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Full circle vs. coeden kal.


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The strongest circle possible would be one with 35 men and 37 women, I will say 35 Asham'an and 37 Aes Sedai to prevent the "How strong is each one?" question. The choeden kal is the strongest S'angreal ever made, now suppose a Ashaman was wielding the choden kal and 72 channelers rose up to stop him, who would win?

 

The strongest link possible, or the psycho Choeden Kal wielding renegade.

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A single male can't use the choeden kal. It takes a male and female with both access keys. It is only called the CK when both are used at once. That said I would guess the 72 would be > the single channeler with their access key. However imo it would be better to have multiple smaller circles because the flow could be seperated more and a coordinated attack would be better. Also remember when rand was channeling that much power he was less concious of the actions going on around him, to the point that if the others weren't there to protect him, he would of been toast.

 

Circle sizes were dependant on the task at hand. I don't think a 72 person circle would be ideal for the situation you mention. On a power level 72 channelers probably aren't enough to eclipse the power of an access key, but they would have more control over their actions (with half the power of an access key Rand was changing the terrain in the waste, and as it was pointed out with both keys the channelers on the AoL were worried about teh world being destroyed if used).

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Giant statue Sa' angrel is the only other reference I remember. Not a glamorous name by any stretch of the imagination, but then again rand has his fat man angrel =p. Might be better to go with access key though, since they really won't have the sa'angrel on them.

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Also remember when rand was channeling that much power he was less concious of the actions going on around him, to the point that if the others weren't there to protect him, he would of been toast.

 

but you have to count in that he wasn't even thinking about them. he had hiss full attention on the Taint.

 

i'n this scenario i'm guessing the CK-user is actually fixed on his survival and the death of the enemy. in that case i think the fight would be in his favor if it was one gigantic circle, caiuse even yhough one full circle is powerfull it won't be great enough to match the CK.

 

but his chances would probably be less if they divided themselves in to several smaller circles due to the great number of individual flows, although weaker. but they would take alot of casualtys.

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"You recall the Choedan Kal, I suppose... Lews Therin has two of the access keys, one for each. And he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair. He plans to use the Choedan Kal for his deed."

 

"He could shatter the world just trying to use the Choedan Kal."

 

So they would take al'Thor - while he was trying to use the Choedan Kal, no less, he and some woman drinking enough of the one power to melt continents!

 

"With the Choedan Kal... You know them as immense statues, sa'angrel, one buried in Cairhen, the other on tremalking... They're too big to be moved with any ease, but I have a pair of ter'angrel called access keys. Using those, the Choedan Kal can be tapped from anywhere in the world."

 

Amazing that the Choedan Kal had survived continuous use for this long, at this level.

 

When talked about being used together they are called the CK. Every reference we have in the books references them as a pair, and those that know the term Choedan Kal have never used it when refering to the use of a single sa'angrel statue. When talked about seperately they mearly talk about the access keys. The CK is part of a pair requiring 2 access keys as Cyadine mentions. Demandred when refering to al'Thor using the CK references that it would be al'Thor and a woman drinking the power.

 

During the entire fight sequence the forsaken referenced the access keys only, however Modg referenced the CK at the end about how long it had been in use.

Edit: I thought of another reference. Once the female half is broken Rand never refers to it as the CK again when thinking of the access key. And he knows the correct term as that is one of the quotes above.

 

Without slowing, he turned toward the access key. With the amount of saidin pouring through it, there might as well have been a fiery arrowin the sky pointing to al'Thor.

 

The access key blazed with saidin

 

The key still shone as a beacon of the Power.

 

The forsaken reference the access keys when they are talking about the single source they can sense of the power at SG. They make no reference of CK. So using a single source the forsaken consider them as using the access key, not as using the CK.

 

 

For the other comment about power levels "She could fell saidar sweeping through Nyvaeve in torrents undreamed of. All the sisters of the tower combined could have weilded only a fraction of that ocean" - So a thousand odd AS are only a fraction of the power of a single access key, so 72 would be nowhere close. However as I mentioned the awareness lost and a coordinated attack might work.

