Full circle vs. coeden kal.

[Fryn]

A single male can't use the choeden kal. It takes a male and female with both access keys. It is only called the CK when both are used at once.

 

You have no evidence of that, you only have the absence of mentions of the singular as Choedan Kal. Since that reality is entirely situational, and the situations in which we have seen mention of the Choedan Kal by those who know something about them (the forsaken and Rand) have directly involved specific incidents involving both, one can draw no conclusions.

 

I can go with it being just a theory. There have been ample opportunities however for forsaken to use the term CK when referencing a single statue Sa'angrel however and they haven't. Remember Lanfear told Rand that the access key he had linked to a male sa'angrel, which would of been a good opportunity. The male half will of course get used in AMoL which will answer it one way or the other.

 

That said I would guess the 72 would be > the single channeler with their access key.

 

Unlikely. It's directly stated that the entire Tower could not together channel enough of the Power that was used by the female Choedan Kal at the Cleansing. Now, that was personal opinion of shocked individuals and not very trust worthy--but even with that shock only allows for so much--blurring between 72 and 1,000 is not within that range--especially not when we know that the female Choedan Kal wasn't even used to its full capacity. It's directly stated that by far more saidin was channeled than saidar.

 

Ultimately no, a full circle would not be strong enough to stand against the Choedan Kal--singular or plural.

 

Completely agree I wrote this before rereading the fight scene and was going off of other comments on these boards

 

Based on Cadsuanes comments about the power running through Nyvaeve I doubt it. Cad is strong enough to use the female half, but not as strong in the power as Nyv. There are very few that strong enough to use the access keys. Verin even mentions that Logain isn't strong enough in TGH.

 

Verin actually states that Logain wouldn't be strong enough to directly use the Choedan Kal--which no living being is. In the same breath she says that Moiraine, Elaida, Lelaine, Romanda, Siuan, Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve could do so--which is completely untrue. And implies, in the same flow, that those women are stronger than Logain, which again, none of them are.

 

Verin was entirely, completely and utterly wrong in every single thing she said in that moment--excepting of course that Logain couldn't directly use the Choedan Kal.

 

Surely Verin would of read something for her to have of said something like this though =p. I agree it does read kind of odd. Either that or she knew that the dragon would end up using the CK; this is Verin after all. Just a small note that Verin never uses the words Choedan Kal. However I did notice that in the segment Verin does use the term I think a lot which basically means she can say whatever she wants >< tricky Verin.

 

You have Cads, elza mentioninging it is more power than all of teh tower could muster, and you have forsaken wishing they could feel it and that a 1000th part would be enough to be more than they have ever held.

 

Thats not entirely true--the Forsaken are on average roughly double the strength of the average Aes Sedai. So 500th.

 

Actually it is true Modg said she wished she could feel 1000th part of it

 

That said when using it singly without the female one (note based on Verins comments using both at once increases the power of the CK 10 times)

 

Verin was clearly very uninformed about the Choedan Kal. As for the comment your referenced;- " a man and a woman working together were always ten times as strong as they were apart."

 

This is untrue. We know that male/female circles causes each participant to include more strength than a female only circle--but it is still not greater than the sum of its parts. Certaily not ten times greater.

 

Verin was at best being hyperbolic, and at worst she was flat out wrong. It makes sense, its been near to 4,000 years since the age of Legends, and Aes Sedai do tend to idolize that period.

 

Fair enough. I guess I should of also realised this was during a part of the series where everything with the power wasn't fleshed out.

 

For example in Rand and Asmo's duel if they held as much power as Rand held Saidin during the cleansing then you would of expected all the male forsaken to jump there and finish Rand off.

 

There has been considerable discussion about that. The overall consensus was that the protections on Rhuidean concealed the power use--Lanfear even states when she arrives that the defences are still there, if fading.

 

In ay case we know as fact that it wasn't because Asmodean and Rand were using less of the power then at the cleansing.

