Spinning Earthfire - Weave Clarifications

[Covai Seriba]

Okays, time for the first Non-bonding RP discussion for the new board :P

 

As most are aware there's been a bit of confusion about Spinning Earthfire. I've been contact by Jehaine and Tigara and we've worked out there's basically been a bit of mis-communication. The BT know the weave, but the WT don't yet. (I believe you're all working on a RP to re-discover it or something?)

 

Unfortunately I can't access the Weave's list at work, so Jehaine, if you could post the PM I sent you up here that would be great! Summarised though, Jehaine and I have discovered there's acutally no requirement's listed for Spinning Earthfire, just the description for the weave itself. The other problem is when you take a look at the weaves 'Breaking' and 'Spinning Earthfire", there's very little difference between the two.

 

Jehaine summed it up well, suggesting Breaking was a 'watered down' version of Earthfire, similar to how the Milking Tears Talent is a watered down version of the Compulsion Talent. Any input from people on this one?

 

 

 

 

On a side note, we also started to discuss the actualy requirements for the weave, and Breaking seemed to have a rather low requirement. We've also noted that there are currently no weaves that require an elemental strength of above 8, which doesn't seem to fit right. What's the point of having a score of 9 or 10 if there's nothing extra you can do with it, except perhaps edge out someone in a battle of strength? Shouldn't there be some weaves 'unlocked' with higher strengths?

 

Also, it looks like the WT is looking at re-doing the descriptions for the weaves (as is the BT). Based on the above comments, the idea came up of redoing the DRPSW OP system. Few reasons for it are:

 

 

We'll now be forming circles

A year or two ago everybody's OP scores were pushed up

There is currently no use for an elemental score of 9 or 10

In line with the above, almost all weaves are accessible to everyone

The current list is at least 5 years old without having been updated (to my knowledge at least) despite the above happenings

 

The OP system itself is fine, in regards to skill/strength and so on. I do stongly suggest however updating the weaves list requirements and having weaves that require more than an 8 to use, and re-look at each weave's requirements if we start altering those requirements.

 

Final idea, in regards to circles, what do people think of having weaves that require more than a 10 to use? I'm just looking at the angle of if we're all stronger now thanks to circles, we should be able to do more weaves. Maybe, maybe not, but I feel it's at least worth looking at.

 

I realise doing anything major like this needs to be approved by the BT, WT, CoTS and Admins to be approved, since it'll affect all channelers. We've all started to see each divison is operating on a slightly different level, so it'll be great if we can bring everyone into line :D

 

[Sieve]

I don't think linking should give us access to more weaves unless in the case where there was one element that we fell short on before the linking.  Strength does not equal skill in weaving.  Some weaves are just to complex.  In my opinion the linking should increase your range and the strength of your weave not your skill.  Same goes for scores above 8.  If you are using a weave that is predominantly of Air and you have a high score in Air then your weave could be larger and used at a greater distance than someone with a lower score.  Hope that makes some kind of sense.  I am tired and my brain is mush.

[Tigara]

Jehaine summed it up well, suggesting Breaking was a 'watered down' version of Earthfire, similar to how the Milking Tears Talent is a watered down version of the Compulsion Talent. Any input from people on this one?

 

That works for me. All we would need to do is edit the description saying it's a combo of Spinning Earthfire, Lava Flow, and Earthquake. :P

 

On a side note, we also started to discuss the actualy requirements for the weave, and Breaking seemed to have a rather low requirement. We've also noted that there are currently no weaves that require an elemental strength of above 8, which doesn't seem to fit right. What's the point of having a score of 9 or 10 if there's nothing extra you can do with it, except perhaps edge out someone in a battle of strength? Shouldn't there be some weaves 'unlocked' with higher strengths?

 

Exactly! Why have a score that high when you get no benefit other than people able to overpower with it. There should be some special weaves that use those freakishly high scores.

