Olver

[Ashaman Kovan]

I don't know it this particular part in the book has been quoted before, and I think it's common knowledge that Olver can't be Gaidal Cain. But i'm pretty sure i've heard that origianly RJ planned to write some books that took place after TG and everything. So just from this one passage in Winters Heart, Chaper 15: In need of a Bellfounder, from Mats point of veiw makes me think that Olver isn't GC reborn but he probably is either another hero we don't know about reborn or he was supposed to be fairly important in the post TG books. Anyone have any thoughts on this at all?

 

 

 

"Thom and Beslan were enough to restore Olver's grin. Pulling his hand free, he ran ahead to them

laughing. Thom was teaching him how to juggle and play the harp and the flute, and Beslan was teaching

him how to use a sword. His other "uncles" gave him other lessons, in a remarkably varied set of skills. Mat

intended to start teaching him to use a quarterstaff, and the Two Rivers bow, once he had his strength

back. What the boy was learning from Chel Vanin, or the Redarms, Mat did not want to know."

 

 

[Majsju]

Olver appeared in the books long before RJ came up with the idea to write a book about Mat and Tuon ten years after TG, so it is extremely unllikely that RJ had any plans for Olver after the last page of AMOL. Other than setting him up as a kid with quite an exciting future ahead of him, and as such being one of many things that would serve to keep the world alive in our minds.

[Ashaman Kovan]

You could be right. I'm not too sure though. But I don't really have any arguments for my case. It was just idle speculation really with a little tiny bit of credibility lol.

[sleddog116]

Is it possible, though, that Olver might be killed at TG?  Not a pleasant thought, but we keep talking about how Faile's death might improve Perrin's character (though I don't agree).  Might Olver's death do the same for Mat?

[Majsju]

There is no way RJ would kill off a child that we not only know, but also like as a character. Had it been Martin, I would have been quite sure that Olver was soon to be toast, but RJ? Nu-uh.

 

And of course, events during TG is a wee bit late for any "improvements" of the characters.

[Spirit1025]

I can think of no good reason for Olver to die. That's why I stopped reading Martin's books, I couldn't take the needless killing of major characters, especially the children. How would Olver's death improve Mat? (for that matter, I don't think Faile's death would improve Perrin's life-he'd have nothing to live for and he'd give up and die.)

[sleddog116]

There is no way RJ would kill off a child that we not only know, but also like as a character. Had it been Martin, I would have been quite sure that Olver was soon to be toast, but RJ? Nu-uh.

 

And of course, events during TG is a wee bit late for any "improvements" of the characters.

 

I'm assuming you mean George R R Martin (Song of Ice and Fire)?  Yeah - I stopped reading those because of that.  I was just giving a thought there.  I hope I'm wrong - I just know the stuff we've seen about Faile.  I was sort of going by that, I guess, but it's almost like apples to oranges.

[Kaznen]

If Olver was in SoIaF I would be surprised he survived this long.

 

But I think in 10 years, when he is about the age Mat is now, he will be Mat's go to guy.

[MsDanya]

I doubt Olver will die, but he still might, to make the readers see the seriousness of the war..

 

And I like that about Martin actually, makes it more realistic and warlike. People die in wars, even people who are famous and heroes.

[sleddog116]

But, this is a literary project, and sometimes things are done for effect that the writer feels are necessary.

 

That was my point.  If you want to make beautiful music, you sometimes have to use minor keys.

[motblades]

But, this is a literary project, and sometimes things are done for effect that the writer feels are necessary.

 

That was my point.  If you want to make beautiful music, you sometimes have to use minor keys.

 

sleddog116, that was a beautiful way of saying that.  Wow!

[RAND AL THOR]

I can think of no good reason for Olver to die. That's why I stopped reading Martin's books, I couldn't take the needless killing of major characters, especially the children. How would Olver's death improve Mat? (for that matter, I don't think Faile's death would improve Perrin's life-he'd have nothing to live for and he'd give up and die.)

 

The deaths of characters in ASoFaI are not 'needless.' They are crucial for the continuation of the story. ASoFaI is ASoFaI because of that. If even ONE of those main deaths had not occured, the story would be significantly different. GRRM knows what he's doing. He puts in characters for a specific purpose and once that purpose is completed, the characters are no longer necessary.

