Bad Deals with Seafolk

[Guest Toad]

Are the seafolk redundant?  Rand wanted a deal with them to shuttle cargo and troops and had to give up land in exchange.  But with all the ashaman, Aes Sedai, Kin, and wiseones - can't they make enough doorways to move whatever he wants?

 

Then the bowl of winds.  The deal is made to provide training in exchange for fixing the weather.  Wouldn't the seafolk have needed it fixed as well?  And even though they are the 'masters' of weather, couldn't the Aes sedai have figured it out on their own?  It might have taken longer to correct, but probably would have gotten the job done.

 

Just seems like they're getting the better end of deals when their 'services' are redundant.

[trakand_01]

Hmmm... I see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure they are redundant, no.

 

I dont know how, quite, but they will be significant. More so than already.

[Guest Toad]

I hope so, because right now I don't see a purpose other than being another irritant for the Dragon.

[Kaznen]

I thought the two girls really got hosed over the Bowl of Winds.  The seafolk wanted it, they also were being effected by the weather, so why did they need all the extra stuff.  The two just could have said, "fine when we find this holy relic of yours, we'll figure out how to use it ourselves, then bury it deep in the White Tower where you'll never see it again."

 

They went to the table unwilling to just walk away.

[Guest Toad]

I thought the two girls really got hosed over the Bowl of Winds.  The seafolk wanted it, they also were being effected by the weather, so why did they need all the extra stuff.  The two just could have said, "fine when we find this holy relic of yours, we'll figure out how to use it ourselves, then bury it deep in the White Tower where you'll never see it again."

 

They went to the table unwilling to just walk away.

 

Yep, an infinitely bad deal.  Maybe the seafolk had a taveerin (or however you spell it)

[Mr Ares]

Yep, an infinitely bad deal. Maybe the seafolk had a taveerin (or however you spell it)

Maybe they were just better negotiators. "We'll give you this if you use it to fix the weather." "We're not that bothered about having it, and without our help you'll never work out how to get it. How about you offer us a bit more?" It might have taken years to work out how to use it, and been too late by then. The Sea Folk had an advantage and they used it to get as much as they could.

[Guest Toad]

Yep, an infinitely bad deal. Maybe the seafolk had a taveerin (or however you spell it)

Maybe they were just better negotiators. "We'll give you this if you use it to fix the weather." "We're not that bothered about having it, and without our help you'll never work out how to get it. How about you offer us a bit more?" It might have taken years to work out how to use it, and been too late by then. The Sea Folk had an advantage and they used it to get as much as they could.

 

I don't think it would have taken years.  Over the course of WoT, we've seen differnt Aes Sedai change the weather.  Though the seafolk could do it better and faster, I still believe the Aes Sedai would have been adequate to the task.

[Majsju]

Yep, an infinitely bad deal. Maybe the seafolk had a taveerin (or however you spell it)

Maybe they were just better negotiators. "We'll give you this if you use it to fix the weather." "We're not that bothered about having it, and without our help you'll never work out how to get it. How about you offer us a bit more?" It might have taken years to work out how to use it, and been too late by then. The Sea Folk had an advantage and they used it to get as much as they could.

 

Indeed, we have had quite a few references to how incredibly skilled at negotiating the seafolk are. Meanwhile, Nynaeve and Elayne were, and still are quite young and inexperienced. And desperate to get the seafolk on board.

 

As for having Asha'man, Aes sedai and Kin using gateways to send supplies, Rand does not have access to the Kin atm, there are not that many Aes Sedai with his party, and the Asha'man are supposed to be ready to fight a war against Seanchan if the negotiations does not work. We saw in Perrins attempts to rescue Faile that using gateways takes a lot of effort, and having your soldiers exhausted before the fighting even starts just might be a bad idea.

[Guest Toad]

So you're thinking that was a good deal?

 

I still think that a straight up trade would have sufficed.  You fix the weather, and we give you the bowl of the winds.  If they said 'no' we walk with the bowl.  Then we see how good of negotiators they are.

 

Granted, I'm not in Rj's world living under perpetual heat and drought, but i thought more of Nynaeve.