 

It seems a little too convienent. In the fight Rand was thinking about the enviroment and seemed limited to the area around Rhuidean. However quotes from Demandred put the power level as enough to destroy continents. The protection kept you from entering in TAR, but I find it hard to believe that it would hide the power use of those inside. I do guess its plausible though. I guess the protection could of stopped Rand/Asmo from affecting the area outside the protection, but it did seem like Rand was using a lot more power at the cleansing. I know Rand used more Saidar than saidin, but the saidin use itself seemed more than the fight with Asmo. Maybe it was just because the cleansing took so much longer that it appeared Rand was using more. But as you said that was another discussion

 

It brings up an interesting point as well. A mixture of 72 male and females might be able to attain a power level greater than the sum of the parts.

 

 

No, it wouldn't, RJ directly commented on that. It increases the percentage each channeler gives to the link--the more even the numbers between men and women, the more each contributes--but it still doesn't reach 100% of each, much less greater.

 

Kind of a shame really. It would of given the light an edge in TG

 

I have posted enough quotes to show they were developed as a pair to be used in unison. It is not a stretch to believe it would have a different name when used together or apart.

 

Yet you have no basis to suggest such--indeed, we don't even know what Choedan Kal means, nor do we understand the Old Tongue well enough to make comments about when and if pluralisation should be used. Maybe one was named bob, and the other claire, and together they were Mr and Mrs Choedan Kal, but you can hardly state it as fact--or, for that matter honestly suggest it. No offence but there isn't anything in your quotes that suggest a different nomenclature based on gender, its all generis, gender nuetral, plural nuetral language.

 

Fair enough, but as I have shown there are no references to CK when used to refer to a single giant Sa'angrel. I'm fine with it just being a theory, especially with one most likely being used in AMoL. Though I do hope it was in a section that RJ had already written.

 

After all they have different names for sa'angrel and angrel where the only difference is the extra power that can be added.

 

Which is a functional difference. The Choedan Kal do exactly the same thing, angreal and sa'agreal do not. Beyond which angreal and sa'angreal are refered to as such, differentiated. The Choedan Kal never are.

 

Well the difference between using one vs two is still a 100% increase in power (Verin threw me off in making me think it was a larger increase), and when we are talking about the power levels of the giant sa'angrel that is a very significant increase. It is still reasonable to have a theory that they are called something different when used as a whole because they were developed to be a weapon.

 

I have two pieces of an apple (note I do not use apples here even though that is the plural form of apple), they are both tasty when eaten seperately, but they are still a part of a single apple.

 

So you have knowledge of how pluralism is used in the Old Tongue? What about in French? I'm failing french, lol, i could use the help. And I've been considering taking up  Vietnamese, do you know the rules of pluarals in Vietnamese--i hear they are especially difficult, it being a tonal language and all.

 

The forsaken weren't talking in Old tongue however. This isn't like tolkein where you see elves speaking a different language. If it was you might have a point. Even if they were talking in old tongue it was translated by the best translater (RJ) so using english to interpret the text should be good enough.

 

[Luckers]

I can go with it being just a theory. There have been ample opportunities however for forsaken to use the term CK when referencing a single statue Sa'angrel however and they haven't. Remember Lanfear told Rand that the access key he had linked to a male sa'angrel, which would of been a good opportunity. The male half will of course get used in AMoL which will answer it one way or the other.

 

Perhaps, though the subjective use of names is something that i dont think you can rest your hat on. Beyond which, consider the way they speak--nothing requires the use of seperate terms, the same terms used--sa'angeal, access key--are all quite apt, and non specific to either the male or female Choedan Kal.

 

Effectively, nothing suggests it. All you have is that none of them used the words choedan kal--yet in their absense they used perfectly normal words to describe such things--indeed, the incident you raise, of Lanfear--why would she have used the phrase Choedan Kal, Rand wouldn't have known what it meant. Functionally, the best description is sa'angreal. Which is what she used it.

 

Surely Verin would of read something for her to have of said something like this though =p. I agree it does read kind of odd. Either that or she knew that the dragon would end up using the CK; this is Verin after all. Just a small note that Verin never uses the words Choedan Kal. However I did notice that in the segment Verin does use the term I think a lot which basically means she can say whatever she wants >< tricky Verin.

 

Well, firstly i see it as being far more likely that it results from Aes Sedai assumption. They don't understand sa'angreal, even if they use them, and thus have no basis to understand that the Choedan Kal are different.