 

Also, it looks like the WT is looking at re-doing the descriptions for the weaves (as is the BT). Based on the above comments, the idea came up of redoing the DRPSW OP system. Few reasons for it are:

 

 

We'll now be forming circles

A year or two ago everybody's OP scores were pushed up

There is currently no use for an elemental score of 9 or 10

In line with the above, almost all weaves are accessible to everyone

The current list is at least 5 years old without having been updated (to my knowledge at least) despite the above happenings

 

The OP system itself is fine, in regards to skill/strength and so on. I do stongly suggest however updating the weaves list requirements and having weaves that require more than an 8 to use, and re-look at each weave's requirements if we start altering those requirements.

 

*nods sagely* It definitely needs updating and re-doing. Maybe it's a project the staff from each channeling Div should be involved in.

 

Final idea, in regards to circles, what do people think of having weaves that require more than a 10 to use? I'm just looking at the angle of if we're all stronger now thanks to circles, we should be able to do more weaves. Maybe, maybe not, but I feel it's at least worth looking at.

 

I'm not sure on this one. I'm not aware of a system for adding Element scores when linked. They only cover Strength when linked. It would have to be created.

[Liitha]

again, the point one is to in my opinion to get all channeling divs to make a list with div specific requirements, where it stands clearly which weaves the div know and not, and which rank you have to be to use it, as well which takes special permisions to use

 

further all discovery of new amazing weaves, new book weaves, or making up of strong weaves would require admin aproval, and there is still a few weaves on the lists that is pretty much unavaliable to just about everyone

 

as for the being stronger, its the same as with skill, has to do with your capabilities to perform weaves, sizes of the weaves, effect of them and so on and forth

 

a weak char and a strong char would be able to make different strengths of fireball, basicaly compare it to a small person and a big one, like me and my bf, i am just as capable of hamering in a nail in the wall, but it will take me more hits with the hammer to get the nail in, then it would my bf who are biger and stronger and such could put more force into the hammer...then you add in skill, and if i was very much more skilled then him, then i migth have less misses on the nail head, so the wall around my nail wouldnt be crushed, and tallying up we migth end up at the same number of hits, because even if it took me more hits to put the nail in, i had less wasted hits.

 

 

[Jehaine]

 

*snip*

 

Also, it looks like the WT is looking at re-doing the descriptions for the weaves (as is the BT). Based on the above comments, the idea came up of redoing the DRPSW OP system. Few reasons for it are:

 

 

We'll now be forming circles

A year or two ago everybody's OP scores were pushed up

There is currently no use for an elemental score of 9 or 10

In line with the above, almost all weaves are accessible to everyone

The current list is at least 5 years old without having been updated (to my knowledge at least) despite the above happenings

 

The OP system itself is fine, in regards to skill/strength and so on. I do stongly suggest however updating the weaves list requirements and having weaves that require more than an 8 to use, and re-look at each weave's requirements if we start altering those requirements.

 

*nods sagely* It definitely needs updating and re-doing. Maybe it's a project the staff from each channeling Div should be involved in.

 

Umm... this brings up a small problem in the form of 'specialised builds', so to speak. Imagine for example Portal is raised from 8 to 9 Spirit. Judging by the OP scores table, quite a few people have an 8 in Spirit which in most cases i assume to be to make the requirements for this weave. Given that this effectively makes it inaccessable to them for no longer making the (new) requirements, should we allow people to modify their OP element breakdowns to have them still end up with the weaves they want?

 

DISCLAIMER: I am in favor of this idea. I just want to point this out to keep the whining to a minimum :P

[Arath Faringal]

Sounds to me like an overhaul of the OP system.  :-\

[Jehaine]

More like an overhaul of the supposed AoL weaves, i can't really see the smaller weaves as being affected by this.

