Rescue of Moiraine

[xPsychx]

Courage does not mean not being afraid, not worrying etc.

 

Being scared and still go through with a challenge is far more couragues than being too stupid to be scared, and rush in like a mad bull.

 

 

 

Heh I can see your point there. I suppose I just put more of a simple def. to the word courage. I agree he has it but sometimes I think he mostly does things because he isn't willing to see another die when he could change it. And yes thats courage but I guess i'm just saying i wouldn't place the Courage angle entirely upon Mat is all.

[Majsju]

Fire: Mat has shown quite a fascination for Aludras strikers, and even if he does not think about the Finns, he would most likely ask Aludra for a small stahs when they part ways.

 

Courage: Both Mat and Thom has shown quite a bit of it, and if Noal is the third guy...Well, considering what he did as Farstrider, he at least used to have a lot of courage.

 

Music: Not very hard for Thom to have a flute on him.

 

Iron: Visit a city, find a blacksmith, and they have an iron knife within the hour. Heck, they could take one each. They must visit a city anyway, to find a bronze knife.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Will they really figure out how to beat the Finns before going there? I think it more likely that they will find out by 'accident' while confronting the Finns and then using it to their advantage.

[Dakeyras]

That'd be one of the biggest "D'oh" moments in the book for sure. Moiraine told them in the letter to remember everything they could about the Finns. Olver says the fire, iron speech practically everytime he starts a new game. Not to mention they specifically told Mat what he couldn't bring. I'd be surprised if they didn't piece it together before hand.

[RAND AL THOR]

That'd be one of the biggest "D'oh" moments in the book for sure. Moiraine told them in the letter to remember everything they could about the Finns. Olver says the fire, iron speech practically everytime he starts a new game. Not to mention they specifically told Mat what he couldn't bring. I'd be surprised if they didn't piece it together before hand.

 

Ah! But I would have expected them to have done it by now, if they could.

 

Furthermore, lets not forget that the game is a game after all. There is no reason for anyone to take that seriously (Especially because it is a weird game where you cannot win legally). From anyone in Randland's point of view : there is no reason to pay any attention to some silly verses in a board game. We, as readers, know otherwise of course.

 

It's sad that Perrin never got to talk to Mat about what Birgitte said to him. Now, THAT would get some gears turning.....

[xPsychx]

 

 

It's sad that Perrin never got to talk to Mat about what Birgitte said to him. Now, THAT would get some gears turning.....

 

Refresh my memory on this?

[Majsju]

Fortunatly, Thom happens to be one of the greatest minds in Randland when it comes to Daes Dae'mar, which means he is pretty damn good at solving riddles and puzzles. With the instruction from Moiraine to remember everything he knows about the game, together with Mats experience to help identify the finns as snakes and foxes, it is not a very great leap to connect the dots and figure out that the rhyme in the beginning of the game actually comes from experience dealing with the finns.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

 

It's sad that Perrin never got to talk to Mat about what Birgitte said to him. Now, THAT would get some gears turning.....

 

Refresh my memory on this?

 

When Perrin hunts slayer, and Slayer disappears into the Tower of Gengei in T'A'R, Birgitte turns up and gives a little info about the Tower and the Finns. Of course, Perrin has no idea at all but if he shared this with Mat (which is HIGHLY unlikely) then he may just help out a bit.

[xPsychx]

now i remember thanks lol

[Dakeyras]

Ah! But I would have expected them to have done it by now, if they could.

 

 

Mat starts to piece it together at the end of KoD. He knows the Finns are Snakes and Foxes. He knows what he can and can't bring. Rand even told him that the Finns stopped trying to attack him when he brought out the fire sword, if he remembers this it's further proof he needs to take fire, iron and music to stop them.

 

Birgitte told Olver who told Mat how to open the tower and it's links to the game he plays.

 

If Mat doesn't have atleast a small inkling of what he needs inside the tower he'd be as blind as Rand was in planning the cleansing.

[wvlr]

he'd be as blind as Rand was in planning the cleansing.