 

...the key shone so brightly in Moghedien's head that she hungered for just a sip at that immense flow of saidar. To hold so much, the thousandth part of so much, would be ecstasy. - Again 1000th of the use of a single access key is more power than a forsaken.

 

Except that she was acting as a conduit for far more of saidar than the entire White tower could have handled using every angrel and sa' angrel thw Tower possessed. - again another reference

 

His eyes were blank, like polished sapphires. Was he even aware of what was happening around him?

 

Rand could not see Nyvaeve any longer. He could not see anything, feel anything. He swam in surging sea of flame, scrambling across collapsing mountains of ice.

 

When using the CK to the max the user appears to lose themself in the power. It is simply too much to use and still retain awareness of the nearby situation. This was true of Nyv as well who was only acting as a conduit and was not weaving the flows, so it is not due to Rand focusing on cleansing saidin, or Nyv would of been able to retain awareness. It makes sense as well. If 1000th part is esctasy to a forsaken channeling the full amount would put a user into such a state of bliss, 1000 times that would be enough to put someone out of their mind in happiness.

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You also have to remember that Rand was pulling all the power he possible could when he was cleansing saiden. With a ck however you can pull enough of the power to provided a shield that would stop all attacks and still have an awareness of everything around you. You not HAVE to pull all the power you could only what was needed.

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Very true, but the question would be at which point the channeler draws so much that they lose themselves so to speak. When rereading the scene it seemed to happen earlier in the process before Rand held all of the power. Raw power as I pointed out will never be touched by a circle of any size based on the descriptions we have, so the only drawback I can think of is the lack of awareness; well and the risk of destroying the world.

 

Edit: Ok one more quote, this time from Verin. "A sa'angrel...One of a pair, the two largest ever made, that we know of. And an odd pair, as well... They were made during the War of Power, to be a weapon..."

 

Note she mentions they were made to be A weapon... not two weapons or weapons. Which is what the CK references... the use of both as a single weapon.

 

Followed by this: "What? Oh, there is no need for that, I think. The two must be used in unison to handle enough of the one power to break the world - that was the way in the Age of Legends; a man and a woman working together were always ten times as strong as they were apart"

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I think the losing control topic might prove to strong of a point for me to debuff, however Rand lost awareness of everything around him shortly have he started pulling through the ck. Do you think it would have happened at a different point depending on the person? Lets say the person using the ck was Cadsuane, she has been around for a looooong time and more than likely held large amounts of the power over the years via different terangreal or linking through the years, would she have more control or for lack of a better word resistence to the affects of using a high amount of power? Im not saying she can pull all she can from the ck just handle it better then some of of the other people who have only been using the power for a year or two?

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Based on Cadsuanes comments about the power running through Nyvaeve I doubt it. Cad is strong enough to use the female half, but not as strong in the power as Nyv. There are very few that strong enough to use the access keys. Verin even mentions that Logain isn't strong enough in TGH. So the strength is one of the key factors. Once used though the massive amounts would challenge anyone. You have Cads, elza mentioninging it is more power than all of teh tower could muster, and you have forsaken wishing they could feel it and that a 1000th part would be enough to be more than they have ever held.

 

That said when using it singly without the female one (note based on Verins comments using both at once increases the power of the CK 10 times), and only holding half of the power Rand was semi aware of his surroundings when he dueled Asmo. I think he still lost him self, but not entirely. So if when used together they are ~1000 times the highest channeler (honestly I think 2-10000 is more realistic because you would assume Modg has used a sa'angrel in the AoL). You then reduce that 10 times because it is used singly without a woman (as per Verin in TGH) giving it the power of 100 of the strongest channelers, and reduce that in half to 50 times the highest channelers and you get the tipping point where we see Rand barely able to retain awareness in his duel with Asmo. So if you then took 72 of the strongest channelers against a person with the access key they would need to go above that threshold to have enough power to overcome the weaves and likely would lose awareness around them.