 

But yeah, the top tier needs work :/

[Covai Seriba]

Top Tier overhaul it is then  :-\ lol

 

 

So what are we calling top tier weaves then? I see it as somewhat

 

 

1-3 Low Level

4-6 Medium Level

7-8 Advanced Level

9-8 Top Tier/'OMG how did you that?!?!?!' Level

 

 

I see Travelling as Advanced, Rolling Ring of Earth and Fire from the books Advanced, and Earthfire/Lava control is definetely Top Tier.

[Jaydena]

Well one thing we need to do is point Raeyn and Owen this direction, lessing with the OP score is a big thing, and should never be undertaken without them involved. Covai since you started the thread I am thinking you should PM them and let them know what is going on. I agree we have some issues with it and the linking with BTers is going to change some things for the WT.

[Covai Seriba]

Will do.

 

But before we really start with this, do we have initial approval/agreement from all sides that some degree of revamping is required? Everyone seems to agree, so this is more of a formality at the moment.

[Jehaine]

*raises hand*

 

In favor

[Jaydena]

In favor

[Tigara]

Fo shizzle my nizzle! (No idea what that actually means:P)

 

>.>

 

In favor!

[Covai Seriba]

Just PMed them.

 

So what are we looking at as the focus here? It seems we all agree the weaves are what need the work, as the system seems to be pretty okay at the moment. Or does anyone have something else to add in here? Maybe doubling the limit of scores from 10 to 20 to allow more spreading out with the requirements? Jump in with what ever ideas you have at the moment, we're still in the early stages of tossing ideas around :)

[Jehaine]

I'm actually fine with the 1-10 spread since we're only actually using 1-8. Besides, it'd require us to rework the angreal and sa'angreal formulas as well.

[Jaydena]

*nods* 1-10 makes sense to me, there are a lot of people who can't even do 8 so I think we are fine with the limits.

[Covai Seriba]

Awesome, so that leaves us to focus just on the weave requirements, we can leave the system itself as is.

 

So, issues/matters at hand are (these aren't set in stone yet, so feel free to comment on each):

 

Having weaves that require a 9 or 10 elemental score value.

Rewriting the descriptions for some weaves (the whole earthfire Vs Breaking case here)

Rewriting the requirements for each weave

Creating NEW weaves for 9-10 scores

Creating new weaves somewhere in the list

Looking at circles and what they'll be able to do

 

 

Anybody got something to add?

 

Personally I'm favouring reworking the requirements for the top level weaves and having some that require a 9 and 10. The big thing that Jehaine pointed out is if we modified existed weaves (which i think we need to), do we give people the option of re-assigning their scores between the elements?

 

 

[Sieve]

Looking at circles and what they'll be able to do

 

 

Anybody got something to add?

 

As far as linking, it shouldn't allow you access to additional weaves in my opinion.  It only increase the magnitude of your weaves not you strength in the elements.  So if someone could only make a fireball the size of a horses head before linking then they should only be able to make a slightly larger one when linked.  Hope that makes sense...

 

If you are going to change the scheme then you should allow people to change their OP scores.  The only problem I see with having weaves that require a 9 or 10 is that people will end up having to sacrifice the majority of the weaves just to allow access to a few weaves or maybe even one particular weave.  Though that may just make more sense in the long run and make the individual character more unique.

[Arath Faringal]

As far as linking, it shouldn't allow you access to additional weaves in my opinion.  It only increase the magnitude of your weaves not you strength in the elements.  So if someone could only make a fireball the size of a horses head before linking then they should only be able to make a slightly larger one when linked.  Hope that makes sense...

 

I don't think so.  Take Traveling for an example.  In the books, a lot of the rebel Aes Sedai don't have the strength to make a gateway (ie, score of 8 in spirit) 2 linked together can.  I think the way to do it is to take the new strength score of the circle, and divide it points out proportional to the strength of the members.

 

For example, if two channelers with a strength of 30 link, the circle strength will be ... 45 I believe.  So treat that 45 like a strength buying allowance and distribute the scores accordingly.  If both people are strong in spirit, the circle will be strongest in spirit.  If both are weak in fire, the circle will be weaker in fire, though stronger than the individuals.

