Olver

[Epic]

As much as I like Olver's character and the additional humour he brings to Mat's chapters, I think he needs to die for the Final Battle to be taken seriously.  In my opinion, most readers will take anything very,  very seriously if it involves any named character is even a little bit uncomfortable (I cringed when tey had to wear the collars, boo hoo), but when the nameless masses are butchered, who cares.  Olver is not that important a character that people would get truly pissed about if he died, like Mat, Perrin, or Lan, or anyone else like, but important enough that his death wouldn't be taken lightly.  The point that I'm trying to make is that people won't take the last battle very seriously unless some named characters die, or if Brandon Sanderson can give the nameless masses that die a name and face so they're remembered. 

 

One reason why I love George R.R. Martin is because of the realism he brings to battles and the horror of them.  Robert Jordan glossed over the details of wounds and injuries, prefering to focus more on the complexities of Weaving the power and the touchy feely stuff.  Prime example, Perrin smashes in an Aiel's face with his hammer, then gets into a lovey dovey moment with Faile, no mention of the gore that would be covering him and then its almost like he never smashed the Aiel's face in.  The fighting in WoT needs some Realism, or else battles have no impact might as be just a silly little boy pretending to slay monsters in his backyard, its no big deal for him to kill the monsters, and he's already forgotten that he's killed them by lunch.  Sorry for the rant.

 

As a side note, I don't think anyone in the WoT gets enough bran in their diet, cause it seems like no one has gone to the bathroom since day one.

[Sab]

Think someone posted once that Olver was Demandred.  ;D  ;D

[Mr Ares]

Does anyone remember when Olver shows up?

LoC 5.

 

As much as I like Olver's character and the additional humour he brings to Mat's chapters, I think he needs to die for the Final Battle to be taken seriously. The point that I'm trying to make is that people won't take the last battle very seriously unless some named characters die.

So the LB won't be taken seriously if Olver doesn't die?

 

One reason why I love George R.R. Martin is because of the realism he brings to battles and the horror of them. Robert Jordan glossed over the details of wounds and injuries, prefering to focus more on the complexities of Weaving the power and the touchy feely stuff. Prime example, Perrin smashes in an Aiel's face with his hammer, then gets into a lovey dovey moment with Faile, no mention of the gore that would be covering him and then its almost like he never smashed the Aiel's face in. The fighting in WoT needs some Realism, or else battles have no impact might as be just a silly little boy pretending to slay monsters in his backyard, its no big deal for him to kill the monsters, and he's already forgotten that he's killed them by lunch. Sorry for the rant.

It needs some Realism, with a capital R, does it? I truly despise the term "realism", because it always seems to be based around one persons narrow minded version of what constitutes reality. So RJ chose not to mention the gore that would be covering Perrin. So what? It's not really important. That scene was not about "Perrin gets covered in gore", it was about "Perrin gets his wife back", that was what was important, that was what RJ decided to focus on. It was mentioned that Perrin had some wounds after that, so that he had a bit of blood on him was implied, and it didn't really need to be stated. Perrin had more important things on his mind at that point, and it was his POV, so it is hardly unrealistic if he didn't pay any attention to it. After all, why should he? He's just been through a battle, he's probably in need of a shower, doesn't mean we should be told, in the interests of "realism" that he needs a shower. It's not important. And I think RJ is likely to have a better idea of realism when it comes to battle, considering he was a soldier, in Vietnam, and Martin wasn't. Meaning he can write from personal experience, while Martin can't. So why should we accept Martin's buckets of blood as more realistic than RJ descriptions? Also, Dumai's Wells. Realistic enough? As for Perrin not caring overmuch about just smashing some Aiel's face in, how much do you think Sandor Clegane or Ser Amory Lorch or the Mountain or Vargo Hoat or similar cared about those people they had killed? How much time do you think would be spent in their minds thinking about those kills? If we had a Gregor POV, he wouldn't give a damn about smashing some girls face in, or killing some guy, or any of his other atrocities. I suppose if we had it, he would just be "a silly little boy pretending to slay monsters in his backyard, its no big deal for him to kill the monsters, and he's already forgotten that he's killed them by lunch", and similarly "unrealistic". (It should be noted that Martin is unrealistic in that the heights, ages, etc. of his characters would be considered normal, for the most part (Gregor is still massive) in the modern world. So mediaeval centenarians, and 8 foot tall freaks are realistic, but Perrin smashing a guys head in and not caring because he has his wife back isn't?) That's how you rant.