 

Either way, Verin was wrong. And we know she is bound by the Oath against lying (in spite of her lie--really, that had better get worked out).

 

By the way, apparently no third aer knew the phrase 'Choedan Kal'. Rand got it from Lews Therin--directly stated. But no one else knows of them.

 

Actually it is true Modg said she wished she could feel 1000th part of it

 

Really? I thought you were referring of the claim about all the Aes Sedai not being able to channel it. My bad. Where was Mog's comment?

 

Fair enough. I guess I should of also realised this was during a part of the series where everything with the power wasn't fleshed out.

 

Lol, thats also true, though i didn't want to say it. :)

 

It seems a little too convienent. In the fight Rand was thinking about the enviroment and seemed limited to the area around Rhuidean. However quotes from Demandred put the power level as enough to destroy continents. The protection kept you from entering in TAR, but I find it hard to believe that it would hide the power use of those inside. I do guess its plausible though. I guess the protection could of stopped Rand/Asmo from affecting the area outside the protection, but it did seem like Rand was using a lot more power at the cleansing. I know Rand used more Saidar than saidin, but the saidin use itself seemed more than the fight with Asmo. Maybe it was just because the cleansing took so much longer that it appeared Rand was using more. But as you said that was another discussion

 

No, I do agree the scene is problematic. Rand, admittedly, would have been channeling one fourth the power as at the cleansing. (using only one Choedan Kal, and sharing it) yet even so Asmodean was channeling the other half--so one would think the overall feel would have been big.

 

That being said we have no other explanation--the Verin thing doesn't pan out, the Power was well and truly developed by then.

 

And as for the protection, it did seem to do more than protect from incursions in the dream. Lanfear even seemed impressed--and she seems hard to impress by the third age.

 

Fair enough, but as I have shown there are no references to CK when used to refer to a single giant Sa'angrel. I'm fine with it just being a theory, especially with one most likely being used in AMoL. Though I do hope it was in a section that RJ had already written.

 

Fair enough

 

The forsaken weren't talking in Old tongue however. This isn't like tolkein where you see elves speaking a different language. If it was you might have a point. Even if they were talking in old tongue it was translated by the best translater (RJ) so using english to interpret the text should be good enough.

 

Except Choedan Kal wasn't translated. You have no idea the implication or necessary pluralisation that should be involved in speaking of them--which is the point. This is based in another language, making points about the implied lack of english grammar is difficult--and i dont say that to be silly, i know RJ wrote in english, with the mysticism of claiming it was translated. I'm not making a pointless 'but, but it was translated'....

 

But i am pointing out that RJ, whilst not Tolkien, did develop an entire language for the old tongue, including grammer and syntax--quite detailed ones, actually. A linguist i knew studied it, and someone has placed an Old tongue Dictionary you can find through google that contains fairly detailed commentary on it.

 

Effectively--RJ made rules for this language that are different to english. Choedan Kal is in this language. Thus i dont think we can make assumptions about its exact grammatical existence.

 

 

[Fryn]

Effectively, nothing suggests it. All you have is that none of them used the words choedan kal--yet in their absense they used perfectly normal words to describe such things--indeed, the incident you raise, of Lanfear--why would she have used the phrase Choedan Kal, Rand wouldn't have known what it meant. Functionally, the best description is sa'angreal. Which is what she used it.

 

It's possible. It could also be possible that RJ hadn't given it a name at this point. However it was mentioned several times in the earlier books and was Lanfears plan to use Rand. It did seem to be one of the key points in the story and it does seem fishy that it wasn't named earlier. If it ends up being called CK singularly in AMoL, I will likely put it down to not being fully fleshed out in the earlier books and having that throw me off.

 

Surely Verin would of read something for her to have of said something like this though =p. I agree it does read kind of odd. Either that or she knew that the dragon would end up using the CK; this is Verin after all. Just a small note that Verin never uses the words Choedan Kal. However I did notice that in the segment Verin does use the term I think a lot which basically means she can say whatever she wants >< tricky Verin.

