Stasis Boxes

[cheyjade]

Several times in the series, Forsaken mention finding stasis boxes. Graendal found one containing streith, Aran'gar found one containing 'the most appalling rubbish', Sammael found one full of artwork (I think), and Ishamael found one full of Zomara.

 

1. So if the Forsaken are finding these boxes all over the place, they must be pretty common. Maybe they look like blocks of stone, and no third-ager realizes what they are, or how to open them. If that's the case, how do the Forsaken know what they are, and how do they know where to look?

 

2. In The Great Hunt, Ishamael has dozens, if not a hundred, Zomara serving darkfriends at a meeting. So..

  a. The box he found must be pretty huge. Unless space is irrelevant inside.

  b. Living beings can exist inside the boxes unharmed. Maybe other living beings jumped into a box at the last second to avoid a male Aes Sedai going nuclear.

 

Thoughts?

 

(edited to fix an error)

[balefireruinssteaks]

it's likely that there are more stasis boxes than we realize but only because the Forsaken recognize a stasis box for what it is...and people in this Age wouldn't even know what to look for, much less how to open it or what to do with what's inside of it.  Remember that one of the Forsaken found one and was nearly killed by the being inside of it (the one that's after Mat).

 

Ishamael and the rest of the Forsaken have an advantage because they can recognize things in this Age that are remnants of their own Age.  Ishamael killed the head of the Black Ajah by putting her in a ter'angreal that no one knew the use for...but he did, as well as how to activate it.  So i'm sure we may have already seen a stasis box floating about but just didn't know what it was.

[DemandredFO]

Rand could possibly find one and find something useful inside, doubtful, but it could happen.  However, I'm sure few if anymore will be found until after TG, after all, the can't find one with an army inside or some nuclear weapons.  I doubt anymore will be found but I wish we could find one with a worm transformed, I'd like to see what they tranform into.

[Roxinos]

As far as I'm aware, the stasis boxes are fairly rare. The way the Chosen encounter another Chosen who has an object from a stasis box, they seem quite taken aback. In fact, those of the Chosen who had never found any stasis boxes were quite annoyed at the others' luck. As far as I'm aware, they were never "finding these boxes all over the place." They had either stumbled upon them in their travels after they'd awakened before they'd entrenched themselves, or, after they had established themselves, sent Darkfriends out to search for them.

[Mr Ares]

Several times in the series, Forsaken mention finding stasis boxes. Graendal found one full of 'the most appalling rubbish', Sammael found one full of artwork I think, and Ishamael found one full of Zomara.

 

1. So if the Forsaken are finding these boxes all over the place, they must be pretty common. Maybe they look like blocks of stone, and no third-ager realizes what they are, or how to open them. If that's the case, how do the Forsaken know what they are, and how do they know where to look?

Sammael found a gholam, among other things (that's where Granedal got her angreal, after raiding her late colleagues rooms), and Graendal found streith. 3 is not common or all over the place, unless you are using a very different definition to the rest of us. And how do you think a bunch of people from the Age of Legends recognize AoL technology?

[cheyjade]

Ishamael and the rest of the Forsaken have an advantage because they can recognize things in this Age that are remnants of their own Age.  Ishamael killed the head of the Black Ajah by putting her in a ter'angreal that no one knew the use for...but he did, as well as how to activate it.  So i'm sure we may have already seen a stasis box floating about but just didn't know what it was.

I don't remember Ishamael doing that.. what book was that in? Was there a description of the ter'angreal?

[cheyjade]

As far as I'm aware, they were never "finding these boxes all over the place." They had either stumbled upon them in their travels after they'd awakened before they'd entrenched themselves, or, after they had established themselves, sent Darkfriends out to search for them.

 

Thirteen people thrust into a world with a slightly different language, different customs, and different geography, have time to learn all they need to know to blend in, explore, and also establish themselves, as well as start plots and schemes. Three of the thirteen also manage to find treasure troves of AoL technology secreted in stasis boxes, and it only takes them two years. Compared to thousands of Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Windfinders, over the course of 3,000 years, who never even notice one.

