Equal yet not

[Mr Ares]

Oh no.  Shaidar Haran = Moridin = Taim?  One theory to explain them all!  ;D

And in the darkness bind them? Is this same person Demandred and Rand as well, or would that just be silly?

 

Ishamael thought he was Ba'alzamon

Is there anything to say he wasn't?

why cant Moridin think he's a Superfade? There is evidence for it although it is sketchy, but NOTHING to prove it wrong.

Aside from the fact that it's bloody ridiculous.

[Hybrid]

Oh no.  Shaidar Haran = Moridin = Taim?  One theory to explain them all!  ;D

And in the darkness bind them? Is this same person Demandred and Rand as well, or would that just be silly?

Not at all.  Since there's no direct statement that Demandred is a different person than Moridin, they must be one and the same by default.  Same for Rand.  In fact, the trick to WOT is that all the characters are the multiple personalities of one man.

[Mr Ares]

Oh no.  Shaidar Haran = Moridin = Taim?  One theory to explain them all!  ;D

And in the darkness bind them? Is this same person Demandred and Rand as well, or would that just be silly?

Not at all.  Since there's no direct statement that Demandred is a different person than Moridin, they must be one and the same by default.  Same for Rand.  In fact, the trick to WOT is that all the characters are the multiple personalities of one man.

Or woman?

[Hybrid]

Oh no.  Shaidar Haran = Moridin = Taim?  One theory to explain them all!  ;D

And in the darkness bind them? Is this same person Demandred and Rand as well, or would that just be silly?

Not at all.  Since there's no direct statement that Demandred is a different person than Moridin, they must be one and the same by default.  Same for Rand.  In fact, the trick to WOT is that all the characters are the multiple personalities of one man.

Or woman?

Yes, depending on how you look at it.

[Luckers]

I think the mistake you are making here is assuming Isam & Luc both are joined in Slayer 100%. From what I can see, they share one mind. Even though I also never saw that on-line the Mind is a very distinct part of a Thread. I usually only read stuff about Souls & Bodies... but the Mind is the third factor. Basically, if we could assume that Slayer was made up of just Isam and Luc, you could say Slayer is 5 (2 bodies, 2 souls ,1 mind) where Luc and Isam seperately were 6. Slayer has to choose which of the two he feels like being; He's not the two of them at the same time. They share eachother memories, because 'those never fade', but only one actually 'is' Slayer at any given time.

 

I don't see how thats relevant. It is interesting, and im big on philosophical discussion so i'd love a 'what is Slayer' thread if you wanted to start one.

 

But irrespective the Dark One took two souls, melded them, and the resulting being is capable of doing things neither of the original souls could do. That by nature means the Dark One added something to the mix, which directly means he didn't simply 'create by removing'.

 

I think Fain is a case in my favor;

Like you said, all we know of what Ba'alzamon did to Fain was distill his mind and feed him back a section that was 'relevant to the cause' more condensed.

Compare it to removing your ability to smell anything, but leave and gift-wrap the smell of manure. I'm betting you'd smell it really fast and develop a nose for it.

Nothing was added to Fain. Parts that the Dark One figured irrelevant to Fains task (*sniff* out the Dragon) were removed. Condensing other parts of Fain is not creating, it's packing 'what is left behind' tightly together.

 

Firstly, your implication that it was Ishamael that changed Fain is wrong. It has been both directly stated by RJ and implied within the text that the Dark One took a speciic hand in that incident.

 

Beyond that, people do not have the ability to sese where other people are accross miles--accute sense of smell or no.

 

I do not see any way in which Fain serves your point.

 

Mordeth is a 'creature' of creation. Mordeth needs 'things of creation' to replace with his evil. Mordeth cannot remove what is partly unmade & twisted by Shai'tan already. The part of Fain mind that Shai'tan distilled and fed back is beyond Mordeths reach thus preventing 'Fain' from completely being removed. That's why Fain can still feel where Rand is after all this time.

In essence, Mordeth his evil works by replacement (of what can be replaced; creation), while Shai'tans evil works by removal (of creation itself).

 

Assumption, and simplistic at that. Where is your evidence?

 

Are you trying to tell me that the ability from a creature of the Dark One to remove someones soul & life is a case in your favour?

 

Certainly--its an ability absent in either of the genetic backgrounds that made the Draghkar, ergo it was added. The Dark One can give--that his gifts and creations serve his own twisted mentality is no surprise, but he can do it.

 

I don't know how a Draghkar is created exactly, anymore then you do, so don't ask me to explain the impossible please.

 

I don't care for you to explain it--you don't need to, nor do i. The existence of a trait that exists in neither of the original specimens is proof of addition--how it happens is quite irrelevant, that it happens is fact.

 

 

And since I think Shai'tan is actually the absence of anything, how is it such a big leap to think that these creatures are (partly) humans carrying 'absence' in certain parts of their very being? They just carry it in different places then -say- the Myrddraal, for instance. That has different results.

 

It's not a big leap, if you think that. The leap is to think that.

 

 

Sorry, my friend, but 'no'.

 

First off; tropical??

It's warm and damp alright, but a swamp was what it was compared to by characters in the book.

 

You do realise that swamps are only found in tropical settings, and that they contain the most diverse and active life on the planet?

 

Come ON man. I can't believe I have to invest time in showing you -of all people- that the Blight is DYING.

"The Blight"... the name Jordan decided to give it, is like a clue you can not walk around, in and by itself. Don't make me quote a dictionairy please.

 

And i can't believe i have to invest time in telling you that your own innane assumptions mean jack. The direct stated scenes in the books show an incredibly diverse and active ecosystem--end of game.

 

As for dictionaries, champ--a blight is an unseemly or unpleasent area on the face of something wholesome. The Blight qualifies in every way, and nothing in that requires that it is dying.

 

Straight from the books;

 

Quote

There were a few leaves now, on trees that were not evergreen. Rand reached out to touch a branch, and stopped with his hand short of the leaves. Sickly yellow [leaves] mottled the red of the new growth, and black flecks like disease....

 

...“Then we’re in the Blight?” Perrin said. Strangely, he did not sound frightened.

“Just the fringe,” Lan said grimly.

 

Straight from the books;

 

Quote

Mile by mile the corruption of the Blight became more apparent. Leaves covered the trees in ever greater profusion, but stained and spotted with yellow and black, with livid red streaks like blood poisoning. Every leaf and creeper seemed bloated, ready to burst at a touch. Flowers hung on trees and weeds in a parody of spring, sickly pale and pulpy, waxen things that appeared to be rotting while Rand watched. When he breathed through his nose, the sweet stench of decay, heavy and thick, sickened him; when he tried breathing through his mouth, he almost gagged. The air tasted like a mouthful of spoiled meat.

 

Straight from the books;

 

Quote

As the mountains drew closer, so did the true Blight. Where a leaf had been spotted black and mottled yellow before, now foliage fell wetly while he watched, breaking apart from the weight of its own corruption. The trees themselves were tortured, crippled things, twisted branches clawing at the sky as if begging mercy from some power that refused to hear. Ooze slid like pus from bark cracked and split. As if nothing truly solid was left to them [wow.. absence anyone??? another strong RJ hint], the trees seemed to tremble from the passage of the horses over the ground.