 

Well, firstly i see it as being far more likely that it results from Aes Sedai assumption. They don't understand sa'angreal, even if they use them, and thus have no basis to understand that the Choedan Kal are different.

 

Either way, Verin was wrong. And we know she is bound by the Oath against lying (in spite of her lie--really, that had better get worked out).

 

By the way, apparently no third aer knew the phrase 'Choedan Kal'. Rand got it from Lews Therin--directly stated. But no one else knows of them.

 

Ya it is kind of odd that the term never made it over, when the horn and others did (the horn was only a myth in the age of legends and people still know its name. Considering it is not named in the story about the attack on the bore, I am actually leaning towards it just wasn't named until later in the series and RJ found a plausible way to hide the fact).

 

I have been looking at Verin lately and one thing I notice is she uses the wording I think an awful lot. I am pretty sure she has found a way to actually lie to people. There are other cases where it is shown she has done more than just the normal AS play on words (saying Morraine sent her, when she was setting compulsion weaves, etc).

I also get the feeling she compelled both Suian and Morraine at some point. The reason I mention this is the scene where Verin lets Morraine/Suian know that she knows about the dragon, Morraine rationalizes that Verin is only interested in the knowledge of it. Yet later when Verin is planting the compulsion weaves she says that her compulsion would only work if her targets rationalized what she wanted them to do. In any case that scene puts up a lot of question marks for me.

 

Actually it is true Modg said she wished she could feel 1000th part of it

 

Really? I thought you were referring of the claim about all the Aes Sedai not being able to channel it. My bad. Where was Mog's comment?

 

The cleansing scene. Just after Cydane thinking she would see Rand dead. "...even so the key shone so brightly in Moghedien's head that she hungered for just a sip at that immense flow of saidar. To hold so much, the thousandth part of so much, would be ecstasy."

 

 

No, I do agree the scene is problematic. Rand, admittedly, would have been channeling one fourth the power as at the cleansing. (using only one Choedan Kal, and sharing it) yet even so Asmodean was channeling the other half--so one would think the overall feel would have been big.

 

Its actually worse than that. Even though when reading that scene it appeared as though Rand was using more saidin than he did against Asmo, it was stated that he used less and wasn't using all of teh saidin he could. He was mearly siphoning it a little at a time and once siphoned he stopped using that part of saidin. He however held as much saidar as possible. This is why only the female sa'angrel was destroyed. I can't remember exactly where that came from, but I know it was a question to RJ about why the female part was destroyed

 

 

The forsaken weren't talking in Old tongue however. This isn't like tolkein where you see elves speaking a different language. If it was you might have a point. Even if they were talking in old tongue it was translated by the best translater (RJ) so using english to interpret the text should be good enough.

 

Except Choedan Kal wasn't translated. You have no idea the implication or necessary pluralisation that should be involved in speaking of them--which is the point. This is based in another language, making points about the implied lack of english grammar is difficult--and i dont say that to be silly, i know RJ wrote in english, with the mysticism of claiming it was translated. I'm not making a pointless 'but, but it was translated'....

 

But i am pointing out that RJ, whilst not Tolkien, did develop an entire language for the old tongue, including grammer and syntax--quite detailed ones, actually. A linguist i knew studied it, and someone has placed an Old tongue Dictionary you can find through google that contains fairly detailed commentary on it.

 

Effectively--RJ made rules for this language that are different to english. Choedan Kal is in this language. Thus i dont think we can make assumptions about its exact grammatical existence.

 

Interesting point. I just assumed it was a name. However Chodean Kal is indead translated. If you notice it is never italisized in the books and every single word that is left in the old tongue is, so no need to worry about odd Old Tongue rules with the CK =). You have a point with other old tongue words and they do indeed pluralize rather oddly.

[Luckers]

It's possible. It could also be possible that RJ hadn't given it a name at this point. However it was mentioned several times in the earlier books and was Lanfears plan to use Rand. It did seem to be one of the key points in the story and it does seem fishy that it wasn't named earlier. If it ends up being called CK singularly in AMoL, I will likely put it down to not being fully fleshed out in the earlier books and having that throw me off.

 

It's not implausible, we know RJ fleshed out several things later on in the story.