 

FINALLY!!!    Someone who agrees with me! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Asmo]

Anyway, I'm simply basing this off the whole "courage, iron, music, fire" quartet, as well as the fact that only three people are allowed to go in. Since there are four qualities and three people, that means one quality must be generic,

You are also making the needless assumption that it has to be one thing each - why not have Mat and Noal have a flaming torch in one hand and a lump of iron in another, while Tom plays his harp? There needn't be only one generic quality. While Thom s a reasonable choice for providing music, I don't really see why either Mat or Noal is any more closely associated with one thing over another. Well, Mat has an association with Aludra, who is a former Illuminator, so he has that association with fire, I suppose. But neither has any with iron.

 

Assumption, yes. Needless, perhaps. If they piece out what needs to be brought and enter the Finnland packed with iron and torches and a portable stereo to boot (now that would be a sight), it just seems that the thing will be over real quick (not that it may not have to, considering we only have one book to go). I just believe that they will be caught rather unprepared, either due to lack of insight, circumstances, or pure taveren working against them, and it will all come down to each possessing one of the three keys to beat the Finns, and all three possessing part of the fourth.

 

Well, I'm not saying it has to go that way, just that it might. We'll see.

[Jarraad]

It won't make much sense if it's Noal. The Finns fear fire, iron, music and courage. Presuming that courage is the universal value (one has to be, since we are limited to 3 people), Mat possesses the iron (the silver foxhead, by extension) and Thom possesses the music, we need someone that has something to do with fire. That's why I expect a channeler. Teslyn or Joline? At any rate, Jordan may well throw my theory down the drain and use Noal. I doubt it somewhat, though.

 

Well heres an idea.  Think about this, those three already have courage, simply by entering the tower of Genjei.  Thom obviously has music, and mat's ashanderei is iron, mined and forged with the one power.  And guess what, there is a channeler.  OMG who are they rescuing????  Moiraine, a channeler. 

[aslansrevenge]

It won't make much sense if it's Noal. The Finns fear fire, iron, music and courage. Presuming that courage is the universal value (one has to be, since we are limited to 3 people), Mat possesses the iron (the silver foxhead, by extension) and Thom possesses the music, we need someone that has something to do with fire. That's why I expect a channeler. Teslyn or Joline? At any rate, Jordan may well throw my theory down the drain and use Noal. I doubt it somewhat, though.

 

Well heres an idea.  Think about this, those three already have courage, simply by entering the tower of Genjei.  Thom obviously has music, and mat's ashanderei is iron, mined and forged with the one power.  And guess what, there is a channeler.  OMG who are they rescuing????  Moiraine, a channeler.   

 

But will she still be a channeler or will she have been burnt out like lanfear

[Guest Dreadlord]

Well, Lans bond snapping means SOMETHING happened, so it does seem as if Moiraine was stilled/burnt out. I reckon Moiraine and Lanfear fought over Lanfears angreal, both drew on it at once-Lanfear more than Moiraine-and it broke, stilling Moiraine and burning Lanfear out.

 

I remember reading somewhere an interview with RJ and they asked him if Moiraine and Lanfear got to ask questions of the Finns and if so what questions. RJ replied with "Thats a big RAFO." Cant wait to hear whats been going on in Finnland while Moiraines been there.

[Majsju]

 

 

I remember reading somewhere an interview with RJ and they asked him if Moiraine and Lanfear got to ask questions of the Finns and if so what questions. RJ replied with "Thats a big RAFO." Cant wait to hear whats been going on in Finnland while Moiraines been there.

 

You are mixing the Eelfinn with the Aelfinn. Moiraine fell into the doorway leading to the Eelfinn, who are the ones making bargains.

The Aelfinn are the ones answering questions, and Moiraine entered that doorway in Tear.

[wconn1979]

Well, Lans bond snapping means SOMETHING happened, so it does seem as if Moiraine was stilled/burnt out.

 

 

I know its not likely, but I was always hopeing that Lans bond snapped when the dorway was destroyed not because she was killed or stilled/burnt out.

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Well, Lans bond snapping means SOMETHING happened, so it does seem as if Moiraine was stilled/burnt out.

 

 

I know its not likely, but I was always hopeing that Lans bond snapped when the dorway was destroyed not because she was killed or stilled/burnt out.

