Bars and Blocks

[bushleague16]

I know this is pushing it as far as stuff to talk about goes, but I just wanted to know...

 

Constantly throughout the series R.J stresses the fact that most, if not all female wilders who survive develop a block.

 

Although we don't see very many male wilders, none of the ones we do see (Rand and logain for sure... maybe Taim) don't develop a "bar"... in fact the only male channeler we see with one is Fedwin Morr and he does not have the spark inborn.

 

Is this just a difference in saidin and saidar?  Or do we really not have enough male wilders to compare with?

[Luckers]

Toveine implies that most men block themselves just like most women--that Logain and Rand did not are realities specific to them--in particular Rand was concious of his abilit specifically which seems to preclude blocks forming. Logain may have been the same, realising and accepting immediately that he can channel.

 

Taim was trained, so he would not have a block.

[vasu619]

But Fedwin Morr wasn't a sparker, and he was taught pretty consciously to channel, and that means he was definitely aware he could channel.

[Luckers]

You have to differentiate between mistraining and blocking. Blocks, as such, involve the actual method with which you seize the source--and they only occur when a perso is touching the source without realising it... the mind develops codes for touching the source, situations in which its nessasary, without intentional effort--thus you have women needing to be angry, needing to have hot men around them, needing to have their eyes shut....

 

basically the initial conditions in which they first touch the source prescribe how they touch the source from then on.

 

Mistraining is different--whilsts blocks can only occur in the first touchings and only if the person is unaware of what they are doing, mistraining can occur at any point. Mistraining is if someone learns a weave in a particular way, they can only repeat that weave in that way--this is why Aes Sedai use so many gestures, having learnt them that way, they can't reproduce the weave without them--the second learned weave comes into effect.

 

The same occurs with beliefs--like the inability to channel beyond a certain distance, as in Morr's case--this is a mistraining effect, not that he was told that, but at some stage during his training he assumed that was the case, and from then on it was the case.

 

It can be broken--Nynaeve's reliance on herbs was a result of mistraining, and she broke it in tDR healing Elayne--its just extremely unpleasent. She described it as being like peeling her own skin off.

 

Mistraining and blocking. Two seperate things.

[Elgee]

With regards to Fedwin Morr, are you talking specifically about his inability to channel further than he can see?

 

It is not that he is unable to embrace the source / grab hold of Saidin unless certain conditions are met (having a block, in other words), his problem (and according to Toveine, the problem of most men) is that they think they have to be able to see "where they are channeling to." As long as they can see what they're channeling at, they're fine. It is therefor merely a limitation, not a block.

 

edit: Luckers beat me to it, i think

[a pale tanned lover]

We have no evidence as far as i can remember of any males suffering from a block and in essence it should be remembered that saidar is all about surrendering to the source which attributes to alot of blocks in various ways because of its nature, Saidin is about fight and struggle to maintain control of the source, not a way you would think that someone would develop a block due to its nature.

[vasu619]

I suppose you can't seize Saidin without knowing it, but Rand does when he's healing Bela in tEotW and in tGH when he sees the male Choedan Kal in Cairhien with Selene alias Lanfear.

 

It is not that he is unable to embrace the source / grab hold of Saidin unless certain conditions are met (having a block, in other words), his problem (and according to Toveine, the problem of most men) is that they think they have to be able to see "where they are channeling to." As long as they can see what they're channeling at, they're fine. It is therefor merely a limitation, not a block.

 

 

You mean most/all men suffer from this problem??

 

And thanks Luckers, I think I get it now.

[a pale tanned lover]

Is it not mentioned as well that the same is with gateways? once made the channeler can never make them bigger because they have set their own limits.

[triadruid]

Well, that can't be absolutely true because Rand and at least one of the Supergirls have made significantly larger gateways than their original attempt. Only Aviendha seems to have been unable to reconstruct what she did the first time, and her first gateway was instinctive; much like Nynaeve's special Healing, it's probably better than what the AS are using.

