riders.

 

Rand is a young adult who must accept the responsibility of the Dragon Reborn.

 

 

[mb]

awhile ago read Camulod chronicles; I think several years ago.  borrowed from a relative and afterward returned.

 

similarities between Plubius Varrus and Perrin Aybara::

-both are/were blacksmiths.

-both made a sort-of magical weapon.

-2 women romantically interested with both;  one married to respective player, other kind of a tempter.

-both became leaders.

-both killed people.

 

edit::  not sure if Plubius Varrus is spelled correctly.

Edited May 26, 2018 by mb

[TheSociopath]

9 hours ago, mb said:

 

-both killed people.

 

a riveting similarity.

 

I haven't read the other series, so I guess I can't comment on it, really.

[mb]

another character parallel to Camulod series::

Galad and Ambrose.

-both had/have 2 sets of half-siblings (Galad, one through mother and two through father; Ambrose, one through either parent)

-at least one half-sibling having magic (Galad, 2 of his 3; Ambrose, just 1)

-at least one half-sibling being a leader (Galad, all 3; Ambrose, just 1)

-both gaining a leadership role

 

by the way, not sure if "Ambrose" was how the series spelled his name.