Rescue of Moiraine

[_james07_]

In Moiraine's letter to Thom, she says Thom, Mat and one other must rescue her. She says if there are more than 3 of them, they will fail or atleast some of them die. With that said, who will be the third? I was always expecting it to be Olver, but now Noel/Jain volunteered... So what part does Olver play in it?

[Ahaz Flagg]

In Moiraine's letter to Thom, she says Thom, Mat and one other must rescue her. She says if there are more than 3 of them, they will fail or atleast some of them die. With that said, who will be the third? I was always expecting it to be Olver, but now Noel/Jain volunteered... So what part does Olver play in it?

 

It is assumed that Olver is only there to remind them in order to beat Snakes and foxes, you must cheat. that and a false trail about Gadial Cain?

[aslansrevenge]

Olver has been telling us how the free her for the past 4 bboks with his games of Snakes and Foxes.

 

the third will be Nole/Jain

[_james07_]

Maybe Olver was just a way to link the game of Snakes and Foxes to the rescue of Moiraine... What other reason would grown men have for playing the game? But i still thought Olver would play more of a role in it. Maybe Noel will get killed before he goes, or maybe he is a darkfriend like be'lal implied.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Maybe Olver was just a way to link the game of Snakes and Foxes to the rescue of Moiraine... What other reason would grown men have for playing the game? But i still thought Olver would play more of a role in it. Maybe Noel will get killed before he goes, or maybe he is a darkfriend like be'lal implied.

 

Jain/Noal was dupe that Ishy used, that is all!!  there is not a chance in Hades Mat would take Olver in the tower.

[aslansrevenge]

Maybe Olver was just a way to link the game of Snakes and Foxes to the rescue of Moiraine... What other reason would grown men have for playing the game? But i still thought Olver would play more of a role in it. Maybe Noel will get killed before he goes, or maybe he is a darkfriend like be'lal implied.

 

Jain/Noal was dupe that Ishy used, that is all!!  there is not a chance in Hades Mat would take Olver in the tower.

 

I agree mat would die before he risked Olver. End of story

[_james07_]

Oops ya i meant Ishy, got mixed up...

[_james07_]

Haha yeah i didn't think bout that, Mat wouldn't let him

[RAND AL THOR]

Majsju, I suggest you post a new sticky which firmly explains the functions of the search bar.

 

No offence meant james07 but this has been discussed over and over (and a million more 'overs') again. ;)

[Asmo]

It won't make much sense if it's Noal. The Finns fear fire, iron, music and courage. Presuming that courage is the universal value (one has to be, since we are limited to 3 people), Mat possesses the iron (the silver foxhead, by extension) and Thom possesses the music, we need someone that has something to do with fire. That's why I expect a channeler. Teslyn or Joline? At any rate, Jordan may well throw my theory down the drain and use Noal. I doubt it somewhat, though.

[Vemynal]

Olver was there for mat as a person

 

its called character progression

[_james07_]

I think the real reason for Olver being there, was a way to link the game of Snakes and Foxes to the Finns... Without Olver, Mat and the gang wouldn't have a reason to play it all the time. They would just play stones or something and it would be forgotten.

[Marin]

Whoever the third person is (and I think it will be Noal) will use Aludra's version of matches (strikers, I think she calls them?) as the means for fire.

[Mr Ares]

Mat possesses the iron (the silver foxhead, by extension)

What? Silver is not iron. When Mat previously visited the Finns he thought steel was alright as it wasn't iron, but silver is? Seems like a bad theory to me.

 

As for the reason Olver was there, he can be there for more thanone reason. Mat's character progression and telling Mat how to beat the Finns are not mutually exclusive character goals.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Indeed, Mat almost thinks of himself as Olvers dad. I remember hearing about the ourigger RJ planned that would be set with Mat and Tuon ten years after TG, and I thought it would be great if they had addopted Olver and have him in it a lot. He'd be about 16 I think. It would be good to see Olver older, and to see him develop the same way we have with Rand, Mat and Perrin

[Asmo]

Mat possesses the iron (the silver foxhead, by extension)

What? Silver is not iron. When Mat previously visited the Finns he thought steel was alright as it wasn't iron, but silver is? Seems like a bad theory to me.

 

As for the reason Olver was there, he can be there for more thanone reason. Mat's character progression and telling Mat how to beat the Finns are not mutually exclusive character goals.

 

Silver isn't iron, but it can be used as a representation - a symbolism. And again, precisely. Mat thought steel wouldn't do. He didn't really try it, did he? Steel is an alloy of iron, so it would probably work.

 

At any rate, it's only a theory.

 

EDIT: Oh, and it might be the ashandarei instead of the silver medallion.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Didnt Aviendha find an iron dagger? Or am I remembering wrong?

[Majsju]

Didnt Aviendha find an iron dagger? Or am I remembering wrong?

 

The ter'angreal that made Elayne discover Aviendhas Talent for "reading" ter'angreal. According to Elayne, it looked like iron, and felt almost like iron. But since it is a ter'angreal supposed to protect from being seen by the shadow, it would be quite useless against the finns.