 

Straight from the books;

 

Quote

The Green Man had held back the Blight, but already the Blight was killing what he had made.

 

Thriving ..woot woot.

It's like saying Chernobyl is a thriving ecosystem because of the diversity of the mutations.

 

 

Umm... yes, it is exactly like that--the blight is nasty place, but it is thriving with life--seriously, all your quotes are pointless, we already know the nature of the life in the blight--but despite that, its still there, and in great number--or if you want I'll recite your own quote for you.

 

Leaves covered the trees in ever greater profusion

 

You do understand what that means, right?

 

That the Blight contains twisted parodies of what life manages to produce, is not a manifestation of Shai'tans creative power. They are a result of Shai'tan removing life. It is creation clinging to this twilight-zone between nothingness & creation, that provides what strange life there is in the Blight mostly (shadowspawn aside). Else this place would be the Blasted Lands. And that would be Shai'tans direct work.

 

Firstly, i never suggested the Blight represented an example of Shai'tain's creative powers, i said that your idea that the blight existed because shai'tan had sucked the life out of it and that it was barely alive was wrong.

 

Your theory is empty words in direct contradiction to the reality witnessed--i get that you have this romantic idea where shai'tan is the embodiement of destruction and bound to such, but its simply not accurate. At all.

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 06, 2008, 07:30:26 AM

As for the Blasted Lands, i agree they are desolate of life--and yes, i'd say thats because the Dark One sucked the life out of those lands. They may even be the future of the Blight,...

 

Thats exactly what I'm saying...

 

Yes, me too. Which is why i said it. I'm just pointing out that he's not bound to do only that.

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 06, 2008, 07:30:26 AM

... though you have no evidence to suggest that, no comments that indicate they are encoaching on the Blight... but i still see no way you can claim that the Blight is what it is because its had the life sucked out of it. It's thriving with life.

 

See quotes above. The life that IS present are what creation comes up with, twisted by the absence of elements needed for normal life. Not Shai'tan directly.

 

Yes, i saw them, how precisely do they prove (or even suggest) your theory?

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 06, 2008, 07:30:26 AM

Quote

I think the evidence is in the books. Nothing can destroy Heartstone. No power can harm it. Then perhaps the absence of power? The touch of the absence of anything?

Can you think of another way?

 

Sure, the Dark One literally has the strength to break the unbreakable. He's godlike, they can do stuff like that.

Yeeeeaaaah riiight.

So, he needs humans to do the rest, right? I'f he so 'god-like' he can just break the strongest material around that creation can conjure up, then why is he still on the 'other side' of creation?

 

Apparently so--need i point out though that the very fabrc of reality, by nature, is presumably stronger than a minor aspect of reality functionally created by humankind, and who's 'strength' is stated within the scope of humankind?

 

Which is irrelevant. You arrogantly asked for an alterior option to the Dark One sucking energies from the seals. Your exact words were "Can you think of another way?"

 

By the way, you constantly use italicized words in what i presume is expressing your belief that your argument should be apparent to others. It is not, and i would suggest you keep in mind that just because you like an idea does not make it logical, viable or inherently true. It seems the major basis of where you fall wrong; you, in your words "like to think something is true" and proceed to state it as such. Unfortunately the world doesn't work like that. Sorry.

 

 

 

What part about Heartstone (and thus the seals) being 'unbreakable by any power' is not a very specific clue.

 

Correction--unbreakable by any power known to man. The Dark One's power is not known to man--mankind has never seen it attacking cuendillar, until now.

 

So yes, the dark one sucking energy from the seals to break them is one viable idea. Him simply breaking them is another, and there is no evidence to suggest either. Sorry mate.

 

This is trying to overcomplicate a very simple answer.

 

In this case, the exact opposite of Matter is Anti-Matter.

Power versus absence of that very phenominum.

 

As an essentially flawed analogy, but the concept might be easier to grasp;

If nothing opens a door by pushing, try pulling?

 

No, its trying to point out to you that your assumed answer has no evidence--that you think it the simple and clear answer is nice for you. You have no evidence however, therefore you assumption that we should agree is presumptive at best, and arrogant at worst.

 

And, by your description, by what evidence do you state that the Dark One couldn't push the door down. Statements about cuendillar come from mankind, and mankind has never seen the Dark One's strength put against cuendillar... what is 'unbreakable' to mankind might merely be 'a four thousand year effort' to a god-like being like Shai'tan.

 

Do you see no why your assumption is just that--an assumption.

 

I thought you were a writer..?

Since when could clever writing not be proof in fiction?

RJ tried very hard to keep some key cards up his sleeve to the very last, Luckers.

He doesn't want his readers to reach the peek of his mountain before he wrote about the view up there.

He wants his Tarmon Gai'don to be a series of "Gasp, WOW" moments.

The bad part is, that I feel that I'm them up for him by posting all this stuff.

Ah well, I've been silent for very very long.

I figured, "What better time then right before AMoL"?

 

So, let me get this straight--you state the winds imply significance because it doesn't touch Myrdraal and that they represent time. I point out that they exist as a tactile physical reality, something within the books that exists in its own rights, and you twist around saying now that RJ kept the real purpose of the winds for a gasp moment.

 

Well, you're right, if RJ secretly misled us with the winds in order to, at this moment here, prove you, Mik, right... well i would gasp.

 

Short of that i maintain that you have no basis for your position. And yes, i am a writer, i understand very well the use of language and metaphor.

 

I removed a lot of text, because of the time I have left, but with this quote on Myrddraal is where I believe you go wrong.

 

Distinct individuals?

Myrddraal? You know, the creatures as if comming from the same mold over and over? The creatures where the word for one or a thousand is still the same; Myrddraal. There is no plural. Just singular.

You thought that was just for fun?

 

Firstly--do you claim knowledge about how pluralism is used in the Old Tongue? If so, do you have knowledge of how its used in French? I'm about to fail an exam. What about Vietnamese--that ones particularily difficult, because its a tonal language.

 

Secondly, we've seen Myrdraal are distinct, with their own personalities. Fain even tortures one into betraying the shadow and obeying him--they ave a sense of self-preservation, and thus a sense of self. Yes, they may look all alike to us, but ive heard white people say the same of asian people.

 

Quote from: TEotW, Chapter 18 - The Caemlyn Road

The [three] Myrddraal’s black swords rose as one; Trollocs boiled down the slope, thick, triumphant cries rising, catchpoles bobbing above as they ran.

…/ /…

Yet as if the ground were not rearing all around them, the Myrddraal moved forward in a line, their dead-black horses never missing a step, every hoof in unison. Trollocs rolled on the ground all about the black steeds, howling and grabbing at the hillside that heaved them up, but the Myrddraal came slowly on.

 

Soldiers march in step too. Your point?

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 06, 2008, 07:30:26 AM

Whatever else they are, they are living distinct individuals.

 

Alive?

Is that why they are Neverborn? Is that why they thrash around after they.. erm.. 'die'..?

 

Yes, because WOLVES can be relied upon for a technical understanding of the metaphysical state of Myrdraal.

 

 

See what i did there. I can emphasise words too. Only, i don't like to do so, i think its tacky and implies that the other person should believe as i do.