 

As a side note, I don't think anyone in the WoT gets enough bran in their diet, cause it seems like no one has gone to the bathroom since day one.

Yes, what this series needs is a scene of Rand going to the toilet. That would really improve it.

[Sab]

Well my thing about the Perrin/Faile meeting after he smushed the Aiel, wasn't Perrin it was Failes lack of concern for someone who moments before was trying to help her and is now laying mushed at the feet of your husband. 

 

RJ does a good job of battles, giving you a good idea of the carnage without going into graphic detail.  he does the same with his sex scenes.  One of reasons RJ didn't need to go into graphic descriptions is I think he also was trying to make the series for young and old readers.  I started and have stopped reading Terry Goodkind's Sword of truth series and felt he put in way too much uneeded detail especially with regards to sex.

[Mr Ares]

Well my thing about the Perrin/Faile meeting after he smushed the Aiel, wasn't Perrin it was Failes lack of concern for someone who moments before was trying to help her and is now laying mushed at the feet of your husband.

Perrin smells sadness and guilt on her, and decides not to pry. Really, why would Faile bring it up? It would only hurt Perrin - "He was actually helping me escape and you killed him". Far more reasonable to just keep quiet about it, not hurt him unnecessarily.

[Majsju]

Well my thing about the Perrin/Faile meeting after he smushed the Aiel, wasn't Perrin it was Failes lack of concern for someone who moments before was trying to help her and is now laying mushed at the feet of your husband. 

 

 

Why would Faile show any concern about a guy who kidnapped her, and came close to raping her?

[Thor]

i don't give a damn if olver dies or not.  but i just want to point out when people on tremalking committed mass suicide, people were still asking around what did RJ mean by the 'tragedy' from the cleansing.  so yeah, most people really don't care about nameless deaths.

[Sab]

Well my thing about the Perrin/Faile meeting after he smushed the Aiel, wasn't Perrin it was Failes lack of concern for someone who moments before was trying to help her and is now laying mushed at the feet of your husband. 

 

 

Why would Faile show any concern about a guy who kidnapped her, and came close to raping her?

 

Ummmm don't remembe rthat, remember him flirting wit hher and helping her escape.

[Epic]

Sorry if I've offended anyone by saying that Olver needs to die.  What I should have said was that some secondary characters need to die, but this is a discussion thread about Olver so I used his name.  I just feel that if no one dies, then the Last Battle will kinda be a bust.  Its supposed to an Armeggedan or Ragnarok, and if no one dies then it isn't really. 

 

As to the comments on Perrin smashing in the Aiel's face, it was just an example that came to me.  I could have named any other number of examples.  The point I was trying to make was that one of the ways that Jordan could have made us feel a little bit more empathy toward the dead chars. is if he would remind us that they were dead. 

 

As to the buckets of blood comment, ease up.  Battle and war is horrible, and if all your battle scenes have no blood, then its not really horrible, its just a PG-13 action movie.

 

And don't compare Perrin Aybara to men like Amory Lorch or Gregor Clegane, come on.  They're rapists and murderers.  One of them killed an infant by bashing its head against a wall and then raped the baby's mother while he was still covered in bits of blood, bone and brain; the most evil thing Perrin's ever done is make an uneasy alliance with Masema.

 

Finally, I don't want to derail this thread again, so I'll end it by asking for your thoughts on Olver: his purpose in the book, how he's influenced Mat and other characters, and his future.

[agaga]

Does anyone remember when Olver shows up?

LoC 5.

 

Thanks Ares :)

 

 

[Alderthal]

I believe Olver's purpose is to teach Mat some responsibility, mature him up a bit. Perrin was the first to get a wife, Mat was the first to get a kid, and of course, Rand is the first to get mad :P...

 

As for dying in the end, I guess RJ could be really sneaky and turn book 12 into a death fest, but I don't think so. While I might appreciate the 'wholesomeness' of the tale if TG was a blood soaked battle field, I'd still be very upset to lose all those characters I've read about throughout 11 books.

 

Whether you like RJ or not, comparing him to GRRM's work isn't fair for either author. Sure, both of them have a massive, detailed world to work within, but both of them have very different outlooks about their works. It's for this reason that some find Wheel of Time boring, while others find ASoI&F to be a disturbing read.

 

And ugh, someone mentioned Terry Goodkind's SoT series. After reading through it all, I figured Goodkind wrote the story for sociology/political science majors. Richard TALKS too much.

[Charlz Fel]

Well my thing about the Perrin/Faile meeting after he smushed the Aiel, wasn't Perrin it was Failes lack of concern for someone who moments before was trying to help her and is now laying mushed at the feet of your husband. 