 

Furthermore, may I state how REALISTIC ASoFaI is due to the killings. The same cannot be said of the WoT. GRRM just didn't plan to use his characters all the way to end of the series. The changing cast is one of the things that kept me glued to the books.

[sleddog116]

The changing cast is one of the things that kept me glued to the books.

 

I sort of agree with this, but the problem with ASoIaF is that there is a lot of tasteless stuff that was obviously put into the books for no other reason than to make it "gritty".  I suppose readers are divided on this issue, but a lot (if not most) of your fans of WoT and LotR want high fantasy with very definite "good vs. evil" themes; they don't want a "fantasy" that has been dragged into reality.  They see enough of that every day.  Fantasy, for me, has always been about escaping.  While WoT's characters encounter major problems, it is still a mostly black-and-white (and by that I mean right-and-wrong, not bland and uninteresting) world. Sure, their world isn't perfect.  I cringed when I read about Elayne and Egwene being collared by the sul'dam, but right always wins; that's part of the genre.

 

Martin turned his world grey - we have that in real life, so it wasn't that refreshing escape I've come to expect from fantasy.  Besides, a lot of ASoIaF wasn't much better than smut - he could have at least tried to make his love scenes more tasteful than they were.

 

Will anyone back me on this, or am I just raving?

[RAND AL THOR]

 

Martin turned his world grey - we have that in real life, so it wasn't that refreshing escape I've come to expect from fantasy.

 

This is exactly what thrilled me. I've read SO many books where the characters get into impossible situations and then the Joker pops up behind the Dark Lord and gives him a wedgie to let the characters and so on on on.....

 

The first major death in ASoFaI absolutely shocked me. I won't post more on that (spoilers lol) but I was tempted to STOP reading. I wasn't used to it.

 

But then the books turned into a deadly play of politics. It had fantasy elements (mythical beasts/magic) but is so different from everything else. I hated most of the character deaths, but I didn't stop reading. That is GRRM's talent and I applaud him for that. As a writer, I know how difficult it is to kill a character. In my own work, I introduced a character with the objective of killing her after some time. But now I'm too attached to her to finish her off.  ;D

[sleddog116]

I've read all 4 of the SoIaF books that are out so far, but I'll admit that I'm still undecided as to whether or not I'm going to read A Dance of Dragons when it comes out.

 

Rand, you've kind of confused me.  You said your were "thrilled" by Martin's grey world, yet in that "LotR Parallel" topic, you said something completely opposite.  I mean, not exactly, but basically to the same effect.  You said, "The fact is, readers wouldn't be as interested in a selfish character that tries greedily welcomes his fate and misuses it. It happens in life, but do we want to read millions of words about a character like that?"

 

Isn't that what Martin's books are all about?  I'm not trying to shoot you down or anything (trying to match wits with the Dragon Reborn is something I generally try to avoid), but you just have me a little confused.  Could you clarify, please?  (I know we're getting just a little off-topic.  Maybe we should start a new thread for this.)

[RAND AL THOR]

 

Rand, you've kind of confused me.  You said your were "thrilled" by Martin's grey world, yet in that "LotR Parallel" topic, you said something completely opposite.  I mean, not exactly, but basically to the same effect.  You said, "The fact is, readers wouldn't be as interested in a selfish character that tries greedily welcomes his fate and misuses it. It happens in life, but do we want to read millions of words about a character like that?"

 

Isn't that what Martin's books are all about?  I'm not trying to shoot you down or anything (trying to match wits with the Dragon Reborn is something I generally try to avoid), but you just have me a little confused.  Could you clarify, please?  (I know we're getting just a little off-topic.  Maybe we should start a new thread for this.)

 

I'll clarify.  ;D

 

I don't like the Lannisters (Tyrion exception to some degree)

I don't like Littlefinger.

I like Ned, Daenerys, Rob, Bran, Jon etc...........

 

So, I'm rooting for the unselfish guys who want to do some good.

But I also want something terrible to happen to the Lannisters, Littlefinger etc...

 

See where I'm going? If the books had been written purely from Lannister POVs with the Starks all dying at their hands- that I would not like to read.

We DO have the noble and nice characters in ASoFaI. There are just more-than-usual bad characters, and more importantly, the good and noble characters do not always win.

 

Hope it's clear. If not I'll clear some more.