[a pale tanned lover]

I agree just something tugs at my memory of Asmodean saying this to Rand, but i could be wrong, it could have been about skimming........... :-\

[Elgee]

Wasn't that something about setting your own limitations? Ie you think you can only make the platform SO big, which means you CAN only make it so big.

 

vasu619, we can't be sure if all men have this problem, only that Toveine thinks so.

[algspkr]

Toveine implies that most men block themselves just like most women--that Logain and Rand did not are realities specific to them--in particular Rand was concious of his abilit specifically which seems to preclude blocks forming. Logain may have been the same, realising and accepting immediately that he can channel.

 

Taim was trained, so he would not have a block.

In KoD we learned that Logain was a minor nobel, and so he probably had training as a swordsman, including knowledge of the flame and the void.  I would imagine that his and Rand's exposure to the method of siesing sadin before actually trying to channel prevented them from developing blocks.

[mb]

Somewhere it has been told that the age for male sparkers is later than the age for female sparkers.

The bar/block I think relates to just the sparking age; being self-taught before then would to me form it.

 

Actually, Rand was taught by Asmodean.  About Taim, I read no comment whether he was self-taught or not.

 

[Tyrell]

Rand was taught by Asmo, but that is irrelevent when it comes to blocks. Nynaeve was taught by a lot of Aes Sedai and that is similarily irrelevent.

 

The block occurs when you fumble through your first touchings of the source - in Rand's case the events throughout EotW (helping Bela keep running, swinging the boom on Bayle's ship, calling down lightning in that inn and finally using the power consciously at the eye).

[Luckers]

I agree just something tugs at my memory of Asmodean saying this to Rand, but i could be wrong, it could have been about skimming...........

 

It was indeed about skimming--the platform a person makes to skim with cannot be made larger--it sets patterns in the mind.

 

Somewhere it has been told that the age for male sparkers is later than the age for female sparkers.

The bar/block I think relates to just the sparking age; being self-taught before then would to me form it.

 

Women spark between 12 and 24, men between 18 and 28. But i dont see how age would have anything to do with the block--a block occurs when someone doesn't understand or is not conciously aware of what they are doing when they first start channeling. The mind establishes barriers and specific circumstances that have to be met before the person can channel based on what that person did when they first channel. Its a protection machenism, to stop the mind from wildly drawing on the power all the time.

 

I don't see why older men might not fall for the same thing. It just depends on how their mind reacts to the first channeling, how aware they are that they've channeled, and how accepting they are of the idea of channeling.

 

Actually, Rand was taught by Asmodean.  About Taim, I read no comment whether he was self-taught or not.

 

Rand had already mastered the first touchings long before he encountered Asmodean, by that stage he'd either have developed a block, or not. Being taught by Asmo wouldn't have chaged that one way or the other.

 

And Taim's displays of Forsaken knowledge and mannerisms suggest that he was trained by Ishamael, but if you want to find out more about that go look up one of the multitude of Taim threads about.

 

 

[dubz]

Wouldn't Rand's first times using the source be based on intense need.  In all the cases he really needed something to happen.  Be it Bela running faster or escaping from perverto in Four kings.

Do you think that if Rand did have a block it would be he could only channel when he really needed to?

 

[Hybrid]

Wouldn't Rand's first times using the source be based on intense need.  In all the cases he really needed something to happen.  Be it Bela running faster or escaping from perverto in Four kings.

Do you think that if Rand did have a block it would be he could only channel when he really needed to?

 

No.  That's part of a wilder touching the Source on their own.  Because at the time, they usually don't comprehend what they're doing, or don't understand how to hold the Source.  So they are only able to do it instinctively, and that's in times of dire need generally.  A block typically develops around then because they don't understand they are touching the Source and rationalize what they do away.  Rand has no such problem, because he realizes that he's touching the Source, and he knows the technique, the flame and the void, for doing so.

[Luckers]

Indeed, RJ spoke about it once--the younger the wilder is the more intense the need has to be to cause them to spark, but there is always need involved. Thats not a block, thats just the way it works--the way it worked for Nynaeve too. In fact isn't it interesting that both Nynaeve and Rand reacted to Egwene being at risk of death? Kind of funny really.