 

I'm definitely not sure on those numbers though, and are at best guesses from random comments from characters throughout the series.

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That is indeed possible as well. Sadly we don't have enough info on linking. Until today I completely forgot Verin's comments about a male and female linked increasing their power. It does kind of make sense though, based on other aspects in the series. For example in Rand and Asmo's duel if they held as much power as Rand held Saidin during the cleansing then you would of expected all the male forsaken to jump there and finish Rand off. The fact that none of the male forsaken realised Rand had the male half until the meeting in WH kind of points out that there is a power increase when using saidin and saidar in combination. With how all channelers reacted to the cleansing, it wouldn't be realistic for the same not to be true for male channelers during the duel if it were indeed to the same level of saidin use, and at least know something was going on.

 

It brings up an interesting point as well. A mixture of 72 male and females might be able to attain a power level greater than the sum of the parts.

 

 

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Nah we know a few things about it. First the more balance between males and females the stronger the circle. Second there are certain circle sizes that are stronger than others. 2 is one of those numbers. Lastly the best circle size depended on the task at hand. 12f/1m is likely stronger than 1f/1m, but not as strong as 7f/6m. But I seem to remember that 12 was better than 13 so 6/6 might be stronger than 6/7. I'll see if I can find those references again (most aren't in the books mind you)

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A single male can't use the choeden kal.
Yes, he can. Why do you insist on making this crap up?

 

the power of an access key,
The Access Keys have no power of their own, they allow one access to the power of the Choedan Kal. Both of them.

 

What's it refered to if its only one being used?
The same as if both are used.

 

I'm fairly sure they are both called Choedan Kal' date=' one Choedan Kal, two Choedan Kal, singular and plural. "One of the Choedan Kal".[/quote']Correct. At least someone else round here has some sense.

 

"You recall the Choedan Kal, I suppose... Lews Therin has two of the access keys, one for each. And he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair. He plans to use the Choedan Kal for his deed."
This quote proves it. "One for each". One for each Choedan Kal. Singular and plural are the same.

 

"With the Choedan Kal... You know them as immense statues, sa'angrel, one buried in Cairhen, the other on tremalking... They're too big to be moved with any ease, but I have a pair of ter'angrel called access keys. Using those, the Choedan Kal can be tapped from anywhere in the world."
The Choedan Kal clearly referred to in the plural - not "you know it as two statues", but "you know them as two statues". Case proved. Again. By the very quotes Fryn provided. Very generous of him to prove my case for me.

 

Once the female half is broken Rand never refers to it as the CK again when thinking of the access key. And he knows the correct term as that is one of the quotes above.
What reference does he use?

 

The forsaken reference the access keys when they are talking about the single source they can sense of the power at SG. They make no reference of CK. So using a single source the forsaken consider them as using the access key, not as using the CK.
What's this drivel you're spouting now? Access Key and Choedan Kal are different things. The Choedan Kal are ther big statues. The Access Keys are the ter'angreal used to access them from afar. The two are different. Not least because the Choedan Kal themselves are massive statues and the Aceess Keys are...smaller.

 

But I seem to remember that 12 was better than 13 so 6/6 might be stronger than 6/7.
You can't have six men and six women in a circle. Two and two is the largest equal circle, above that, you need 1 more women than men.
I'll see if I can find those references again (most aren't in the books mind you)
Is that because you made them up?
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The CK are part of a pair. They were made to be used as a single weapon not individually. The power output between using one compared to using both in unison is vast enough that they are different. I have posted enough quotes to show they were developed as a pair to be used in unison. It is not a stretch to believe it would have a different name when used together or apart. After all they have different names for sa'angrel and angrel where the only difference is the extra power that can be added. Going by the quote from Verin the power gain from using both at once is similar to the difference between an angrel and sa'angrel. It is possible that the singular and plural is the same for CK. The quotes you quoted of mine actually don't show what you think they do however.