 

 

Why would Faile show any concern about a guy who kidnapped her, and came close to raping her?

 

He tried to persuade her to play "kissing games," which Faile doubted would end up with just kissing.  I think he was trying to seduce her, but certainly not rape her.  He saved her from being assaulted by Shaido on more than one occasion.  He saved her life the night she was captured by putting a coat over her (although, to be fair, that particular occasion probably does not count for much, given that he was the one who had just captured her).  Faile believes that he may have saved her life again by putting a brazier under her when she is tied up naked in the cold for punishment.  Most importantly, just before the scene at hand, Roland had saved her and her companions' lives at great risk to his own.

 

As to the buckets of blood comment, ease up.  Battle and war is horrible, and if all your battle scenes have no blood, then its not really horrible, its just a PG-13 action movie.

 

I think that there is plenty of gore between the lines.  It's just that Jordan prefers not to describe this directly; rather, he shows the effects on the characters.  How many PG-13 action movies have main characters vomit after battles?

[Mr Ares]

Sorry if I've offended anyone by saying that Olver needs to die. What I should have said was that some secondary characters need to die, but this is a discussion thread about Olver so I used his name.

No offence tken. Just thought it was an odd way of saying it - Olver needs to die, as opposed to a minor character like Olver.

I just feel that if no one dies, then the Last Battle will kinda be a bust.

I agree, there needs to be some death, but I don't doubt there will be. RJ has been willing to kill off minor characters in far less important battles than this one.

 

As to the comments on Perrin smashing in the Aiel's face, it was just an example that came to me. I could have named any other number of examples.

Such as?

The point I was trying to make was that one of the ways that Jordan could have made us feel a little bit more empathy toward the dead chars. is if he would remind us that they were dead.

Examples? I've already provided a good reason for Rolan to not come up.

 

As to the buckets of blood comment, ease up. Battle and war is horrible, and if all your battle scenes have no blood, then its not really horrible, its just a PG-13 action movie.

Battle and war are horrible you say? Really? Also, this is a little different from a PG-13 action movie. For one thing, we don't need to be told in graphic detail, we can be left imagine it. There are references to blood and gore - it is mentioned that Perrin is wounded in that example. So do we really need to be told he was soaked in blood? No. A movie doesn't have the same option. If we see Perrin, then we see him covered in gore or we don't.

 

And don't compare Perrin Aybara to men like Amory Lorch or Gregor Clegane, come on. They're rapists and murderers. One of them killed an infant by bashing its head against a wall and then raped the baby's mother while he was still covered in bits of blood, bone and brain; the most evil thing Perrin's ever done is make an uneasy alliance with Masema.

And tortured someone, made an alliance with the Seanchan, allowed them to make a lot of Shaido into slaves, including some damane. The difference is that Perrin has a conscience. We've seen that. We've seen him bothered by things like the torture. But he really has no reason to waste a thought on Rolan. The guy was the enemy. Why waste tears on them? Perrin had his wife back, that was what was important to him.

 

I believe Olver's purpose is to teach Mat some responsibility, mature him up a bit.

That, and snakes and foxes.

Perrin was the first to get a wife, Mat was the first to get a kid, and of course, Rand is the first to get mad :P...

Nothing teaches responsibility like a bit of insanity.

 

As for dying in the end, I guess RJ could be really sneaky and turn book 12 into a death fest, but I don't think so. While I might appreciate the 'wholesomeness' of the tale if TG was a blood soaked battle field, I'd still be very upset to lose all those characters I've read about throughout 11 books.

I think we can probably consider it set in stone some people will die. That said, he's not going to kill everyone, there'll probably be a few favourites coming through.

 

Whether you like RJ or not, comparing him to GRRM's work isn't fair for either author. Sure, both of them have a massive, detailed world to work within, but both of them have very different outlooks about their works. It's for this reason that some find Wheel of Time boring, while others find ASoI&F to be a disturbing read.

I don't really agree on the massive detailed world front. I think GRRM's worldbuilding is adequate, but not really a strength of his. Copy and paste some mediaeval stuff, some steppe nomad cliches, some nudge nudge wink wink English history (it's not the Anarchy, dammit, it's the Dance of Dragons!). Really, it's the characters who make the world seem alive, rather than the world seeming alive in its own right. He's still a bloody good writer, I just think that RJ's world is far better, that it seems far more fleshed out. But RJ is one of the greatest in this respect. Also, ASoIaF isn't that disturbing.

