Shivan the Hunter

[Thor]

Look there is a real simple explanation for this ok?

 

When the heroes are dead in TAR, they are bound to the horn and only serves the good guys.

When they are alive, they serve whoever.

 

As for Shivan, I wouldn't be surprised if RJ forgot about him tbh.  As far as I'm concerned, the end of an age needs no Herald.

[Mik]

Look there is a real simple explanation for this ok?

 

When the heroes are dead in TAR, they are bound to the horn and only serves the good guys.

When they are alive, they serve whoever.

That would be a simple solution, yes. But unfortunately, it's wrong on both accounts.

 

The Heroes of the Horn are not allowed to intervene when they await the Horns call or await to be spun out in TAR. It is forbidden by precepts stronger then Law.

 

Birgitte chooses to not abide by some of the precepts in TAR, and according to Gaidal Cain 'nothing good can come of it'. We later see Birgitte get's ripped from TAR, and gets saved from the brink of death by Elayne's bonding.

 

When spun out or called by the Horn, the Heroes fight the Shadow, because that is why they were bound to the Wheel.

 

See the following quotes for proof;

 

The woman [birgitte] seemed vaguely familiar, though Perrin was certain he would have remembered her had he ever seen her before. Who was she, to be in the wolf dream? Or was it Moiraine’s Tel’aran’rhiod, too?

“Are you Aes Sedai?”

 

“No, archer.” She laughed. “I only came to warn you, despite the prescripts. Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible. You have a Bannerman’s courage,[clear foreshadowing by RJ to the importance of the banner & Perrins role  :)] which some say cannot be told from foolhardiness.”

.../ /...

“Who are you?” She seemed to know a lot about the tower, and the wolf dream. But she was surprised I could talk to Hopper. “I’ve met you before somewhere, I think.”

 

“I have broken too many of the prescripts already, archer.”

 

“Prescripts? What prescripts?” A shadow fell on the ground behind Hopper, and Perrin turned quickly, angry at being caught by surprise again. There was no one there. But he had seen it; the shadow of a man with the hilts of two swords rising above his shoulders. Something about that image teased his memory.

 

“He [Gaidal Cain speaking to Birgitte only] is right,” the woman said behind him. “I should not be talking to you.”

 

When [Perrin] turned back, she was gone.

 

“Who are you?” Nynaeve demanded furiously. ...

 

“I am Birgitte,” ... “At least, that is the name you would know. ... I remember the lives I have lived as if they were books well-read, the longer gone dimmer than the nearer, but I remember well when I fought at Lews Therin’s side. I will never forget Moghedien’s face, ...

 

... We could use your help.”...

 

“I cannot, Nynaeve. I cannot touch the world of flesh unless the Horn calls me again. Or else the Wheel weaves me out.... As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us. Here, all is part of the dream, and the One Power could destroy me as easily as you. More easily. I told you; I am an archer, a sometime soldier, no more.” Her complex golden braid swung as she shook her head. “I do not know why I am explaining. I should not even be talking to you.”

 

“Why not?....

 

According to the precepts, we may speak to none who know they are in Tel’aran’rhiod. And yet, evil walks the dream as well as the world of flesh; you who fight it attract me. Even knowing I can do almost nothing, I find myself wanting to help you. But I cannot. It violates the precepts, precepts which have held me for so many turns of the Wheel that in my oldest, faintest memories I know I had already lived a hundred times, or a thousand. Speaking to you violates precepts as strong as law.”

 

“It does,” said [Gaidal Cain to Brigitte]...

 

“We have almost always been linked,” Birgitte [said].... A simple story, but I think we have spun it out in a thousand variations.”

 

Cain ignored Nynaeve as though she did not exist. “The precepts exist for a reason, Birgitte. Nothing but strife and trouble has ever come from breaking them.”

 

“Perhaps I cannot sit by while evil fights,” Birgitte said quietly. “Or perhaps I simply hunger for the flesh again. It has been long since we were born last. The Shadow rises again, Gaidal. It rises here. We must fight it. That is the reason we were bound to the Wheel.”

 

“When the Horn calls us, we will fight. When the Wheel weaves us, we will fight. Not until then!” He glowered at her. “Have you forgotten what Moghedien promised you when we followed Lews Therin? I saw her, Birgitte. She will know you here.”

 

Birgitte turned to Nynaeve. “I will aid you as I can, but do not expect too much. Tel’aran’rhiod is the whole of my world, and I can do less here than you.”

 

...Plainly, as far as [Gaidal] was concerned, Birgitte was speaking to the air....

“Birgitte, what did Moghedien promise you?”

 

“[Moghedien] knew what I was, even though I did not. How, I do not know.” Birgitte glanced at Cain; he appeared absorbed in his sword, but she lowered her voice anyway. “She promised to make me weep alone for as long as the Wheel turns. She said it as a fact that simply had not happened yet.”

 

“And yet you are willing to help.”

 

“As I can, Nynaeve. Remember that I told you not to expect too much.”

 

“You promised, Nynaeve.” Those bright blue eyes were unyielding as ice. “The prescripts say that we must not let anyone know that we reside in Tel’aran’rhiod. I have broken many by speaking to you, much more by giving aid, because I cannot stand by and watch you battle the Shadow—I have fought that battle in more lifetimes than I can remember—but I will keep as many of the prescripts as I can.

You must hold to your promise.”

 

“Of course I will,” she said indignantly, “unless you release me from it. And I do ask you to—”

 

“No.”

 

And Birgitte was gone.

 

“I am only trying to make up for—” [Nynaeve] began timidly, and jumped when [birgitte] roared.

 

“Make up? You are trying to make me less!”

 

“No. No, it is not that, truly. I am to blame—”

 

“You take responsibility for my actions,” Birgitte broke in fiercely. “I chose to speak to you in Tel’aran’rhiod. I chose to help you. I chose to track Moghedien. And I chose to take you to see her.

Me! Not you, Nynaeve, me! I was not your puppet, your pack hound, then, and I will not be now.”

 

I hope that cleared up that the Heroes of the Horn fight the Shadow when they are spun out or when called by the Horn. (as per Birgitte & Gaidal Cain in 'Need')

 

Birgitte is the only Hero of the Horn actually breaking a number of prescripts by actively aiding people in TAR fighting the Shadow as much as she can. (See all the quotes above) Perhaps because of her choice to meddle where she shouldn't, she was ripped out of TAR by Moghedien.

 

Heroes of the Horn residing in TAR are not supposed to intervene in any shape or form. The Wheel should weave as the Wheel wills. Only after being called by the Horn, or after being spun out, the Heroes are to do battle with the Shadow.

 

The Shadow rises again, Gaidal. It rises here. We must fight it. That is the reason we were bound to the Wheel.”

 

“When the Horn calls us, we will fight. When the Wheel weaves us, we will fight. Not until then!”

[Luckers]

Though this has already been dealt with it seems, I dont see how this gives a direct source that Moir pulled from, which was my point.  Your response didnt quite refute or address my simple question: "What's the viable source that Moir pulled from?"  You stated she had a viable source.  I wanted to know just what that was.

 

We don't know what it was--i would have thought that evident. We do however know that it did indeed exist.

 

Which is really the relevant part--the arguments for ignoring it as potentially misread or altered still apply whether it is a nameless source, or a book entitled "Why the Horn Works for Anyone" By John Doe.

 

I didn't ignore it--i was just trying to point out that that aspect of it wasn't what was significant.

 

 Your logic as to why the example doesnt fit, I follow completely.  I agree with the differences.  The point of the post was just to state that simply because she is Aes Sedai, does not mean that she is correct.  It was wholly to produce the train of thought that we should be able to agree on;  Aes Sedai does not equal Truth.

 

No, but Moiraine holding a belief in spite of her social upbringing to believe the exact opposite does equal a third party source of significant enough integretity to polarize Moiraine's opinion--and Moiraine was no dummy.

 

Arguing that Aes Sedai make assumptions only serves to aid that--Aes Sedai assumptions one and all follow popular opinion--and the cling to them fiercely. An Aes Sedai turning against an assumption of popular opinion is thus made more significant--which is the point.

 

See, that's what I struggle to comprehend.  It is opinion. I can definitely see how it would sway an opinion.  However, I definitely do not see it as fact.  Since Moir, who hasnt talked to Hawkwing as far as I can tell, says something that directly affects what he says...  well, you see my point.  None of what Moir says makes what Hawkwing said mean one thing or another for a fact.  It is still an opinion, or assumption.  Moiraine said x, and that is a fact.  Hawkwing said x, and that is a fact.  Because Moir said x, Hawkwing meant x.  Fact?  That's what I find hard to believe.

 

I agree, it isn't fact. Which is not to say it isn't significant up to the point of actual factuality. I'm talking about the range of possibility here, the realm of logic. Specifically, the idea is that just because the idea is not provable one way or another is not to say that they are equally likely. That the literal and the personal explanations of Hawkwing's comments are 50/50.

 

Moiraine's comment does not make it a fact that Hawkwing's comment was meant in the personal sense. It does however make it more likely, especicially when considered in light of the fact that for Moiraine to believe it in spite of her socialized upbringing to believe the opposite then. The fact that the Horn was sounded in an Age before the Banner was sounded, when the Dragon did not walk the earth adds to this.

 

The ultimate result is that deductively we can work out that Hawkwing did mean it in the personal sense.

 

The funny thing about the above quote is, that Vandene was right. So, yes, the Dragon has a link to Toman Head.

And the beauty is, that the Prophecies of the Dragon state;

"Above the Watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire"

 

There's indication for you... and fact.

I guess it was coincidence now that the Horn was used at the same event?

 

Thats fallacious logic. The Dragon was bannered accross the sky--displayed--because in part the horn had weakened reality. Add to that the effects of Rand's ta'maral'ailen and the push of the Pattern for a Dragon and it makes a lot of sense. Indeed it is the same reason Rand and Ba'alzamon's fight is mirrored by the Heroes and the Seanchan.

 

The banner itself had no role in that, nor is it implied by use of the word 'bannered', which functionally means 'displayed over something'.

 

 

 

Go re-read chapter 22 of TGH, Luckers. Personal compulsion had nothing to do with it. It was meant literally.

 

Quite clearly i disagree--and nothing in chapter 22 supports you over me, however Moiraine's comments and RJ's supports me over you.

 

Now that's where Hawkwings personal feeling comes in, I guess. After the banner is out:

 

Actually we see quite clearly when Hawkwing hesitates and it is before the banner comes out.

 

It's also written that way. It's fitting. It's not like Hawkwing says "Something holds me, Trumpeter. Sound that Horn again"

 

He's already used that wording, it would be linguistically unlikely for him to repeat himself--functionally repititions in english come in threes; in twos we change the wording for flow. Besides, fitting as it was, a horn is not a banner, and does not hold the same personalized importance to warriors in ancient worlds--im not kidding on that, you can read case studdies on the significance of banners within armies. Banners represent the idea for which you are fighting--and it is the significance of that which appealed to Hawkwing, that held him back from the fight.

 

When the heroes are dead in TAR, they are bound to the horn and only serves the good guys.

When they are alive, they serve whoever.

 

Not so, Moiraine's comment was directly about the sounding of the Horn.

 

 

 

Edited: to remove pointless squabling. Suffice it to say I disagree Valinthros, but meandering about it all helps no one.

[Mik]

The funny thing about the above quote is, that Vandene was right. So, yes, the Dragon has a link to Toman Head.

And the beauty is, that the Prophecies of the Dragon state;

"Above the Watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire"

 

There's indication for you... and fact.

I guess it was coincidence now that the Horn was used at the same event?

Thats fallacious logic. The Dragon was bannered accross the sky--displayed--because in part the horn had weakened reality. Add to that the effects of Rand's ta'maral'ailen and the push of the Pattern for a Dragon and it makes a lot of sense. Indeed it is the same reason Rand and Ba'alzamon's fight is mirrored by the Heroes and the Seanchan.

 

The banner itself had no role in that, nor is it implied by use of the word 'bannered', which functionally means 'displayed over something'.

This is getting ridiculous, Luckers.

 

(1)Five ride forth, (2)and four return. (3)Above the watchers shall (4)he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky (5)in fire...

 

(1); Ingtar, Hurin, Rand, Mat and Perrin, wow, that makes 5 riding forth to Falme. I guess it's fallacious logic five rode forth literally. I mean, riding 'forth' depends on what direction you're looking at, right?

