Various Issues

[Charlz Fel]

Let me see if I can outline the mechanisms we know, or suspect, for the Wheel to influence events.  (I'm leaving aside the question of whether these mechanisms are actually "part of" the Wheel.)

 

In order of non-intrusiveness:

 

1) If several events are approximately equally likely, the Wheel can choose which of them actually happens.  [Perhaps it gets to choose which of the plausible "worlds that might be" is the real world.]  By making a number of such choices, the Wheel can bring about very improbable situations.

Example: Given his desire to see the world, Loial was going to pass through Caemlyn at some point; and his visit was as likely to coincide with Rand's visit as it was to fall at any other time in the space of two or three years.  Loial was as likely to stay at the Queen's Blessing as at any other in in Caemlyn.  Putting these events together, the Wheel was able to engineer an improbable event--that Loial would meet Rand, and be available to take people on the Ways.

 

2) If the Wheel needs a person in a particular place who will make certain decisions, have certain skills, etc., it has an arsenal of Heroes to weave out; hopefully, one of them will be appropriate.

 

3) The Wheel can make people ta'veren.  In the vicinity of a ta'veren, improbable events become more probable, making 1) a much more powerful tool.  Additionally, ta'veren can be linked, so that they can "feel" each others need, and even see visions of each other.  The Wheel seems to be able to influence ta'verens' choices directly, for instance, when Mat finds it impossible to leave Rand however much he wants to.  And there may be other effects.  It is stated that ta'veren "draw what they need to them," suggesting that--if the characters know what they are talking about--ta'veren influence can extend beyond the immediate vicinity of the ta'veren.  [Or perhaps the Wheel just makes sure using other mechanisms that ta'veren have what it needs them to have.]

 

4) When the Horn of Valere is blown, the Wheel can bring about extraordinary things--visions in the sky, for instance, and even non-ta'veren being able to tell when a ta'veren needs them to go somewhere.

 

As far as I can tell, the substance of the debate (at least, the not-too-abstract part) seems to be whether 1) is impossible except through ta'veren (RAW's position) or is simply enhanced by the presence of a ta'veren (Luckers' position).  The latter view makes plausible, but does not imply, the position that ta'veren effects can only happen in the vicinity of a ta'veren.

[RobertAlexWillis]

By making a number of such choices, the Wheel can bring about very improbable situations

 

Well, I would say that you don't "bring about" anything just by making a choice.  The simple act of choosing doesn't accomplish much.  I can sit here and "choose" to have a hundred million dollar mansion with 200 gorgeous nubile women, each of whom also has a professional level ability in some form that would allow them to meet my every desire, along with a deep and abiding devotion to me.  Sadly, I don't think my "choice" will impact reality.  I need the means to cause those things to actually happen.

 

As I understand it, the Wheel uses "fuzzy logic" to make "decisions".  It can then use a number of mechanisms to make those "decisions" take shape within the Pattern.  It has normal "weaving" mechanisms, which account for everyday life, in normal circumstances.  This is the ability to place specific threads into the Pattern at specific places and times, including Heroes.  It can alter the nature of those threads, making them into ta'veren.  In my conception, that is like taking more specific control of a thread and the threads around it (possibly all the threads in the Pattern at that time).  If it was just creating a "looseness" that allowed unusual things to happen, then the souls who are ta'veren could use that "looseness" to take the Pattern wherever they wanted to.  That doesn't seem to match Rand's experience (or Mat's for that matter).  He seems to feel that whenever he tries to "force" the Pattern, he gets snapped back into place.

 

But the Wheel in a loom doesn't actually move or weave the threads directly.  It provides the power and direction to other mechanisms which actually are in contact with the threads.  I don't think that RJ chose that metaphor by accident.

 

The normal weaving mechanisms that are directed by the Wheel are always in play.  But the highly unlikely strings of events which constantly surround the lives of Rand, Mat, and Perrin (which often originate thousands of miles away) don't represent a loosening of events, they represent a specific correction, binding threads more closely around them.  Again, just because something is unlikely doesn't make it the result of chaos.  In fact, unlikely events in constant sequence almost have to be the result of a suspension of chaos.