[Ahaz Flagg]

The deal with Rand is certianly a good one, at this time Rand will have no land that he rules, so they will get no land form him.  Tear has a king, Illian has a king, andor has Queen.  so right now they will get the square mile in Andor from Elayne.

 

I have no idea what Elayne and Nynaeve were thinking, that trade was pure blind stupid.

[aslansrevenge]

The deal with Rand is certianly a good one, at this time Rand will have no land that he rules, so they will get no land form him.  Tear has a king, Illian has a king, andor has Queen.  so right now they will get the square mile in Andor from Elayne.

 

I have no idea what Elayne and Nynaeve were thinking, that trade was pure blind stupid.

It is a simple fact of supply and demand. "we have the skill you have the problem we will give you what you NEED and you will give us what we WANT" The seafolk could have gone out to sea and waited it would not have been nice but they could have suvived.

[bjclinton]

I #@$(&* hate the Seafolk.......don't even get me GOING on this topic!!!!

 

(please see my post from 2 weeks ago)  ;D

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,32315.0.html

[Guest Toad]

I #@$(&* hate the Seafolk.......don't even get me GOING on this topic!!!!

 

(please see my post from 2 weeks ago)  ;D

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,32315.0.html

 

LOL.  You're excused.  I'm more mad at Nynaeve and Elayne for letting themselves get pushed around.  Just becuase the seafolk have a tradition that whoever asks must pay the greater price, doesn't mean they had to let themselves be strung from the rigging - in a manner of speaking.  The seafolk wanted that bowl of winds as much as Nyn and Elayne wanted the weather fixed.

[Snowy Dawn]

``I #@$(&* hate the Seafolk.......don't even get me GOING on this topic!!!!''

 

Somehow this comment reminded me of Tom Lehrer's song ``National Brotherhood Week'':

 

``Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,

And the black folks hate the white folks.

To hate all but the right folks

Is an old established rule.

 

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,

Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.

It's fun to eulogize

The people you despise,

As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

 

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,

And the rich folks hate the poor folks.

All of my folks hate all of your folks,

It's American as apple pie.

 

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,

New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.

Step up and shake the hand

Of someone you can't stand.

You can tolerate him if you try.

 

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,

And the Catholics hate the Protestants,

And the Hindus hate the Moslems,

And everybody hates the Jews.

 

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,

It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.

Be nice to people who

Are inferior to you.

It's only for a week, so have no fear.

Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!''

[DuDZiK]

This is something I had thought many times myself...

 

I mean some of the Aes Sedai - whether fully trained or the 'wonder girls' - must have the negotiating skills of a three year old to make some of those deals. Either that or the Sea Folk are extremely well practiced at threats and mental pressures or something, but I wonder if those negotiators have ever heard that if you don't like the deal on the table to simply walk away?

 

I mean some of the deals made don't even make any logical sense. Like the one for the Bowl of the Winds: The Sea Folk get the bowl, Aes Sedai teachers whom they can bully as much as they want, in exchange for... what? I still can't figure out what the Aes Sedai got in return that can match what they gave.

[RAND AL THOR]

The procedure of working the Bowl was very complex and known only to the Sea Folk. It would have taken the AS a pointlessly long time to figure it out. That was a big + on the Sea Folk side.

 

Though the bargain does still seem onesided.

[DuDZiK]

The procedure of working the Bowl was very complex and known only to the Sea Folk. It would have taken the AS a pointlessly long time to figure it out. That was a big + on the Sea Folk side.

 

...and? That doesn't mean that they HAD to give it to them, or even let them anywhere near it. They went to them on good faith, with the idea that it was in their mutual interest to fix the weather.

 

In fact, I don't understand how they went from the Bowl and the issue of the weather to giving over Aes Sedai teachers to the Sea Folk. Why not just say: "We want the weather fixed, we have this bowl, you'd be the best to fix it. So we'll give you the bowl as well as out strongest channelers so you can fix the weather, and that's that".