 

(2); Hurin, Rand, Mat and Perrin lived and left Falme! wow, that makes 4 returning. I guess that it's fallacious logic, because -again-, it depends from where you were. Besides, you could say Ingtar returned too; to the warm embrace of the Mother.

 

(3); The battle was seen above Toman Head, Falme, Saldea. Above the Watchers ove the Waves, as Vandene thought. I guess that it's fallacious logic, because 'watchers' could mean anybody. It could have happened over the waste with two Aiel watching.

The importance of the "M" in M'avron is overrated.

 

(4); The Dragon Banner proclaiming that the Dragon was Reborn flew and was shown in the sky above atleast Toman Head, Falme & Saldea. Any other banner would not suffice, because that would not proclaim the one that the Cycle is all about; the Dragon. I guess that it's fallacious logic, because if it would have just shown a red-hared young man without anything to actually proclaim him the Dragon, everyone would still instantly know that young boy was the Dragon. Don't take things too literal, even if they actually happen that way.

I'm sure the two herons were not meant literal either. It didn't really have to be two. And herons, it could have been fish too. Or the two Dragons to mark him. The People of the Dragon could have been anybody. They didn't have to be Aiel.

He didn't have to be born on the slopes of Dragonmount persé. Or of a maiden wedded to no man.

 

It's all.. well.. figure of speech. Even if it happened literally.

 

(5) The harbor didn't need to be on fire for everyone to see. Birgitte's arrows exploding in a roar of fire & all those ships burning was merely coincidence. It was a figure of speech. If you think that there had to be a fire -like there was- you are mistaken. It's fallacious logic to suggest it. It could have been raining that day and it would have meant rands fiery red hair. Or perhaps it was a heated battle.

 

Go re-read chapter 22 of TGH, Luckers. Personal compulsion had nothing to do with it. It was meant literally.

Quite clearly i disagree--and nothing in chapter 22 supports you over me, however Moiraine's comments and RJ's supports me over you.

Since the Heroes are bound to the Wheel and to the Horn, is it so wierd to think the Horn is a function of the Pattern?

 

And -one more time- please provide that quote from Moiraine.

I provide the apropriate quotes.

 

[Tyrell]

I'm sorry to hop in without reading, re-reading and analysing every point so far made in the last 9 pages, and without using multiple nested quotations.

 

I do think though that Luckers is right here, the banner seems rather redundent as a mechanism of controling the heroes and in context'bannered' has no link to a banner - it means as Luckers pointed out 'displayed'. It could mean 'bearing banners' but as the banner does not appear accross the sky I think this can be discounted.

[Thor]

well perhaps the heroes do serve whoever blows the horn, but I doubt it simply because there is always an underlying rule for everything.  If the heroes do serve someone evil, then it would be as someone has mentioned already due to either misunderstanding, or to end/prevent a greater evil.

 

Whether the banner was needed or not, I do however believe that it was the banner that tied the battle between Rand and Ishamael to the one between the Heroes and the Seanchan.

[lordofsoup]

ALL RIGHT BACK ON TOPIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

going out on a limb (i seem to do it a lot)

 

shivan and his sister is either Elayne's kids or Elayne and Gwayen

 

discuss/flame

[Luckers]

Thats fallacious logic. The Dragon was bannered accross the sky--displayed--because in part the horn had weakened reality. Add to that the effects of Rand's ta'maral'ailen and the push of the Pattern for a Dragon and it makes a lot of sense. Indeed it is the same reason Rand and Ba'alzamon's fight is mirrored by the Heroes and the Seanchan.

 

The banner itself had no role in that, nor is it implied by use of the word 'bannered', which functionally means 'displayed over something'.

 

 

This is getting ridiculous, Luckers.

 

 

Quote

(1)Five ride forth, (2)and four return. (3)Above the watchers shall (4)he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky (5)in fire...

 

 

(1); Ingtar, Hurin, Rand, Mat and Perrin, wow, that makes 5 riding forth to Falme. I guess it's fallacious logic five rode forth literally. I mean, riding 'forth' depends on what direction you're looking at, right?

 

(2); Hurin, Rand, Mat and Perrin lived and left Falme! wow, that makes 4 returning. I guess that it's fallacious logic, because -again-, it depends from where you were. Besides, you could say Ingtar returned too; to the warm embrace of the Mother.

 

(3); The battle was seen above Toman Head, Falme, Saldea. Above the Watchers ove the Waves, as Vandene thought. I guess that it's fallacious logic, because 'watchers' could mean anybody. It could have happened over the waste with two Aiel watching.

The importance of the "M" in M'avron is overrated.

 

(4); The Dragon Banner proclaiming that the Dragon was Reborn flew and was shown in the sky above atleast Toman Head, Falme & Saldea. Any other banner would not suffice, because that would not proclaim the one that the Cycle is all about; the Dragon. I guess that it's fallacious logic, because if it would have just shown a red-hared young man without anything to actually proclaim him the Dragon, everyone would still instantly know that young boy was the Dragon. Don't take things too literal, even if they actually happen that way.

I'm sure the two herons were not meant literal either. It didn't really have to be two. And herons, it could have been fish too. Or the two Dragons to mark him. The People of the Dragon could have been anybody. They didn't have to be Aiel.

He didn't have to be born on the slopes of Dragonmount persé. Or of a maiden wedded to no man.

 

It's all.. well.. figure of speech. Even if it happened literally.

 

It did indeed happen literally. Rand was bannered accross the sky. The Dragon Banner had nothing to do with that, and was never bannered across the sky.

 

The fallacy (being a flawed logical connection) was in linking the word 'bannered' with the dragon banner. The first is a verb, the act of displaying something above something else. The second is an object, a piece of cloth.

 

If you think they mean the same thing, take a moment to consider the words 'maid' and 'maiden'.

 

Since the Heroes are bound to the Wheel and to the Horn, is it so wierd to think the Horn is a function of the Pattern?

 

Well, firstly we do know the horn was constructed--it, in itself, uses a function of the pattern--by tapping into the bound heroes--but it cannot be described in itself to be a function of the pattern.

 

But im not sure i understand the relevance?

 

And -one more time- please provide that quote from Moiraine.

I provide the apropriate quotes.

 

Lol, i couldn't find it for a moment, then i remembered it was Siuan's comment, not Moiraine's. My bad.

 

 

"The Horn cannot be left in the wrong hands, especially in Darkfriend hands. Those who come to answer its call, will come whoever blows it, and they are bound to the Horn, not to the Light."

 

[tGH - Leavetakings]

 

All the old points still hold, however. Consider...

 

There was a stir among those listening. Everyone believed that the Heroes called back from the grave would fight for the Light, if they fought for the shadow instead....

 

[tGH - Leavetakings]

 

[Mik]

It did indeed happen literally. Rand was bannered accross the sky. The Dragon Banner had nothing to do with that, and was never bannered across the sky.

Atleast you say it happened literally. About the rest;....... I'm stunned. I thought you knew the books better. What you just stated is plain wrong.

 

The Dragon Banner is what proclaimed him in the sky. Without it, Rand would be just 'a man' fighting. The only thing that made him recognisable as the Dragon Reborn was that banner. It is the presence of the Dragon Banner that did the proclaiming. How you still try to twist and turn this in a 'Hawkwing wanted the Banner for a feeling' is -also literally- beyond me.

 

By ship and horse the stories spread, by merchant wagon and man on foot, told and retold, changing yet always alike at the heart, to Arad Doman and Tarabon and beyond, of signs and portents in the sky above Falme.

.../ /....

Yet one thing every tale had the same. At their head rode a man whose face had been seen in the sky above Falme, and they rode under the banner of the Dragon Reborn.

 

The fallacy (being a flawed logical connection) was in linking the word 'bannered' with the dragon banner. The first is a verb, the act of displaying something above something else. The second is an object, a piece of cloth.

You got to be kidding me!

 

It's perfectly logical to link 'bannered acros the sky' that is mentioned in the Prophecies of the Dragon, to the Dragon Banner that was depicted in the sky when that same bit of prophecy was being fullfilled! You're grasping at straws to keep the card-house you build erect.

 

A banner is an object allright; an object to display something above someone. Your explanation is trying to complicate that wich is easy (again). A banner is all about 'the act of displaying something above something else'.

 

It would make more sense to say that 'destroying his people with the leaf', couldn't mean Rand taking away the essence of the Aiel society by telling them about the Covenant. Since the Covenant is all about a way of life (Way of the Leaf) while a leaf in and by itself is a green thing on a tree (and a verb to boot!). (It doesn't make much sense at all, but it would still make more sense, because there isn't a direct relation between 'leaf' & 'way of living', while there is between 'banner' & 'bannered'.)

 

If you think they mean the same thing, take a moment to consider the words 'maid' and 'maiden'.

No, because your reasoning & 'example' make no sense whatsoever.

 

The Dragon Banner was displayed in the sky over Falme. (TGH, Chapter 50 - After)

The Dragon Banner proclaimed the man in the sky as the Dragon Reborn as Prophecized in the Karaethon Cycle. (TGH, Chapter 22 - Watchers)

 

That debunks your whole explanation about what Hawkwing meant by 'must' in relation to "we must follow the banner. And the Dragon"

At the same time it makes mincemeat of how it was an 'emotional decision' for Hawkwing to ask the Dragon "Have you the Banner?"

 

Since the Heroes are bound to the Wheel and to the Horn, is it so wierd to think the Horn is a function of the Pattern?

Well, firstly we do know the horn was constructed--it, in itself, uses a function of the pattern--by tapping into the bound heroes--but it cannot be described in itself to be a function of the pattern.

And yet, age after age after age, for as long as Birgitte can recall ("for so many turns that in her oldest faintest memories she recalls having had thousands of lives before that one"), the Heroes are bound to the Wheel & called by the Horn.

How that rhymes with the fact that the Horn was made sometime during 'an earlier age' by mortal hands, I don't know.

 

But im not sure i understand the relevance?

You stated; "however Moiraine's comments and RJ's supports me over you."

The above was in response to the RJ's comments bit.

 

And -one more time- please provide that quote from Moiraine.

I provide the apropriate quotes.

Lol, i couldn't find it for a moment, then i remembered it was Siuan's comment, not Moiraine's. My bad.

You're right. It does not exist. And like I stated maybe 20 posts before this one;

 

About that Moiraine comment you keep talking about. Can either Luckers or Mr Ares (or someone else) please quote that bit from the books for me? I'd love to read it. I know Siuan said something that was 100% correct and was interpreted by Rand in a wrong way. Like ever so often in the books.

The irony was, that Mr Ares rants & rants about facts and ridicules others for how blind they are, while the whole case you guys build on the banner not being mentioned & Moirianes comments are both wrong. I find the irony hilarious. Especially because there's been a useless debate on Moiraines credibility, based on a comments she never made, that were used as fact.

You have to admire the irony of how Mr Ares always comes down on people like a ton of bricks.. and now is very very quiet.

 

Now about that comment from Siuan in TGH;

"The Horn cannot be left in the wrong hands, especially in Darkfriend hands. Those who come to answer its call, will come whoever blows it, and they are bound to the Horn, not to the Light."

 

[tGH - Leavetakings]

 

All the old points still hold, however. Consider...

 

There was a stir among those listening. Everyone believed that the Heroes called back from the grave would fight for the Light, if they fought for the shadow instead....

 

[tGH - Leavetakings]

Hah! Now that's flawed logic for you! And you should know it!

Siuan said nothing wrong: The Heroes answer the call of the Horn, regardless of who blows it. The Heroes are bound to the Horn (and Wheel), not to the Light.

It ties in perfectly with what the Heroes themselves (Bir & Gaidal) say: Bound to the Wheel and the Horn. And that the reason they are bound is to fight the Shadow.

Nowhere does it state the Heroes will follow the Hornsounder.

This ties in with the one time the Horn was used; the Hornsounder was ignored when commands were asked and given.

The Hornsounder was just asked -after the weave was set- to play the Horn as it was fitting.

 

Where you go wrong & what you tried to sell us as fact, Luckers, isn't fact at all, now is it?

The second quote is Rands interpretation of Aes Sedai words.  :)

And you know it; the whole Moiraine quote is non existant & the Siuan quote just doesn't cut it.