 

It is correct to say that "the Wheel weaves" because the Wheel is the deciding and driving "force".  But that doesn't mean that the Wheel does what it does without intermediary "mechanisms".

 

All that said, I don't really think we're getting anywhere here.  I think we'll just have to disagree.

[Charlz Fel]

By making a number of such choices, the Wheel can bring about very improbable situations

 

Well, I would say that you don't "bring about" anything just by making a choice.  The simple act of choosing doesn't accomplish much.  I can sit here and "choose" to have a hundred million dollar mansion with 200 gorgeous nubile women, each of whom also has a professional level ability in some form that would allow them to meet my every desire, along with a deep and abiding devotion to me.  Sadly, I don't think my "choice" will impact reality.  I need the means to cause those things to actually happen.

 

 

This is just an issue of word choice.  My point is that there is some mechanism in play (which may or may not be a part of the Wheel, depending on your philosophy) that allows the "choices" of the Wheel to become reality within certain limits.

 

If it was just creating a "looseness" that allowed unusual things to happen, then the souls who are ta'veren could use that "looseness" to take the Pattern wherever they wanted to.

The ta'veren do not control which unlikely events occur.  The Wheel/Pattern does. 

 

However, I'll admit that the model I have suggested (with strong influences from Luckers' ideas) does not seem to capture everything.  There is a strong sense that ta'veren can move the Pattern by their own action, not just that the Pattern has greater freedom to work when they are around.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

My point is that there is some mechanism in play (which may or may not be a part of the Wheel, depending on your philosophy) that allows the "choices" of the Wheel to become reality within certain limits.

 

My point is that there is some mechanism in play, which is driven by the Wheel, but is not actually the Wheel itself.

 

This is just an issue of word choice.

 

Yes, words have meanings and therefore, every discussion, argument, speech, attempt at persuasion, rant, diatribe, begging session, put down, compliment, or other attempt at linguistic communication is an issue of word choice.

 

;D

 

The ta'veren do not control which unlikely events occur.  The Wheel/Pattern does.

 

The Wheel makes a decision.  The Pattern is the result.  Ta'veren is, I contend, the mechanism.  The Wheel and the Pattern are most emphatically not the same thing, any more than a spinning wheel and a tapestry are the same thing.  Structured metaphors have structure for a reason.

 

No wonder nobody gets House ...  ;)

 

[Charlz Fel]

 

This is just an issue of word choice.

 

Yes, words have meanings and therefore, every discussion, argument, speech, attempt at persuasion, rant, diatribe, begging session, put down, compliment, or other attempt at linguistic communication is an issue of word choice.

 

;D

 

As you pointed out, discussion of abstract concepts is very difficult.  For a given concept, there may not be a word that means exactly what the writer wants to say.  In context, I thought it was obvious what I meant by "choose," and arguing that this word should not be used this way has no bearing on the system I was describing.

 

For the rest, I know next to nothing about looms, spinning wheels, etc., so I'm just going to cede the argument.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As you pointed out, discussion of abstract concepts is very difficult.  For a given concept, there may not be a word that means exactly what the writer wants to say.

 

Well, at least that much got communicated accurately ... which is irony of maybe the second order.  :)

 

In context, I thought it was obvious what I meant by [insert word of your choice here]

 

I feel your pain there, brother.

[Luckers]

I expounded on entropy because it was clear to me that the notion of entropy was the inspiration for RAW's notion of chaos.  The natural extension of this was to compare your view to a different mathematical/scientific notion of chaos.  However, I realized that this might be trying to fit a square peg in a round hole--there is no reason your notion had to come from any mathematical/scientific construct, and I did not want to impose something extraneous on the discussion.  If, in fact, your notion is based on the mathematical notion, feel free to enlighten us.

 

Yeah i was just a little confused about your directing people elsewhere to understand my argument--in doing so i felt you were in fact caste-typing my argument.

 

Thats not how I read it at all.  My understanding of what he said is that "Even while ta'veren is making things seem like they're going crazy in a city or town, lots of totally normal unimportant things are still going on.  I just don't list them because they're not interesting."

 

But thats a basic level difference that probably grows out of the differences in how we view real reality, too.