 

Luckers. Seriously. Myrddraal are far from living individuals.

You thinking they are is where the rest of your arguments go wrong.

If memory serves me right, the three Myrddraal dealing with the bandits who caught the three damsels act in a way that suggests they aren't individuals at all.

 

Yes, and all asian people look alike. Fact is, we've seen individualism from Myrdraal. Don't know how many more times i have to repeat that.

 

Maybe the Borg share a resemblance somewhat; would you want to call a drone a distinct individual?

 

No, they share a singular conciousness. Thats why they call it the Borg Collective. Myrdraal do not.

 

Myrddraal remind me of the demon Legion; 

(Mark 5:9:)

"And he asked him, What is thy name?

And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many"

 

Irrelevant. Myrdraal are what they've been sated to be. and that includes individuality.

 

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 06, 2008, 07:30:26 AM

Quote

You think the fear caused by their gaze comes from the animal contamination?

Or is it human? I never saw it in a Trolloc...

 

No, my guess is that the fear effect comes from the presense of the True Power in their makeup--but thats a guess. And true or not, none of this makes any sort of suggestion about their nature, which is the point. You make huge leaps in your reasoning. It's unsustainable.

 

I think it's a shame you see it that way.

You mean "The so called True Power", right?

What you call 'huge leaps', I've read between the lines in the Wheel of Time.

You're stuck in your own mind.

 

Ummm, no. I mean the literal true power. As in the energy the Dark One creates. And what i call huge leaps are unsustained, unsupported guesses with no basis in fact--your reading between the lines.

 

There are no Aes Sedai. There is only the brilliant mind who made them up.

And he is a master of what he wrote is said about the Aes Sedai;

They do not lie, but the truth they tell you is not always the truth you think it is.

You don't give Robert Jordan enough credit for not reading between the lines enough.

 

You stopped looking where he expected everyone to stop looking. Where he knew everyone would stop.

Patterns within patterns.

 

So now, RJ wanted you to fancifully make things up. Nice dude, nice.

 

In fact, it appeared to be an exact quote; Myrddraal are partly outside of Reality.

 

I know. Thats why I stated it.

 

Again, the answer is really simple; what -by definition- lies outside Reality? Nothingness

 

Not so, we know that reality exists in multiple layers within the wheel, outside one can lay another. And the comment and reality of Myrdraal only requires that they exist slightly outside the reality in which the books take place.

 

Oh.. and Shai'tan, but he is the Father of Lies, A hollow promise of power; the Lord of Nothing.

 

The Lord of Nothing is your assumption. The books clearly display the extents and existence of his powers.

 

Unless you believe him... and give Him (your) Power. Unless you let him tie that string to you.

Peoples faith in his existence, in his power gives him power.

 

We're not talking about the Devil. The Dark One has power irrespective of human belief in him.

 

Why do you think Shai'tan was found AFTER Elan Morin wrote his famous books in the AoL; a lot of people believing the words written by Elan Morin GAVE Shai'tan power. Enough power to be sensed beyond the borders of Reality. Or did you think RJ gave us those few lines about Elan Morin writing those books and the effect those had on certain groups for kicks?

 

Now thats just utterly absurd. The Dark One has his own source of power. He is not fed by peoples dark thoughts.  seriously i thought there was a limit to your baseless assumptions, but wow.

 

Unless you can come up with another decent explanation why after hunderds of years in a sophisticated society with millions of channelers around, all of a sudden Shai'tans "True" Power could be sensed?

 

Umm, how bout, oh, i dont know, the FACT that Mierin and Beidomon were looking for it.

 

Why do you think Ishamael made sure all his works from the AoL were destroyed?

 

Mmm Hmm. Proof now, thanks.

 

If you are suggesting that a part of Myrddraal exists in parralel worlds, then I'd have to say you are dead wrong. Or are you suggesting that Shayol Ghul is partly in an if-world as well?

 

No, I'm saying Myrdraal exist partly outside the reality of the books--and that that doesn't mean outside reality altogether since there are millions of realities in play. Likely they touch upon the place between threads, the place people skim through, and dreamers touch to find other dreams.

 

But, that being said, Shayol Ghoul is another reality. RJ directly stated the the blight and everything north has no reflection in TAR because it is a different reality.

 

There is a mirror in Ishamaels 'TAR-room' at the slopes of Shayol Ghul, and guess how Rand saw himself when he looked in it when he first got there.

 

Don't guess, I'll tell you; blurred.

That's not because Shayol Ghul lies partly in an if-world, but because Shayol Ghul is the closest thing in our reality that connects to where Shai'tan resides; outside Reality.

 

 

Wherever Rand went, it was not Shayol Ghul. Aside from which... what the? Seriously, there is no logic in that at all.

 

Hey Luckers, here's a thought.

Why not entertain the idea that some of what I'm saying could be right for a minute or two. And see how you could help the argument...?

Just look at WoT in a different light for a change. Even if you feel it's foolishness right now.

We're both looking for the same answers... just from different angles..

Hey Luckers, here's a thought.

Why not entertain the idea that some of what I'm saying could be right for a minute or two. And see how you could help the argument...?

Just look at WoT in a different light for a change. Even if you feel it's foolishness right now.

We're both looking for the same answers... just from different angles..

 

 

I do... always... before i answer. Thats in part why ive been so critical. Your claims have no basis in the books, and directly contradict some facts. No way around it man, try though i might. I get that you've come up with nice ideas to explain events-- i do that too, remind me to tell you my 'how the first age became the age of legends' theory.

 

But to state these feelings as fact? To expect others to see it?

 

I'm sorry mate, i do try.

 

 

 

[Hybrid]

ive heard white people say the same of asian people.

And vice versa as well.  ;)

[benr]

time would become linear, and free will would be restored

I disagree. RJ said Shai'tan was a control freak. Why would such a being allow the existence of free will? He is the denial of any will but His own. That the Wheel exists beyond His control is an affront to Him. That is why He seeks to control/destroy it. Destroying the Wheel doesn't just destroy cyclical time, it destroys time. No linearity. No time at all. There never was and there never will be. Unless Shai'tan gives it.

 

The Wheel is the act of control; it is total control.  To destroy the wheel destroys that control.  Linear time is the ultimate chaos; free will is the ultimate chaos.  It seems that the Creator is the true control freak; unless the Creator and Shai'tan are actually two sides of the same coin.

[Fryn]

time would become linear, and free will would be restored

I disagree. RJ said Shai'tan was a control freak. Why would such a being allow the existence of free will? He is the denial of any will but His own. That the Wheel exists beyond His control is an affront to Him. That is why He seeks to control/destroy it. Destroying the Wheel doesn't just destroy cyclical time, it destroys time. No linearity. No time at all. There never was and there never will be. Unless Shai'tan gives it.

 

The Wheel is the act of control; it is total control.  To destroy the wheel destroys that control.  Linear time is the ultimate chaos; free will is the ultimate chaos.  It seems that the Creator is the true control freak; unless the Creator and Shai'tan are actually two sides of the same coin.