 

The Amyrlin said nothing wrong and fits exactly with what fryn & myself have been saying all along;

 

Not logical, fallacious. Just because I say black and someone else says white doesn't mean the answer is grey. It can just be that I am right. As it is, we know the Heroes will follow a DF if one should blow the Horn. This is fact. Any theory on the topic must take this into account. There is nothing to indicate that a banner is ever needed., as opposed to sometimes needed or desired. All this is fact.

Wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong.

Darkfriends can blow the Horn. Fact. Heroes will come to the Horn. Fact. Where do the Heroes say they will fight for a Darkfriend?

In fact, a Hero (Birgitte) literally states "they are bound to wheel & horn, to fight the Shadow". (fact)

The bad part about a Darkfriend blowing the Horn is, that the Horn is tied to that Darkfriend.

 

Cheers,

Mik

[mb]

ALL RIGHT BACK ON TOPIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

going out on a limb (i seem to do it a lot)

 

shivan and his sister is either Elayne's kids or Elayne and Gwayen

 

discuss/flame

 

Shivan and Calian I think would be born the same time and at the moment of the new Age. Like I told in some number of posts ago, Elayne's babies would be one candidate and Aviendha's babies might be another candidate.

 

[Swigaro]

 

The Dragon Banner was displayed in the sky over Falme. (TGH, Chapter 50 - After)

The Dragon Banner proclaimed the man in the sky as the Dragon Reborn as Prophecized in the Karaethon Cycle. (TGH, Chapter 22 - Watchers)

 

 

 

As I recall from my most recent re-read, Rand and Ishamael's fight was displayed in the sky over Falme (and also projected over the battles where the other False Dragons were thrown down.  I apologize if I am misunderstanding your point, but wasn't Perrin carrying the Banner during the Battle with the Seanchan?  I do not recall any mention of the Banner being projected across the sky.  Granted, as one of your quotes points out, witnesses make the connection between the Banner and Rand, but I do not recall the Banner being some sort of a background for the air-borne combat.

[Luckers]

Atleast you say it happened literally. About the rest;....... I'm stunned. I thought you knew the books better. What you just stated is plain wrong.

 

The Dragon Banner is what proclaimed him in the sky. Without it, Rand would be just 'a man' fighting. The only thing that made him recognisable as the Dragon Reborn was that banner. It is the presence of the Dragon Banner that did the proclaiming. How you still try to twist and turn this in a 'Hawkwing wanted the Banner for a feeling' is -also literally- beyond me.

 

The banner wasn't present in the sky Mik. They literally were two dudes fighting, and thats all.

 

And i don't say it--it happened. They were bannered in the sky, the banner itself was not.

 

It's perfectly logical to link 'bannered acros the sky' that is mentioned in the Prophecies of the Dragon, to the Dragon Banner that was depicted in the sky when that same bit of prophecy was being fullfilled! You're grasping at straws to keep the card-house you build erect.

 

Actually it isn't,

 

Firstly, logic is the process of deductive reasoning through analysis of incident--it would not apply to the discussion of whether the use of the word 'bannered' implies the banner.

 

Secondly, the words have no functional relationship. If you think they do you need to, and forgive me for having to say this, go back to school.

 

 

 

A banner is an object allright; an object to display something above someone. Your explanation is trying to complicate that wich is easy (again). A banner is all about 'the act of displaying something above something else'.

 

Certainly, but the reverse is not true--to say that someone was bannered in the sky does not require the presense of a banner.

 

Which is rather the point.

 

The Dragon Banner was displayed in the sky over Falme. (TGH, Chapter 50 - After)

 

Actually it wasn't. The Dragon banner was with Rand and never displayed. Your quote says only that those that left Falme rode under the Dragon banner.

 

The Dragon Banner proclaimed the man in the sky as the Dragon Reborn as Prophecized in the Karaethon Cycle. (TGH, Chapter 22 - Watchers)

 

No, it didn't, Rand being bannered in the sky did.

 

And yet, age after age after age, for as long as Birgitte can recall ("for so many turns that in her oldest faintest memories she recalls having had thousands of lives before that one"), the Heroes are bound to the Wheel & called by the Horn.

How that rhymes with the fact that the Horn was made sometime during 'an earlier age' by mortal hands, I don't know.

 

It doesn't. The fact that RJ stated that it was made during an earlier age by mortal hands does.

 

You stated; "however Moiraine's comments and RJ's supports me over you."

The above was in response to the RJ's comments bit.

 

Yes, i got that, but i still don't see the relevance... I mean, it false anyway, the horn was constructed, it taps into a function of the pattern, but it not one itself. But even were it a function how does that speak to RJ's comment.

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 12, 2008, 06:46:12 PM

Quote

And -one more time- please provide that quote from Moiraine.

I provide the apropriate quotes.

Lol, i couldn't find it for a moment, then i remembered it was Siuan's comment, not Moiraine's. My bad.

You're right. It does not exist. And like I stated maybe 20 posts before this one;

 

 

Quote from: Mik on November 09, 2008, 08:56:47 AM

About that Moiraine comment you keep talking about. Can either Luckers or Mr Ares (or someone else) please quote that bit from the books for me? I'd love to read it. I know Siuan said something that was 100% correct and was interpreted by Rand in a wrong way. Like ever so often in the books.

 

The irony was, that Mr Ares rants & rants about facts and ridicules others for how blind they are, while the whole case you guys build on the banner not being mentioned & Moirianes comments are both wrong. I find the irony hilarious. Especially because there's been a useless debate on Moiraines credibility, based on a comments she never made, that were used as fact.

You have to admire the irony of how Mr Ares always comes down on people like a ton of bricks.. and now is very very quiet.

 

Except of course it was real, stated by a different person, yet still real. I mean, your gleeful banter aside, do you have a specific point that alters the argument given that it was siuan not Moiraine that said that comment?

 

 

Hah! Now that's flawed logic for you! And you should know it!

Siuan said nothing wrong: The Heroes answer the call of the Horn, regardless of who blows it. The Heroes are bound to the Horn (and Wheel), not to the Light.

It ties in perfectly with what the Heroes themselves (Bir & Gaidal) say: Bound to the Wheel and the Horn. And that the reason they are bound is to fight the Shadow.

Nowhere does it state the Heroes will follow the Hornsounder.

This ties in with the one time the Horn was used; the Hornsounder was ignored when commands were asked and given.

The Hornsounder was just asked -after the weave was set- to play the Horn as it was fitting.

 

Where you go wrong & what you tried to sell us as fact, Luckers, isn't fact at all, now is it?

The second quote is Rands interpretation of Aes Sedai words. 

And you know it; the whole Moiraine quote is non existant & the Siuan quote just doesn't cut it.

 

The Amyrlin said nothing wrong and fits exactly with what fryn & myself have been saying all along

 

I stated quite succinctly the logic behind supporting that comment. Unless you have a specific point wherein it being siuan that said it as opposed to Moiraine I rather think the old points still hold.

[Mik]

I think it's a real shame you need truth shoved down your throat every goddamn step of the way, Luckers.

And your arguments are getting more harsh with every post. I don't think I've earned the shit you post about me at all.

Good example, mod.

Can't you just accept you're wrong for a change?

 

The banner wasn't present in the sky Mik. They literally were two dudes fighting, and thats all.

 

And i don't say it--it happened. They were bannered in the sky, the banner itself was not.

Is that why the Dragon Banner is mentioned in every (let me mention that again, because you didn't catch it the first time: every) story from Falme?

As I mentioned before, it couldn't have been his red curly hair that did the trick of proclaiming him Dragon Reborn, Luckers.

Note how the Dragon Banner and Rand his face are mentioned in the same sentence.

How could it be in the same in all and every story spreading from Falme, if it wasn't portraied in the sky?

 

One more time, just because you can't seem to understand when it doesn't suit your story:

 

By ship and horse the stories spread, by merchant wagon and man on foot, told and retold, changing yet always alike at the heart, to Arad Doman and Tarabon and beyond, of signs and portents in the sky above Falme.

 

Yet one thing every tale had the same [this being "always alike at the heart"...and what would that be? Here it is:].

At their head rode a man whose face had been seen in the sky above Falme, and they rode under the banner of the Dragon Reborn.

Note the word "and"? Now you can ridicule my schooling all you want, however cheap that is (and a bad example as a mod I might add). You can even start about my english which -may I remind you- is not my native tongue. But you cannot bend what is straight.

I will not allow it, however you twist and turn your story.

 

Secondly, the words have no functional relationship. If you think they do you need to, and forgive me for having to say this, go back to school.

You didn't have to say it. You choose to. And I resent that comment. So, no...not forgiven. It's lame and a cheap shot for someone of your stature on this board. It's a low blow against someone who just started actively participating by posting.

Pffff.... my respect for you and your WoT knowledge sinks with each of your posts.

 

A banner is an object allright; an object to display something above someone. Your explanation is trying to complicate that wich is easy (again). A banner is all about 'the act of displaying something above something else'.

Certainly, but the reverse is not true--to say that someone was bannered in the sky does not require the presense of a banner.

Which is rather the point.

And my point was, that the Dragon Banner was literally bannered acros the sky, together with Rand to proclaim him. And in that context, the words are linked. We're not talking about the reverse, so your whole grammar lesson is pointless and degrading. Besides, I like to think my english & my vocabulary are about as good as they can get (fluent), when you consider it's not my native language.

 

The Dragon Banner was displayed in the sky over Falme. (TGH, Chapter 50 - After)

Actually it wasn't. The Dragon banner was with Rand and never displayed. Your quote says only that those that left Falme rode under the Dragon banner.

Again, you totally ignore the text in the book.

I'd like to point out the word "and" in relation to "a man's face" & "under the Banner of the Dragon". Add to that the fact that those factors were always the same in every story spreading like wild-fire from Falme....

 

Besides, I seem to have the big man upstairs backing me up....it's not from a characters PoV, it's a narrators PoV; RJ.

And this is a quote I normally wouldn't need to post at all, because all the others speak for themselves, but you just don't want to read reason when it's shoved under your nose.

 

The wind lashed the long, white banner catching the moon above the Stone as if trying to rip it away. Along its length marched a sinuous figure like a legged serpent, golden-maned like a lion, scaled in scarlet and gold, seeming to ride the wind. Banner of prophecy, hoped for and dreaded. Banner of the Dragon. The Dragon Reborn. Harbinger of the world’s salvation, and herald of a new Breaking to come. As if outraged at such defiance, the wind dashed itself against the hard walls of the Stone. The Dragon banner floated, unheeding in the night, awaiting greater storms.

 

And, right after the story spreading about Falme, in that very same Chapter (50 - After)

....Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us [Hawkwing]. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time. [The Dragon Banner flying again in Falme-TAR, where the Heroes have "all of Time". Note the similarity with the quote above]

 

—from Charal Drianaan te Calamon,

The Cycle of the Dragon,

Author unknown, the Fourth Age

 

The Dragon Banner proclaimed the man in the sky as the Dragon Reborn as Prophecized in the Karaethon Cycle. (TGH, Chapter 22 - Watchers)

 

No, it didn't, Rand being bannered in the sky did.

Even if it wasn't 100% clear the banner was 'bannered acros the sky' also, it would still be bogus, Luckers; Noone knows Rands face from the next farmer-boy from the Two Rivers. It's his face in combination with the prophesized Dragon Banner, that proclaims him the Dragon. Not just Rands freckels.

 

Except of course it was real, stated by a different person, yet still real. I mean, your gleeful banter aside, do you have a specific point that alters the argument given that it was siuan not Moiraine that said that comment?

My gleefull banter was actually just a mirror for Mr Ares his stance. It wasn't gleefull; it was a sarcastic insult. Like most of Mr Ares his arrogant factless vomit in this thread.

 

And I suppose it doesn't matter wich Aes Sedai said it. The real point was, that it said nothing that disporved what fryn and myself said.

 

Hah! Now that's flawed logic for you! And you should know it!

Siuan said nothing wrong: The Heroes answer the call of the Horn, regardless of who blows it. The Heroes are bound to the Horn (and Wheel), not to the Light.

It ties in perfectly with what the Heroes themselves (Bir & Gaidal) say: Bound to the Wheel and the Horn. And that the reason they are bound is to fight the Shadow.

Nowhere does it state the Heroes will follow the Hornsounder.