 

Unless they HAVE noticed them, and never knew what they were. It seems more in RJ's character to mention the boxes but not explain what they were, like with the tower of Ghenji and the hand of the female Choedan Kal on Tremalking. Which is what I was wondering - aside from the 'ter'angreal' mentioned in a previous post, has anyone noticed anything described in the books that may be a stasis box?

 

[Sabio]

They would have to be rare , least thats my assumption from reading.  Thought someone mentioned something about problem finding them becuase of how much the world has changed since they were trapped.  Most might be under a mountain or bottom of the ocean now.  And since they weren't expecting to be trapped they weren't really planning ahead for storing stuff.  Though I am still curious why someone would stuff a gholam in one.

[cheyjade]

3 is not common or all over the place, unless you are using a very different definition to the rest of us. And how do you think a bunch of people from the Age of Legends recognize AoL technology?

 

My definition of 'all over the place' was in comparison to thousands of channelers over thousands of years never finding one. I know they wouldn't know what it was if they did find it, but I would think an obvious remnant of the AoL would be marked out as such - either moved to the White Tower, or a building built around it to protect others from it, or something. In any case, we should have seen at least one in the series so far. So yes, three out of thirteen is a high percentage of success, in this case.

 

I do not know how a bunch of people from the age of legends recognize AoL technology. That's why I asked. Are they marked physically - in the way that I would recognize a TV if Earth underwent an event similar to the Breaking and I jumped in a time machine that skipped 3,000 years? Or maybe they're marked with the power. What do you guys <i>think</I>?

 

Going on the assumption that the boxes must be large enough to fit things into (instead of opening into another dimension where the items are stored), the boxes must be able to be pretty large (dozens of zomara). Thus, there exist in Randland large items that are obviously items of the Age of Legends. But we never hear mention of them in the books, IE, <I>Elayne rode her horse past a large stone block standing next to the stable. This block was carved over with strange markings, and resisted being moved. Even though it had stood there for centuries, it remained unweathered.</I> (or whatever)

 

 

[Roxinos]

I'm not debating whether or not these stasis boxes look ordinary to the naked eye. I'm not debating that the Chosen seem able to distinguish these objects from anything else while the people native to the Third Age cannot. I'm debating the relative rarity of the objects as proposed by you. You proposed that they are not particularly rare. I propose they are.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I don't remember Ishamael doing that.. what book was that in? Was there a description of the ter'angreal?

 

I'm fairly sure it was Ishamael.  Alviarin was thinking to herself how she became the head of the Black Ajah and mentioned that the former head had incurred the wrath of one of the Forsaken, who threw her into a ter'angreal that no one knew the use for.  "when what was left of her could be recovered, Sisters came from all over to pay their respects" and so on.  I think it was after one of Alviarin's meetings with Mesaana, where she was saying that the Forsaken were vast in their knowledge but not altogether omniscient.

[balefireruinssteaks]

You proposed that they are not particularly rare. I propose they are.

 

well anything is kind of rare.  Ter'angreal, Sa'angreal, Angreal...cuendilar, Portal Stones, etc.  Though there seem to be stashes of these things in various places (Tear, Rhuidean, the ter'angreal in Far Madding) it seems more likely that there could be many others that people just don't recognize as such things because they have no reference for them.

 

I'm reminded of a situation where a friend of mine and I were walking and I looked up and saw a symbol painted on a wall.  It was nothing extraordinary, but I recognized it because I had talked to someone who was into magic and stuff, and she showed me different runes and symbols that she used for protection and whatever.  So I chuckled and pointed it out, and my friend was in awe that people did that, but would have walked right by it had I not pointed it out. 

 

So in this Age, people may walk right by stasis boxes (not that there are hundreds of them lying about all over the place) and not have any idea what they are and write it off as just something there.  So a Forsaken would see it and immediately recognize it for what it was. 

 

I don't propose that they are lying around every city just being ignored, but perhaps they are more numerous than one or two or three.  Like stedding, objects of the Power, and Portal Stones these things were thrust about after the Breaking of the World so there may be a lot of them at the bottom of the ocean, or in a forest somewhere, or they could have all mostly been destroyed.

[Roxinos]

So you're playing the semantics game? I'm not here to debate semantics. Seeing as you're not even the person I was originally addressing, the poster of this topic, you putting your two cents in really doesn't make much sense. I'm not arguing with your opinion, I'm arguing with "cheyjade" over this statement: "So if the Forsaken are finding these boxes all over the place, they must be pretty common."

