Mesaana's Identity

[lou]

i dont buy the else theory for lanfear. egwene is the only one to encounter "else", and being fairly untrained in the ability to sense the power in others, she may have mistaken the ability in else. i dont believe she comments either way on that.

why couldnt it be nesune? because she was being held captive by the wise ones? the same reason it could be tsutama, or anyone else really, the ability to travel at will.

danelle is really only the most obvious choice due to appearance,anyone who is messaana would be able to invert weaves to conceal her identity and her level of strngth in the power, eavesdrop or compell anyone to give her info.

i just dont think there is enough info to nail it down. it is still only guesswork no matter how certain anyone is.

[Tel Janin]

The cook, Laras, Mistress of the Kitchens.  That's who she is!

 

Of course, I have no proof; I just think it would be funny.  ;D

[Mr Ares]

Surely any theory that says that Messy is Danelle relies onsome as yet unknown weave for partially masking your strength?

The fact that Moghedien did just that when posing as... as... er... whats'er name Maighdin or summat, before being caught by Nynaeve, and afterwards while disguised as her posing as a maid did she not mask the power completely?

Completely being the operative word. No-one disputes that someone can his all their ability, what Tyrell said was that we don't know it can be partially done.

[Nightstrike]

There was that report from the booksigning, someone reported that RJ said it was possible to partially mask the ability. Not that we know if Mesaana knows how to do it, but it seems likely that she might (since she's in the tower, wearing silks).

 

RJ said we could figure out who she was before book 10 (CoT), the year 2001.

 

Mesaana was established in the tower at book 6. Earliest that I know of, does anyone else have any earlier mention?

 

Elaida was raised in book 4.

 

We don't know if Mesaana was the same infiltrator the whole time, even though it seems likely. When Elaida was raised, she called Tsutama, Lirene & Toveine back from exile. Lirene is only about 5 feet tall (which rules her out) & Toveine is part of hunt for BA in the Tower (also ruled out). Alviarin was asked to find out why Ajah heads were meeting before Tsutama was raised Highest of the Red. After Tsutama was raised and Alviarin was sacked from being keeper, Mesaana was far from being worried or concerned. And Mesaana seems to know Elaida so well that it seems likely that she's had some contact with her.

 

Does anyone know if RJ said we should be able to figure out Mesaana's identity before 2001? Because that's the only time I've found any report of him saying that.

 

 

 

[General Cauthon]

Lirene is only about 5 feet tall (which rules her out) & Toveine is part of hunt for BA in the Tower (also ruled out).

 

Toveine led the Aes Sedai sent to destroy the Black Tower, and was bonded by Logain. It's Pevara that's part of the group looking for the BA

[Sabio]

Danelle has met with Elaida, plus I am sure Mesaana probably has ways to spy maybe even in the world of dreams.  Plus Elaida usually isn't exactly a hard person to figure out what she will do.

 

Alviarin expressed surprise at things Mesaana knew when she made her reports and things she didn't and if I remember right thought to herself that Mesanna clearly was spying on the meetings. 

 

Danelle is the clear choice, especially considering she was in charge of the workers who stormed the tower, thus ensuring the split in the tower.

[Nightstrike]

Toveine led the Aes Sedai sent to destroy the Black Tower, and was bonded by Logain. It's Pevara that's part of the group looking for the BA

Sorry. My mistake. Well, Toveine is ruled out for other reasons.

 

Danelle is the clear choice, especially considering she was in charge of the workers who stormed the tower, thus ensuring the split in the tower.

Yeah, that makes her a suspect. If she isn't Mesaana, then surely she must be Black Ajah.

 

But does anyone have any earlier mention of readers figuring out Mesaana than 2001? Or any earlier mention of Mesaana established in the Tower? Tsutama seems to have some secrets of her own (those blueberries) and Mesaana wasn't worried about Alviarin being sacked. I think there might be more to Tsutama than we know so far.

 

[Graendals favourite]

RJ said we could figure out who she was before book 10 (CoT), the year 2001.

Was it so or did he say we could guess who the killer was before CoT? (Shevan has her dress, plus was one who gain station through the upheaval of disposing Siuan.) Because, now I may be wrong, I do not remember the interviews well enough, but I think RJ at least insinuated that in CoT we received the information to do the figuring out. Or was it a different book?