 

Thats what always caught me as odd as well. With the wheel and the DO free there is no true free will because the pattern strives for continuity, yet if the DO is all about control then there would be no free will either. So where does that leave the people? Are they just pawns that never get to make a real decision? If man kind is doomed to face the same lifecycle under the influence of the wheel I fail to see how that is any worse than if the DO is in control. Basically it would mean mankind in the wheel is in a prison similar to how the machines simulated a world for humans in the matrix.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers

ive heard white people say the same of asian people.

 

And vice versa as well. 

 

Nonsense, white people are easy to tell apart. Just judge the degree of their arrogance and you can figure out precisely who they are. Myself, I'm a 20,000.

 

Heh.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Quote from: Dreadlord on November 07, 2008, 02:20:46 AM

Ishamael thought he was Ba'alzamon

Is there anything to say he wasn't?

Quote

why cant Moridin think he's a Superfade? There is evidence for it although it is sketchy, but NOTHING to prove it wrong.

Aside from the fact that it's bloody ridiculous

 

And when was the last time you came up with a decent theory on anything, Ares? All I ever see you do is ridicule other people. At least some of us are willing to push the boat out and actually voice our thoughts. Some ideas ARE rediculous; like your idea that there is nothing to prove Ishamael isnt the Dark One.

 

Tell me one solid thing that proves Moridin isnt Shaidar. One thing that cant be countered, and I will leave it at that. And while youre at it, come up with your own theory once in a while, if you have the brain capacity.

[Luckers]

Alright, try transposing chapters 20 and 40 of aCoS. In the first Moridin watches the Shaido, and in the latter Shaidar Haren does the same. In the first the watcher refers to himself as a "he", in the latter the myrdraal refers to itself as an "it". Consider the variences, the specifically stated saa when Moridin considers intervening with Graendal and the lack thereof when Shaidar Haren burns the stick. The screaming of the world when Moridin uses the True Power to travel versus Shaidar Haren turning to seek a shadow that would allow him to move.

 

The very language itself breaks this theory. I'm sorry mate--go look at it. It's out of the question. Utterly.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Behold my stubbornness.

 

Ok Luckers, you seem clever enough to think autside the box so lets see if you can follow this.

 

RJs style of writing, as we all know, is one where the reader reads the PoV characters thoughts. In other words, you see what they think (including how they think of themselves-Moridin is a he in his own mind, Shaidar is an it in its own, whether real or an alter ego), you see what they see, you are told what he notices, and you get a feel for what that character believes is possible. Bare with me.

 

My theory on Moridin and Shaidar is this; originally, Moridin created an alter ego in order to pull the other Forsaken into line, and the only way to do so is by using drastic measures, so the alter ego has to be something unique. A Superfade. Yet, as we all know, the True Power has side effects, including messing with the mind. We saw this in Ishamael, who actually believed he was Ba'alzamon. Now, with Ishamaels identity issues in mind remember we are talking about Moridin who is the same guy, who is again overusing the True Power. So, I believe that at certain points Moridin actually believes he is the Superfade, just like Ishamael thought he was the Dark One.

 

Just read the bit before I said bare with me, on about what a character believes is possible. Step into my theory and become Moridin BELEIVING he is Shaidar Haran, a Fade that is more than the rest. Any Fade can teleport through shadows, no Fade can Travel with the True Power. Moridin, thinking he is said Superfade, doesnt entertain the idea of Travelling with the True Power because Fades cant. If you think something isnt possible, you dont try it, because you dont know how, right? Moridin as Shaidar obviously wouldnt be thinking correctly if he really believes he is said Superfade, so judgements on whats possible and what isnt begin to blur, even for a channeler, or a Superfade. He thinks he is a Superfade, but not even a Superfade can Travel.

 

Now, when people say the female Chosen who were abused by Shaidar would notice the difference in height in relation to the illusion, that isnt a valid arguement either. Even if they DID notice that it was an illusion, they were shielded with the True Power if I am right, so what the hell could they do even if they knew?

 

Lastly I make a reference to RJs comment about the Dark Ones power being in "his creature" 24/7. That doesnt write the theory off either. This creature could have been Moridin, who can channel the True Power 24/7. Even if he has to ask for permission, the ability is there 24/7 until Shaitan denies it. And the shadowy form of Shaitan doesnt write it off either, because who is to say that the appearance of the creature will change? A reasonable way for the Dark One to project part of himself into Moridin is him overusing the True Power, the essence of the Dark One-there must be some connection between Moridin and the Dark One just like any other Chosen, and that connection could be how the shadowy form gets from the Dark One and into Moridin.

 

You guys need to open your minds and search for something solid to write the theory off. Im not saying it is definite, but it is 100% Wheel-of-Time-realistic and there are several hints to make it a possibilty. If anyone is going to reply to just say "Its ridiculous," or "You're wrong," then you might as well come up with arguements against. Then I will listen

[vasu619]

You know, when you propose a theory, you can't say, "There's nothing to disprove it so, it's probable." You've got to back it up with evidence. Russell's teapot anyone?

[Guest Dreadlord]

No but when someone posts a theory you cant just say its wrong for this reason and just ignore counterarguements while still assuming you're right. I acknowledge the possibility that Im wrong, but I meant that until someone proves it wrong indefinitely I will still acknowledge it as a possibility, BECAUSE nothing thats happened in the books has written it off

[Hybrid]

No but when someone posts a theory you cant just say its wrong for this reason and just ignore counterarguements while still assuming you're right. I acknowledge the possibility that Im wrong, but I meant that until someone proves it wrong indefinitely I will still acknowledge it as a possibility, BECAUSE nothing thats happened in the books has written it off

Dreadlord, you still have failed to provide any framework for me to work with.  vasu619's point is extremely important.  Until you give me any evidence that your theory is correct, I will refuse to believe in it.

 

My theory on Moridin and Shaidar is this; originally, Moridin created an alter ego in order to pull the other Forsaken into line, and the only way to do so is by using drastic measures, so the alter ego has to be something unique. A Superfade.

100% speculation.  In addition, Shaidar Haran existed before Moridin did.  He appears in the prologue of LOC, and we have possible accounts of him even earlier from other Forsaken (I'm not sure what the exact timeline is).  Moridin doesn't appear until later.  Shaidar Haran from these accounts is acting the part of the Dark One's major domo, if you will.  He's escorting people to the Pit of Doom, speaking to them on the behalf of the Dark One, etc.  In addition, the Dark One says that Shaidar Haran speaks for him.  But he doesn't say anything about Moridin, who is his Nae'blis.

 

We saw this in Ishamael, who actually believed he was Ba'alzamon.

The actual question is really what Ba'alzamon signifies to Ishamael.  Ishamael is a philosopher, and he believes he is the incarnation of the Dark One's champion.  We don't have any evidence that he actually believes that he is the Dark One himself, just that he understands the Dark One's goal and his will is the same as the Dark One's will.  Well, he does understand the Dark One's goal, but his will is not always the same as the Dark One's - he has an obsession with turning the Dragon.  And this brings us to Shaidar Haran, who has no philosophical thoughts and who isn't obsessed with turning Rand al'Thor to the Shadow.