 

When refering to them individually he uses terms such as them, but when talking about using the CK it is talked as a singular. If something is a part of whole it can be refered to how it is in those quotes. I have two pieces of an apple (note I do not use apples here even though that is the plural form of apple), they are both tasty when eaten seperately, but they are still a part of a single apple. The CK is part of a pair of Sa'angrel they were developed to be used as a single weapon called the Chodean Kal (It is posible that they are called the CK seperately, but it is not true that they were developed to be two seperate weapons). True if the plural and singular of the CK is the same then you could be easily right; however all the terms and phrases also work if both sa'angrel are part of a singular called the CK, and make more sense when you realise the CK was developed to be used as a single weapon; not two weapons that could be used together if needed.

 

The only two references to pair are when refering to the access keys, and then by Verin when she mentions that they are a pair of sa'angrel meant to be used as a single weapon. There is no mention of any use of a pair of CK. "A sa'angrel...One of a pair, the two largest ever made, that we know of. And an odd pair, as well... They were made during the War of Power, to be a weapon..."

 

When you look at actual functionality the access keys do the exact same thing as a sa'angrel; they are used exactly the same with the same result. The only difference is the access keys allow the user to use a sa'angrel that is not present at the current location. While they are conduits to the actual sa'angrel they function exactly like a sa'angrel would. This is why the forsaken see them as beacons if you will. They are two different things, but in function they are basically the same, the access keys simply allowing the user not to have to be by the sa'angrel. Now the only thing I am not sure on is the glowing.

 

 

A few years back there were lots of discussions about linking that pulled info from questions asked by RJ. I said it had been a long time since I had read those, and I never declared them as fact. I'm not sure what your problem is with how I post, but I am discussing topics based on quotes from the books, and I actually post them (I'll also post what I think I remember and my opinion, but I figure the text is more important). I don't assume I am right because of personal feelings, and I try to bring relevant quotes into the discussion. I thought this board was for discussing topics, not for a few people to think they know everything about the series and flame those they disagree with. I like discussing subjects with other people that share my interest in the topic, but not so much close minded people that only see their side of the arguement and post their opinion as fact over and over without bringing actual discussion to the topic.

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It is not a stretch to believe it would have a different name when used together or apart.
It is still utterly unsupported. There is no quote to back up different names for one Choedan Kal or both together.
Going by the quote from Verin the power gain from using both at once is similar to the difference between an angrel and sa'angrel.
No the difference between one and both is that both together are twice as strong as just one. the difference between an angreal and a sa'angreal can be far, far greater. For example, the difference between the fat man angreal and one of the Choedan Kal.
It is possible that the singular and plural is the same for CK.
It is fact.
The quotes you quoted of mine actually don't show what you think they do however.
They show reference to the Choedan Kal in the plural. Which is exactly what I said they said. Do you have difficulty reading? That would explain a lot.

 

When refering to them individually he uses terms such as them, but when talking about using the CK it is talked as a singular.
Examples?
If something is a part of whole it can be refered to how it is in those quotes. I have two pieces of an apple (note I do not use apples here even though that is the plural form of apple), they are both tasty when eaten seperately, but they are still a part of a single apple.
Yes, you use the singular, because they are part of the same apple - however, the Choedan Kal are clearly referred to as them, plural. Not as pieces of one apple, but as two different apples.
The CK is part of a pair of Sa'angrel they were developed to be used as a single weapon called the Chodean Kal (It is posible that they are called the CK seperately, but it is not true that they were developed to be two seperate weapons).
The Choedan Kal are part of a pair of sa'angreal. There are two of them.
True if the plural and singular of the CK is the same then you could be easily right;
I am. Fact.
however all the terms and phrases also work if both sa'angrel are part of a singular called the CK, and make more sense when you realise the CK was developed to be used as a single weapon; not two weapons that could be used together if needed.
Not so. They are clearly referred to as they rather than it. Plural rather than singular. A pair, rather than two halves of a whole.