[Sieve]

That one weave seems to be the exception, I can't think of another instance where a weave was able to be completed because someone was linked.  Some people are simply no good with certain elements, being linked will not help them.  Aside from that, skill still comes into play as to what someone is capable of.

 

For example, if two channelers with a strength of 30 link, the circle strength will be ... 45 I believe.  So treat that 45 like a strength buying allowance and distribute the scores accordingly.  If both people are strong in spirit, the circle will be strongest in spirit.  If both are weak in fire, the circle will be weaker in fire, though stronger than the individuals.

 

I agree with your example, I wouldn't want to see people boosting the elements they were weak in with the extra power from linking and suddenly being able to channel every weave under the sun.  Whoever is guiding the circle should be restricted to the weaves they know with the exception being travelling.   

[Covai Seriba]

Agreed Sieve. If we do change the requirements of weaves, it's only fair give people the chance to change their scores for the new list.

 

As for people giving up weaves to access different weaves, that will be up to them. No one will be forced to change their scores if they don't want to. I was taking a look at the requirements for the weaves and for all bar a small number at the top, almost everyone can do almost everything at the moment. That just doesn't seem to sit right with me. As you mentioned I'm looking more at the long run of things here. With more and more interactions between channelers of different divisions I really would like to see more uniquness and variation between people.

 

Let me just copy and paste some stuff here.

 

(Average Strength of the members of the circle) x (modifier)

 

The modifiers will be set on a base 1.5 with 0.1 added for each channeler that is added to the circle. A circle of 2 channelers would have a modifier of 1.5, a circle of 3 channelers would have a modifier of 1.6, and so on. The Skill of a circle is that of the leader.

 

For example, if Egwene (Strength 29), Logain (Strength 34) and Elayne (Strength 29) link, here is how to work out the overall strength of the circle:

 

Average Strength (92 / 3 = 31)

 

Multiply the result by the modifier for 3 channelers (31 x 1.6 = 50).

 

If Elayne is leading the circle, with a skill of 33, then the overall Potency of the circle would be 50 + 33 = 88.

 

Large circles are one of the few situations where potency can exceed the 100 limit normally placed upon it. Here is an example:

 

A circle of 13 Aes Sedai with a hypothetical average Strength of 28. Using the appropriate modifier of 2.6 you would have the following result:

 

Average Strength (28) x modifier (2.6) = 73

 

If Elayne is again leading this circle, with her Skill of 33, then the overall potency would be 73 + 33 = 106

 

So looking at the system, the more people in the circle the less of an issue power becomes (since you've got so much of it), and the more skill becomes the limiting factor. Arath's example of Travelling is a great example of circles being used on a small scale. The larger scales circles aren't likely to pop up exactly in big RPs where they're planned out anyways.

 

With traveling (since it seems to be our best example at the moment), it requires

 

8 in Spirit

26 in Skill

 

If we pumped the spirit up to 9, that would cut a lot of people out of it (with their current scores). Likewise, pump it up by a few skill points to 29 or so, and you'd cut a lot of Asha'man out.

 

The big thing here I guess is not just pumping up all weaves for the sake of it making it difficult for people to do. I guess its a bit of a paradox coming from me since what I want to see if a list of weaves that not everyone can do :P

 

Looking through the lists, Quake Subside only requires a 5 in earth. Now that really is one I think we should pump up much higher. If you want to stop and earthquake you're going to need a bit more strength than a 5 :P

 

Speaking of looking through the lists, maybe we should go through it and work out which weaves need work? http://www.aliciawilkerson.com/blacktower/?page_id=12

Most of the descriptions are fine, but if we can work out which ones people agree need modifying (either descriptions or requirements) we can can something put together much quicker.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[Kara_J]

 

 

Looking through the lists, Quake Subside only requires a 5 in earth. Now that really is one I think we should pump up much higher. If you want to stop and earthquake you're going to need a bit more strength than a 5 :P

 

 

Thoughts?