[Mr Ares]

EDIT: Oh, and it might be the ashandarei instead of the silver medallion.

Worth noting that both those things came from the Eelfinn in the first place. And I don't think symbolism works - I think they literally need fire, music and iron. Otherwise, they could just show up with a picture of a fire and an old flute and say they symbolise those things.

[Asmo]

EDIT: Oh, and it might be the ashandarei instead of the silver medallion.

Worth noting that both those things came from the Eelfinn in the first place. And I don't think symbolism works - I think they literally need fire, music and iron. Otherwise, they could just show up with a picture of a fire and an old flute and say they symbolise those things.

 

That's not quite the interpretation of symbolism I had in mind, but anyway. Mat can go on brandishing a picture of a flute, but the Finns will still see the picture and realize it is only a picture, thus they won't be scared like they were of Rand's firesword, but if Rand whirls around his spear and says "Blah, this is iron!", they just might believe him. As for the two items being Made-in-Finnland, that doesn't really disprove them being iron. A nuclear bomb is deadly to people, but it is people that produce it.

 

Anyway, I'm simply basing this off the whole "courage, iron, music, fire" quartet, as well as the fact that only three people are allowed to go in. Since there are four qualities and three people, that means one quality must be generic, and the logical choice is courage, since it takes extreme bravery or madness to wander off into the unknown to rescue a woman you don't even know (in Noal's case, if he's the one who's actually going in with them) or like (in Mat's case) [Then again, you might claim that Thom actually loves Moiraine, so he's doing it out of love, not courage, and that Noal is a bit mad anyway due to Ishamael's hocus pocus, so the bravery only falls on Mat, and thus courage is Mat's personal quality here, but still]. Thom most obviously has the music, so that leaves fire and iron. Mat has nothing to do with fire, so if it's a choice between the two, he must somehow connect to the iron. Thereby, I extracted the aforementioned results.

 

So to wrap this up:

 

Moiraine Rescue Team:

 

Case 1:

Courage - Generic Quality

Mat - Iron (foxhead / ashandarei)

Thom - Music (his music, duh)

Teslyn - Fire (channeling)

 

Why Teslyn? Well, she did say she would do anything Mat asked of her, so if he asks, she has to do that. It could be any other channeler though. Something has to happen to put Noal out of the picture, though, and that something is him being a Darkfriend, IMO.

 

Case 2:

Iron or Fire - Generic Quality (all three may be armed with iron weapons, or carry torches etc)

Mat - Courage (see above)

Thom - Music (see above)

Noal - Iron or Fire (depends on what the generic quality is)

 

Likewise, Noal could be someone else, but if you guys insist he's gonna cut it there, fine.

 

Case 3:

I'm wrong about the quality distribution, and they find some other way. After all, they may just need one thing, not all three.

[Fryn]

I thought the running thought was the iron would be from Mat taking out his eye with the iron in his blood completing the 3rd requirement.

[Mr Ares]

Anyway, I'm simply basing this off the whole "courage, iron, music, fire" quartet, as well as the fact that only three people are allowed to go in. Since there are four qualities and three people, that means one quality must be generic,

You are also making the needless assumption that it has to be one thing each - why not have Mat and Noal have a flaming torch in one hand and a lump of iron in another, while Tom plays his harp? There needn't be only one generic quality. While Thom s a reasonable choice for providing music, I don't really see why either Mat or Noal is any more closely associated with one thing over another. Well, Mat has an association with Aludra, who is a former Illuminator, so he has that association with fire, I suppose. But neither has any with iron.

[xPsychx]

Just to randomly throw something out there that I noticed. It's been a while since i've read the WoT series, I am about to re-read it again but anyways. When it came to AS and such, especially Moiraine and stuff Matt always seemed to do things more out of responsibility and such. Do it because it has to be done and someone needed him more than an act of Courage. Mat is always scared and unsure about what hes going to do and when it comes to battle he worries about things and what not so to me I think the whole courage thing will need to be placed differently, but thats just my opinion.

[Dakeyras]

Mat is always scared and unsure about what hes going to do and when it comes to battle he worries about things and what not so to me I think the whole courage thing will need to be placed differently, but thats just my opinion.

 

In the early books Mat was usually forced into a situation by a feeling of responsibility but I see the fact that he acted in that situation instead of just running away as an act of courage. There's no doubt in my mind it took courage to lead the soon to be Band out of the Shaido trap he spotted them in. He could have easily walked away.

 

Later in the books his character progresses and he starts acting in these situations because he knows it's right. Telling Tuon, Thom and Selucia to run whilst he fights how many men and a woman? Helping the Aes Sedai in Ebou Dar.

 

Mat certainly has courage.

 

[Majsju]

Courage does not mean not being afraid, not worrying etc.

 

Being scared and still go through with a challenge is far more couragues than being too stupid to be scared, and rush in like a mad bull.