[sleddog116]

Now it makes sense.  I'm still not sure I agree, but it makes sense.  I think you and I both agree, however, that Olver's death wouldn't necessarily be "needless".  I think as much good could come from his death as from Faile's (not that I'm hoping for either); we've begun to see some change in Matrim, anyway, but Olver's death might put that fire in him which would bring unexpected results - or did Olver perhaps have a near-death experience and was saved by Aes Sedai, reversing some of Mat's hatred and distrust of Aes Sedai?

 

(I was also rooting for the Starks for the most part.)

[benr]

Back to Olver:  I can totally see him doing a heroic deed (as suggested above) and being welcomed to the Heroes of the Horn in the end.

[RAND AL THOR]

IMO, Olver was RJ's tool for introducing the Snakes and Foxes game to Mat. I believe that that is his sole purpose in the WoT.

 

If he dies (and I don't think he will) I don't think his death would have been planned with intentionally creating a change in any character. Perhaps it would, but I do not expect it to occur (ie. the death).

[Majsju]

Bit of a stretch to say that introducing the S&F game was his sole prupose, I think.

Look at how Mat has grown as a character after taking in Olver. A lot of Mats newfound maturity comes from having Olver around. I mean, imagine Mat traveling with a bunch of soldier whose main interests are drinking and gambling without Olver around... ;D

[RAND AL THOR]

Bit of a stretch to say that introducing the S&F game was his sole prupose, I think.

Look at how Mat has grown as a character after taking in Olver. A lot of Mats newfound maturity comes from having Olver around. I mean, imagine Mat traveling with a bunch of soldier whose main interests are drinking and gambling without Olver around... ;D

 

That was a stretch, yes.

Let's rather say 'primary purpose.' The S&F game is very important in the rescue of Moiraine. And also remember that he is the one who provided Mat with the information on how to get into the Tower of Ghenjei. So while RJ likely put him in for those reasons, there were various other effects on characters such as Mat etc.... Another effect was Elayne leaving Mat behind while escaping from Ebou Dar. I believe it was because of Olver.

[Mr Ares]

I couldn't take the needless killing of major characters, especially the children.

Which major characters are needlessly killed? Which major child characters are needlessly killed? In fact, which major child characters are killed? Bran, Sansa and Arya are all still alive. They are the major child characters.

 

If Olver was in SoIaF I would be surprised he survived this long.

it been Martin' date=' I would have been quite sure that Olver was soon to be toast[/quote']Why? Martin's exaggerated reputation for mass-murdering his characters aside.

 

The deaths of characters in ASoFaI are not 'needless.' They are crucial for the continuation of the story. ASoFaI is ASoFaI because of that. If even ONE of those main deaths had not occured, the story would be significantly different. GRRM knows what he's doing. He puts in characters for a specific purpose and once that purpose is completed, the characters are no longer necessary.

This, I agree with.

 

Furthermore, may I state how REALISTIC ASoFaI is due to the killings.

There's more to realism than death.

 

GRRM just didn't plan to use his characters all the way to end of the series.

Seems like in a lot of cases, he did. We still have six of the eight POVs from AGoT. Only one of the twelve added since then has died. That's a pretty low attrition rate.

 

Martin turned his world grey - we have that in real life, so it wasn't that refreshing escape I've come to expect from fantasy.

There are shades of grey in WoT as well. Unless you're saying there's nothing wrong with good guys doing things like torturing people, killing people, etc. And surely the Whitecloaks are a shade of grey - they walk in the Light, but they're hardly nice guys. And can you really call a guy like Bornhald evil? So what is the difference between AsoIaF and WoT?

 

Will anyone back me on this, or am I just raving?

No and yes, respectively.

[agaga]

Does anyone remember when Olver shows up? I can't remember when sometime in LOC I think can anyone help?

[metria31183]

I believe Olver first shows up in LoC. I can't find the chapter.  He was about to get the snot beat out of him for sitting on someones horse.  Mat found him and pulled him out of the fire.  He sent him with Daerid to the inn they were staying at in Maerone.  They left him there when the Band rode south, but Olver followed them.  He stuck with Mat ever since.

[agaga]

I believe Olver first shows up in LoC. I can't find the chapter.  He was about to get the snot beat out of him for sitting on someones horse.  Mat found him and pulled him out of the fire.  He sent him with Daerid to the inn they were staying at in Maerone.  They left him there when the Band rode south, but Olver followed them.  He stuck with Mat ever since.

 

I thought it was something like that okay at least I have a general idea of where to look now

 

thanks!