 

I was just looking at that exact one. I personally think that if it takes a strength of 7 in Earth to cause an Earthquake then it'll need at least that to counter it.

[Sieve]

Covia I like the direction you are taking.  In my opinion we have too many people (including my char) who can channel almost all of the weaves save for the major ones.  Boosting some such as the one you mentioned is a great idea.  Geirrin is one of the strongest Asha'man and can do most of the weaves save a few.  His air and water scores prohibit him from a few and his skill limits him from some of the top tier but aside from that he has access to the rest.  I like the proposed system since it will cause me to adjust his scores essentially taking more weaves away from him.  Even though he is strong he should not be able to use so many weaves as he is able to under the current system.

 

I agree with Kara_J regarding that particular weave and others like it.

 

My main concern with the linking is that it shouldn't allow you access to additional weaves that you do not already know how to create save travelling since it is the proven exception.  In that particular case people knew the weave though they lacked the strength to pull it off.  Take the example of working with the weather when Elayne, Nyneave, and the others linked using the bowl to fix the weather.  Elayne already knew the weaves to work with weather yet she needed the combined strength of the circle to increase the area of affect.  She wasn't suddenly open to additional weaves though the magnitude of her channeling was increased.

 

The more I think on it though maybe we can make a concession.  Say someone is proficient with weaves that relate to the weather though it just so happens that he/she is not strong enough to pull off a weave such as Quake Subside solo (assuming it is a power issue not a skill issue).  However if said person links and controls the link they now how sufficent power to pull it off.  It would have to be situational in my opinion.  It should not have a huge effect on what weaves you can do.  Said person may be able to work with the weather but they are terrible in another area.  For example, my Geirrin has the necessary power and skill to heal though I chose to make him unable to do so.  He could link with as many people as possible but he will never be able to heal.  So the above exmaple will basically be on the honor system, we will have to police ourselves and make sure that none of us take advantage of this type of system. 

 

Sorry I have given far more than my 2 cents but we have to live with this after it is put into place. 

[Elgee]

You lost me a bit there, Sieve

 

*snuggles*, btw  :D

 

Elayne did not control that circle for the Weather, the one Windfinder did (the one judged to have the most experience and knowledge on the subject, though she was by far not the Strongest).

 

Linking (when you are the one leading the circle) will only add to the Strength you can wield - it will not affect your knowledge / experience of making that particular weave. IE, if you don't have a cooking clue how to make that weave, no amount of added strength (either through an angreal, sa'angreal (sp?) or circle) will help you do it any better.

 

Now, if you KNOW how to make the weaves to Heal, Travel, etc, but are not strong enough to form them on your own, or do a very good job of it, you WILL be able to do it / do it better, IF you add Strength.

 

 

[Sieve]

You lost me a bit there, Sieve

 

*snuggles*, btw  :D

 

Elayne did not control that circle for the Weather, the one Windfinder did (the one judged to have the most experience and knowledge on the subject, though she was by far not the Strongest).

 

Linking (when you are the one leading the circle) will only add to the Strength you can wield - it will not affect your knowledge / experience of making that particular weave. IE, if you don't have a cooking clue how to make that weave, no amount of added strength (either through an angreal, sa'angreal (sp?) or circle) will help you do it any better.

 

Now, if you KNOW how to make the weaves to Heal, Travel, etc, but are not strong enough to form them on your own, or do a very good job of it, you WILL be able to do it / do it better, IF you add Strength.

 

 

 

Sorry to confuse, I knew I should have researched the reference I used but I was being lazy.  :-[  I am lucky to remember the general gist of it let alone the details.  Regardless of the details it still makes the same point.  ;)  The rest of what you said is what I was trying to say just that I used a whole lot of extra words and probably made a lot less sense. :)