 

Probably true--i still see it my way, though i can see how you'd come to your interpretation.

 

Sorry, but a processor, by definition, requires a separate output mechanism.  You can't hold your little Intel chip in your hand and play Empire: Total War (yes, that was a random plug).  Thats why I picked that word, because it seems to fit how the Wheel is described, to me, and thats why I think the Wheel is not enough by itself to "influence" events.

 

But there is no evidence of that. By all comments the wheel is the computer in its entirety--there is not a hint of another active influence, a seperate 'motherboard' to continue the metaphor. Ta'verenism is, within this metaphor, a virus scan program or something--though perhaps 'disk defragment' would suite better. It is a tool, activated at the need of the computer, but the computers drive.

 

There is nothing to suggest more than that--and to continue a previous metaphor i think you are looking for the God in the Machine--but we know were the God is, its the Creator, or playing at other games. This is a case of God AND the machine.

 

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Ta'vernism doesn't control anything--it influences it.

 

Sufficiently sophisticated "influence" amounts to control.

 

Alright let me rephrase myself. Ta'verenism doesn't control or influence anything, it allows the Wheel to do so at an increased degree. It is still the wheel that is the source. It's like an angreal to a channeler (which im sure ive already said in this thread)--it increases the effect, but it is not the source.

 

I'll have to check it out.  I would say, though, that I've described some differences between the way I view "Chaos" in the World of the Wheel, and how physics and IT people describe "entropy".

 

As a side note, our conversations provide an absolutely fascinating study for me in language mechanics ... lol ... its amazing how poorly even relatively intelligent people communicate when discussing completely abstract ideas.  Communication through language is completely dependent on a common frame of reference ... -sigh-

 

Fair enough about the entropy thing. And yeah, i know--a friend of mine at uni (a philosophy major, the douche) once described an abstract conversation as seeing a bat fly in front of the moon--you describe the outline, not the topic.

 

You see why i call him a douche. Bastards right. That, and we were tempin bowling at the time.

 

1) If several events are approximately equally likely, the Wheel can choose which of them actually happens.  [Perhaps it gets to choose which of the plausible "worlds that might be" is the real world.]  By making a number of such choices, the Wheel can bring about very improbable situations.

Example: Given his desire to see the world, Loial was going to pass through Caemlyn at some point; and his visit was as likely to coincide with Rand's visit as it was to fall at any other time in the space of two or three years.  Loial was as likely to stay at the Queen's Blessing as at any other in in Caemlyn.  Putting these events together, the Wheel was able to engineer an improbable event--that Loial would meet Rand, and be available to take people on the Ways.

 

I think choose is the from word--it requires a degree of self-perception lacking in the fuzzy logic of the wheel. Thats what i use the word 'push'. The Wheel has an endgame, a point towards which it is moving, and it pushes events in order that they come out the right way. Another way to say it is to imagine a current--it doesn't actively choose to sweep you in this direction or that, but it still pulls you along in the general direction. Of course this means you might acidentally drift of course, which is why the Wheel throws out ta'veren, allowing it to increase the strength of the current and pull you back on course.

 

But it is still generic and fuzzy, even then.

 

Your example is too reasoned--it involved the wheel thinking, percieving specific events and choosing specific courses. This is not what it does. It is aware of the general state of things, and when they are drifting of course, but it is not concious, not aware in the manner you describe.

 

2) If the Wheel needs a person in a particular place who will make certain decisions, have certain skills, etc., it has an arsenal of Heroes to weave out; hopefully, one of them will be appropriate.

 

Again you give it too much concious awareness--it percieves a need and throws out the heroes when great action is needed, but it is not particular, not specific.

 

My point is that there is some mechanism in play, which is driven by the Wheel, but is not actually the Wheel itself.

 

But where is the evidence of this?

[Nightstrike]

Thats not how I read it at all.  My understanding of what he said is that "Even while ta'veren is making things seem like they're going crazy in a city or town, lots of totally normal unimportant things are still going on.  I just don't list them because they're not interesting."

 

But thats a basic level difference that probably grows out of the differences in how we view real reality, too.

Based on the Guide, I agree with Robert Alex Willis.