This ties in with the one time the Horn was used; the Hornsounder was ignored when commands were asked and given.

The Hornsounder was just asked -after the weave was set- to play the Horn as it was fitting.

 

Where you go wrong & what you tried to sell us as fact, Luckers, isn't fact at all, now is it?

The second quote is Rands interpretation of Aes Sedai words. 

And you know it; the whole Moiraine quote is non existant & the Siuan quote just doesn't cut it.

 

The Amyrlin said nothing wrong and fits exactly with what fryn & myself have been saying all along

 

I stated quite succinctly the logic behind supporting that comment. Unless you have a specific point wherein it being siuan that said it as opposed to Moiraine I rather think the old points still hold.

The most simple asnwer is; Siuan said nothing that discredits the fact that the Heroes do not follow the Hornsounder; they just show up when the Horn is sounded.

 

What you used for your logic, was Rand's interpretation of Siuans words. And that's where it's skewed. Big Time;

You sold Rand's thoughts as Aes Sedai "truth", based on some old knowledge she must have read.. Pffft. Flawed.

[Luckers]

Ok then Mik, lets both be nicer.

 

Is that why the Dragon Banner is mentioned in every (let me mention that again, because you didn't catch it the first time: every) story from Falme?

 

What does one have to do with the other. 'bannered' and 'banner' are not the same thing--bannered, is, once more, an action. It is the process of displaying something above something else. Yes, the Dragon banner can be 'bannered', yet that is not what occured her--it is specifically stated that the Dragon himself would be bannered, and indeed he was--and the dragon banner was not.

 

 

Note the word "and"? Now you can ridicule my schooling all you want, however cheap that is (and a bad example as a mod I might add). You can even start about my english which -may I remind you- is not my native tongue. But you cannot bend what is straight.

 

I wasn't 'ridiculing' your schooling, i was questioning it... and indeed, it does make sense if english is your second language--for there is a difference between the words 'banner' and 'bannered'.

 

A banner is a cloth that is displayed above something--it is an object, and the word is a noun, a naming word.

 

To be 'bannered' is to be displayed above something, in order to represent somethin. It is a verb, a doing word.

 

A banner can be 'bannered'--its actualy counter-productive to say so, the very process of being a banner implies that it is being bannered--and indeed you never see it phrased that 'the banner was bannered above blah blah blah'.

 

The word 'bannered' is only used if the item is not a banner. For instance if people cut off the head of a captured enemy and displayed it as they marched into battle then the head would have been bannered--to be bannered it has to refer to something that is not normally used as a banner.

 

Which is all irrelevant--the prophecy states that Rand would be bannered above falme, and he was--there is no connection there to the actual banner.

 

as for your point--"At their head rode a man whose face had been seen in the sky above Falme, and they rode under the banner of the Dragon Reborn."

 

Mik--thats speaking of the group Moiraine gathered after Falme--the Shienarans. And its completely correct, they did ride under the banner. Which has nothing to do with this--the prophecy states that Rand would be bannered accross the sky in flame. He was. The banner had nothing to do with that, and that they rode under it days later implies nothing.

 

This seems linked with your misunderstanding about the linguistic differences between the words 'banner' and 'bannered'.

 

You didn't have to say it. You choose to. And I resent that comment. So, no...not forgiven. It's lame and a cheap shot for someone of your stature on this board. It's a low blow against someone who just started actively participating by posting.

Pffff.... my respect for you and your WoT knowledge sinks with each of your posts.

 

With respect, it wasn't designed to be a cheap shot--you seem to have a functional misunderstanding of how the english language works...

 

And my point was, that the Dragon Banner was literally bannered acros the sky, together with Rand to proclaim him. And in that context, the words are linked. We're not talking about the reverse, so your whole grammar lesson is pointless and degrading. Besides, I like to think my english & my vocabulary are about as good as they can get (fluent), when you consider it's not my native language.

 

But thats just the point--the Dragon banner WAS NOT bannered accross the sky. Rand and Ishamael were, the Dragon Banner was with Perrin.

 

It's not designed to be an attack, we are dealing with some of the most subtle inflections in the english language, even native speakers slip up--i actually used the maid and maiden example because that was how it was taught to me, when i made the mistake with those two.

 

Again, you totally ignore the text in the book.

I'd like to point out the word "and" in relation to "a man's face" & "under the Banner of the Dragon". Add to that the fact that those factors were always the same in every story spreading like wild-fire from Falme....

 

Actually i don't--that comment speaks of the group riding away from Falme days later--the man who's face was seen above Falme rode at the head of that group, and above that group was displayed the dragon banner.

 

That quote does not even touch on the incident of the Dragon being bannered.

 

Quote from: TSR, Chapter 2 - Whirlpools in the Pattern

The wind lashed the long, white banner catching the moon above the Stone as if trying to rip it away. Along its length marched a sinuous figure like a legged serpent, golden-maned like a lion, scaled in scarlet and gold, seeming to ride the wind. Banner of prophecy, hoped for and dreaded. Banner of the Dragon. The Dragon Reborn. Harbinger of the world’s salvation, and herald of a new Breaking to come. As if outraged at such defiance, the wind dashed itself against the hard walls of the Stone. The Dragon banner floated, unheeding in the night, awaiting greater storms.

 

And, right after the story spreading about Falme, in that very same Chapter (50 - After)

 

Quote from: TGH, Chapter 50 - After

....Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us [Hawkwing]. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time. [The Dragon Banner flying again in Falme-TAR, where the Heroes have "all of Time". Note the similarity with the quote above]

 

—from Charal Drianaan te Calamon,

The Cycle of the Dragon,

Author unknown, the Fourth Age

 

This is, again, you linking your points to quotes that show nothing. Seriously, by what basis do you claim any of that is whats implied? The wording itself decries your interpretation.

 

Even if it wasn't 100% clear the banner was 'bannered acros the sky' also, it would still be bogus, Luckers; Noone knows Rands face from the next farmer-boy from the Two Rivers. It's his face in combination with the prophesized Dragon Banner, that proclaims him the Dragon. Not just Rands freckels.

 

Again, the banner was not 'bannered accross the sky'. It was with Perrin, not with Rand, and your quote of the group riding under the banner takes place days later.

 

And people do know Rand's face--people specifically drew it when he appeared in the sky. Which was the point, him appearing in the sky named him dragon, and differentiated him from all those other Two Rivers farm boys--who by the way would have had completely different colouring to Rand, and would have as such been pretty easy to tell apart from him.

 

What you used for your logic, was Rand's interpretation of Siuans words. And that's where it's skewed. Big Time;

You sold Rand's thoughts as Aes Sedai "truth", based on some old knowledge she must have read.. Pffft. Flawed.

 

Actually, my point was that Rand's thoughts are indicative of the culture belief--and it was not just Rand's thoughts, it was the dismayed moaning of those with him too. The point being that the belief they grew up with was that the Horn would only work for the Light--a belief that Siuan would have shared. Which speaks specifically to the significance of the source of information that changed Siuan's opinion.

 

Consider, if you will, the beliefs of people in religion... how specific would the information need to be to disabuse someone of that belief, so stoicly imbred in childhood. I mean the clear proof would be Evolution and Creationism--despite the collosal ammount of evidence supporting evolution people still cleave to creationism.

 

Siuan is not an idiot, but cultural truths like this are not easily dismissed. That in itself speaks to the significance of the detail of whatever source changed her mind.

 

And you know my opinion of the 'the horn could summon them, and then the dragon could ignore the commands and lead everyone off to buy maccas' argument. It's utterly absurd, and completely unnessasary.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

You have to admire the irony of how Mr Ares always comes down on people like a ton of bricks...and now is very, very quiet.

Did you stop to think why that might be? Considering on the day you posted that, and the day before, between Armistice Day and the weekend, I had been quiet on all threads might just imply the reason why I was quiet had nothing to do with you and whatever point you happened to be making, wouldn't you say? You see, I have this thing called a "family", and this "family" occasionally makes demands on my time. Every now and then I do have to interact with them, even if I usually end up regretting it. And sometimes, the time I spend with them means I don't have time to post here. You should know the feeling. Given that Luckers appears to have said just about everything already, given the length and number of some of the replies, it is easier for me to to reply to other threads. More fun too. Really, what more is there to be said? If you want, I might get back to you later when I have more time, but what good would it do?

 

Can't you just accept you're wrong for a change?

He can. So maybe you should ask yourself why there isn't such an admission here?

 

ALL RIGHT BACK ON TOPIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

going out on a limb (i seem to do it a lot)

 

shivan and his sister is either Elayne's kids or Elayne and Gwayen

 

discuss/flame

They appeared at Falme, therefore they cannot be Elayne and Gawyn as Elayne and Gawyn were alive and in the world at the time. They may be Elayne's kids. Such is a possibility. But there is really nothing to debate either way. I can flame you if you want, but that wouldn't really help anyone. As for back on topic, the original topic leaves nothing else to discuss really. Getting back on topic would kill the thread.

 

Your logic as to why the example doesnt fit' date=' I follow completely.  I agree with the differences. The point of the post was just to state that simply because she is Aes Sedai, does not mean that she is correct. It was wholly to produce the train of thought that we should be able to agree on; Aes Sedai does not equal Truth.[/quote']Indeed it does not. But nor does it automatically equal falsehood (not that you were claiming it did). But the nature of the difference between what she said and what everyone else believes is very great, and there must have been good reason for her to believe what she said.

 

Because Moir said x, Hawkwing meant x.

Hawkwing said x. X could mean a or b. Siuan said y. Y means either one is wrong, or x doesn't mean a. Logically, y being wrong is unlikely, to say the least. So Hawkwing's x cannot have meant a. However, as there is no contradiction between b and y, then the chances are that x means b. No contradictions. No problems. Everyone is right. You see the reasoning, I trust?

 

Agreed, she must have had some kind of source to believe the way she did. My whole issue with using that as a basis was that it was stated as a reliable source. When in fact we cant pin down that source definitively. And so we get it second hand here. Which is heresay. Heresay that was stated earlier in the thread, to which I put a question to.

We do not need to know the source to know that it is reliable. We can tell from the nature of what she said. There must be good reason for her to say something so contradictory in nature to what everyone else believes true. Very good reason.

 

My intent, was not to be rude, but to present a different way of looking at something that was still, as far as I could tell, under discussion.

Yes, sorry. I know you weren't meaning to be rude, I shouldn't have said that.

[Mik]

Ok then Mik, lets both be nicer.

Ok. We both (all?) have the same goal; understanding the books better. I’d like to picture us trying to achieve that, more as a joint venture, then a public display of who thinks has the biggest cahunas.

 

Should we take this discussion to another (new) thread?

I imagine poor Shivan must not be feeling overly special right now.. hehehe.

(Can you ‘split’ a topic? Take the relevant Horn posts out of this one to a different thread on the Horn?)

 

I think this is the last time I’m going to give this a go in this thread though. It’s a tad frustrating to see this discussion take so much time, just to convince you - of all people. The only reason I actually keep on trying is because I know how other people on this board always (myself included actually) value your input. But therein also lies the heart of the problem this time; you’re wrong and if I don’t convince you of that, how can I expect others to understand. Most will follow you blindly, while my voice carries little to no weight around here.

 

Now, enough ‘drivel’…

Your post & my response;

 

Is that why the Dragon Banner is mentioned in every (let me mention that again, because you didn't catch it the first time: every) story from Falme?

What does one have to do with the other. 'bannered' and 'banner' are not the same thing--bannered, is, once more, an action. It is the process of displaying something above something else. Yes, the Dragon banner can be 'bannered', yet that is not what occurred here--it is specifically stated that the Dragon himself would be bannered, and indeed he was--and the dragon banner was not.

Listen Luckers, the only mistake you make here, is denying the fact that the Dragon Banner was displayed over Falme.

 

I agree with you on your English lessons this time (because you say a banner can be ‘bannered’), but they are irrelevant & obsolete. And that’s what I’m trying to get across to you for the past 4 posts now, which is getting a tad frustrating.

 

And I even understand –and agree- with what you are saying about a banner being ‘bannered across the sky’, but I didn’t wrote the books, so go tell RJ. Besides, as I was explaining earlier; that’s usually how the Prophecies of the Dragon work. Nine times out of ten, they happen in a literal way. Even more literal then you’d expect up front.