 

But, as a function of loyalty we usually try to explain such things away, and only accept them to be a mistake when we can't--in this there is a very logical reason that the name is not mentioned--specifically it means absolutely nothing to no one invloved. Lanfear was speaking to a farmer--getting technical would have been stupid and counter-productive.

 

The cleansing scene. Just after Cydane thinking she would see Rand dead. "...even so the key shone so brightly in Moghedien's head that she hungered for just a sip at that immense flow of saidar. To hold so much, the thousandth part of so much, would be ecstasy."

 

Ah... it's a bit subjective, but ill buy it.

 

thanks for the quote tho, i totally missed that.

 

Its actually worse than that. Even though when reading that scene it appeared as though Rand was using more saidin than he did against Asmo, it was stated that he used less and wasn't using all of teh saidin he could. He was mearly siphoning it a little at a time and once siphoned he stopped using that part of saidin. He however held as much saidar as possible. This is why only the female sa'angrel was destroyed. I can't remember exactly where that came from, but I know it was a question to RJ about why the female part was destroyed

 

Thats actually incorrect. We know as a fact that by far less saidar was used than saidin--its stated by Akkarin in CoT. Your comments about him siphoning it seem inaccurate with his discriptions of his desperate pulling upon saidin too. And RJ did not state anything like that--indeed the female Choedan Kal was destroyed because of the strain of containing saidin. It was the use it was put too, not the strength used, that destroyed it.

 

Interesting point. I just assumed it was a name. However Chodean Kal is indead translated. If you notice it is never italisized in the books and every single word that is left in the old tongue is, so no need to worry about odd Old Tongue rules with the CK =). You have a point with other old tongue words and they do indeed pluralize rather oddly.

 

You mean like Aes Sedai? Gaidin? Atha'an Miere? Aiel? Gai'shain? Aesdaishar? Mandarb? Akkein? All of the Forsaken's names?

 

Thats just off the top of my head. And yes, the top of my head is a scary place to be.

[Fryn]

It's possible. It could also be possible that RJ hadn't given it a name at this point. However it was mentioned several times in the earlier books and was Lanfears plan to use Rand. It did seem to be one of the key points in the story and it does seem fishy that it wasn't named earlier. If it ends up being called CK singularly in AMoL, I will likely put it down to not being fully fleshed out in the earlier books and having that throw me off.

 

It's not implausible, we know RJ fleshed out several things later on in the story.

 

But, as a function of loyalty we usually try to explain such things away, and only accept them to be a mistake when we can't--in this there is a very logical reason that the name is not mentioned--specifically it means absolutely nothing to no one invloved. Lanfear was speaking to a farmer--getting technical would have been stupid and counter-productive.

 

RJ hid it really well in most of the cases, so ya I tend to overlook it. It just tends to get me into trouble with theories like these =). At the very least it is always plausible because you can assume characters don't always tell the truth or speak out of ignorance. It makes it more realistic really... though annoying when trying to formulate theories based on the text. The reason i mention it is the CK was mentioned in the strike at SG however it was not named.

 

Its actually worse than that. Even though when reading that scene it appeared as though Rand was using more saidin than he did against Asmo, it was stated that he used less and wasn't using all of the saidin he could. He was mearly siphoning it a little at a time and once siphoned he stopped using that part of saidin. He however held as much saidar as possible. This is why only the female sa'angrel was destroyed. I can't remember exactly where that came from, but I know it was a question to RJ about why the female part was destroyed

 

Thats actually incorrect. We know as a fact that by far less saidar was used than saidin--its stated by Akkarin in CoT. Your comments about him siphoning it seem inaccurate with his discriptions of his desperate pulling upon saidin too. And RJ did not state anything like that--indeed the female Choedan Kal was destroyed because of the strain of containing saidin. It was the use it was put too, not the strength used, that destroyed it.

 

I guess you are right. I thought RJ had posted why the female access key melted instead of the male, but I can't find it, so it must of just been a discussion on some board. From reading it though it appeared that Rand stopped using the portions of saidin that he had cleansed, and was constantly changing which pieces he was using. I guess he was still using more saidin, but the description of how he used it threw me

 

Interesting point. I just assumed it was a name. However Chodean Kal is indead translated. If you notice it is never italisized in the books and every single word that is left in the old tongue is, so no need to worry about odd Old Tongue rules with the CK =). You have a point with other old tongue words and they do indeed pluralize rather oddly.