 

I like Shevan for Mesaana even more, because one thing is that the Chosen, who were caught at Shayol Ghul, all of them were very adept at personal survival and rising to powerful positions, at least in the Shadowy way. It is most likely that Mesaana is rising toward the top of the crumbling tower she has made of the White Tower. Were she Danelle, she would only have influence through other Darkfriends, which reeks of sharing power which is not a Dark characteristic; were she a Sitter, she could also control events herself to a degree. Danelle, being who she is, could have carried out her part of the coup on orders, either from her Brown Ajah superiors or is she is Black Ajah by Black Ajah orders, and it all still fits if she believed Siuan had to be deposed. The dissension in the Tower emphasises the influence of the Sitters, since they are pretty much the only ones who meet with sisters of different Ajahs. So it fits that Elaida is walled off from everyone, so it fits that Mesaana wants to know why the Ajah heads are meeting. Furthermore, Alviarin is the one in control of the Black Ajah, it stands to reason Mesaana wants to diminish her influence as a potential rival.

 

Furthermore, if this were so, there would be a nice joke. Alviarin in that chapter A Mark thought, Talene did look at Yukiri and Doesine, so she must be a good place to start finding those who threaten the Black Ajah. Perhaps, since Shevan did look at Alviarin upon her appearance, she is a good place to start looking for Mesaana.

 

Alviarin expressed surprise at things Mesaana knew when she made her reports and things she didn't and if I remember right thought to herself that Mesanna clearly was spying on the meetings.

The first part is what Demandred thought of the Dark One in the beginning of LoC. Alviarin's opinion was that Mesaana knew everything. The second part, that she though Mesaana was spying on the meetings, is true, though the logic escaped her. She could not fathom that Mesaana listened to a meeting and asked about the same meeting in order to control Alviarin, Mesaana is well aware that Alviarin will not be the most trustworthy person to work with, especially if she becomes unmasked by Alviarin.

[Nightstrike]

RJ said we could figure out who she was before book 10 (CoT), the year 2001.

Was it so or did he say we could guess who the killer was before CoT? (Shevan has her dress, plus was one who gain station through the upheaval of disposing Siuan.) Because, now I may be wrong, I do not remember the interviews well enough, but I think RJ at least insinuated that in CoT we received the information to do the figuring out. Or was it a different book?

 

 

I've copied and pasted this from wotmania (Marcon interview, the year 2001):

Question (Asked by Ruriha Sedai)

"We know who almost all the Forsaken are, except maybe Mesaana and Demandred. Should we be able to work out who they are?"

Answer

"Ummm.. Yea."

Sorilea's Comments

Eeks... I hate those answers. Ok everyone, you heard him - time to get those books cracked open again, and let's figure out who they are!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

*groans* Now I will need to be finding more interviews...  ;) Well, if its a "uhm, yea," I'll go for Shevan and Roedran at this point myself, but there's much to read.

 

Another problem with Danelle, is that when in aCoS Mesaana first came to see Alviarin and knew everything already, Danelle had met Alviarin on the way back from the interview. Of course Danelle could have turned and followed Alviarin then easily enough if she were Mesaana, but how could she had listened to the interview, and if she had, why would she go toward Elaida when she was going to visit Alviarin and her destination would have been Alviarin's rooms.

[metallicafan08]

I've just had a thought regarding the whole issue with Mesaana knowing everything that happened in the meetings between Alviarin and Elaida. Is it not possible that Mesaana could have appeared to Alviarin straight after such a meeting when she was alone in her rooms then compelled her to tell every detail of what happened in the meeting. After which she could tell Alviarin to forget she ever appeared to her just as Moggy did to Elayne and Nyneave in Tanchico. Then Mesaana could appear to Alviarin again without using compulsion and ask her what happened in the meetings and she would already know all the details so to Alviarin it would appear she knew everything, which is a very powerful tool in stopping Alvairin from ever lying to her. So from Alviarin's POV she has no recollection of Mesaana appearing.

 

Now i know this is slightly different to how things happened with Moggy and the girls, they remembered a woman coming to see them staying for tea then leaving. But that is because they only remembered what Moggy wanted them too, so if Mesaana had told Alviarin she wished her to remember nothing of their meeting then like i said from Alviarin's POV there would be nothing in the chapter to indicate it had happened unless it had been from Mesaana's POV.