[Mr Ares]

I do not know how a bunch of people from the age of legends recognize AoL technology. That's why I asked. Are they marked physically - in the way that I would recognize a TV if Earth underwent an event similar to the Breaking and I jumped in a time machine that skipped 3,000 years? Or maybe they're marked with the power. What do you guys think?

I think the answer is bloody obvious - they recognize it because they have seen it and they know what they are looking for. If Third Agers saw it they may not see anything remarkable, or may not do anything with it. Like the Portal Stones. So they are left, then the Chosen manage to find three of them.

 

Going on the assumption that the boxes must be large enough to fit things into (instead of opening into another dimension where the items are stored), the boxes must be able to be pretty large (dozens of zomara).

Or (revolutionary thought) they could come in different sizes. Ishamael found a particularly large one, Graendal quite a small one, Sammael somewhere in between. That is a possibility, wouldn't you say?

Thus, there exist in Randland large items that are obviously items of the Age of Legends.

Obvious to the AoLers, but not necessarily to anyone else.

 

And since they weren't expecting to be trapped they weren't really planning ahead for storing stuff.

Presumably people with a bit more time to prepare put the stuff in storage - other Chosen, even people with the Light.

Though I am still curious why someone would stuff a gholam in one.

Where else would you store a gholam?

 

I don't remember Ishamael doing that.. what book was that in? Was there a description of the ter'angreal?

It happened some time between NS and EotW. It was mentioned in the CoS Prologue. And the BWB.

[cheyjade]

I'm arguing with "cheyjade" over this statement: "So if the Forsaken are finding these boxes all over the place, they must be pretty common."

 

I apologize for starting an argument. I'd rather discuss than argue, or even debate. It bothers me when people start snapping at each other over theories, which is why I rarely post - I'd rather not take part in 'debates.'

 

Maybe I should have said, 'If the forsaken are finding these boxes with barely any time to search (see my previous posts for clarification on why i think they had little time), they must just be stumbling over them. Which means they're laying around in plain sight, even if there's only one per country, on average.'

 

I never meant to imply that they're so common that our heroes have wandered past, around, or over them several times in each book. I just think that at least one should have been seen, somewhere. Maybe I should look up the scene where Nynaeve and Elayne find the male A'dam and the Seal in Tanchicho. There may be one in that museum (but probably not, again, not trying to imply that they're THAT common).

 

Also, if I'm correct in assuming that an obvious AoL remnant would be placed in the tower, or a museum, then there may be at least one stasis box, possibly with very useful items inside, available to the Light side. If they ever realize what to look for, or even that they should look. Maybe with Semirhage available, Cadsuane can winkle that bit of information out of her.

[Mr Ares]

Also, if I'm correct in assuming that an obvious AoL remnant would be placed in the tower, or a museum,

There are examples, such as the Portal Stones, of relics not being put in museums or the Tower. Likewise the ToG, and the other things mentioned in EotW. Also, who said they were in any way obvious? They may only be obvious to people who already know what they are looking for.

Maybe with Semirhage available, Cadsuane can winkle that bit of information out of her.

Maybe LTT will know something helpful.

[Hybrid]

Though I am still curious why someone would stuff a gholam in one.

Where else would you store a gholam?

 

I believe the point was not where you would store a gholam, but why anyone would want to preserve a gholam.  My view is that someone wanted to get rid of a gholam but couldn't, for whatever reason, kill it.  So they stuffed it in a stasis box and put the box somewhere they thought was safe.  The Breaking messed up the world an awful lot, and then Sammael found the box.

[Mr Ares]

I believe the point was not where you would store a gholam, but why anyone would want to preserve a gholam.

To use it later, of course. If they kept it out the box, they'd have to feed it.

[Roxinos]

I believe you misunderstand me when I use the word "argument" cheyjade. An argument is anytime two or more people have differing opinions. You call it a discussion, I call it an argument. It's the same thing. But thanks for clearing that up.

 

There are examples, such as the Portal Stones, of relics not being put in museums or the Tower.

 

If I recall correctly, that's merely because the Portal Stones cannot be moved.