 

You mean like Aes Sedai? Gaidin? Atha'an Miere? Aiel? Gai'shain? Aesdaishar? Mandarb? Akkein? All of the Forsaken's names?

 

Thats just off the top of my head. And yes, the top of my head is a scary place to be.

 

Hmm you are right.. however that just makes me wonder why some are italisized and some aren't... it just doesn't make much sense, unless there is a hidden meaning to the italisized words. Callandor is italisized as well; so the CK is the only item linked to the power that wasn't italisized that I can recall.

[Luckers]

RJ hid it really well in most of the cases, so ya I tend to overlook it. It just tends to get me into trouble with theories like these =). At the very least it is always plausible because you can assume characters don't always tell the truth or speak out of ignorance. It makes it more realistic really... though annoying when trying to formulate theories based on the text. The reason i mention it is the CK was mentioned in the strike at SG however it was not named.

 

Frankly, i dont have much of a problem with this specific reality--i find it very believable that they didn't refer to it as the Choadan Kal for the stated reason. Still, RJ has made this mistake in the past.

 

I guess you are right. I thought RJ had posted why the female access key melted instead of the male, but I can't find it, so it must of just been a discussion on some board. From reading it though it appeared that Rand stopped using the portions of saidin that he had cleansed, and was constantly changing which pieces he was using. I guess he was still using more saidin, but the description of how he used it threw me

 

The desrciption never describes alternation in use--though that perhaps makes some degree of sense.

 

Hmm you are right.. however that just makes me wonder why some are italisized and some aren't... it just doesn't make much sense, unless there is a hidden meaning to the italisized words. Callandor is italisized as well; so the CK is the only item linked to the power that wasn't italisized that I can recall.

 

Italics seem to be used for generic references to objects of the Age of Legends, or things that have been named specifically in the old tongue.

 

damane and sul'dam--named so specifically to make a point. Athan'Miere on the other hand exist as a reality that are simply named as such.

[Dr Pepper]

Well I thought it was pretty obvious that the CK  were stronger than a full circle  ??? Not sure if anyones said this yet (as i havnt read the replies) but if a full circle was the stronger than the CK then why would they bother creating them in AOL if they could just go attack the DO with a swarm of cirles?

 

It's simple. The CK are stronger. If they wern't then the light would never have thought of them as being the last and only chance to win the war against the shadow.

[Thor]

If a circle could match the power of Choeden Kal why would they even need to spend so much time building it in the War?  Unless you expect me to believe they couldn't get enough channelers together to form a perfect circle?

 

edit:

oh lol, just read the reply above mine :p

 

but then again, the two plans that LTT had were either to use the Choeden Kal or a full circle (the latter was foiled when the females pulled out) to make a final assault.

Might be pretty close I suppose, since every channeler in a full circle can still use (sa) angreal as well.

[Swigaro]

Just because one plan used the CK and the other a full circle doesn't mean that they required the same power output.  The CK plan was to shield SG with an impenatrable barrier (I assume the barrier would need to be impenatrable) until a better idea could be found.  The full circle plan was meant to be a complete fix, not a delaying tactic.  Each presented very different solutions to the same basic problem. 

[Thor]

If we go by what you say, then the full circle would have to be stronger than Choeden Kal.

 

But nowhere did I read anything about the full circle being a complete fix and the Choeden Kal just being a delay tactic.

[Luckers]

I agree--Swigaro, its never cited or implied that a full circle would have been an effective way of winning the war, or dealing with the Dark One. Indeed we know there were many hundreds of thousands of channelers in play during the War of the Shadow--many, many circles of 72 could have been formed, and even the risk of the most powerful forming such a circle never created the sort of panic the Choedan Kal did.