 

The only two references to pair are when refering to the access keys, and then by Verin when she mentions that they are a pair of sa'angrel meant to be used as a single weapon. There is no mention of any use of a pair of CK. "A sa'angrel...One of a pair, the two largest ever made, that we know of. And an odd pair, as well... They were made during the War of Power, to be a weapon..."
And there are no references to Choedan Kal being only the name given to the statues being used as a pair, rather than for either statue being used on its own. And there is a reference to a pair: "And he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair." A reference to the strength needed to use the CHoedan Kal, rather than the ter'angreal Access Key. Or, nmore accurately, both. It is, after all, impossible to just use the Access Key without using the CK, given that using the CK is what the AK does. So Rand has a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair of CK. That this is a reference to the strength required to only use the AK, not the CK, is unsustainable. This from one of the Chosen.

 

I'm not sure what your problem is with how I post,
I thought I had made it perfectly clear, but if you wish me t make it clearer I shall. I do not like people who state theories as facts. People who refuse to read quotes properly. People who refuse to read counter-arguments properly. People who are unable to see that their theory is disproven, and carry on repeating the same arguments. Resulting in a constant repetitious, redundant refutation of the same retarded, refuted points. How many times did you say Hawkwing's words supported your side only, when they were ambiguous enough that they could support any side, and further evidence proves that your side is wrong? You posted a definition of the word must which doesn't support your argument any more than it does ours - different parts support different people. But you ignored parts which disagreed with you. Even when the definition you provided was thrown back in your face, with people pointing out the parts that didn't support you but did us you still didn't see it. The same here - you posted quotes which do nothing to support you but do support me and you don't even seem to realise. If you refuse to properly read what people write but still respond, debate can't go anywhere because we have to continually explain the same points to you over and over and over again. If I say something, take it on board. Think about my point. Then, by all means, disagree. But not before. That is what you do now. That is my problem with you. Understand?
but I am discussing topics based on quotes from the books, and I actually post them (I'll also post what I think I remember and my opinion, but I figure the text is more important).
Yes, you did post quotes from the book. That's good. But you didn't read them, because they don't support your argument. That's bad. See the problem? You state as fact that Choedan Kal was a term only for both together and there is not one line to support it. Not one. Yet you posted those quotes as if they did.
I don't assume I am right because of personal feelings, and I try to bring relevant quotes into the discussion.
Good. Now if you could just read those quotes first, everythng would be fine.
I thought this board was for discussing topics,
It is.
not for a few people to think they know everything about the series and flame those they disagree with.
It isn't. Fortunately, this doesn't happen. But there is a difference between fact and opinion, and sometimes you claim as opinion matters of fact which are against you. This debate is one example. If you don't like people corrcting you on this, get it right.
I like discussing subjects with other people that share my interest in the topic,
So do I.
but not so much close minded people that only see their side of the arguement and post their opinion as fact over and over without bringing actual discussion to the topic.
Which is exactly what you have done. I am open minded. Where there are no facts, fit in opinions. But don't try and claim that things are a matter of opinion when the facts are against them, because some people here can tell the difference and they do not take kkindly to having to repeatedly tell you to make you understand.

 

Now, back on topic...The strength difference between one of the Choedan Kal and a circle, even of 72, would be so great that the circle could only win through luck or surprise. The person with the CK could weave defences and counter-attack to a degree that the circle couldn't match.

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coming in from the left field... what if that circle was using the the true power..how is that measured for strength against the one power?
They are about equal in strength, as far as I'm aware, so no TP strength boost. Can TP users link? Of course, TP can only be sensed by the user, so it has that advantage, going back to my earlier point of surprise, but if the person with the CK saw them coming it's no contest.
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A single male can't use the choeden kal. It takes a male and female with both access keys. It is only called the CK when both are used at once.

 

You have no evidence of that, you only have the absence of mentions of the singular as Choedan Kal. Since that reality is entirely situational, and the situations in which we have seen mention of the Choedan Kal by those who know something about them (the forsaken and Rand) have directly involved specific incidents involving both, one can draw no conclusions.

 

That said I would guess the 72 would be > the single channeler with their access key.