 

Now i'm also sure there will be arguments saying we read what happened through Elayne's POV regarding what Moggy asked of the girls and what they told her, Elayne thinks of nothing more than wanting to please Moggy. This is fair enough but this is the first time we read through someone's POV while they were being compelled so it needed to be explained and we needed to see how Moggy got her info on what the girls were up to. It wouldn't have made any sense if the chapter had jus said some unknown woman appeared claiming to know the girls then stayed for a cuppa, realised they weren't the girls she thought they were and left!!

 

It's just something to think on and i'd like your views guys

[Majsju]

 

 

Another problem with Danelle, is that when in aCoS Mesaana first came to see Alviarin and knew everything already, Danelle had met Alviarin on the way back from the interview. Of course Danelle could have turned and followed Alviarin then easily enough if she were Mesaana, but how could she had listened to the interview, and if she had, why would she go toward Elaida when she was going to visit Alviarin and her destination would have been Alviarin's rooms.

 

I do not see this as a problem at all. It is quite possible that there are limits to from how far you can use the OP to eavesdrop on people, especially inside a building with quite a number of walls etc getting in the way. And thus, Mesaana would want to be fairly close to Elaidas quarters. Alviarin simply bumped into her before she had had the opportunity to get away from there.

[Graendals favourite]

Perhaps. Though, while Elaida already had taken up residence at the top of the Tower, Alviarin passed Danelle only after she had come lower, where 'sisters began to appear'. Also, the Danelle was clearly not walking toward Alviarin's room, since that is where Alviarin was headed-- if she had, there would have been no need to cross Alviarin's path, and Alviarin surely took the most direct route to get there.

 

Also, from Alviarin's pov, it is evident that Mesaana was already waiting for Alviarin to arrive--unless she was following Alviarin at Alviarin's heels, which is something I do not see going unnoticed, coming in and closing the door and then someone else coming in after you and all. Clearly she had hurried to Alviarin's rooms as soon as the interview with Elaida was over, so as to impress Alviarin with her omnipotency, if she did not listen to the interview there. Had she been crossing Alviarin's path lower in the Tower when Alviarin had already descended, I do not know how this should be plausible. Had she started toward Alviarin's rooms normally, she would not have crossed her path but been there before Alviarin as she intended, and had she Travelled to the rooms, which I am not certain she would risk considering the possibility of servants, she could have done that from higher up in the Tower where there are less people present or wherever she was listening at.

 

Hmm, though at this interview, Mesaana did not appear to listen. She did not know about Elaida's Foretelling before Alviarin told her. Nevertheless, the problem of reaching Alviarin's rooms ahead of her remains.

 

However, in PoD ch 25 Mesaana knew of Alviarin's visit to Elaida, and knew she had had Elaida sign the proclamation on Rand, and had her beaten too. Either Mesaana directly sent Alviarin there then, which doesn't seem likely since she did not know Alviarin had already had the proclamation sent out to the harbours before the signing, or she knew to listen when Alviarin came in.  ;)

[Luckers]

Surely any theory that says that Messy is Danelle relies onsome as yet unknown weave for partially masking your strength?

 

RJ said that such a weave exists though it wasn't widely known in the Age of Legends.

[Sabio]

Perhaps. Though, while Elaida already had taken up residence at the top of the Tower, Alviarin passed Danelle only after she had come lower, where 'sisters began to appear'. Also, the Danelle was clearly not walking toward Alviarin's room, since that is where Alviarin was headed-- if she had, there would have been no need to cross Alviarin's path, and Alviarin surely took the most direct route to get there.

 

Also, from Alviarin's pov, it is evident that Mesaana was already waiting for Alviarin to arrive--unless she was following Alviarin at Alviarin's heels, which is something I do not see going unnoticed, coming in and closing the door and then someone else coming in after you and all. Clearly she had hurried to Alviarin's rooms as soon as the interview with Elaida was over, so as to impress Alviarin with her omnipotency, if she did not listen to the interview there. Had she been crossing Alviarin's path lower in the Tower when Alviarin had already descended, I do not know how this should be plausible. Had she started toward Alviarin's rooms normally, she would not have crossed her path but been there before Alviarin as she intended, and had she Travelled to the rooms, which I am not certain she would risk considering the possibility of servants, she could have done that from higher up in the Tower where there are less people present or wherever she was listening at.

 

Hmm, though at this interview, Mesaana did not appear to listen. She did not know about Elaida's Foretelling before Alviarin told her. Nevertheless, the problem of reaching Alviarin's rooms ahead of her remains.