 

Just read the bit before I said bare with me, on about what a character believes is possible. Step into my theory and become Moridin BELEIVING he is Shaidar Haran, a Fade that is more than the rest. Any Fade can teleport through shadows, no Fade can Travel with the True Power. Moridin, thinking he is said Superfade, doesnt entertain the idea of Travelling with the True Power because Fades cant. If you think something isnt possible, you dont try it, because you dont know how, right? Moridin as Shaidar obviously wouldnt be thinking correctly if he really believes he is said Superfade, so judgements on whats possible and what isnt begin to blur, even for a channeler, or a Superfade. He thinks he is a Superfade, but not even a Superfade can Travel.

This is more speculation, and your apparent analysis of Moridin is schizophrenia, which I highly doubt.  In addition, Shaidar Haran is tied to Shayol Ghul somehow.  Moridin is not, and has never noted this effect.  Do the other Myrdraal have this same weakness?  I don't recall so.  So how would that be Moridin "believing" in his Fadeness?

 

You guys need to open your minds and search for something solid to write the theory off. Im not saying it is definite, but it is 100% Wheel-of-Time-realistic and there are several hints to make it a possibilty. If anyone is going to reply to just say "Its ridiculous," or "You're wrong," then you might as well come up with arguements against. Then I will listen

And you need to search for something solid to back your theory up.  So far, it consists of a series of assumptions and speculation, some of it rather ridiculous.

[vasu619]

Yes, what I am saying is, that your theory can't be disproved solidly...but that doesn't make it any less...ridiculous. I'm sorry, but I don't think Moridin "thinks" he's the superfade. He has gained some sense of mental balance since his reincarnation.

 

My theory on Moridin and Shaidar is this; originally, Moridin created an alter ego in order to pull the other Forsaken into line, and the only way to do so is by using drastic measures, so the alter ego has to be something unique. A Superfade. Yet, as we all know, the True Power has side effects, including messing with the mind. We saw this in Ishamael, who actually believed he was Ba'alzamon. Now, with Ishamaels identity issues in mind remember we are talking about Moridin who is the same guy, who is again overusing the True Power. So, I believe that at certain points Moridin actually believes he is the Superfade, just like Ishamael thought he was the Dark One.

 

He doesn't NEED to pull the other forsaken into line. He's Nae'blis. "We obey and serve" and all that. Also, could I have a confirmation on whether you say Moridin thinks he's Shaidar, but he's not, or whether he IS Shaidar?

 

Just read the bit before I said bare with me, on about what a character believes is possible. Step into my theory and become Moridin BELEIVING he is Shaidar Haran, a Fade that is more than the rest. Any Fade can teleport through shadows, no Fade can Travel with the True Power. Moridin, thinking he is said Superfade, doesnt entertain the idea of Travelling with the True Power because Fades cant. If you think something isnt possible, you dont try it, because you dont know how, right? Moridin as Shaidar obviously wouldnt be thinking correctly if he really believes he is said Superfade, so judgements on whats possible and what isnt begin to blur, even for a channeler, or a Superfade. He thinks he is a Superfade, but not even a Superfade can Travel.

So are you saying Moridin doesn't travel with the TP? But he does, right after he sees Aviendha unravelling the web.

 

Now, when people say the female Chosen who were abused by Shaidar would notice the difference in height in relation to the illusion, that isnt a valid arguement either. Even if they DID notice that it was an illusion, they were shielded with the True Power if I am right, so what the hell could they do even if they knew?

 

They could think about it in their POV.

 

Lastly I make a reference to RJs comment about the Dark Ones power being in "his creature" 24/7. That doesnt write the theory off either. This creature could have been Moridin, who can channel the True Power 24/7. Even if he has to ask for permission, the ability is there 24/7 until Shaitan denies it. And the shadowy form of Shaitan doesnt write it off either, because who is to say that the appearance of the creature will change? A reasonable way for the Dark One to project part of himself into Moridin is him overusing the True Power, the essence of the Dark One-there must be some connection between Moridin and the Dark One just like any other Chosen, and that connection could be how the shadowy form gets from the Dark One and into Moridin.

 

Once again, not disprovable, but baseless.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ridiculous only because nobody else agrees. I bet if Luckers had come up with it people would love the idea. Its 100% possible in WoT, its realistic, and Moridin has a motive for it. Anyway, agree to disagree and all that, some people arent open-minded enough to entertain new ideas.

[Jethro]

I must admit the idea is compelling, I have thought for a while there is something about a certain scene that makes me wonder-the one where Moridin holds one of the Chosen, and he runs at a wall with them and the next thing they know theyre somewhere else, stood with Shaidar and theres no sign of Moridin. The one thing that stops me in my tracks is the Shaidar POV we have had-if Moridin was Shaidar all along, and sometimes believed he really is Shaidar as opposed to it being a disguise, why would he feel weak for being away from Shayol Ghul when he actually thinks hes Shaidar, but doesnt feel it when he is himself? I'd hardly say its a ridiculous idea, but without anything solid for or against it all I can say is that there is only one way to find out and that requires us all to be patient.

 

Hows that for diplomatic!!

[Thor]

This is what I think.  The 'DO' and the 'Creator' have this contest for thousands of years per round.  Whoever wins is the 'Creator' and imprisons the other one.

 

There, all mysteries are resolved!

[Mik]

Ridiculous only because nobody else agrees. I bet if Luckers had come up with it people would love the idea

Hey, I agree with Moridin & Shaidar Haran being one creature.

I do disagree with your whole reasoning though, Dready.

In fact, I believe Ishamael/ Moridin tries everything to hide that he's also a Fade from the rest of the Forsaken.

 

Alright, try transposing chapters 20 and 40 of aCoS. In the first Moridin watches the Shaido, and in the latter Shaidar Haren does the same. In the first the watcher refers to himself as a "he", in the latter the myrdraal refers to itself as an "it". Consider the variences, the specifically stated saa when Moridin considers intervening with Graendal and the lack thereof when Shaidar Haren burns the stick. The screaming of the world when Moridin uses the True Power to travel versus Shaidar Haren turning to seek a shadow that would allow him to move.

 

The very language itself breaks this theory. I'm sorry mate--go look at it. It's out of the question. Utterly.

Here we go again.

I think it's a shame you come on so strong, Luckers. "Utterly'?

 

I think there's a decent chance "Chapter 20 - Patterns Within Patterns" doesn't depict Moridin, but that it's actually Shaidar Haran.

I do think the very language hid it well, though.

 

First off;

Yes, I do see eyes & eyebrows being mentioned. (but even SH in his thoughts refers to it's eyes)

Yes, I do see that this person thinks of himself as 'he' and uses 'his'.

Still, there are also clues that -to me- suggest we aren't looking at a human at all, but a Fade. A Fade using the True Power.

 

Then again, if I'm right, this creature (Moridin/ Shaidar Haran) doesn't exist for very long, yet. It might be that Shaidar Haran/ Moridin is still comming to grips with his new and improved 'self' and needs time to think of itself in the right way. He still has to adapt his way of thinking.

We can also see this when Shaidar Haran is introduced and talks to the 'Gars:

 

Shaidar Haran turned its attention back to the woman twitching in its fist. .../ /...

You are adapting already. Soon it will be as if you had never had any other. Or you may refuse. Then another will take your place, and you will be given to...  my brothers, blocked as you are.” Those thin lips twitched again. “They miss their sport in the Borderlands.”