 

Unlikely. It's directly stated that the entire Tower could not together channel enough of the Power that was used by the female Choedan Kal at the Cleansing. Now, that was personal opinion of shocked individuals and not very trust worthy--but even with that shock only allows for so much--blurring between 72 and 1,000 is not within that range--especially not when we know that the female Choedan Kal wasn't even used to its full capacity. It's directly stated that by far more saidin was channeled than saidar.

 

Ultimately no, a full circle would not be strong enough to stand against the Choedan Kal--singular or plural.

 

Based on Cadsuanes comments about the power running through Nyvaeve I doubt it. Cad is strong enough to use the female half, but not as strong in the power as Nyv. There are very few that strong enough to use the access keys. Verin even mentions that Logain isn't strong enough in TGH.

 

Verin actually states that Logain wouldn't be strong enough to directly use the Choedan Kal--which no living being is. In the same breath she says that Moiraine, Elaida, Lelaine, Romanda, Siuan, Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve could do so--which is completely untrue. And implies, in the same flow, that those women are stronger than Logain, which again, none of them are.

 

Verin was entirely, completely and utterly wrong in every single thing she said in that moment--excepting of course that Logain couldn't directly use the Choedan Kal.

 

You have Cads, elza mentioninging it is more power than all of teh tower could muster, and you have forsaken wishing they could feel it and that a 1000th part would be enough to be more than they have ever held.

 

Thats not entirely true--the Forsaken are on average roughly double the strength of the average Aes Sedai. So 500th.

 

That said when using it singly without the female one (note based on Verins comments using both at once increases the power of the CK 10 times)

 

Verin was clearly very uninformed about the Choedan Kal. As for the comment your referenced;- " a man and a woman working together were always ten times as strong as they were apart."

 

This is untrue. We know that male/female circles causes each participant to include more strength than a female only circle--but it is still not greater than the sum of its parts. Certaily not ten times greater.

 

Verin was at best being hyperbolic, and at worst she was flat out wrong. It makes sense, its been near to 4,000 years since the age of Legends, and Aes Sedai do tend to idolize that period.

 

For example in Rand and Asmo's duel if they held as much power as Rand held Saidin during the cleansing then you would of expected all the male forsaken to jump there and finish Rand off.

 

There has been considerable discussion about that. The overall consensus was that the protections on Rhuidean concealed the power use--Lanfear even states when she arrives that the defences are still there, if fading.

 

In ay case we know as fact that it wasn't because Asmodean and Rand were using less of the power then at the cleansing.

 

It brings up an interesting point as well. A mixture of 72 male and females might be able to attain a power level greater than the sum of the parts.

 

 

No, it wouldn't, RJ directly commented on that. It increases the percentage each channeler gives to the link--the more even the numbers between men and women, the more each contributes--but it still doesn't reach 100% of each, much less greater.

 

I have posted enough quotes to show they were developed as a pair to be used in unison. It is not a stretch to believe it would have a different name when used together or apart.

 

Yet you have no basis to suggest such--indeed, we don't even know what Choedan Kal means, nor do we understand the Old Tongue well enough to make comments about when and if pluralisation should be used. Maybe one was named bob, and the other claire, and together they were Mr and Mrs Choedan Kal, but you can hardly state it as fact--or, for that matter honestly suggest it. No offence but there isn't anything in your quotes that suggest a different nomenclature based on gender, its all generis, gender nuetral, plural nuetral language.

 

After all they have different names for sa'angrel and angrel where the only difference is the extra power that can be added.

 

Which is a functional difference. The Choedan Kal do exactly the same thing, angreal and sa'agreal do not. Beyond which angreal and sa'angreal are refered to as such, differentiated. The Choedan Kal never are.

 

I have two pieces of an apple (note I do not use apples here even though that is the plural form of apple), they are both tasty when eaten seperately, but they are still a part of a single apple.

 

So you have knowledge of how pluralism is used in the Old Tongue? What about in French? I'm failing french, lol, i could use the help. And I've been considering taking up  Vietnamese, do you know the rules of pluarals in Vietnamese--i hear they are especially difficult, it being a tonal language and all.