 

Sorry, but a processor, by definition, requires a separate output mechanism.  You can't hold your little Intel chip in your hand and play Empire: Total War (yes, that was a random plug).  Thats why I picked that word, because it seems to fit how the Wheel is described, to me, and thats why I think the Wheel is not enough by itself to "influence" events.

 

But there is no evidence of that. By all comments the wheel is the computer in its entirety--there is not a hint of another active influence, a seperate 'motherboard' to continue the metaphor. Ta'verenism is, within this metaphor, a virus scan program or something--though perhaps 'disk defragment' would suite better. It is a tool, activated at the need of the computer, but the computers drive.

 

There is nothing to suggest more than that--and to continue a previous metaphor i think you are looking for the God in the Machine--but we know were the God is, its the Creator, or playing at other games. This is a case of God AND the machine.

Based on the Guide, I agree with Luckers. I might add that the Wheel takes it's energy from the True Source (saidin and saidar), which probably comes directly from the Creator. Other than that, the Wheel touches everything. What could have been, what was, what is and what will be. Other worlds and other dimensions. The world of waking and the world of dreaming. Everything. It is time itself. Only known powers outside the Wheel is the Creator and the Dark One.

 

 

 

Alright let me rephrase myself. Ta'verenism doesn't control or influence anything, it allows the Wheel to do so at an increased degree. It is still the wheel that is the source. It's like an angreal to a channeler (which im sure ive already said in this thread)--it increases the effect, but it is not the source.

I agree with Luckers.

 

 

1) If several events are approximately equally likely, the Wheel can choose which of them actually happens.  [Perhaps it gets to choose which of the plausible "worlds that might be" is the real world.]  By making a number of such choices, the Wheel can bring about very improbable situations.

Example: Given his desire to see the world, Loial was going to pass through Caemlyn at some point; and his visit was as likely to coincide with Rand's visit as it was to fall at any other time in the space of two or three years.  Loial was as likely to stay at the Queen's Blessing as at any other in in Caemlyn.  Putting these events together, the Wheel was able to engineer an improbable event--that Loial would meet Rand, and be available to take people on the Ways.

 

I think choose is the from word--it requires a degree of self-perception lacking in the fuzzy logic of the wheel. Thats what i use the word 'push'. The Wheel has an endgame, a point towards which it is moving, and it pushes events in order that they come out the right way. Another way to say it is to imagine a current--it doesn't actively choose to sweep you in this direction or that, but it still pulls you along in the general direction. Of course this means you might acidentally drift of course, which is why the Wheel throws out ta'veren, allowing it to increase the strength of the current and pull you back on course.

But it is still generic and fuzzy, even then.

I'm with RAW on this one. Based on the Guide, and on what RJ said. For instance:

Q98: At the end of TGH, when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places. And my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something done by the Creator? How did they appear in the sky?

 

RJ: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn’t the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta’veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were False Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those False Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

...and this (RJ's blog):

The Wheel creates ta'veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren't born ta'veren. Can you imagine being around a ta'veren who is teething? <shudder> It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta'veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta'veren are created. I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta'veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel "sees" as the necessary corrective. And, no, ta'veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina. It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.

 

 

 

Your example is too reasoned--it involved the wheel thinking, percieving specific events and choosing specific courses. This is not what it does. It is aware of the general state of things, and when they are drifting of course, but it is not concious, not aware in the manner you describe.

No, it's probably not self-aware. But it is an AI with staggering logical abilities. The complexity of the "choices" it makes is beyond human comprehension. That's my view of it, anyway.

 

2) If the Wheel needs a person in a particular place who will make certain decisions, have certain skills, etc., it has an arsenal of Heroes to weave out; hopefully, one of them will be appropriate.

 

Again you give it too much concious awareness--it percieves a need and throws out the heroes when great action is needed, but it is not particular, not specific.

I think it must be very specific indeed. The manipulations that causes ta'veren influenced events must be taking up lots and lots of perfectly coordinated "weaving" or "thread pulling". The Wheel touches everything that is, that could have been and will be. The right choices and the wrong ones are all included.

 

My point is that there is some mechanism in play, which is driven by the Wheel, but is not actually the Wheel itself.