 

Everything else I completely agree with, and even that statement I'm not disagreeing with, Mr Ares.

 

Presumably people with a bit more time to prepare put the stuff in storage - other Chosen, even people with the Light.

 

I love how you referenced the existence of other Chosen besides the thirteen we're familiar with.

 

But yes, it seems that the stasis boxes were not created by the Chosen but merely found by them. It seems most likely that the stasis boxes are merely a super-advanced version of the time-capsules that we use today to store things for future generations to find. Then again, at the start of the Breaking, you'd have even more reason to want to store things.

 

You simply cannot force a gholam into a stasis box no matter how powerful you are unless you have a foxhead medallion. I'm going with Occam's razor here to assume that the gholam was merely ordered into the stasis box by a Chosen to be used later.

[Sabio]

You simply cannot force a gholam into a stasis box no matter how powerful you are unless you have a foxhead medallion. I'm going with Occam's razor here to assume that the gholam was merely ordered into the stasis box by a Chosen to be used later.

 

Why not?  Considering how the Forsaken feel about them it doesn't sound like something someone would want to save.  The power might not hurt it directly but you might be able to pull a wall of air in front of it and maybe push it backwards with it.  Would make sense if you could harm it but not kill it a sensible place to try to force it in to.  Plus they don't seem too loyal since at least one Forsaken mentioned having an unfortunate incident with one.

[Majsju]

Maybe with Semirhage available, Cadsuane can winkle that bit of information out of her.

 

How would she do that? Cadsuane does not know about stasisboxes, so she can not flat out tell Semi to tell her everything about those. And she can hardly tell Semi to "Tell us everything you know that might be useful to us", because that would take years, and stasisboxes would not exactly be on top of the list of things to tell.

[Roxinos]

You simply cannot force a gholam into a stasis box no matter how powerful you are unless you have a foxhead medallion. I'm going with Occam's razor here to assume that the gholam was merely ordered into the stasis box by a Chosen to be used later.

 

Why not?  Considering how the Forsaken feel about them it doesn't sound like something someone would want to save.  The power might not hurt it directly but you might be able to pull a wall of air in front of it and maybe push it backwards with it.  Would make sense if you could harm it but not kill it a sensible place to try to force it in to.  Plus they don't seem too loyal since at least one Forsaken mentioned having an unfortunate incident with one.

 

The Chosen feel uncomfortable around the gholams yes, but that doesn't mean that they don't realize that the beasts are incredibly powerful and incredibly useful. You cannot force a gholam to do anything physically considering their incredible speed, strength, and ability to fit through small spaces. And you can't, as you mentioned, use a wall of air to push them back as that wall of air is made with the Power and the second it touches them, it would dissolve.

 

The Chosen feel uncomfortable around the gholams due to that very fact. The beasts' immunity to the Power makes them a foe which the Chosen have never had to deal with, and they're all mainly just glad that the beasts are all programmed to obey the Shadow. They are still creations, and so they are still bound by those rules. Any incident which occurs between a gholam and a Chosen is merely due to the fact that the gholams are intelligent and know that the Chosen do not like them.

[balefireruinssteaks]

So you're playing the semantics game? I'm not here to debate semantics. Seeing as you're not even the person I was originally addressing, the poster of this topic, you putting your two cents in really doesn't make much sense. I'm not arguing with your opinion, I'm arguing with "cheyjade" over this statement: "So if the Forsaken are finding these boxes all over the place, they must be pretty common

 

wow, way to be a total...

 

 

I was just putting my "two cents" in because, oh I'm sorry...I thought that's what these forums were for.  You know, reading posts and then adding or helping people understand something that they don't.  Maybe I misunderstood.

[Roxinos]

Please try to refrain from using language like that, balefire. In fact, it'd be wise to edit that statement. Dragonmount is a PG-13 website.

 

With that aside, I'm sorry if I offended you. I did not feel the need to continue an argument started with someone other than the person I was originally addressing. Especially considering the argument you had brought up had little relevance to the initial discussion. Not to mention that, as I said, the argument that you brought up was really just a matter of semantics rather than an argument which has any sort of differing opinion to be shared.

[Majsju]

Kids, be nice to eachother.