Mat vs Galad and Gawyn

[TNine]

Except of course its not just a bet that makes Mat' luck manifest. Its the randomness of the activety. Thus while Tom is unwilling to play dice with Mat he is quite willing to bet on a game of stones because "Skill" is much more important in stones the dice. Now fencin (even fencing between a swordsman and a person with a staff) is much closer to stones (the skill of the particepents is of great importance) then dice playing. So the fight is not an indication of Mat's "random" luck.

 

Maybe, but personally, I don't think I would ever make a bet against Mat over, well, anything. Ever. I'm reminded of Matt's "bet" that he could save Elayne from "Lord Gaebril". Mat is The Gambler, when he bets, the pattern itself warps so that he doesn't lose.

 

Anyway, I don't think the Ta'vern helps him as much in games of pure skill, but to quote the books "there is such a thing as battle luck". And when asked about droppng the bet, Mat said that "he needed the money". Yes, it was partly a joke, but the need of a Ta'vern is a powerful force.

He loses to Thom twice in Winter's Heart, doesn't he? When they are with the traveling circus.

 

 

As for the weapons discussion--In an unarmored situation like, speed beats strength, and a single sword is not going to beat a two-sided quarterstaff. Put some armor on, or give the swordsmen a shield, or make the fight close-quarter--and the quarterstaff loses a lot of ability. Swords are so widely used because they are so widely useful. They can be used to great effects against unarmored and fully armored enemies, can be used well while unarmored or fully armored yourself, can be used on horseback vs footmen and other cavalry, can be used in formation or in freedom, etc. They are also able to use a wide variety of forms--i've heard it said that most weapon forms are in some way a derivative of a sword form, although two-sided weapons like the quarterstaff will not be.

 

Also, it seems that Galad and Gawyn were trained mostly in the sword-focused part of sword fighting, and were paired against like-minded fighters. This means that the fights have the focus on the sword--you watch for where the sword is going and try to get to the body before they can do the same. Then suddenly you have Mat, who's going to be using two or three points of contact, and any part of his body is not just a vulnerability but also a weapon--the dirty style of fighting is going to overload Galad and Gawyn's abilities to spot where threats are coming from.

 

Also, Mat is freaking fast. Underestimate him, and you won't have the time to change strategies.

[Pinzarn]

Doesn't matter whether it's a wooden sword or a real one. The disadvantage doesn't change in a one on one or even a two on one duel in an open area where the quarterstaff user can use it with full effectiveness.

 

Actually, the wooden vs real sword does matter in this case. Part of the strategy with a sword is the potential to bleed you opponent with cuts. This is shown in Galad's fight with the whitecloak commander (his name escapes me at the moment). With wooden swords, you can be a little more careless knowing that you won't get cut. It doesn't make for good practice, but you do have that in the back of your head. In Mat's case, knowing he that his worst injury from the wager could be bruises or damaged pride, he had nothing to lose.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am on the side that a staff will be a sword in a duel most of the time (both combatants properly trained), but Mat had certain things definitely in his favor (he needed the coin, couldn't really get hurt, and luck).

[Pinzarn]

Exactly, RJ even makes a point in the book to say Mat was the best quaterstaff fighter in the two rivers besides Mat's father. I thought it was cool that he also mentioned that Rand was the best archer in the Two Rivers, but that was only a side note.

Wrong on both counts:

TEotW' date='Ch1 - Tam is the best archer in Emond's Field.

TDR,Ch24 - Tam wins the Emond's Field quarterstaff competition if Abell Cauthon does not.[/quote']

 

In the chapter that Mat beats G&G, Mat states that his father is the best and Tam is a close second.

[FarShainMael]

On the subject of swords v staffs..

 

From the 'Journal of Western Martial Art':

 

The Quarterstaff was for centuries considered the weapon of the lower sections of society, although the nobility had a healthy respect for the Quarterstaff, which they also practised. In reality Quarterstaffing, as a fighting art reigned supreme in England for many centuries.

...