 

But where is the evidence of this?

I'm with Luckers on this one. All evidence points toward the Wheel and the True Source being the causes of the Pattern. Only the Creator and the Dark One are known to be outside the Wheel and the Pattern.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Based on the Guide, I agree with Robert Alex Willis.

 

Which aspect of the Guide? I ask because the issue im facing here, with trying to address my comments, is that i dont entirely disagree with Roberts comment. Ta'veren would influence smaller events--within the scope of their ta'maral'ailen (which is the main point Robert and I disagree on, and seperate to this specific point), my issue is that i don't think think that comment by RJ refers to this. Each interpretation (as in Roberts about the far reaching effects of ta'veren on normal events, and me on the idea that RJ's comment refers to the idea that coincidences can occur normally without ta'veren).

 

I don't disagree with Robert's claim except in scope--so if there are specific comments in the guide that sustain Robert's idea of the extent to which these less dramatic effects can be caused by ta'veren i'd like to know.

 

I'm with RAW on this one. Based on the Guide, and on what RJ said. For instance:

 

That wasn't Robert, that was Charlz. Robert actually came much closer to my answer. But in full...

 

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1) If several events are approximately equally likely, the Wheel can choose which of them actually happens.  [Perhaps it gets to choose which of the plausible "worlds that might be" is the real world.]  By making a number of such choices, the Wheel can bring about very improbable situations.

Example: Given his desire to see the world, Loial was going to pass through Caemlyn at some point; and his visit was as likely to coincide with Rand's visit as it was to fall at any other time in the space of two or three years.  Loial was as likely to stay at the Queen's Blessing as at any other in in Caemlyn.  Putting these events together, the Wheel was able to engineer an improbable event--that Loial would meet Rand, and be available to take people on the Ways.

 

 

 

I think choose is the from word--it requires a degree of self-perception lacking in the fuzzy logic of the wheel. Thats what i use the word 'push'. The Wheel has an endgame, a point towards which it is moving, and it pushes events in order that they come out the right way. Another way to say it is to imagine a current--it doesn't actively choose to sweep you in this direction or that, but it still pulls you along in the general direction. Of course this means you might acidentally drift of course, which is why the Wheel throws out ta'veren, allowing it to increase the strength of the current and pull you back on course.

But it is still generic and fuzzy, even then.

 

 

 

I'm with RAW on this one. Based on the Guide, and on what RJ said. For instance:

 

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Q98: At the end of TGH, when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places. And my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something done by the Creator? How did they appear in the sky?

 

RJ: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn’t the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta’veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were False Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those False Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

...and this (RJ's blog):

 

Quote

The Wheel creates ta'veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren't born ta'veren. Can you imagine being around a ta'veren who is teething? <shudder> It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta'veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta'veren are created. I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta'veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel "sees" as the necessary corrective. And, no, ta'veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina. It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.

 

None of that disagrees with my interpretation. In fact i cited several of those points myself. I never intended to give the impression i thought the wheel simple--i was just disagreeing with the conciousness of using the word 'choose'--what the wheel does is not simple, but it is not concious.

 

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Your example is too reasoned--it involved the wheel thinking, percieving specific events and choosing specific courses. This is not what it does. It is aware of the general state of things, and when they are drifting of course, but it is not concious, not aware in the manner you describe.

No, it's probably not self-aware. But it is an AI with staggering logical abilities. The complexity of the "choices" it makes is beyond human comprehension. That's my view of it, anyway.

 

See i still disagree with that. First, it is not an AI--it is neither artificial, nor intelligent in the way AI suggests--as in, self aware or concious. It's complexity is no problem--the complexity of choice however is. It does not choose. It reacts. The range to which it can react is complex--massively so--but it is not performed by choice, it is performed by... well, instinct is the best word that pops to mind, though that suggests something too simplistic to work. Maybe per-programmed paradigmns works better.

 

I think it must be very specific indeed. The manipulations that causes ta'veren influenced events must be taking up lots and lots of perfectly coordinated "weaving" or "thread pulling". The Wheel touches everything that is, that could have been and will be. The right choices and the wrong ones are all included.