 

 

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Again its a horror job trying to reply to your posts Mr Ares because you chop everything up instead of replying in segments, but oh well.

 

Going by the quote from Verin the power gain from using both at once is similar to the difference between an angrel and sa'angrel.

No the difference between one and both is that both together are twice as strong as just one. the difference between an angreal and a sa'angreal can be far, far greater. For example, the difference between the fat man angreal and one of the Choedan Kal.

[/Quote]

 

Verin states that using both together increases the overall power 10 times. I posted this but you ignored it. As lurkers mentions this is wrong, but shrug. Obviously she read something about it since she knew it was meant for a weapon.

 

The quotes you quoted of mine actually don't show what you think they do however.

They show reference to the Choedan Kal in the plural. Which is exactly what I said they said. Do you have difficulty reading? That would explain a lot.

 

Not true they reference the access keys as plural and the only time the CK is referenced it is used in the singular.

 

For the examples you wanted.

"You recall the Choedan Kal, I suppose... Lews Therin has two of the access keys, one for each. And he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair. He plans to use the Choedan Kal for his deed."

 

The first part is a reference to the CK this is singular. Next it references the access keys (plural); this of course means that the next time any substitution word like them will refer to the access keys because it was the last noun used. The next part he, he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair, refers to the access keys because this was the last pair and noun referenced previously. Lastly it goes back to the CK as a singular.

 

If something is a part of whole it can be refered to how it is in those quotes. I have two pieces of an apple (note I do not use apples here even though that is the plural form of apple), they are both tasty when eaten seperately, but they are still a part of a single apple.

Yes, you use the singular, because they are part of the same apple - however, the Choedan Kal are clearly referred to as them, plural. Not as pieces of one apple, but as two different apples.

 

I have a series. You know them as books in your library. Together they make a series. The CK is a single weapon; and the two sa'angrel are its 2 pieces (well 2 of 4 if you add in the 2 access keys required). I know the exact them you are talking about and the above example is how I understand it. They are referenced as being a single weapon in the books however.

 

"...They were made during the war of powers, to be a weapon..." Two pieces of a weapon. Much like a trigger and a barrel are part of a gun. Yet you don't call those guns on their own.

 

Oddly enough I can not find a single reference to the use of a male or female CK. Only that of both together being called the CK. Lanfear sees Rand has the male access key and tells him it links to a large male sa'angrel, but does not tell him it is the male CK. Here is a challenge for you find a reference refering to either the male or the female sa'angrel on its own as the CK. I bet the closest you will find is a reference by the forsaken about Nyv or Rand using access keys.

 

 

And there are no references to Choedan Kal being only the name given to the statues being used as a pair, rather than for either statue being used on its own. And there is a reference to a pair: "And he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair." A reference to the strength needed to use the CHoedan Kal, rather than the ter'angreal Access Key. Or, nmore accurately, both. It is, after all, impossible to just use the Access Key without using the CK, given that using the CK is what the AK does. So Rand has a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair of CK. That this is a reference to the strength required to only use the AK, not the CK, is unsustainable. This from one of the Chosen.

There are no references that the sa'angrel are called CK when used individually. I have already posted above that that pair is referencing the access keys because that was the last pair and noun used in the dialogue. There is a definite strength required to use the access keys because they work exactly like the actual sa'angrel and as it has been pointed out by Lanfear and Verin there are not many channelers that can use the sa'angrel. All the access keys do is allow you to use the sa'angrel away from the site. They do not let channelers that are too weak use them. And there are citations of that in the series.

 

 

Yes, you did post quotes from the book. That's good. But you didn't read them, because they don't support your argument. That's bad. See the problem? You state as fact that Choedan Kal was a term only for both together and there is not one line to support it. Not one. Yet you posted those quotes as if they did.

Actually there are zero quotes from the series that when using a single sa'angrel it is called a CK as well. Rand has used the male on its own, but he did not think of it as using the CK. Lanfear told him that it was a link to the biggest male sa'angrel but didn't tell him it was a CK.

 

 

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