 

The quarterstaff was, and is an extremely versatile weapon, it can be used as freely as the staff man wishes to use it. When used to strike or hit it is like a sword or battle axe, when used to thrust it becomes like a spear, strikes and thrusts can be from either side of the body. This makes it very difficult for any opponent to respond quickly to these attacks, that can change so readily from side to side, and from thrust to strike without pause.

 

 

Here is a comment on the effectiveness of staffs against swords, from George Silver, writing in 1599:

 

"The short staff hath the vantage against two swords and daggers, or two rapiers and poinards, and gauntlets, the reason and causes before are for the most part set down already, the which being well considered, you shall plainly see, that whensoever any one of the sword and dagger men, or rapier and poinard men shall break his distance, or suffer the staff man to break his, that man which did first break his distance, or suffer the distance to be won against him, is presently in dangr of death. And this cannot in reason be denied, because the distance appertaining to the staff man, either to keep or break, standeth upon the moving of one large space always at the most, both for his offence or safety. The other two in the breach of their distance to offend the staff man, have always four paces at the least therin they fall to great in number with their feet, and too short in distance to offend the staff man."

 

"Now there resteth no more to be spoken of, but how the staff man shall behave himself to keep that distance."

 

And if anyone's interested in having a go.. (There may be an American equivalent)

 

http://www.quarterstaff.org/

[Balefire to da face!]

While it may not apply to Warders, most in Randland would favor swords because quarterstaffs are useless in a Phalanx or Maniple fighting formation, or even from the back of a horse. It's true that swords aren't always ideal, but as others have said it's much more versatile then a quarterstaff in actual battles. Granted, the duties of a Warder make it far more likely that they would train to fight single combat or in very small groups, but that is not representative at all of how the vast majority of professional soldiers would learn how to fight.

 

As for the original topic. It was really more Galad vs. Mat then it was Mat vs. Gawyn and Galad. It really is a good point that Galad was basically fighting with half a weapon, while Mat had an actual quarterstaff. The Galad that Mat faced may have been a quick learner, but he was still in training, so there's also that to factor in.

[Tensai0211]

The reason Mat beat both Gawyn and Galad is because they both underestimated him, The simple country bumpkin with a stick he couldn't possibly beat us. This is reinforced by the story about Jearom and his loss to the farmer with a staff. Never underestimate your enemy.

 

 

The staff is an extremely effective weapon in trained hands, it great advantage over the sword is its ability to control distance( what we call Maai in Japanese martial arts - basically distance and the time to cross it as well as angle and interval of attack) because it doesn't have a fixed grip the way a sword does.

[Finnssss22]

The reason Mat beat both Gawyn and Galad is because they both underestimated him, The simple country bumpkin with a stick he couldn't possibly beat us. This is reinforced by the story about Jearom and his loss to the farmer with a staff. Never underestimate your enemy.

 

 

The staff is an extremely effective weapon in trained hands, it great advantage over the sword is its ability to control distance( what we call Maai in Japanese martial arts - basically distance and the time to cross it as well as angle and interval of attack) because it doesn't have a fixed grip the way a sword does.

 

Being underestimated led to the quick KO of Gawyn sure, but Galad was under no such illusion when Mat beat him.

[avernite]

Just an idle thought: what happens when a staff hits the sharp edge of a sword? Is the guy holding the sword going to lose his sword/have it break, or is the staff going to snap? (for typical cases, of course... thick enough staffs, or perfectly held swords, need not apply)

[Pinzarn]

Just an idle thought: what happens when a staff hits the sharp edge of a sword? Is the guy holding the sword going to lose his sword/have it break, or is the staff going to snap? (for typical cases, of course... thick enough staffs, or perfectly held swords, need not apply)

 

It depends on the wood that the staff is made of. Some of the harder species will be able to withstand a few solid cuts from the swords before it breaks. From a defensive point of view, you don't want to block with the staff. Instead you want to deflect then counterstrike. The deflections will do less damage to the staff. If you have to block with the staff, then you are probably overmatched by the swordsman.

[Pinzarn]

The reason Mat beat both Gawyn and Galad is because they both underestimated him, The simple country bumpkin with a stick he couldn't possibly beat us. This is reinforced by the story about Jearom and his loss to the farmer with a staff. Never underestimate your enemy.