 

Perhaps specific--as you say the wheel touches everything, and is perfectly coordinated in its weaving. The point i'm trying to get accross is that its not specifically intended. The wheel has a goal, and is dextrous in its weave, particular in its method--but not concious in its methodology. It does not think to itself "I need Rand to win the Atha'an Miere, so ill push this moment". Instead it has a goal in which the light wins, which requires the atha'an Miere's aid--the push of that goal is what results in Harine's stupidity. Like a computer wanting to eradicate a virus and systematically eradicating everything with its file ending--it is not intentionally thinking "I need to destroy the large penis virus, so ill do this". It is reacting to set paremiters which indicate the presence of something unwelcome with a pre-described sequence of actions.

 

The Wheel is infinately complex in both its percieving of unwelcome realities and its reactions--but it is still not a specific rationale response--it is a specific pre-programmed response.

 

This is semantics at its best, but still important to understanding this scenario.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Which aspect of the Guide? I ask because the issue im facing here, with trying to address my comments, is that i dont entirely disagree with Roberts comment. Ta'veren would influence smaller events--within the scope of their ta'maral'ailen (which is the main point Robert and I disagree on, and seperate to this specific point), my issue is that i don't think think that comment by RJ refers to this. Each interpretation (as in Roberts about the far reaching effects of ta'veren on normal events, and me on the idea that RJ's comment refers to the idea that coincidences can occur normally without ta'veren).

The chapter "The Wheel and the Pattern" from the Guide. I quoted some things in the first two posts on the previous page. Especially the "Web of Destiny" quote seems to touch on this subject, at least in my opinion. If we were to assume some sort of scientific explanation (out of our own world), then quantum physics gives us some clues to how ta'veren could work. Spin up or spin down, some think that the reality splits into two new versions on every such outfall. Others think that there's only one "real" universe, and divine intervention causes one outfall. I think there are other speculative theories out there. I read about it in some magazine, I think. Could this be where RJ got the inspiration? Anyway, I think the ta'veren makes big things happen through manipulating the small and insignificant details.

 

 

 

 

 

None of that disagrees with my interpretation. In fact i cited several of those points myself. I never intended to give the impression i thought the wheel simple--i was just disagreeing with the conciousness of using the word 'choose'--what the wheel does is not simple, but it is not concious.

Sorry, then. I agree, it's not conscious. But it still makes something very, very close to "choices". Not like a true consciousness, though.

 

 

See i still disagree with that. First, it is not an AI--it is neither artificial, nor intelligent in the way AI suggests--as in, self aware or concious. It's complexity is no problem--the complexity of choice however is. It does not choose. It reacts. The range to which it can react is complex--massively so--but it is not performed by choice, it is performed by... well, instinct is the best word that pops to mind, though that suggests something too simplistic to work. Maybe per-programmed paradigmns works better.

I don't think an AI has to be self-aware. It doesn't have to have feelings. The Wheel might be like "the most advanced computer you can imagine", and still not be "artificially made". But I do think that the intelligence that it exhibits would be "artificial", in the sense that it is not "real" intelligence by a self-aware soul.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't disagree with Robert's claim except in scope--so if there are specific comments in the guide that sustain Robert's idea of the extent to which these less dramatic effects can be caused by ta'veren i'd like to know.

 

Well, there is this one ...

 

These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change.

 

Emphasis mine, of course.  (Guide p 14)  If a ta'veren can affect all "all life threads", then that would have to be unlimited by distance.  Again, this is stated only speculatively, by the non-omniscient "scholar" who is the "author" of the Guide, but it is at the very least indicative.

 

A ta'veren of that strength would be extraordinarily rare.  But Mat, Perrin, and Rand all are.  Ta'maral'ailen is the "Web of Destiny" woven by/around a ta'veren ... that sure sounds an awful lot like a mechanism of "fate" to me.  Without another mechanism to put in its place (and again, I don't think of the Wheel as a direct mechanism for weaving the Pattern any more than the power wheel on a loom is directly responsible for weaving the threads), then ta'veren is the mechanism of fate for those souls who need extraordinary things to happen, and so are made ta'veren by the Wheel.