I think when Shaidar Haran pauses, he almost says "and you will be given to the Myrddraal". Speaking of them like he isn't one of them. He realizes just in time to refer to Myrddraal as 'his brothers'. Those pauses are used a lot by RJ when characters are about to reveal knowledge they want to hide.

 

Let's break down Chapter 20 step by step... and try to find the Pattern within the Pattern?

 

The watcher ghosted through the trees, making no sound.

.../ /... The watcher followed and listened. They had no idea.

.../ /... “Of course I had to have you with me,” Sammael growled, stumbling over a dead vine.

.../ /... A branch that partially blocked Graendal’s path flexed away until it snapped with a sharp crack.

.../ /... Graendal considered that, so much so that she tripped. Sammael caught her by the arm, keeping her on her feet, but as soon as she regained her balance, she jerked free. Interesting, even given what had happened back in that clearing.

.../ /... Sammael stopped, glancing behind them. The watcher stood very still. Swathed in fancloth except for his eyes, he had no worry that he would be seen. Over the years he had learned expertise in many areas Sammael scorned. In some he favored, too.

.../ /... The gateway opening suddenly, slicing away half of a tree, made Graendal jump. The split trunk leaned drunkenly.

.../ /...

He considered going back and killing the seven women in the clearing.

From the above, it's clear that Sammael & Graendal have a hard time making their way through those trees.

 

We can also deduct that the Watcher has been watching the meeting, since he thinks about "what had happened back in that clearing", considers going back & knows there were seven woman also present. So the Watcher must have been following from when Sammael & Graendal left the meeting.

 

All the while they are being followed by someone who doesn't even think twice about being heard. Who also has no trouble whatsoever to stay on his feet or avoid any obstacles.

In fact, he doesn't make any sound at all. We know that the Watcher doesn't make a sound, because both Sammael & Graendal hold on to the Power for the whole trip trough the forest, heigthening their sense of hearing & sight a lot as shown throughout the books.

 

Based on how both Sammael & Graedal make their way through the trees and the fact both their senses are heightened, this suggest we have to take the first sentence in this quote literally; The watcher ghosted through the trees, making no sound.

 

Where have we seen something similar before?

In The Westwood;

All of the shapes appeared black in the night, and the horse’s hooves made the same sounds that any other’ s would, but Rand knew this horse from any other.

 

.../ /...This time the [Fades] horse made no sound at all. In eerie silence the dark rider returned, his shadowy mount stopping every few steps as it wa lked slowly back down the road.

 

The wind gusted higher, moaning through the trees; the horseman’s cloak lay still as death.

.../ /...Then the horse was moving on, a few soundless steps and stop, until all Rand could see was a barely distinguishable blur in the night far down the road. It could have been anything, but he had not taken his eyes off it for a second. If he lost it, he was afraid the next time he saw the black-cloaked rider might be when that silent horse was on top of him.

 

Abruptly the shadow was rushing back, passing him in a silent gallop. The rider looked only ahead of him as he sped westward into the night

Now I realise the Watcher isn't a horse, but it stands to reason that the ability to 'make no sound' is initiated by the rider.

 

I think it's plausible that a Fade 'ghosted through the trees, making no sound', being only partially in this reality. That lends credibility to the Watcher being Shaidar Haran me thinks.

 

But wait, there's more;

Graendal maintained the Mask of Mirrors that hid her true form, but Sammael had dropped his, golden-bearded again and just head and shoulders taller than she. He had let the link between them dissolve, too.

.../ /...But [sammael] did hold saidin; perhaps he was not completely unaware of his danger.

.../ /...

The gateway opening suddenly, slicing away half of a tree, made Graendal jump.... Now she also knew Sammael held to the Source.

.../ /...

A vertical silver slash appeared off to one side, but before her gateway began to align, she let go the weave, slowly, the streak shrinking to a point before winking out. The prickling vanished from the watcher’s skin as she released saidar as well

.../ /...

To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern

Now, what I find really wierd about the above, is how on earth could the Watcher see that Sammael had 'let the link between him & Graendal dissolve', if the Watcher was Moridin?

 

Nowhere in the books does it suggest this is possible. In fact, considering what is written in the books, I think it's safe to say that humans can't see this link (see my notes below).

 

Again, I think it makes more sense if this was Shaidar Haran watching, because we know from "Chapter 40 - Spears" that "In its eyes [note; Even SH thinks as having eyes], the gateways had left a residue—three patches of glowing mist. It could not tell one flow from another, but it could distinguish saidin from saidar by the smell."

Shaidar Haran can actually see flows of the one power & can see residue of power-use as a mist.

 

Suddenly fires bloomed below, six enveloping dead Trollocs in front of Malevin and Aisling, seven in front of Sandomere and Ayako, and [Nynaeve] squinted against the blinding glare. It was like trying to look at thirteen noonday suns blazing in a cloudless sky. They were linked. She could tell from the way the flows of saidar moved, stiffly, as though they were being forced into place rather than guided. Or rather, the men were trying to force them. That never worked with the female half of the Power. It was pure Fire, and the blazes were ferocious, fiercer than she would have expected from Fire alone. But of course they would be using saidin as well, and who could say what they were adding from that murderous chaos? The little she could recall of being linked with Rand left her with no desire ever again to go near that. (KOD, Chapter 20 - The Golden Crane)

 

[Nynaeve can only see that male & female channelers are linked because of the way saidar moved. Not because she saw ‘a link/ring’ between the channelers]-----------------------------------

 

Suddenly [Demandred] saw people off to the right ahead of him through the trees, and sheltered behind a rough gray trunk. A bald-headed old man [Damer Flinn] with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning. What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al’Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were. Any use of the Power would warn al’Thor. He would have to wait until they passed. The old man’s head was turning as if he were searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far.

Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha’man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring. He tried to launch his own attack and crush them, but the old man flung web after web at him without pause, and it was all he could do to fend them off. Those that struck trees enveloped them in flame or blew the trunks apart in splinters. (WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

What did irk [Eben] was that he had not been given control of the circle. Of course, Jahar had not, …/ /…. Damer had been given control of that circle, though. (WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

 

[This is the best comparison; a male channeler is watching a group of linked channelers led by a male -like ACOS chapter 20, under the exact same conditions-. Demandred however does not see any link, or even recognizes Flinn, Corele or Sarene as channelers, until Flinn starts his attack! Only after he is attacked by saidin, he concludes -and still does not see- they must be an Asha’man linked with Aes Sedai.]

-----------------------------------

 

“I hadn’t meant to ride so far,” the woman [Aran’gar] said coming closer. “I see you’re all Aes Sedai. With a . . .groom? Do you know what all the commotion is about?”

Suddenly, Eben felt the blood drain from his face. What he felt was impossible! The green-eyed woman frowned in surprise, and he did the only thing that he could.