 

Again, I didn’t write the books, so go explain Harriet how her late husband and herself have taken a word (bannered) so literal in relation to the word ‘banner’, that it’s almost a mockery of all your English grammar lessons. It. Is. Irrelevant.

 

Note the word "and"? Now you can ridicule my schooling all you want, however cheap that is (and a bad example as a mod I might add). You can even start about my english which -may I remind you- is not my native tongue. But you cannot bend what is straight.

I wasn't 'ridiculing' your schooling, i was questioning it... and indeed, it does make sense if english is your second language--for there is a difference between the words 'banner' and 'bannered'.

 

A banner is a cloth that is displayed above something--it is an object, and the word is a noun, a naming word.

 

To be 'bannered' is to be displayed above something, in order to represent something. It is a verb, a doing word.

 

A banner can be 'bannered'--its actualy counter-productive to say so, the very process of being a banner implies that it is being bannered--and indeed you never see it phrased that 'the banner was bannered above blah blah blah'.

You’re doing it again; trying to teach me English…..

Again I have to say; I understand, I agree, but in this case, you’re points are all moot. And like you –finally- admitted yourself just now; a banner can be ‘bannered’, and that was my initial point. Because it happened.

 

The word 'bannered' is only used if the item is not a banner. For instance if people cut off the head of a captured enemy and displayed it as they marched into battle then the head would have been bannered--to be bannered it has to refer to something that is not normally used as a banner.

 

Which is all irrelevant--the prophecy states that Rand would be bannered above falme, and he was--there is no connection there to the actual banner.

Raaagh!!! *pulls hair out of head* (;).

 

as for your point--"At their head rode a man whose face had been seen in the sky above Falme, and they rode under the banner of the Dragon Reborn."

 

Mik--thats speaking of the group Moiraine gathered after Falme--the Shienarans. And its completely correct, they did ride under the banner. Which has nothing to do with this--the prophecy states that Rand would be bannered accross the sky in flame. He was. The banner had nothing to do with that, and that they rode under it days later implies nothing.

….. Luckers, mate….please do yourself a favor; re-read the final 4 chapters of TGH.

 

Rand was in a ‘coma’ for five whole days as a direct result of his battle with Ba’alzamon in the sky. He was found by Min right after his fight and didn’t wake up for five days, when they had left Falme already.

There were drawings shoved under Rand’s nose the minute he woke up, depicting Rand battling Ishy with the Dragon Banner in the background.

 

How could Rand have been riding at the front of the Shienarans, if he was unconscious for those five days? How could the Dragon Banner be  in the background on the drawings?

 

No, Luckers; Chapter 50 is all about the fight in the sky. And the heart of every story is the same, because ‘the heart of every story’ was in the sky; The Heroes riding into battle “and” Rand fighting Ishy.

 

Please, please, please just accept the fact that you are mistaken this time;

About the word ‘must’… about Hawkwings ‘feelings’…. About the Dragon Banner not being bannered across the sky.

 

Accept the fact that the Dragon Banner was literally ‘needed’ & mentioned according to prophecy. You were wrong about the Moiraine quote and it was actually Siuan’s where you mistakenly thought that Rand’s interpretation of Siuans words was a part of what you thought Moiraine had said somewhere in the books.

 

All this talk of grammar (on bannered, must, feelings & whatnot) was nice, but it’s wrong in this particular case. I, nor fryn need extra schooling.

 

This seems linked with your misunderstanding about the linguistic differences between the words 'banner' and 'bannered'.

*bites on tongue & closes eyes*

For the final time; I understand the differences perfectly.

And for the last time; it is irrelevant in this case.

You started by saying ‘bannered’ couldn’t mean depeicting a banner. That’s what I replied to, saying it could mean a banner and in this particular case it did mean depicting that banner.

 

You didn't have to say it. You choose to. And I resent that comment. So, no...not forgiven. It's lame and a cheap shot for someone of your stature on this board. It's a low blow against someone who just started actively participating by posting.

Pffff.... my respect for you and your WoT knowledge sinks with each of your posts.

 

With respect, it wasn't designed to be a cheap shot--you seem to have a functional misunderstanding of how the english language works...

I can live with that. I feel you mix up your misinterpretation of the Cycle with my understanding of English grammar.

 

You’ll never read me stating I cannot misinterpret something. Or that I’m always free of making (grammatical or other) mistakes. But that’s not the case this time.

 

And my point was, that the Dragon Banner was literally bannered acros the sky, together with Rand to proclaim him. And in that context, the words are linked. We're not talking about the reverse, so your whole grammar lesson is pointless and degrading. Besides, I like to think my english & my vocabulary are about as good as they can get (fluent), when you consider it's not my native language.

But thats just the point--the Dragon banner WAS NOT bannered accross the sky. Rand and Ishamael were, the Dragon Banner was with Perrin.

 

“We—we saw it all,” Min said in a faint voice. She put a hand over one of Rand’s comfortingly.

 

Moiraine reached under her cloak again and came out with a rolled parchment, one of the large sheets such as the street artists in Falme used. The chalks were a little smudged when she unfurled it, but the picture was still clear enough. A man whose face was a solid flame fought with a staff against another with a sword among clouds where lightning danced, and behind them rippled the Dragon banner. Rand’s face was easily recognizable.

 

“How many have seen that?” he demanded. “Tear it up. Burn it.”

 

The Aes Sedai let the parchment roll back up. “It would do no good, Rand. I bought that two days gone, in a village we passed through. There are hundreds of them, perhaps thousands, and the tale is being told everywhere of how the Dragon battled the Dark One in the skies above Falme.”

See? Rand’s face and Dragon Banner drawn together…

 

It's not designed to be an attack, we are dealing with some of the most subtle inflections in the english language, even native speakers slip up--i actually used the maid and maiden example because that was how it was taught to me, when i made the mistake with those two.

Again, you are trying to overcomplicate it by trying to explain how subtle it all is. And yes, it is subtle, but not the way you view it.

 

The subtlety lies not in the grammar, but in RJ hiding how things truly work wrapped in tiny bits and pieces throughout the whole series of books. At first glance, the Horn appears to summon Heroes who will fight for whoever calls them. Dig a little deeper and you find out the Hornsounder is just that; the sounder of the Horn of Valere;

The Heroes show up because the Hornsounder uses the Horn, but they must follow the Dragon (and his Banner) into battle, to battle the Shadow. For that is why they were bound to the Wheel (and Horn) in the first place.

 

Again, you totally ignore the text in the book.

I'd like to point out the word "and" in relation to "a man's face" & "under the Banner of the Dragon". Add to that the fact that those factors were always the same in every story spreading like wild-fire from Falme....

Actually i don't--that comment speaks of the group riding away from Falme days later--the man who's face was seen above Falme rode at the head of that group, and above that group was displayed the dragon banner.

 

That quote does not even touch on the incident of the Dragon being bannered.

Ouch, wrong. See above; Rand was in a coma. “Chapter 50 – After”, is about the Falme battle only. How could Rand ride at the head of the Shienarans? We also know for a fact Rand charged into battle at the head of the Heroes with the Dragon Banner overhead.

Then the Heroes fought a battle –linked- to Rands fight. That’s what everyone saw in the sky.

 

Quote from: TSR, Chapter 2 - Whirlpools in the Pattern

The wind lashed the long, white banner catching the moon above the Stone as if trying to rip it away. Along its length marched a sinuous figure like a legged serpent, golden-maned like a lion, scaled in scarlet and gold, seeming to ride the wind. Banner of prophecy, hoped for and dreaded. Banner of the Dragon. The Dragon Reborn. Harbinger of the world’s salvation, and herald of a new Breaking to come. As if outraged at such defiance, the wind dashed itself against the hard walls of the Stone. The Dragon banner floated, unheeding in the night, awaiting greater storms.

 

And, right after the story spreading about Falme, in that very same Chapter (50 - After)

 

Quote from: TGH, Chapter 50 - After

....Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us [Hawkwing]. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time. [The Dragon Banner flying again in Falme-TAR, where the Heroes have "all of Time". Note the similarity with the quote above]

 

—from Charal Drianaan te Calamon,

The Cycle of the Dragon,

Author unknown, the Fourth Age

This is, again, you linking your points to quotes that show nothing. Seriously, by what basis do you claim any of that is whats implied? The wording itself decries your interpretation.

The first quote literally shows the Dragon Banner being mentioned as “Banner of prophesy”. Not by a character, so we know beyond any doubt it’s not a characters interpretation. RJ states for a fact, that the Dragon Banner is a Banner of Prophesy.

 

I just also tied it to prophecy from the Cycle mentioned straight after Falme. That’s “subtle inflections” for you in my book. I think it’s a shame you don’t pick those up, when waved in front of your nose.

 

And you know my opinion of the 'the horn could summon them, and then the dragon could ignore the commands and lead everyone off to buy maccas' argument. It's utterly absurd, and completely unnessasary.

Ow ow ow. Coming on really strong again. I think it’s those remarks that harden the discussion.

 

Well, I’m sorry that you feel it’s absurd. What commands was the Dragon ignoring by the way? He gave them.

 

“You ride to find the Horn of Valere,” [siuan] said, “and the hope of the world rides with you. The Horn cannot be left in the wrong hands, especially in Darkfriend hands. Those who come to answer its call, will come whoever blows it [true], and they are bound to the Horn [true], not to the Light [true, they are not bound to the Light. Yet we have Birgitte stating that the Heroes are bound to the Wheel & Horn ‘to fight the Shadow’].”

 

[Rand’s PoV] There was a stir among the listening men. Everyone believed that those heroes called back from the grave would fight for the Light. If they could fight for the Shadow, instead...[spe-cu-la-tion by Rand, based on Siuans words, intended or not]

Siuan never said one word wrong. She used how Aes Sedai cannot lie to influence the group that were to retrieve the Horn with the importance of her ‘charge’.

It’s what Aes Sedai do best; They manipulate.

Rand took the bait. And so did you.

It was Rand who thought Siuans words meant that the Heroes will follow a Darkfriend, but Siuan never said that; regardless if she was implying it, or not.

 

There’s also the fact that Hawkwing listened to and followed the commands of the Dragon and never even blinks at Mat until ‘the weave is set’, proves how you and Rand interpreted Siuans words wrong.

Hawkwing didn’t follow the Dragon Banner & the Dragon because he ‘felt it was the right thing to do’, but because he had to.

(probably by prescripts stronger then Law).

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

 

 

 

Sidenote:

 

If you want, I might get back to you later when I have more time, but what good would it do?

My honest opinion? If you keep on posting like you did in parts I quoted from just one of your posts below, please don’t bother.

 

This one post is insulting, bordering absurd parallels to Hitler & Stalin, is flat out degrading to myself and fryn and is wrong in certain aspects while brought as the Almighty Truth (“facts” that don’t even exist in the books).

 

Frankly, I don’t understand how you managed to get so much leeway, to be such a blunt asshole most of the time to just about everyone and their dog when you feel like it.

 

I must admit, your replies used to be funny with just the right touch of irony to bring a smile to my face when I read them.

Lately (and lately being more then a year IMO) they are just plain rude & degrading. The tone is nowhere near funny anymore (imho)

 

Your posts inspire others –like myself I have to admit with not a small amount of shame- to retort with the same aggressiveness and lack of respect.

 

Taken in isolation, Mik's and Fryn's answer is as valid as Majsju's or Luckers's. But these words do not exist in a vacuum. There are other sources, such as Moiraine and RJ, and they disprove certain otherwise viable theories. Mik's and Fryn's opinions do not take all the evidence into account. [My quotes come from all over the books, where are yours?] That other evidence disproves this theory. It is no longer viable. It doesn't work. Opinions are fine in the absence of facts, but the facts prove this wrong. This is not an agree to disagree situation. This is a YOU ARE WRONG situation. The only problem now is battering it into the skulls of those who still struggle to comprehend this simple fact. Case proven. Not opinion. Fact. [Rude, wrong & insulting]

 

What's the viable source that Moir pulled from?

We do not know, but the fact she was able to say something in direct contradiction to the facts as everyone else understands them, and do so as stating a fact, not mere supposition, means such a source must exist, or Moiraine was lying. And we know she can't lie. We do not know what the source was, but we know from how she said it that she must have one. Simple fact. Not opinion. If your opinion disagrees, your opinion is worthless. She had a source. Fact. This has been explained. Earlier in the thread. [Rude, wrong & insulting]

 

At the same time, Hawkwings comments directly suggest this.