 

The Wheel, in my conception of the WoT universe, serves the purpose of directing "energy" from the True Source into the world in different fashions.  The normal (and overwhelmingly influential one) is time itself.  Time functions as the mechanism for all ordinary events, and events within time are subject to the random influences of chance and chaos.  When the Wheel "decides" that a correction needs to made, it makes a soul ta'veren, to suspend the influence of chance on events.

 

It may be a common storytelling device, but a princess falling in love at first sight with a stranger who fell into her garden is HIGHLY unlikely.  That princess being a strong channeler who happens to make friends with that stranger's other friends who are also strong channelers is even more unlikely.  Etc etc.  Rand's life since leaving the Two Rivers has been one long string of extraordinarily unlikely events, falling in an astonishingly orderly sequence.  So has Mat's.  So has Perrin's.  To me, that is the essence of ta'veren, and its not limited by distance at all.

 

You could think of its range like the range of channeling.  Normally, a channeler is limited to the distance he or she can see.  But there are instances and techniques which allow the limits of distance to be either extended or overcome (Travelling, for instance).  Normally, a ta'veren's influence is limited in scope to a general vicinity.  But there are abnormally strong ta'veren whose range is much larger, even if the extended effects are more subtle.

[rhadamanthus]

How does an Aes Sedai-turned-damane work?  Damane are used as weapons, but Aes Sedai are bound by the oath rod to not use the OP as a weapon.  Hrmmmm.

[Mr Ares]

How does an Aes Sedai-turned-damane work? Damane are used as weapons, but Aes Sedai are bound by the oath rod to not use the OP as a weapon. Hrmmmm.

Week 21 Question: Just how can an Aes Sedai be a damane? Aren't they bound by the Third Oath: to not use the One Power as a weapon except to defend their lives, their Warder's life, or another sister's life? Wouldn't they be useless as damane to the Seanchan?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan are indeed useless as weapons, except against Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, because they are bound by the Three Oaths, and that limits their value considerably since being weapons is a major use for damane. Damane are used for other tasks, however, including finding ores for mining (Egwene was tested for this, remember; it's a very valuable, and fairly rare, ability), for some mining operations where it would be too dangerous or uneconomical to use human miners (bringing ores out of the ground and refining them using the Power), and in some construction projects, especially where something very large or with a need for added strength is envisioned. The first two both require a high ability in Earth, which has faded considerably on "this" side of the Aryth Ocean and to a smaller degree of the other side, but construction projects and others things, such as producing Sky Lights, are well within the abilities of collared Aes Sedai. The Three Oaths don't inhibit them there at all.

[rhadamanthus]

Thanks!

[ROB_88]

plus, some should be great for healing unless they are afraid of being touched by a damane trying to re-attach a leg

[Dark Justice]

I felt this thread was better than making a new one...

 

I have some questions hanging around in the back of my head, that I hoped someone could help me with..

 

Birgitte feels it is all wrong that she is ripped out of TAR. Couldnt someone (rand, Egwene or someone else) just create a gateway (or waygate,.. Never remember wich is wich) directly to TAR, and she could be born out as she "should"

 

Couldnt Rand bring a binder/oath rod to the black tower and have everyone unswear all previous oaths (like to DO) and swear fealty to him?

 

Someone question one of my questions in another thread. would the sanchean ogier also "leave" if the "book" was opened?

 

While supergirls were going to find the bowl of winds, the gholam and the dark sisters were waiting for them. How did they know where to be, and if they made a trap for them, why was it so badly organized?

 

We know Fain has some tricks up his sleeve, but how could he pull off making fog in the forest. (haddon mirk if im not mistaken.)

 

How did the Aiel Maiden (sounds like Iron Maiden, dosnt it... ;)) survive so long in Shagar Logoth?

 

I think I have more, but I forget everything once Im actually in front of a computer to ask it....

[RobertAlexWillis]

Birgitte feels it is all wrong that she is ripped out of TAR. Couldnt someone (rand, Egwene or someone else) just create a gateway (or waygate,.. Never remember wich is wich) directly to TAR, and she could be born out as she "should"

 

No.

 

Couldnt Rand bring a binder/oath rod to the black tower and have everyone unswear all previous oaths (like to DO) and swear fealty to him?