[Swigaro]

As I understood it, LTT's original plan was to do exactly what he ended up doing in the Strike at Shayol Guhl, except to use a full circle of 72 Aes Sedai to set the seals.  I am not suggesting that this would have been more effective than the CK plan, or even what LTT ended up doing.  I intended to suggest, unclearly, exactly what you state that a full circle of 72 was not uncommon, or in any way dangerous and thus significantly less powerfull than the CK.

 

If we go by what you say, then the full circle would have to be stronger than Choeden Kal.

 

But nowhere did I read anything about the full circle being a complete fix and the Choeden Kal just being a delay tactic.

 

 

Again, I may be mistaken, but as I recall from the BWB, this is specificly stated in The Strike at Shayol Guhl.  Both plans were to eliminate the influence of the Dark One, thus giving the forces of the light a chance to win the war.  I am far from my texts at the moment, but will provide quotes to support this when I get home.  I assumed that it would take a sigificantly greater ammount of energy to completely shield an area in a sustained mannor for an indeterminant ammount of time than to set the seals and be done with it (as individual male Aes Sedai were able to do just this successfully, though with dire consiquesnces).  IMO, neither of the original plans would have worked.  I suspect that the presence of female channelers would have allowed the DO to taint both halves of the source.  Further, as the female access key and CK both were fried at the cleansing (and we saw another, broken access key in Tanchico), I have doubts that it would have been able to withstand the drain of maintaining the shield.  Granted, the CK was used at a very high level for an uncharacteristic purpose, regardless, if they were relying on it, I think they may have been dissapointed.

 

Edit:  Apologies, LTT never intended to use a full circle of 72.  Instead he wanted to use a mixed circle of 13.

 

One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force -- so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day -- a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul , the one place on earth where what has been called "a thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more.

 

This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.

 

Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal. This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would. Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances. Against that was the certainty, according to the plan's supporters, that used together they would provide sufficient Power to drive the Shadow's forces back, to defeat them completely and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe method of dealing with the Bore was assured.

 

 

Above is a quote from TSaSG outlining both plans.  LTT's was to seal the bore and be done with it.  The CK plan was to throw back the forces of the shadow, then baricade the Bore until they could figure out what to do with it.

[Mr Ares]

Not true they reference the access keys as plural and the only time the CK is referenced it is used in the singular.

Not so. The Choedan Kal are clearly referred to as them, plural, and one of each, again, more than one. It is quite clear in those quotes you provided and I quoted.

 

For the examples you wanted.

"You recall the Choedan Kal, I suppose... Lews Therin has two of the access keys, one for each. And he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair. He plans to use the Choedan Kal for his deed."

 

The first part is a reference to the CK this is singular. Next it references the access keys (plural); this of course means that the next time any substitution word like them will refer to the access keys because it was the last noun used. The next part he, he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair, refers to the access keys because this was the last pair and noun referenced previously. Lastly it goes back to the CK as a singular.

There is nothing to suggest the first reference is singular. It could have been singular or plural. However, it then says one for each. There must be two there for it to be referred to in this way. There are two Choedan Kal, and Rand has an AK for each CK. CK is not used as singular. After the reference to one of each, which is clearly referring to the CK rather than the AK, it then goes back to referencing the Keys? That quote proves that Choedan Kal is a term that can be used as a plural. Because there are two of them. She references the CK, then she says one AK for each, and this is supposed to be referring to something other than the CK? Not one for each statue, or each piece, or each half, just each. So, one for each of them. What makes you think the first reference is singular rather than plural?

 

Two pieces of a weapon. Much like a trigger and a barrel are part of a gun. Yet you don't call those guns on their own.

But that analogy doesn't work. You can't use a gun without a trigger, or a trigger without a gun. But you can use one Choedan Kal without the other - we see Rand do so. However, you cannot use a CK without an AK, nor an AK without a CK. The Key is the trigger, the statue the gun. Either without the other is pretty much unusable. Both together works very well. So your analogy works well for one statue and a Key for it, but not for one statue being the trigger and the other being the barrel.

 

I have already posted above that that pair is referencing the access keys because that was the last pair and noun used in the dialogue.

And the each?

 

The forsaken weren't talking in Old tongue however.

A little pedantic, maybe, but the Chosen always use Old Tongue amongst themselves. So yes, they were.