Hawkwings comments suggest themselves to more than one possible explanation. Moiraine's comments rule out Mik's. Fact. [wrong, ironic too, because of the 'fact']

 

Well, maybe that was a desire to type with caps and annoy the hell out of someone

Something more annoying than caps lock: idiots who refuse to read the arguments in a thread, or fail to understand those arguments when stated clearly. I find such very rude, and tend not to react well to it.

 

I know some of the following has been addressed, but sometimes you really have to batter things into the heads of the hard of understanding. [Rude & insulting]

 

Fact; Hawkwing didn't just say that for dramatic effect; he couldn't advance without that banner flying.

Wrong. That is an opinion. You need to learn to distinguish the two [insulting]

. It is not a fact. It may be a viable interpretation, but it is not the only one. Opinion.

 

Should a man have his own views? Discuss.

That’s a silly question. Isn’t that what gives a “forum” it’s right of existence? Different viewpoints being discussed by all. Hehe! Funny!

This forum exists, but does it have a right to? Legally, yes, but this is not a question of legality. People have a lot of opinions, many uninformed, many stupid, many outright destructive. Was Hitler entitled to his views on the Jews? If so, was he entitled to express his opinions? Was Stalin entitled to a belief that a million deaths is just statistics? Are people allowed these opinions? Should they be? [Excuse me? Did you just pull Hitler & Stalin into a discussion about 'opinion on fantasy' with me.? Come on, man. Even the slight suggestion of comparing my opinion with theirs should be avoided IMO]

 

1. Heroes called.

2. Heroes chit chat

3. Hawking tries to charge but can't (note he doesn't not charge for sentimental reasons)

4. Hawking asks for the banner, and states they follow banner/dragon

5. Heroes fight

6. The fight is 100% dependant on Rand's fight with ishy (If rand loses the battle is lost... note the heroes on their own in this fight will not mean success) - This ties directly into to the heroes must follow the dragon.

1 is right, 2 is right, 3 is right up until the brackets which contain some crap made up by you and Mik [rude]

, 4 and 5 are right, 6 is partly right, given that the fight is dependant upon the actions of both Rand and Ishy, so the sides are dependant on both men.

If the dragon is not needed by the horn, care to explain why the battle and the heroes actions were so dependant on what Rand did?

The Wheel was making sure everyone knew the Dragon was reborn. Not the Horn. You do know the difference between the two, don't you? [insulting]

Posts like this are not uncommen from your hand.

I think those should be frowned upon, yet you always get away with them.

I guess everyone -even mods- have come to expect them from you. *shrugs*

 

You asked if I wanted you to post? Not like the above please, because they happen to bring out the worst in me too.

 

[Swigaro]

I have been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now.  I even threw in my 2 cents a time or two.  When I read your last post, Mik, I wanted to reply immediately, but I was at work, without the texts to reference.  You have been defending your point very fervently, and I respect that.  I figured, if I am going to disagree with you, I aught to check my sources (the text) before I do so. 

 

That being said, I went back and read the actual account of the lead up to and the battle over Falme.  The banner of the Dragon Reborn is referred to specifically in two key places in Chapter 47, The Grave is no Bar to my Call. 

 

First (Hardback P. 560):

 

Perrin hesitated only an instant before swinging down off his horse and striding into the mist.  There came a chopping sound, and when he returned, he carried a straight length of sapling shorn of its branches.  "Give it (the banner) to me, Rand," he said gravely.  "If they need it...  Give it to me."

    Hastily, Rand helped him tie the banner to the pole.  When Perrin remounted, pole in hand, a current of air seemed to ripple the pale length of the banner, so the serpentine Dragon appeared to move, alive.  The wind did not touch the heavy fog, only the banner

 

Second (Hardback P. 561):

 

Rand was aware of other things too. Artur Hawkwing and the other heroes meeting the Seanchan in the dense fog. Perrin, with the banner, swinging his axe, more to fend off those who tried to reach him than harm them.  Matt still blowing wild notes on the Horn of Valare.  Hurin down from his saddle, fighting with short sword and sword-breaker in the way he knew.  It seemed as if the Seanchan numbers would overwhelm them in one rush, yet it was the dark-armored Seanchan who fell back.

 

Take note, also that this last quote above, is the last time that the banner is mentioned in this chapter, and literally in the actual battle between Rand and Ba'alzamon.  The banner is firmly on the ground in Perrin's hands the entire time the battle between Rand and Ba'alzamon is going on the ground.  It is not in the air, at least no further in the air than the sapling Perrin tied it to lifted it. 

 

All of that being said, yes, there were pictures drawn that depicted the battle in the sky in front of the banner.  They were drawn by people who had seen the battle and the banner who were using artistic license (IMO) to make a more compelling depiction.  Yes, there were thousands of tales describing things in different fashions that spread far and wide.  Neither of these points are evidence to support the banner displayed in the sky during Rand's fight with Ba'alzamon, quite the contrary, in fact.  Remember the phrase that begins every book, "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass leaving memory that become legend, then fade to myth and are long forgot when that Age comes again."  The quote from the epilogue is supposed to show how much the story changed, not to support what actually happened there.  As there is no specific text that states that the banner was displayed during the battle, you can't say an excerpt from the epilogue, that begins by saying how much the story changed as proof that the banner was seen in the sky.  Finally look again at the sentence that represents the points that were the same in all of the tales told about the battle:

 

Yet one thing every tale had the same.  At their head (the band of heroes) rode a man whose face was seen in the sky above Falme, and they rode under the banner of The Dragon Reborn.

 

If RJ meant to say that the banner was displayed in the sky, would he not have said, "... whose face and banner were seen in the sky above Falme?"  The banner is tied to the forces the man who fought in the sky lead, not to the man himself.  It refers to the fact that when The Heros, led by Rand, first departed to battle the Seanchan, Rand was in the lead and Perrin was proudly flying the banner above him, as Matt was blowing away on a magic horn everyone within miles could hear.  Is it any wonder everyone saw the banner, then saw Rand in the sky and connected the two?  Look here:

 

"With your permission ... Lord Rand.  Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn?  Fitting that the Horn of Valare should sing us into battle.  Bannerman, will you advance?"  Mat sounded the Horn again, long and high --- the mists rang with it --- and Perrin heeled his horse forward.  Rand drew the heron-mark blade and rode between them.

 

There it is. As the battle to throw the Seanchan back begins, Rand flanked by Perrin with the banner and Mat with The Horn of Valare lead the Heroes of the Horn into the fray.  This is what the tales refer to, the beginning of the battle.  Rand's aerial battle is a separate entity and the banner did not appear there. 

 

On another note (and this could have nothing to do with anything), I have been very careful to follow RJ's lead in this post.  "The Hero's of the Horn," and "The Horn of Valare," are capitalized every time they are mentioned.  The banner of the Dragon Reborn is always listed in lower case. I think that maybe, apart from its connection to Rand, the actual banner isn't all that important.

 

If you can point out where in the text of the actual account of the battle that the banner was displayed in the clouds above Falme, I will be the first to concede the point.  Don't give up on this thread.  Even though I don't agree with your point, I, for one, rather enjoy reading what you have to say.

 

Best... 

Swigaro...

 

[Mik]

You have been defending your point very fervently, and I respect that.  I figured, if I am going to disagree with you, I aught to check my sources (the text) before I do so.

Thanks,.. I think. ;)

How you can still disagree with me, I don’t really understand; it’s clear beyond any shadow of doubt that the Dragon Banner was visible in the sky. It’s also clear that the Dragon Banner is referred to by RJ as the ‘Banner of prophecy’.

 

But meh, I’ll answer your post anyway;

 

That being said, I went back and read the actual account of the lead up to and the battle over Falme.  The banner of the Dragon Reborn is referred to specifically in two key places in Chapter 47, The Grave is no Bar to my Call.

First of, it’s referred to in the Chapter at more points…. And more important points at that. Hawkwing specifically asking the Dragon for his Banner (and not for his Crown, favourite undies, Callandor,  whatever) was the best clue. Hawkwing stating that they have to follow the banner is another one.

Anyway, I’ll stick to your examples below..

 

First (Hardback P. 560):

 

Perrin hesitated only an instant before swinging down off his horse and striding into the mist.  There came a chopping sound, and when he returned, he carried a straight length of sapling shorn of its branches.  "Give it (the banner) to me, Rand," he said gravely.  "If they need it...  Give it to me."

     Hastily, Rand helped him tie the banner to the pole.  When Perrin remounted, pole in hand, a current of air seemed to ripple the pale length of the banner, so the serpentine Dragon appeared to move, alive.  The wind did not touch the heavy fog, only the banner

 

Second (Hardback P. 561):

 

Rand was aware of other things too. Artur Hawkwing and the other heroes meeting the Seanchan in the dense fog. Perrin, with the banner, swinging his axe, more to fend off those who tried to reach him than harm them.  Matt still blowing wild notes on the Horn of Valare.  Hurin down from his saddle, fighting with short sword and sword-breaker in the way he knew.  It seemed as if the Seanchan numbers would overwhelm them in one rush, yet it was the dark-armored Seanchan who fell back.

Your first quote is straight after Hawkwings statement that “the heroes come to the Horn, but they must follow the banner. And the Dragon” (pretty relevant). It’s from before the charge of the Heroes of the Horn, with Rand leading the charge. So this quote proves the Dragon Banner was out and flying, when Rand started the charge at the head of the Heroes.

 

We know this, because when they are charging, there is this bit (which you forgot to quote):

The wild cries Mat wrung from the Horn echoed in the fog [the TAR connection to the world], and the drumming of hooves as the horses picked up speed. Rand charged into the mists, wondering if he knew where he was headed. The clouds thickened, hiding the far ends of the rank of heroes galloping to either side of him [hey look; a column in full gallop with Rand at the head!], obscuring more and more, till he could see only Mat and Perrin and Hurin clearly. Hurin crouched low in his saddle, wide-eyed, urging his horse on. Mat sounding the Horn, and laughing between. Perrin, his yellow eyes glowing, the Dragon’s banner streaming behind him[Hey look! The Dragon Banner!].

Here’s your bit of prophecy…and what everyone saw in the sky, next to Rand fighting Ishy. First everyone could see the charge, then everyone could see the fight between Ishy and Rand.

 

Note, that this is the only time we see Rand do this; riding at the head of a column with the Dragon Banner overhead. It doesn’t happen before Falme… and it doesn’t happen for a fact in the 5 days afterwards. (Rand was unconscious for five whole days, right after his battle with Ishamael)

 

Compare that to what is written in Chapter 50 – After:

By ship and horse the stories spread, by merchant wagon and man on foot, told and retold, changing yet always alike at the heart,

 

Yet one thing every tale had the same. At their head rode a man whose face had been seen in the sky above Falme, and they rode under the banner of the Dragon Reborn.

The things people are speculating about, is who and how many people were in the column. But everyone saw that Dragon Banner at it’s front, with the boy leading the column later displayed fighting Ishamael. He must be the Dragon!

 

Your second quote just shows that Perrin still has the Dragon Banner up after the charge, meaning he didn’t drop it and that he has a ‘Bannermans courage’ to hold on to it, despite fighting for his life. (as later mentioned by Birgitte to Perrin in TAR at the Tower of Ghenji)

 

So, in conclusion;

- Rand was at the head of a column only once in the days leading to Falme or in the aftermath; when charging into battle with the Heroes of the Horn.

- When Rand and the Heroes (Hawkwing too) charged, the Dragon Banner was flying.

- The Dragon Banner moves on the wind, somewhere where the Heroes had ‘all of time’ (“a current of air seemed to ripple the pale length of the banner, so the serpentine Dragon appeared to move, alive.)

- Drawings depicting “Rand and Ishy fighting with the Dragon Banner rippling behind them”, were drawn hundreds if not thousands of times. One of those pictures was bought by Moiraine only 2 days after the fight, while Rand was still unconscious.

- RJ called the Dragon Banner a “Banner of prophecy”.

- the Karaethon Cycle hides the banner in it’s wording twice (TGH, Chapter 50 – After & TGH, Chapter 22 - Watchers)

 

Take note, also that this last quote above, is the last time that the banner is mentioned in this chapter, and literally in the actual battle between Rand and Ba'alzamon.  The banner is firmly on the ground in Perrin's hands the entire time the battle between Rand and Ba'alzamon is going on the ground.  It is not in the air, at least no further in the air than the sapling Perrin tied it to lifted it.