 

If he had one, and they'd agree to that, then yes, it would be possible.  But he doesn't have one, and I doubt they'd all be willing at this point.

 

Someone question one of my questions in another thread. would the sanchean ogier also "leave" if the "book" was opened?

 

Yes. (Thats my opinion)

 

While supergirls were going to find the bowl of winds, the gholam and the dark sisters were waiting for them. How did they know where to be, and if they made a trap for them, why was it so badly organized?

 

Sammael had his people working on finding the stash before the supergirls, and apparently they found it first.  But not very much before the supergirls.  It almost felt like the trap was thrown together at the last second.

 

We know Fain has some tricks up his sleeve, but how could he pull off making fog in the forest. (haddon mirk if im not mistaken.)

 

He gots funky powers, meboy.  Its almost like he has a pocket mini-Mashadar at his disposal.  Thats one scary dude.

 

How did the Aiel Maiden (sounds like Iron Maiden, dosnt it... ) survive so long in Shagar Logoth?

 

Because the script called for her to.  When RJ was asked this question he talked about her survival skills, and how she got absorbed by the city so it recognized her as one of its own, but that always felt a little contrived, to me.

 

[mb]

The fog in the forest, I guess you are referring to when Rand was fighting that blademaster in Crown of Swords.  The fog was actually Rand; the location was actually near Cairhien, Haddon Mirk was too far south from the location.

 

How did the Aiel girl survive so long in Shaidar Logoth?  The Aiel are tough people, that is probably the reason.

 

[Dark Justice]

Ok. Thanx. That was somewhat helpful..

 

How does mindtraps "really" work. Does it really controll you? Cause Moggy was pretty much able to do what she wanted to. Is it just a "I can kill you whenever I want to" kind of power?

 

The Dark sister that was captivated by the Shaido, claimed to be on level with Alviarin (sp?).

She said she was one of the few that new who the cloaked "person" leading their meetings. Was this Ishy?

 

 

[Dark Justice]

The fog was actually Rand; the location was actually near Cairhien, Haddon Mirk was to far south from the location.

 

I do not think so. Im pretty sure it was Padan Fain...

[mb]

I was wrong on the fog being Rand, yet it was not Fain either.

The Encyclopaedia site tells that it was a miasma (bubble of evil).  http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/acos/ch36.html

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I was wrong on the fog being Rand, yet it was not Fain either.

The Encyclopaedia site tells that is was a miasma (bubble of evil).

 

Thats correct, I had forgotten that.  But yes, the location was far north of Haddon Mirk in Cairhien.  High Lord Darlin usually stayed in Haddon Mirk, but he was in Cairhien courting Caraline Damodred.

 

How does mindtraps "really" work. Does it really controll you? Cause Moggy was pretty much able to do what she wanted to. Is it just a "I can kill you whenever I want to" kind of power?

 

They only "control" you if they get broken.  Until then, its essentially a constant threat; its a means to insure good behavior.

 

The Dark sister that was captivated by the Shaido, claimed to be on level with Alviarin (sp?).

 

No, Galina Casban was the Highest of the Red Ajah.  While she was Black Ajah, she was never head of the Black Ajah, although she was on their Council of Thirteen.

 

She said she was one of the few that new who the cloaked "person" leading their meetings. Was this Ishy?

 

No, if I remember the passage you're referring to, it was Alviarin.  It means that Galina knew who Alviarin was.  The members of the Council were not supposed to know each others identities, nor were they supposed to know the identity of the Head of their Ajah.

 

[Dark Justice]

Her place on the Supreme Council of the Black Ajah was next to that of Alviarin herself, and she was one of only

three who knew the name of the woman who led their hooded meetings

-Spears, CoS

 

This is the passage Im refering to.. And it does say next to that of Alviarin herself..

 

 

[Bela]

The Encyclopedia seems to have gotten it wrong. Fain made the fog.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Encyclopedia seems to have gotten it wrong. Fain made the fog.

 

Actually, no, I remember RJ saying that it was a bubble of evil, the timing was just unusual (probably because Rand's ta'veren was set to high that day).

 

I'll see if I can find it.