 

I think many people are underestimating the role that Mat's luck played in the match. He NEEDED that coin to seed his purse so he could gamble for more. Do I think that Gawyn and Galad underestimated Mat? Yes, but I feel that this was the first instance of Mat's luck in general, and battle luck to be specific.

[SesameTree]

Well luck certainly had a lot to do with it, since it was techinically a bet.

Maybe he put staff at exactly right place to block, attacked from the angle they

didn't expect....

 

I would like to see how he would fare against them now, especially against Gavin.

[Maleshub]

I would like to see how he would fare against them now, especially against Gavin.

 

He did well against Couladin and against the gholam. So, Mat will probably destroy Gawyn or Galad with his ashendari if his loss of half the light doesn't hinder him (which I don't think it will).

[SesameTree]

Well there a lot of parallels between Odin from myths and Mat.

If I understood correctly Odin gained perfect aim with his spear (among other things) for one of his eyes, so we could see Mat get even stronger.

 

That fight was one of my favourite moments in the series btw.

[Balefire to da face!]

Well luck certainly had a lot to do with it, since it was techinically a bet.

Maybe he put staff at exactly right place to block, attacked from the angle they

didn't expect....

 

I would like to see how he would fare against them now, especially against Gavin.

 

Mat himself said that his luck did much better in circumstances dictated by random chance. Much less so for more structured contests. This was said in the context of he and Thom playing Stones, I believe, but I think it would apply to fighting, as well.

 

I am of the opinion that Mat's luck didn't factor in all that much. Or if it did, it was in the randomness in which the chance to make such a bet presented itself, not in the actual fight. Unless my memory is faulty, and there is clear mention of Galad slipping where he shouldn't have, or something.

 

Rand and Perrin had both won fights with longer odds then those which Mat faced against Galad and Gawyn. Rand defeated a blademaster at the end of TGH, and Perrin defeated a Fade at the beginning of TDR. I would qualify both as more challenging prospect then a half trained Galad. Call it ta'veren, or the old blood influence, aptitude with weapons, or just a narrative need to present them as bad asses. I really don't see any need to call on luck to explain why Mat beat them.

[Suttree]

Well luck certainly had a lot to do with it, since it was techinically a bet.

Maybe he put staff at exactly right place to block, attacked from the angle they

didn't expect....

 

I would like to see how he would fare against them now, especially against Gavin.

 

Mat himself said that his luck did much better in circumstances dictated by random chance. Much less so for more structured contests. This was said in the context of he and Thom playing Stones, I believe, but I think it would apply to fighting, as well.

 

I am of the opinion that Mat's luck didn't factor in all that much.

 

There are quite a few references to luck in that fight...

TDR

When he turned back, the quarterstaff in both hands before him, Gawyn and Galad were already waiting out where they had been practicing. I have to win. "Luck," he muttered. "Time to toss the dice."

 

TGH

Mat's legs chose that moment to tremble. Light, I can't weaken now. But he could feel it creeping back in, the wobbly feeling, the hunger as if he had not eaten for days. If I wait for him to come to me, I'll fall on my face. It was hard to keep his knees straight as he started forward. Luck, stay with me.

 

TGH

From the first blow, he knew that luck, or skill, or whatever had brought him this far, was still there.

[Balefire to da face!]

I just don't see anything overt like his scrambling of odds when playing dice, or him finding the house in Tear. And don't really see a need for luck to explain the fight.

 

The problem is that when we get down to the minute details of how a pebble on the ground effects footwork or the exact angle of a weapon deflection to examine Mat's luck, we are kind of reading things into the text that aren't there.

 

I think the quotes you provide just show a man who believes in his own luck. As we know that Mat did long before he ever left Emond's Field. And much like a placebo effect, a man who believes in his own luck can often make his own. For example, the third quote is the only one that even hints at something other then Mat's own belief in his luck. When Jordan wanted to show Mat's luck bending chance, he was more clear then what you guys are reading into the text, I think.

[TNine]

I just don't see anything overt like his scrambling of odds when playing dice, or him finding the house in Tear. And don't really see a need for luck to explain the fight.