“She’s holding saidin!” he shouted, and threw himself at her as he felt Daigian draw deeply on the Power. (WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

 

[Asan’gar -a male channeler in a female body- does not see the linking between male & female channelers. This is clear because she thinks Eben is a groom instead of an Asha’man until ‘she’ is close enough to feel saidin in Eben (the surprised frown) simultaneously with Eben feeling Asan’gar holding saidin]

-----------------------------------

 

Scrambling to the top of the hill, Osan’gar dropped to the ground on his belly and smiled as he crabbed sideways to shelter behind a tree. From here, with saidin in him, he could see the next crest clearly, and the people on it. Not as many as he had expected. One woman [Elza, controlling the link] was making a slow circuit around the crest, peering into the trees, but everyone else was still, Narishma sitting with Callandor glowing in his hands and a woman’s head on his knee. There were two other women that Osan’gar could see, one kneeling over the other [Caddy & Nyn], but they were obscured by a man’s back. He did not need to see the man’s face to know al’Thor. The key lying on the ground at his side named him. To Osan’gar’s eyes, it shone brightly. In his head, it overwhelmed the sun, a thousand suns. What he could do with that! (WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

 

[Osan’gar -a male channeler- does not see/ describe the link between Rand/ Nyn Male-controled) or Elza/ Jahar (Female-controled)]

-----------------------------------

 

“If you planned this between you—trapping me—” Rand sensed a surge in Asmodean, as if the Forsaken were testing the shield Lanfear had woven around him; women who could channel saw a glow surrounding another woman who had embraced saidar and felt her channeling clearly, but he never saw anything around Asmodean and felt little. (TFOH, Chapter 3 - Pale Shadows)

 

[Holding & using saidin can’t be seen (by male or female channelers)]

-----------------------------------

 

Then there's the prickling skin that the Watcher describes; the prickling vanished as Graendal stopped channeling the gateway. I do realise that human males feels a tingling sensation (goosebumps) from being (relatively) close to a female holding the source or activelly channeling. We don't know exactly how close a male has to be, but judging from the description, I'd say the Watcher is just close enough to see Sammael & Graendal & that holding the True Power enhances his ability to see details as well hear the discussion.

 

There's also another explantion though:

[Egwene] thinned one flow of Earth to finer than a hair, hoping the Halfmen could not sense so small a channeling, and wove it into the iron chain, into the tiniest bits of it.

One of the Myrddraal lifted its head. Another leaned across the table toward Adden. “I itch, human. Are you sure they sleep?” Adden swallowed hard and nodded his head. The third Myrddraal turned to stare at the door to the room where Egwene and the others crouched.(TDR, Chapter 39 - Threads in the Pattern)

Now Egwene's channeled a very, very small amount of Earth, but still it was registered by the three Myrddraal. And them feeling it, was described as 'an itch'.

 

The Watcher could very well be describing the same feeling. And since those three Myrddraal the responded to a trickle of Earth, it's possible a Myrddraal could have an itch, or pirckling skin, from a Gateway at a much greater distance.

 

One of the biggest clues we're not dealing with something completely human is the following though;

"To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern".

 

Not only does Shaidar Haran smell the difference between Siadar & Saidin, but he can see the flows. He can also see residue from both Saidar & Saidin as mist. Myrddraal in general itch when woman channel. It's not a big leap, to assume that other senses -like hearing- might be able to hear things human ears cannot. So could it be Shaidar Haran hearing the Pattern scream? I think it's a way bigger leap to assume a human can.

 

Besides that, the Watcher stepped "outside" the Pattern. Outside Creation.

Who are 'partly not in this Reality'? Exactly; Fades. I can understand a human using the True power ripping a hole in the Pattern to travel from one place to another within Reality. But to step outside Reality?

 

Combined with other hints, I like to think Shaidar Haran is Moridin in Fade-form.

To say it's 'utterly out of the question' that those 2 chapters (20 & 40) describe one and the same being, I think is comming on way too strong.

 

The beauty is, that if you accept -even in the slightest way- that the Watcher in chapter 20 could be Shaidar Haran, at the same time you have to accept that Moridin is Shaidar Haran. Simply because the Watcher must be Ishy-recycled in a new body also, considering the Watchers thoughts.  :P

 

So yes, it's easy to see Ishamael-recycled in the Watcher. But if it's Moridin or Shaidar Haran.....?

Patterns withing patterns.. yes yes.

 

Cheers,

Mik  :)

 

[vasu619]

Nice to see you actually came up with some evidence Mik. Definitely better than Dreadlord's reasoning. It now makes the theory understandable. I'll have to go to sleep now, so I'll reply first thing in the morning. ;D

 

Also, can you confirm these points for me?

 

1. When Ishamael died, did the DO recycle him into a myrdraal's body or into a human body? I mean, normally, does he look like Moridin or Shaidar?

2. Does he undergo a metamorphosis when he changes from one form to another, or does he simply use the TP to weave an illusion?

3. You'll need to run the change in mindsets over me again. I didn't really understand how you countered Luckers' post.

 

Alright, try transposing chapters 20 and 40 of aCoS. In the first Moridin watches the Shaido, and in the latter Shaidar Haren does the same. In the first the watcher refers to himself as a "he", in the latter the myrdraal refers to itself as an "it". Consider the variences, the specifically stated saa when Moridin considers intervening with Graendal and the lack thereof when Shaidar Haren burns the stick. The screaming of the world when Moridin uses the True Power to travel versus Shaidar Haren turning to seek a shadow that would allow him to move.

 

The very language itself breaks this theory. I'm sorry mate--go look at it. It's out of the question. Utterly.

 

[Majsju]

RJs comment about SH being the DO in a shadowy form is by itself enough to write off any kind of "Moridin=SH". Especially since there is absolutely nothing within the books that even remotely supports any such thing.

 

My theory on Moridin and Shaidar is this; originally, Moridin created an alter ego in order to pull the other Forsaken into line, and the only way to do so is by using drastic measures, so the alter ego has to be something unique. A Superfade.

 

Except that we know for a fact that the DO created SH.

 

Just read the bit before I said bare with me, on about what a character believes is possible. Step into my theory and become Moridin BELEIVING he is Shaidar Haran, a Fade that is more than the rest. Any Fade can teleport through shadows, no Fade can Travel with the True Power. Moridin, thinking he is said Superfade, doesnt entertain the idea of Travelling with the True Power because Fades cant. If you think something isnt possible, you dont try it, because you dont know how, right?

 

So Moridin would not only have made an alter ego for himself, he would have figured out how to give himself not only the exact same abilities as a regular myrdraal has, but a few extra as well, and all this without channeling?

 

Lastly I make a reference to RJs comment about the Dark Ones power being in "his creature" 24/7. That doesnt write the theory off either. This creature could have been Moridin, who can channel the True Power 24/7. Even if he has to ask for permission, the ability is there 24/7 until Shaitan denies it. And the shadowy form of Shaitan doesnt write it off either, because who is to say that the appearance of the creature will change?

 

Weird how we have seen no inkling of the DO being there in any of Moridins POVs, despite SH being the DO in a shadowy form. One would think that sharing a body with an evil god just might cause a wee bit of discomfort...

 

Ridiculous only because nobody else agrees. I bet if Luckers had come up with it people would love the idea. Its 100% possible in WoT, its realistic, and Moridin has a motive for it. Anyway, agree to disagree and all that, some people arent open-minded enough to entertain new ideas.