 

 

Even though the doorway was destroyed, there are at least two other ways to access Finnland from Randland so the connection between the worlds still exists. That makes it clear that the bond snapping cannot be due to the doorway destruction. I also seem to recall that Lan said that she was gone even before it was utterly destroyed. I am not too sure on this however.

[wconn1979]

Well, Lans bond snapping means SOMETHING happened, so it does seem as if Moiraine was stilled/burnt out.

 

 

I know its not likely, but I was always hopeing that Lans bond snapped when the dorway was destroyed not because she was killed or stilled/burnt out.

 

 

Even though the doorway was destroyed, there are at least two other ways to access Finnland from Randland so the connection between the worlds still exists. That makes it clear that the bond snapping cannot be due to the doorway destruction. I also seem to recall that Lan said that she was gone even before it was utterly destroyed. I am not too sure on this however.

 

The Tower of Ghenjei is the only way left to enter the lands of Eelfinn.  If there is another way I have not heard of it. 

 

Even though there is technicaly another way into the lands of the Eelfinn its not clear on wether or not the gateway that Moiraine went through being destroyed would have snapped the bond or not so I guess we get to RAFO.   

[Majsju]

The Tower of Ghenjei is the only way left to enter the lands of Aelfinn.  If there is another way I have not heard of it. 

 

Even though there is technicaly another way into the lands of the Aelfinn its not clear on wether or not the gateway that Moiraine went through being destroyed would have snapped the bond or not so I guess we get to RAFO. 

 

Eelfinn, not Aelfinn. The doorway to the Aelfinn still stands in Tear.

[wconn1979]

The Tower of Ghenjei is the only way left to enter the lands of Aelfinn.  If there is another way I have not heard of it. 

 

Even though there is technicaly another way into the lands of the Aelfinn its not clear on wether or not the gateway that Moiraine went through being destroyed would have snapped the bond or not so I guess we get to RAFO.  

 

Eelfinn, not Aelfinn. The doorway to the Aelfinn still stands in Tear.

 

I beat you on the Edit.

[RAND AL THOR]

I was assuming that both Finns occupy the same WORLD. Isn't there some indication of this in the story? I believe Birgitte says something like that. That would make it possible (perhaps) to access either Finn via either doorway. I have already said it MAY be possible.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Even though there is technicaly another way into the lands of the Aelfinn its not clear on wether or not the gateway that Moiraine went through being destroyed would have snapped the bond or not so I guess we get to RAFO.

UNQUOTE

 

There is DEFINITELY another way, because Mat hasnt rescued Moiraine yet.

 

I very much doubt that the doorway being destroyed snapped the bond. Why would it? The doorway isnt connected to Moiraines ability to channel at all, and that is essentially what the bond comes down to. When an Aes Sedai is stilled their Warder bond snaps; we know that. We have also seen the effect that can have on a Warder other than Lan (the Warders whose Aes Sedai were stilled by Rand at Dumais Wells) and beyond all that we recognise Lans depression as a side effect of either his Aes Sedai dying or being stilled. We know Moiraine didnt die, so that really must mean she was stilled or burnt out. The idea of the bond snapping due to the doorway being destroyed just doesnt fit with the way everything else works, and since the effect the bond snapping had on Lan fits with the descriptions we have already had of the bond snapping it is safe to believe Moiraine was stilled or burnt out.

[Dakeyras]

That would make it possible (perhaps) to access either Finn via either doorway. I have already said it MAY be possible.

 

And yet all 3 characters that we know of that went through the Tear door all just happened to see the Aelfinn?

 

The Tear gate was originally in Mayene and was used by the First(s) of Mayene to ask questions of the Aelfinn. Rand even reads the book saying so.

 

I think it's unlikely you'd be able to see the Eelfinn through a door that as far as we know only sends you to the Aelfinn.

 

Besides, wasn't part of Mats answer from the Aelfinn to go to Rhuidean and meet the Eelfinn? Alot easier to just say "pop next door please."

[Lemno]

But the tower of Ghenjie grants access to both lands? or am i mistaken now?