 

The problem is that when we get down to the minute details of how a pebble on the ground effects footwork or the exact angle of a weapon deflection to examine Mat's luck, we are kind of reading things into the text that aren't there.

A fight has a load of random variables that will play into who comes out successful. Both competetitors have a vast array of choice they can make, and the answer to each one, unless they fight absolutely perfectly (and they won't), will be random.

 

Think of it like a game of soccer or baseball--skill plays a big part, but luck does too.

[Tensai0211]

The reason Mat beat both Gawyn and Galad is because they both underestimated him, The simple country bumpkin with a stick he couldn't possibly beat us. This is reinforced by the story about Jearom and his loss to the farmer with a staff. Never underestimate your enemy.

 

 

The staff is an extremely effective weapon in trained hands, it great advantage over the sword is its ability to control distance( what we call Maai in Japanese martial arts - basically distance and the time to cross it as well as angle and interval of attack) because it doesn't have a fixed grip the way a sword does.

 

Being underestimated led to the quick KO of Gawyn sure, but Galad was under no such illusion when Mat beat him.

 

It isn't until halfway through the fight that Galad starts to take him seriously, by that time Mat had disarmed him and KO'd Gawyn; that's a big hole he's got to dig himself out of. There is an obvious difference in mentality when the fight begins,

 

TDR

 

Gawyn's cough was obviously meant to swallow a laugh. Much too politely, he said, "You must be very good." Galad's face was frankly disbelieving.

 

They were overconfident and full of themselves and this was just with the idea of one on one with Mat, how much more sure of their victory would they be if its both of them at the same time. When Galad starts to take Mat seriously it was already too late and this was what i think Hammar was expecting, I wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be a pivotal event in their development as swordsmen a painful and embarrassing lesson in the dangers of overconfidence and underestimating your enemy at any time.

[kght22]

If RJ said this is what happened then there is no arguement, it is possible. Who are we to argue with the creators logic... ;)

i would have to agree with this, it doesn't really matter the reality of the situation, the only question is did you enjoy it, and did you enjoy the series. the reality is pretty meaningless in light of that. there are lots of things to argue about currently in the series that are real questions, but the fact is that mat beat both gawyn and galad at the same time in practice combat with a quarterstaff while they used swords is a fact, and is not something to be argued. it happened, why it happened is a slight question, but it is not something to get a good answer, it happened, plain and simple.

[Finnssss22]

The reason Mat beat both Gawyn and Galad is because they both underestimated him, The simple country bumpkin with a stick he couldn't possibly beat us. This is reinforced by the story about Jearom and his loss to the farmer with a staff. Never underestimate your enemy.

 

 

The staff is an extremely effective weapon in trained hands, it great advantage over the sword is its ability to control distance( what we call Maai in Japanese martial arts - basically distance and the time to cross it as well as angle and interval of attack) because it doesn't have a fixed grip the way a sword does.

 

Being underestimated led to the quick KO of Gawyn sure, but Galad was under no such illusion when Mat beat him.

 

It isn't until halfway through the fight that Galad starts to take him seriously, by that time Mat had disarmed him and KO'd Gawyn; that's a big hole he's got to dig himself out of. There is an obvious difference in mentality when the fight begins,

 

TDR

 

Gawyn's cough was obviously meant to swallow a laugh. Much too politely, he said, "You must be very good." Galad's face was frankly disbelieving.

 

They were overconfident and full of themselves and this was just with the idea of one on one with Mat, how much more sure of their victory would they be if its both of them at the same time. When Galad starts to take Mat seriously it was already too late and this was what i think Hammar was expecting, I wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be a pivotal event in their development as swordsmen a painful and embarrassing lesson in the dangers of overconfidence and underestimating your enemy at any time.

 

Naw man, after Galad rolls and comes up with his sword, the duel between him and Mat was reset. He was taking Mat 100% seriously now and it didn't matter.

Mat overwelmed him despite Galad "using every once of his skill to keep Mat's staff from him".

What I stated previously is correct and I see no other way of reading that scene.