 

That right there is a completely one-sided deal to begin with. They get nothing that they themselves specifically needed, since the weather was something EVERYONE needed fixing. Yet somehow the wonder girls were incredibly stupid enough to give them MORE after that, when it was completely unnecessary. I mean to say the deal was one-sided would have to be the understatement of the third age ::)

 

[Asmo]

About the deal with Rand: The last two points were redundant, but Merana and the rest were shielded and threatened, so they didn't have much choice.

 

About the deal with Nynaeve: We know how impatient Nynaeve can get, and she's completely inexperienced at that. She probably threw up her hands and said "fine, we'll teach you, just fix the damn weather". She probably thought that getting Aes Sedai teachers for the Sea Folk would get the Tower some sort of leverage with the Atha'an Miere, but it completely backfired. And Nynaeve and the rest didn't really need the Bowl once the weather was fixed, at least on the short run. It could have been made better, but it is understandable, under the circumstances.

[RAND AL THOR]

Aes Sedai have different traditions and the Sea Folk have different traditions. Why is it that during the teaching, the everyone follows the sea-folk customs and treat the AS like sh!t? They could just as easily follows AS customs and make all the S Folk equal to novices.

[Guest Toad]

The SeaFolk seemingly have more arrogance than the Aes Sedai and Ashaman combined - and for less reason.

[Mr Ares]

"We want the weather fixed, we have this bowl, you'd be the best to fix it. So we'll give you the bowl as well as out strongest channelers so you can fix the weather, and that's that".

Then they tell you where to stick your Bowl of Winds. Doesn't matter how much they want the Bowl. What matters is how much they can make people think they want it - if they give the impression of not being overly bothered, then what? I'm far from convinced of the AS ability to alter the weather worldwide, which is what is required. I'm also far from convinced of their ability to work out the functioning of the Bowl. They need the Sea Folk, or they die. The Sea Folk refuse to help unless they get what they want. They give the Sea Folk what they want or they die. It's not hard to see how such a poor bargain came to be.

[Guest Toad]

"We want the weather fixed, we have this bowl, you'd be the best to fix it. So we'll give you the bowl as well as out strongest channelers so you can fix the weather, and that's that".

Then they tell you where to stick your Bowl of Winds. Doesn't matter how much they want the Bowl. What matters is how much they can make people think they want it - if they give the impression of not being overly bothered, then what? I'm far from convinced of the AS ability to alter the weather worldwide, which is what is required. I'm also far from convinced of their ability to work out the functioning of the Bowl. They need the Sea Folk, or they die. The Sea Folk refuse to help unless they get what they want. They give the Sea Folk what they want or they die. It's not hard to see how such a poor bargain came to be.

 

If all the land-bound die, who will the sea folk trade with.  And wasn't the weather affecting them as well?  Worse storms on the seas and such?

[Mr Ares]

If all the land-bound die, who will the sea folk trade with? And wasn't the weather affecting them as well? Worse storms on the seas and such?

Doesn't matter, provided they can give the impression that they can live with it, and that if the AS want to survive they better give them what they want.

[DuDZiK]

About the deal with Rand: The last two points were redundant, but Merana and the rest were shielded and threatened, so they didn't have much choice.

 

If they were threatened and abused, at that point they can consider any deal that come of it null and void. You just can't treat negotiators or diplomats like that.

 

About the deal with Nynaeve: We know how impatient Nynaeve can get, and she's completely inexperienced at that. She probably threw up her hands and said "fine, we'll teach you, just fix the damn weather". She probably thought that getting Aes Sedai teachers for the Sea Folk would get the Tower some sort of leverage with the Atha'an Miere, but it completely backfired. And Nynaeve and the rest didn't really need the Bowl once the weather was fixed, at least on the short run. It could have been made better, but it is understandable, under the circumstances.

 

Actually I just remembered something. Was the deal with the Sea Folk before or after Egwene had told Elayne and Nynaeve her plans for uniting all women who can channel in some form of association or another with the White Tower?

[Majsju]

If they were threatened and abused, at that point they can consider any deal that come of it null and void. You just can't treat negotiators or diplomats like that.

 

Seems rather foolish, since Rand got exactly what he asked for, and does not have to give anything that really matters. Well, at least not anything that matters to him, a few rulers might be slightly upset if the deal is around after TG...