[Epic]

Listen this is a discussion thread about Olver, and once more I'm sorry for having derailed the discussion with my comments about the styles of writing of Martin and Jordan.  If you want to continue arguing with me about them Mr. Ares then open up a new discussion thread and I'll answer all your questions and give more support of my argument. 

 

Back to Olver: discuss his past current and future roles in the WoT, anything else you think might be important.

[agaga]

Listen this is a discussion thread about Olver, and once more I'm sorry for having derailed the discussion with my comments about the styles of writing of Martin and Jordan.  If you want to continue arguing with me about them Mr. Ares then open up a new discussion thread and I'll answer all your questions and give more support of my argument. 

 

Back to Olver: discuss his past current and future roles in the WoT, anything else you think might be important.

 

I think Olver is a very important character like others said he helped with the development of Mat. Also R.J. said he had an important part to play yet I think in Question of the week I can't remember exactly. I think Olvers really really cool he's one of my favorite characters.

[Gentled Ben]

I think the Olver conversation kinda ran its brief course, and the discussion that it has turned into is a more engaging one to read. *shrugs*

[ROB_88]

that is the nature of any forum, no matter how hard you try it will always derail about something else

[Mr Ares]

I think the Olver conversation kinda ran its brief course, and the discussion that it has turned into is a more engaging one to read. *shrugs*

I agree. Just let the discussion go where it will.

[Gentled Ben]

I wouldn't argue that Martin's series is more graphic, but I didn't feel disturbed reading it. I agree with a previous poster that most of the sex scenes are crude, though. The only one I can think of off the top of my head that was not, was one between Ned and Catelyn, and even in that one, she reflects that it had been a little rough. My main complaint with the graphic nature of his series (and I think this was mentioned earlier, too) is that it discourages a younger audience who might otherwise really enjoy the tale. Everyone's morality differs, so I am sure there are those who would offer the series to a child, but I would not suggest it as reading material to anyone too young to drive, and I do not think it was necessary to the story for him to make it that way. I hope it isn't a trend that continues, as I can see how the next great author might wish to take it further, and the next one, further than that, and before long, high fantasy becomes a shocking and obscene genre fit only for adults who don't mind that sort of thing, when as it stands now, it is available to a very wide audience.

 

Anyway, in Jordan's tale, our very first scene is a crime scene, one in which a man murdered his entire family. That he didn't rape the corpse of his wife or something in order to satisfy the numbed emotions of an audience jaded with cinematic and literary shock devices, does not make the series tame or boring, and trolloc cookpots filled with human remains are horrifying beyond anything I can think of in LotR. That it does not horrify most readers speaks more to the tolerance readers have for gore, than it does to the level of gore in the story. I mean, if you watch hardcore pornography all the time, you would probably not find old Marilyn Monroe films the least bit erotic, because you will have desensitized yourself to subtler forms of arousal. I believe it is the same with literature. I like both Martin and Jordan's stories, but Jordan's is the one that really came alive for me.  :)

[Mr Ares]

My main complaint with the graphic nature of his series (and I think this was mentioned earlier, too) is that it discourages a younger audience who might otherwise really enjoy the tale. Everyone's morality differs, so I am sure there are those who would offer the series to a child, but I would not suggest it as reading material to anyone too young to drive, and I do not think it was necessary to the story for him to make it that way. I hope it isn't a trend that continues, as I can see how the next great author might wish to take it further, and the next one, further than that, and before long, high fantasy becomes a shocking and obscene genre fit only for adults who don't mind that sort of thing, when as it stands now, it is available to a very wide audience.

I think that provided that publishers and writers remember that there is a market for both, then both will continue to be produced, which is really the bst of both worlds - those who want graphic sex scenes and lots of gore can be satisfied with writers like Richard Morgan, and those who want something less explicit can find writers more to their taste, such as Brandon Sanderson (basing that just on the first Mistborn - I don't know if he suddenly gets 18 rated in his other works).

[Epic]

I feel that the WoT is great as it is right now: good story lines, great characters, and very good attention to the detail of the world of WoT.  My only problem with it is that I find it very hard to feel empathy for all of the nameless characters that die.  I just feel that one of the ways that this could be done is if the characters might look over the battlefield when its all over and done.  Just to help you remember that the soldiers' did die, especially since it will be the Last Battle and to me, I just don't think that Last Battle will be able to achieve its fullest impact on the reader if its just a cake-walk for the forces of the Light and no one dies, or if people do die and then no one remembers.