 

If Luckers had come up with this, he would have provided some actual support. Even his loony bodyswap theory is more supported than this, and that has about as much chance of happening as a blueberrys chance of survival in a supernova.

 

I think when Shaidar Haran pauses, he almost says "and you will be given to the Myrddraal". Speaking of them like he isn't one of them. He realizes just in time to refer to Myrddraal as 'his brothers'. Those pauses are used a lot by RJ when characters are about to reveal knowledge they want to hide.

 

And what knowledge is it that SH might want to hide here? Oh right, that it actually is the DO in a shadowy form.

 

I think there's a decent chance "Chapter 20 - Patterns Within Patterns" doesn't depict Moridin, but that it's actually Shaidar Haran.

 

There is absolutely zero chance of the watcher being SH. There is absolutely zero chance of the watcher being anything other than a channeler loyal to the DO, since we in this chapter get several mentions of how he has Saa in his eyes. All possibilities of them being the same ends right there.

 

 

[Mik]

Nice to see you actually came up with some evidence Mik. Definitely better than Dreadlord's reasoning.

Thanks. There's more.

 

Also, can you confirm these points for me?

 

1. When Ishamael died, did the DO recycle him into a myrdraal's body or into a human body? I mean, normally, does he look like Moridin or Shaidar?

There's no hard proof, but I look at this the "Slayer"-way. Slayer is both Luc & Isam; 2 bodies who share one mind with 2 personalities. Slayer decides who he'll be and the Mind and Body that belong to either Isam or Luc are ..erm.. 'switched on' (for lack of better word). Neither Luc or Isam was a channeler though.

 

I envision the creature that is Moridin & Shaidar Haran (24/10) in the same that Slayer is Slayer 24/10 even though Slayer is either depicted as Luc or Isam.

The beauty of this creature is that this time it has a living mind and the channeling ability so even in Myrddraal-form it can channel. I think this is the only Myrddraal with a truly living mind (Ishamaels) and thus the only Myrddraal that can channel.

 

2. Does he undergo a metamorphosis when he changes from one form to another, or does he simply use the TP to weave an illusion?

See above; it's not illusion at all. They are linked.

 

3. You'll need to run the change in mindsets over me again. I didn't really understand how you countered Luckers' post.

Pretty straightforward, I think.

Luckers focused on the stuff that proved the Watcher was Ishamael-recycled and thus Moridin. Luckers focused on the fact that the Watcher uses 'he' & 'his' and the mention of eyes as his main reasons.

 

I don't see how those stand in the way of it being Ishamael-recycled and actually being Shaidar Haran. It's like Shaidar Haran himself says when we first see him;

“You will adapt. The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body. You are adapting already. Soon it will be as if you had never had any other [body]. (LoC, Prologue - The First Message)

The same goes for Moridin/ Shaidar Haran; he needs time to adapt to the situation. He almost made a mistake by referring to Myrddraal as different beings as Shaidar Haran (I think).

 

Get it?

 

I think there's a decent chance "Chapter 20 - Patterns Within Patterns" doesn't depict Moridin, but that it's actually Shaidar Haran.

There is absolutely zero chance of the watcher being SH. There is absolutely zero chance of the watcher being anything other than a channeler loyal to the DO, since we in this chapter get several mentions of how he has Saa in his eyes. All possibilities of them being the same ends right there.

Erm, Maj. Where does my post suggest Shaidar Haran not being a channeler loyal to Shai'tan?

Also, I think it's very 'short-sighted'(;)) to think that Shaidar Haran doesn't experience the Saa.

Myrddraal see from the same spot where humans have eyes. Why else do they turn heads to look etcetera? Shaidar Haran thinks of his own vision of "in it's eyes". Why could it not experience Saa in it's vision, when using the True Power?

Why could it not think of having eyes, especially if Shai'tan just linked Ishamaels Mind to a Myrddraal body?

 

And would you please be so kind as to reply to the points I brought up too, instead of just tackling Dreadlords post?

[Majsju]

Erm, Maj. Where does my post suggest Shaidar Haran not being a channeler loyal to Shai'tan?

 

I rather look at the books and quotes from RJ, than at your posts if I want any kind if valid information. And all real information we have says that SH is a myrdraal, somehow enhanced so the body can be somewhat inhabited by the DO.

 

Myrddraal see from the same spot where humans have eyes. Why else do they turn heads to look etcetera? Shaidar Haran thinks of his own vision of "in it's eyes". Why could it not experience Saa in it's vision, when using the True Power?

 

Ever considered that "in its eyes" just might be a figure of speech? Like, if I say "in my opinion", I do not refer to me having an organ in my body called an opinion...

 

Why could it not think of having eyes, especially if Shai'tan just linked Ishamaels Mind to a Myrddraal body?

 

You do know that we have seen Moridin walking around in a very not-a-myrdraal body, right? You do know that both SH and Moridin have had more than brief physical contact with others, right? You do know physical contact "breaks" Mask of Mirrors, right?

 

And would you please be so kind as to reply to the points I brought up, instead of just tackling poor Dreadlord?

 

The watcher having Saa nullifies pretty much everything you posted, so why waste my time on irrelevant things?

[Mik]

Erm, Maj. Where does my post suggest Shaidar Haran not being a channeler loyal to Shai'tan?

I rather look at the books and quotes from RJ, than at your posts if I want any kind if valid information. And all real information we have says that SH is a myrdraal, somehow enhanced so the body can be somewhat inhabited by the DO.

And how does that conflict with what I'm saying above? Shaidar Haran is a Myrddraal, indeed. Enhanced with the mind of Ishamael. What's left of it anyway, after centuries of True Power use.

 

Like I said; think 'Slayer'.

 

 

 

Myrddraal see from the same spot where humans have eyes. Why else do they turn heads to look etcetera? Shaidar Haran thinks of his own vision of "in it's eyes". Why could it not experience Saa in it's vision, when using the True Power?

Ever considered that "in its eyes" just might be a figure of speech? Like, if I say "in my opinion", I do not refer to me having an organ in my body called an opinion...?

In the only -and very short to boot- POV of Shaidar Haran, we read;

"In its eyes, the gateways had left a residue—three patches of glowing mist."

 

Are you suggesting he said; In it's opinion, the gateways had left a residue...?

Nope, sorry. It was clearly referring to his vision, his eye-sight. He may not have visible eyes, or eyes for that matter. But Shaidar clearly refering to his sight and thus thinks of itself as 'having eyes' in this case.

 

Why could it not think of having eyes, especially if Shai'tan just linked Ishamaels Mind to a Myrddraal body?

You do know that we have seen Moridin walking around in a very not-a-myrdraal body, right? You do know that both SH and Moridin have had more than brief physical contact with others, right? You do know physical contact "breaks" Mask of Mirrors, right?

Right. I'm not saying it's a MoM, Maj. See above.

 

And would you please be so kind as to reply to the points I brought up, instead of just tackling poor Dreadlord?

The watcher having Saa nullifies pretty much everything you posted, so why waste my time on irrelevant things?

Awww. C'mon.

Don't be a meany! Just because Shaidar Haran doesn't tell us in his one Point of View, about 10 lines long (wow!) doesn't mean he doesn't experience it. You can't say he doesn't.

 

Why do you guys feel so attacked?