As shown above, we can draw a small time-line when we know for a fact that the Dragon Banner is flying. What you call “firmly on the ground”, I call “somewhere in the ‘twilight-zone’ between TAR and this world”. We know per Birgittes words the Heroes were not at Falme in the flesh. Add to that all the fog & mist when the Horn is blown, Birgitte stating they ‘had all of time’, and how Rand was neither above nor under Falme (something like that).

Rand wasn’t fighting in the sky; he was fighting partly in TAR and partly in our world; it was just displayed in the sky.

 

All of that being said, yes, there were pictures drawn that depicted the battle in the sky in front of the banner.  They were drawn by people who had seen the battle and the banner who were using artistic license (IMO) to make a more compelling depiction.

….

Next to the fact, that you’re inventing stuff on the spot, how does that make the Dragon Banner a banner of prophecy?

 

It’s so funny how at first a lot of people say *I*’m the one making stuff up, but once you prove you didn’t, all of a sudden it’s ok to bring in ‘artistic license’…?

First, you get flaked for swimming against the stream… and when you slap proof after proof on the table, you still have to swim against a stream of ‘what ifs’. Do you guys even want to understand the books the way RJ wrote them…?

 

Yes, there were thousands of tales describing things in different fashions that spread far and wide.  Neither of these points are evidence to support the banner displayed in the sky during Rand's fight with Ba'alzamon, quite the contrary, in fact.  Remember the phrase that begins every book, "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass leaving memory that become legend, then fade to myth and are long forgot when that Age comes again."  The quote from the epilogue is supposed to show how much the story changed, not to support what actually happened there.  As there is no specific text that states that the banner was displayed during the battle, you can't say an excerpt from the epilogue, that begins by saying how much the story changed as proof that the banner was seen in the sky.  Finally look again at the sentence that represents the points that were the same in all of the tales told about the battle:

 

Yet one thing every tale had the same.  At their head (the band of heroes) rode a man whose face was seen in the sky above Falme, and they rode under the banner of The Dragon Reborn.

All your irrelevant sentences about how word of mouths spreads and myth aside, you answered your question yourself.

Yes, not everyone agreed on who were in the column,.. or how many people were in the column.. or who fought who…

AND YET, taking into consideration how much stories change over time….”one thing every tale had the same”

 

At [the columns] head rode a man whose face was seen in the sky above Falme, and [the column] rode under the banner of The Dragon Reborn..

 

If RJ meant to say that the banner was displayed in the sky, would he not have said, "... whose face and banner were seen in the sky above Falme?"

Are you the writer? He could have, but he didn’t. He could have stated up front Ingtar was a Darkfriend, but that would ruin a good climax for his audience. He could have called Selene Lanfear instead; nice and easy too. He could have… a zillion things. But he choose to write it like he did; To keep things interesting. To keep us off balance. To slap a few aces on the table when the going gets tough. To make us work for understanding the Wheel.

 

The banner is tied to the forces the man who fought in the sky lead, not to the man himself.  It refers to the fact that when The Heros, led by Rand, first departed to battle the Seanchan, Rand was in the lead and Perrin was proudly flying the banner above him, as Matt was blowing away on a magic horn everyone within miles could hear.  Is it any wonder everyone saw the banner, then saw Rand in the sky and connected the two?  Look here:

 

"With your permission ... Lord Rand.  Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn?  Fitting that the Horn of Valare should sing us into battle.  Bannerman, will you advance?"  Mat sounded the Horn again, long and high --- the mists rang with it --- and Perrin heeled his horse forward.  Rand drew the heron-mark blade and rode between them.

 

There it is. As the battle to throw the Seanchan back begins, Rand flanked by Perrin with the banner and Mat with The Horn of Valare lead the Heroes of the Horn into the fray.  This is what the tales refer to, the beginning of the battle.  Rand's aerial battle is a separate entity and the banner did not appear there.

I believe I proved a few times over that it was. What makes you think the beginning of the battle was not depicted in the sky? Drawings prove it. Prophecy proves it. RJ proves it, by tying the Dragon Banner to prophecy.

You just don’t want to see it. Not my problem tbh.

 

On another note (and this could have nothing to do with anything), I have been very careful to follow RJ's lead in this post.  "The Hero's of the Horn," and "The Horn of Valare," are capitalized every time they are mentioned.  The banner of the Dragon Reborn is always listed in lower case. I think that maybe, apart from its connection to Rand, the actual banner isn't all that important.

Again, you answered your own speculation. That must make the herons on his palm irrelevant too. Or the leaf I mentioned earlier..?

Come on man. Atleast Luckers came up with grammatical arguments & a social explanation of how he interpreted the words. Not an argument like; ‘the words aren’t written in caps, that could indicate that RJ naming it a ‘banner of prophecy’ that the Heroes must follow not that important’.

 

If you can point out where in the text of the actual account of the battle that the banner was displayed in the clouds above Falme, I will be the first to concede the point.

It’s not spelled out for you in the books, that’s why there are these kinds of boards about a series of books.

I think it’s a shame though, that I do your ‘dirty work’ for you and grab all the relevant quotes together, but you won’t see reason. RJ is all about puttingt two and two together. Hardly ever does he spell things out.

 

If what you are looking for are books that do spell out all the plots and such, you are reading the wrong series, I think. RJ is subtle like that. I can’t help that (heck, I love that!), nor can I help you making these books spell out what you want;

I did what I could; explain it all, quotes and everything.

Tying prophecy to banner, drawings to prophecy, banner to battle. It stops there. The rest is up to you.

 

Don't give up on this thread.  Even though I don't agree with your point, I, for one, rather enjoy reading what you have to say.

I’m replying to you, so I haven’t given up on the common sense of the collective. ;)

Thanks for the compliment, though. I try.

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

[Swigaro]

I see where you are coming from Mik.  Firstly, I didn't mean to suggest that the two quotes I provided were the only references to the banner in the chapter.  I intended to site them as two key references, which I did not specify clearly.  Mea Culpa.  Basically, as I see it at least, our difference of opinion rest on the following; you contend that the initial charge is set in the sky, I contend that the broadcast doesn't begin until Rand is thrown from his horse and directly confronts Ba'alzamon.  Sadly, IMO, neither one of us has provided proof sufficient to rule out one of these possibilities conclusively.  I will concede that it is possible that the tales and artwork that spread after the battle can suggest that the banner and heroes were projected as well.  I contend, however, that the banner, held by Perrin aloft, but on the ground, was visible to most, if not all participants in the battle, and many from the city as well and that if this is the case, while the banner is certainly in the air, it is not in the air in the same way that Rand's battle with Ba'alzamon was.  After all, isn't that the point of a banner?  To identify and distinguish one group of forces from another?  I feel it is as likely that the storytellers and artists were combining many disparate parts of the single most monumental battle in the last 3000 years to create these tales.  Heroes from ledged, a Dragon banner and an sword fight in the sky.  Since one of the key points of RJ's writing is the concept of the wheel; how events become stories, stories become legends, legends, myths etc, I can't take the stories retelling as concrete fact about what transpired.  Not to mention the fact that we are reading the "One thing was the same," sentence differently. 

 

You have been defending your point very fervently, and I respect that.  I figured, if I am going to disagree with you, I aught to check my sources (the text) before I do so.

Thanks,.. I think. ;)

 

Meant in all sincerity...

 

How you can still disagree with me, I don’t really understand; it’s clear beyond any shadow of doubt that the Dragon Banner was visible in the sky. It’s also clear that the Dragon Banner is referred to by RJ as the ‘Banner of prophecy’.

 

 

 

 

I can still disagree with you because it is not clear to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the banner was seen in the clouds.  We are not using first hand accounts here.  No where do we get a POV from one of those storytellers, whom we can identify as having been there confirming either of our sides.  There is no concrete proof for either of us, and I suspect, as Luckers also stated, I am no more likely to convince you then you are to convince me.  The facts simply aren't there, for either of us.  As far as the Dragon banner being the 'Banner of Prophecy?'  It could refer to Rand's use of the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai as well, but I have no problem with this.  Point conceded...

 

In any case, let us look forward to debating more points in other threads... 

 

Best,

 

Swigaro...

 

[triadruid]

I don't agree with one side or the other on this, but I hope Luckers/Ares will be man enough to concede the point about the banner being in the representations of the battle of Falme. It does, literally, come from the Creator's mouth.

[LordoftheMorning]

Ok. I have read and re-read the chapter as well as this post and it never says that the actual banner was diplayed in the sky in the book. Until someone can show me a sentence that shows this ,I cant fathom this discussion. Rand needed the banner because of the prophecy. The banner confirmed the fact that he was the Dragon. It didn't really make all the people believe it... Aes Sedai didn't believe he was, the Whitecloaks didn't believe it... Rand didn't believe it himself. Thats why he left the group to go alone to The Stone of Tear. To prove to himself without a shadow of a doubt that he was the Dragon Reborn.

Can the Heroes of the Horn fight without the banner. In my opinion YES. The banner was needed in that one particular situation, so that the people would see Rand proclaim himself as the Dragon. Once the Pattern recognized the true Dragon it forced all the false Dragons to be killed, jailed, caught etc.. The Horn and the Banner arent tied together. The Dragon may or may not be, but the banner no. Hopefully in AMOL Mat will blow the Horn and the banner he will be flying will be the banner of The Band.

[Mr Ares]

I don't agree with one side or the other on this, but I hope Luckers/Mr Ares will be man enough to concede the point about the banner being in the representations of the battle of Falme. It does, literally, come from the Creator's mouth.

It may be in representations, but was it in the actual battle? If not then it's a pretty meaningless concession.

 

Yet one thing every tale had the same. At their head rode a man whose face had been seen in the sky above Falme' date=' and they rode under the banner of the Dragon Reborn.[/quote']So people see a column of people. They see this column lead by the man who they would see in the sky over Falme. They see a banner with the column. But there is no mention here of banner or column being in the sky. So what does this quote prove? Nothing really.

 

Frankly, I don’t understand how you managed to get so much leeway, to be such a blunt asshole most of the time to just about everyone and their dog when you feel like it.

And I doubt you ever will Mik.

 

My quotes come from all over the books, where are yours?

Yes, they do. Even when not relevant, you can be trusted to bring in random quotes. Why? Take this for example:

Steam curled over the cups while Moiraine chose her questions carefully. To find the answers, and not reveal too much. “The Horn of Valere is not mentioned in the Prophecies, but is it linked to the Dragon anywhere?”

 

“No. Except for the fact that the Horn must be found before Tarmon Gai’don and that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to fight the Last Battle, there is no link between them at all.” The white-haired woman sipped her tea and waited.

 

“Does anything link the Dragon with Toman Head?”

 

Vandene hesitated. “Yes, and no. This is a bone between Adeleas and me.” Her voice took on a lecturing tone, and for a time she did sound like a Brown. “There is a verse in the original that translates literally as ‘Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire... ’ Well, it goes on. The point is, the word ma’vron. I say it should be translated not simply as ‘watchers,’which is a’vron. Ma’vron has more importance to it. I say it means the Watchers Over the Waves, though they call themselves Do Miere A’vron, of course, not Ma’vron. Adeleas tells me I am quibbling. But I believe it means the Dragon Reborn will appear somewhere above Toman Head, in Arad Doman, or Saldaea.

Utterly irrelevant to what was under discussion at the time.

 

Fact; Hawkwing didn't just say that for dramatic effect; he couldn't advance without that banner flying.

Wrong. That is an opinion. You need to learn to distinguish the two

insulting

But true.

 

Should a man have his own views? Discuss.

That’s a silly question. Isn’t that what gives a “forum” it’s right of existence? Different viewpoints being discussed by all. Hehe! Funny!

This forum exists, but does it have a right to? Legally, yes, but this is not a question of legality. People have a lot of opinions, many uninformed, many stupid, many outright destructive. Was Hitler entitled to his views on the Jews? If so, was he entitled to express his opinions? Was Stalin entitled to a belief that a million deaths is just statistics? Are people allowed these opinions? Should they be?