 

However, in PoD ch 25 Mesaana knew of Alviarin's visit to Elaida, and knew she had had Elaida sign the proclamation on Rand, and had her beaten too. Either Mesaana directly sent Alviarin there then, which doesn't seem likely since she did not know Alviarin had already had the proclamation sent out to the harbours before the signing, or she knew to listen when Alviarin came in.  ;)

 

Well she wouldn't head directly to Alviarin's room.  The Ajah's no longer like each other and If Danelle was seen heading towards another Ajah's section to get to Alviarin quarters she would risk a confrontation and some people might wonder what Danelle was doing.  I think she would just get to the quarters by traveling.  Doubtful servants are allowed in an Aes Sedai quarters and on the slim chance if one happened to be, well then there would be one missing servant. 

[Graendals favourite]

Well she wouldn't head directly to Alviarin's room.  The Ajah's no longer like each other and If Danelle was seen heading towards another Ajah's section to get to Alviarin quarters she would risk a confrontation and some people might wonder what Danelle was doing.  I think she would just get to the quarters by traveling.  Doubtful servants are allowed in an Aes Sedai quarters and on the slim chance if one happened to be, well then there would be one missing servant.

Oh but Alviarin's were the Keepers' rooms, which are not in any Ajah's quarters. The Keeper is not properly part of her old Ajah while serving as Keeper.

 

Travelling is a possibility, but to do so frequently risks exposure. At the least Mesaana should know beforehand that Alviarin does not have company when she comes, or she might risk much.

 

Oh, certainly there are servants, and daily. Aes Sedai do not clean or change sheets, after all.

[Majsju]

Jumping in on a single servant, or even two should not be a problem for someone who knows the weave for Compulsion. Which Mesaana should, even if she is not addicted to it like Graendal or Rahvin.

[Graendals favourite]

Nevertheless, I would think it would make more sense for her to simply walk to Alviarin's rooms, and she does not always have to wear her own role if she wishes to be discreet. In the case of aCoS, if she were Danelle, it would have made more sense for her to make her entry as in CoT, that is there is no hurry. In CoT, obviously Mesaana came in through the door, Alviarin being in a different room than the one next to the hallway, and started her show with the mask of mirrors already woven and inverted, while in aCoS the same was true save for Mesaana already being in the rooms. Had she Travelled in the latter case, Alviarin would have felt it since the gateway would have had to form before being inverted.

[Sabio]

The fact she is in the keepers rooms is even more reason not to be seen going there, since even fewer people would have a reason to see the Keeper in her quarters.  Hiding her identity would be runied if after a meeting someone walked up to Alviarin and asked her "ohhh saw Danelle walking to your rooms, what did she want?"

 

As for servants, you are in the tower where no one trusts each other anymore, I can't see many people allowing a servant alone in their rooms.  Maybe when they are present, but probably not if they aren't. After all who knows who that servant might be a spy for.

[Graendals favourite]

The fact she is in the keepers rooms is even more reason not to be seen going there, since even fewer people would have a reason to see the Keeper in her quarters.  Hiding her identity would be runied if after a meeting someone walked up to Alviarin and asked her "ohhh saw Danelle walking to your rooms, what did she want?"

That is true, Mesaana would not want people seeing her alias going in and out of Alviarin's apartments. It would be an unnecessary risk, though not more so than Travelling in the room blindly-- for example, not everyone who sees a gateway open will just stand and stare while Mesaana takes her time, just as well they may flee and start shouting about it resulting in all sorts of rumours at the very least. Most probably there is no reason they cannot walk by her rooms and slip in if no-one is close though. They are described as being on the sixth level with a balcony overlooking the squeare in front of the White Tower, so in no secluded part. Though for servants, it is not their business what Aes Sedai do.

As for servants, you are in the tower where no one trusts each other anymore, I can't see many people allowing a servant alone in their rooms.  Maybe when they are present, but probably not if they aren't. After all who knows who that servant might be a spy for.

Aes Sedai don't trust Aes Sedai from different Ajahs, but servants are not Aes Sedai. They are not ordinarily noticed. What Aes Sedai would wish to spend her time supervising servants doing their work? As well they might take a hand in it themselves. There's numerous chores, cleaning, bringing up water, firewood, taking out nightjars, all sorts of things that need doing. In that chapter in CoT, Alviarin keeps the ter'angreal given by Mesaana in a safe box the servants do not know how to open, for the precise reason that some servant might steal, nevermind her keeping the box in the back of a wardrobe.