Excuse me? Did you just pull Hitler & Stalin into a discussion about 'opinion on fantasy' with me? Come on, man. Even the slight suggestion of comparing my opinion with theirs should be avoided IMO

No, Mik. I did not just pull Hitler and Stalin into a discussion on opinion on fantasy with you. You missed the point, whether accidentally or on purpose I don't know, but I am setting you straight now. My point was not about opinions on fantasy, but opinions in general. All opinions. Yours, Fryn's, mine Hitler's, Lincoln's, all opinions, anywhere, ever. Should people always be entitled to an opinion no matter what it is? That is the point. That is the question I was asking. You can think about it, debate it it, ignore it, I'm not bothered, but that is what it is, not what you claimed it was.

 

I think those should be frowned upon

That is a matter of perspective. And while much of what I said could be considered "rude" or "insulting", bear in mind that much of it was right. How many times were you unable to respond to what was said, merely to how? More than a couple. And the only factual inaccuracies were pretty small ones, the difference of a name, some mild exaggeration. Everything else is pretty much completely true. Siuan not Moiraine. Your case is ridiculously unlikely rather than impossible. Everything else seemed about right.

 

You asked if I wanted you to post? Not like the above please, because they happen to bring out the worst in me too.

You ignore cause and effect, or are confused as to which is which. Therein lies the key to avoiding posts that you don't like. From me, at least.

[Mik]

I don't agree with one side or the other on this, but I hope Luckers/Mr Ares will be man enough to concede the point about the banner being in the representations of the battle of Falme. It does, literally, come from the Creator's mouth.

It may be in representations, but was it in the actual battle? If not then it's a pretty meaningless concession.

Well triadruid, I guess Mr Ares isn’t man enough….

 

That drawing was bought by Moiraine three days after the event at Falme in a village east of Falme (somewhere on Toman Head) when Rand’s party passed through. Moiraine says flat out there are hundreds if not thousands around like it. Rand took one look at it and recognised the Dragon Banner on it. Not a banner. Not a banner that vaguely could resemble the Dragon Banner. How could the Dragon Banner be drawn in a village three days riding east of where it was used, on the third day after the events at Falme?

Because –as prophecy said- it was in the sky with Rand. It’s what proclaimed him the Dragon.

It’s the only way it makes sense, if you like to take all the facts in the books into account. ;)

 

Or do you think hundreds if not thousands of people drew a banner instantly recognisable as the Dragon Banner on word of mouth? :)

The ‘Dragon rode on the winds of time’, right there over Falme ‘bannered cross the sky’ for all to see (and draw).

 

That means there was more to that banner then just Hawkwing feeling it was appropriate. But I guess you don’t want to understand the books better, Ares. You just want to be right, regardless of the books.

 

Yet one thing every tale had the same. At their head rode a man whose face had been seen in the sky above Falme' date=' and they rode under the banner of the Dragon Reborn.[/quote']So people see a column of people. They see this column lead by the man who they would see in the sky over Falme. They see a banner with the column. But there is no mention here of banner or column being in the sky. So what does this quote prove? Nothing really.

I didn’t think I had to spell it out for you again, but the fact that every story was alike at the heart and all the stories mention a column riding under the Dragon Banner. How can the stories spreading from a village on Toman Head be the same at the heart as the stories from Falme if only some people in Falme saw that Dragon Banner like you say?

 

It’s only logic that it must be depicted in the sky, by those sentences alone.

Of course there’s also the drawing depicting the Dragon Banner.

Not to mention the prophecies….

 

Frankly, I don’t understand how you managed to get so much leeway, to be such a blunt asshole most of the time to just about everyone and their dog when you feel like it.

And I doubt you ever will Mik.

In fact, I hope I never will. It’s called decency. Something you have seemed to lost somewhere along the way to your high horse. It takes a big man to admit when he’s being a blunt asshole and wrong at the same time.

I figured pointing out where you were a bit untactful, would help. My mistake. But your loss.

 

My quotes come from all over the books, where are yours?

Yes, they do. Even when not relevant, you can be trusted to bring in random quotes. Why? Take this for example:

Steam curled over the cups while Moiraine chose her questions carefully. To find the answers, and not reveal too much. “The Horn of Valere is not mentioned in the Prophecies, but is it linked to the Dragon anywhere?”

 

“No. Except for the fact that the Horn must be found before Tarmon Gai’don and that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to fight the Last Battle, there is no link between them at all.” The white-haired woman sipped her tea and waited.

 

“Does anything link the Dragon with Toman Head?”

 

Vandene hesitated. “Yes, and no. This is a bone between Adeleas and me.” Her voice took on a lecturing tone, and for a time she did sound like a Brown. “There is a verse in the original that translates literally as ‘Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire... ’ Well, it goes on. The point is, the word ma’vron. I say it should be translated not simply as ‘watchers,’which is a’vron. Ma’vron has more importance to it. I say it means the Watchers Over the Waves, though they call themselves Do Miere A’vron, of course, not Ma’vron. Adeleas tells me I am quibbling. But I believe it means the Dragon Reborn will appear somewhere above Toman Head, in Arad Doman, or Saldaea.

Utterly irrelevant to what was under discussion at the time.

Ahaha. That’s funny. Coming from the man who said –for a fact- that the Dragon Banner wasn’t mentioned anywhere and that fryn and myself couldn’t view the ‘facts’ in a bigger picture. Hilarious even. It’s very relevant, but unfortunately for you, I’m not here to make the ‘willingly blind’ see reason….:

 

There is nothing to indicate that a banner is ever needed. So why would he have this banner in these other Ages? He might have a banner, he might not, and this would have nothing to do with the Heroes, and everything to do with the hearts and minds of real, living men and women.

 

Fact; Hawkwing didn't just say that for dramatic effect; he couldn't advance without that banner flying.

Wrong. That is an opinion. You need to learn to distinguish the two

insulting

But true.

Poor poor Mr Ares. You see, my point here was never about right or wrong. It was about ‘decency’. And unfortunately for you, you’re the one who is wrong. The irony of it all is both priceless and a real shame.

 

Should a man have his own views? Discuss.

That’s a silly question. Isn’t that what gives a “forum” it’s right of existence? Different viewpoints being discussed by all. Hehe! Funny!

This forum exists, but does it have a right to? Legally, yes, but this is not a question of legality. People have a lot of opinions, many uninformed, many stupid, many outright destructive. Was Hitler entitled to his views on the Jews? If so, was he entitled to express his opinions? Was Stalin entitled to a belief that a million deaths is just statistics? Are people allowed these opinions? Should they be?

Excuse me? Did you just pull Hitler & Stalin into a discussion about 'opinion on fantasy' with me? Come on, man. Even the slight suggestion of comparing my opinion with theirs should be avoided IMO

No, Mik. I did not just pull Hitler and Stalin into a discussion on opinion on fantasy with you. You missed the point, whether accidentally or on purpose I don't know, but I am setting you straight now. My point was not about opinions on fantasy, but opinions in general. All opinions. Yours, Fryn's, mine Hitler's, Lincoln's, all opinions, anywhere, ever. Should people always be entitled to an opinion no matter what it is? That is the point. That is the question I was asking. You can think about it, debate it it, ignore it, I'm not bothered, but that is what it is, not what you claimed it was.

That you say you cannot understand the difference in tone you’re setting by using Stalin/ Hitler instead of Lincoln is a slap in the face of intelligence.

You cannot hide behind the kind of discussion you meant it to be. We are on a forum discussing fantasy are we not? Why not use Lincoln in your example, if it wouldn’t have made a difference to the point you were making? It’s because you love being a blunt weapon when you think you have been given half the chance. You don't want to be civil. You just want to humiliate the 'opposition'.

Drawing the parallel you did was unnecessary and rude. I don’t need to think about that; you should.

 

I think those should be frowned upon

That is a matter of perspective. And while much of what I said could be considered "rude" or "insulting", bear in mind that much of it was right.

You can (think) you’re right without being insulting and rude, can you not? That was my point. It’s more fun for everyone. It doesn’t make you a bigger man when you’re rude when you shouldn’t have been. It just makes you a bigger fool.

 

You asked if I wanted you to post? Not like the above please, because they happen to bring out the worst in me too.

You ignore cause and effect, or are confused as to which is which. Therein lies the key to avoiding posts that you don't like. From me, at least.

So, you blame me for your insults. Now that childish to say the least;

“I won’t be blunt, rude & insulting when you don’t post what I think is blatantly wrong”

Pathetic, really.

 

Anyway, I hope others do see reason & can be civil about it -even when they disagree-,

Cheers,

Mik

[General Cauthon]

How could the Dragon Banner be drawn in a village three days riding east of where it was used, on the third day after the events at Falme?

Because –as prophecy said- it was in the sky with Rand. It’s what proclaimed him the Dragon.

It’s the only way it makes sense, if you like to take all the facts in the books into account.

 

Or do you think hundreds if not thousands of people drew a banner instantly recognisable as the Dragon Banner on word of mouth?

 

If you take a look on the last page of ACoS, you can see how the story of how Rand got the throne of Illian changes as it spreads. Only 2 things were repeated in every tale, 1 that the Laurel Crown was renamed the Crown of Swords, and 2 that a storm was coming.

 

One might think that a ta'veren might have something to do with how the tale was spread.....

Just as 3 ta'veren might have influenced that all the drawings manage to make Rands face recognizeable, while Ishamaels face is just flames. Noone would have sat down and started to draw what happened in the sky above Falme, so the drawings could have been made days later, adding the Dragon Banner, because they had learned that Rand was the Dragon.

Just because the Banner is present on the drawings, doesn't necessarily mean that it was displayed in the sky, though it seems likely.

However, I don't think the Banner is linked to the Horn, I think that the 3 ta'veren was the cause of Hawkwings "need" of the Banner.

[Swigaro]

 

That drawing was bought by Moiraine three days after the event at Falme in a village east of Falme (somewhere on Toman Head) when Rand’s party passed through. Moiraine says flat out there are hundreds if not thousands around like it. Rand took one look at it and recognised the Dragon Banner on it. Not a banner. Not a banner that vaguely could resemble the Dragon Banner. How could the Dragon Banner be drawn in a village three days riding east of where it was used, on the third day after the events at Falme?

Because –as prophecy said- it was in the sky with Rand. It’s what proclaimed him the Dragon.

It’s the only way it makes sense, if you like to take all the facts in the books into account.

 

Or do you think hundreds if not thousands of people drew a banner instantly recognisable as the Dragon Banner on word of mouth?

The ‘Dragon rode on the winds of time’, right there over Falme ‘bannered cross the sky’ for all to see (and draw).

 

That means there was more to that banner then just Hawkwing feeling it was appropriate. But I guess you don’t want to understand the books better, Ares. You just want to be right, regardless of the books.

 

Are you saying that because Moiraine was able to buy a representation with the banner in the background 3 days after the battle, the banner must have been visible in the sky?  It took Moiraine and company 3 days to travel to that village, yes, but a large armed party traveling with at least one criticly injured person (Rand) travel a whole lot slower than an individual, running from a huge, supernatural battle, or, say a messenger, sent specificly to spread the tale.  Do you suppose it took the Whitecloak Child Byer (pardon spelling) 3 days to reach that Village?  Not remotely.  All of this is irrelivant, in any case.  The rate at which the story, and depictions spread is beside the point.  It traveled fast, because we were told it traveled fast.  The original depictions had to have been drawn by people present at Falme.  Any of those people would have seen the Heroes of the Horn, and the banner, whether they were in the sky or not.  The rate at which the story spread proves nothing, except that the story spread quickly.  We know that the battle was visible in only a few specific places, above Falme, and above the battles where the currently active False Dragons were fighting.  It wasn't visible above this town, so, the fact that the banner appears in the drawing purchased in that town proves nothing.  If the battle were visible everywhere, Rand's job would be a whole lot easier.  It is easy to discount a story about a vision in the sky on the other side of a continent, it is harder to discount something you witness with your own eyes.  If the vision appeared over the Dome of Truth in the Fortress of Light in Amador, even some of the Children of Light might begin to question things.  I will concede that if the banner projected in the sky, it would be clear for all in the area to see, but no more so than if it were at the head of a mystical force that road out of the mists and threw back two armies without a scratch.  You seem to think that the only way the banner could be seen is if it were in the sky.  This is not true.  The banner, at the head of the army of Heroes would be no less visible to all present at the battle at Falme.