[Suttree]

The reason Mat beat both Gawyn and Galad is because they both underestimated him, The simple country bumpkin with a stick he couldn't possibly beat us. This is reinforced by the story about Jearom and his loss to the farmer with a staff. Never underestimate your enemy.

 

 

The staff is an extremely effective weapon in trained hands, it great advantage over the sword is its ability to control distance( what we call Maai in Japanese martial arts - basically distance and the time to cross it as well as angle and interval of attack) because it doesn't have a fixed grip the way a sword does.

 

Being underestimated led to the quick KO of Gawyn sure, but Galad was under no such illusion when Mat beat him.

 

It isn't until halfway through the fight that Galad starts to take him seriously, by that time Mat had disarmed him and KO'd Gawyn; that's a big hole he's got to dig himself out of. There is an obvious difference in mentality when the fight begins,

 

TDR

 

Gawyn's cough was obviously meant to swallow a laugh. Much too politely, he said, "You must be very good." Galad's face was frankly disbelieving.

 

They were overconfident and full of themselves and this was just with the idea of one on one with Mat, how much more sure of their victory would they be if its both of them at the same time. When Galad starts to take Mat seriously it was already too late and this was what i think Hammar was expecting, I wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be a pivotal event in their development as swordsmen a painful and embarrassing lesson in the dangers of overconfidence and underestimating your enemy at any time.

 

Naw man, after Galad rolls and comes up with his sword, the duel between him and Mat was reset. He was taking Mat 100% seriously now and it didn't matter.

Mat overwelmed him despite Galad "using every once of his skill to keep Mat's staff from him".

What I stated previously is correct and I see no other way of reading that scene.

 

Finnsss has the right if it. Once Galad reset it was on and he gave his all.

[Shaidar]

Because fights in WoT-world aren't realistic.

 

If we're going down this route we might as well ask how any man no matter how skilled is able to kill multiple, heavily armored bear-men (Trollocs) in quick succession.

[Mr Ares]

Exactly, RJ even makes a point in the book to say Mat was the best quaterstaff fighter in the two rivers besides Mat's father. I thought it was cool that he also mentioned that Rand was the best archer in the Two Rivers, but that was only a side note.

Wrong on both counts:

TEotW' date='Ch1 - Tam is the best archer in Emond's Field.

TDR,Ch24 - Tam wins the Emond's Field quarterstaff competition if Abell Cauthon does not.[/quote']

In the chapter that Mat beats G&G, Mat states that his father is the best and Tam is a close second.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Any particular reason why you felt the need to dredge up such an old post?

 

Because fights in WoT-world aren't realistic.

 

If we're going down this route we might as well ask how any man no matter how skilled is able to kill multiple, heavily armored bear-men (Trollocs) in quick succession.

How? Easily.

[TNine]

Because fights in WoT-world aren't realistic.

 

If we're going down this route we might as well ask how any man no matter how skilled is able to kill multiple, heavily armored bear-men (Trollocs) in quick succession.

Or better yet, how the Aiel haven't been completely slaughtered already. An entire army of light infantry is not exactly threatening, no matter how well trained they are.

[Dagon Thyne]

There is a scene where Mat fights both Galad and Gawyn and wins. Is this practically possible? Lets look at the odds against Mat:

 

1) He has just been under coma (practically) for several days and has been wasting away for several months. He has just recovered from severe damage.

 

2) Gawyn killed Hammar and Coulin who were the Warder teachers. They were most likely very skilled. And yet Gawyn was able to kill them. Furthermore, Mat was able to beat Gawyn! I might point out that Hammar and Coulin were killed in Book 4 but this duel occured in book 3. But there isn't much of a time gap.

 

3) Galad was able to kill the Commander of the Whitecloaks, who has an excellent reputation as a blademaster.

 

So, is it even possible for Mat to win in these circumstances? And lets not forget the weapons they were using....

 

This was all before Mat got the memories so he's all on his own.

 

It could actually happen. I was watching a martial arts exhibition, and a man defeated three men at once. He was using a staff and they were using wooden training swords. Mat is described as being vewry good with a quarterstaff, so it is actually possibe for him to win, especially since both Gawyn and Galad were overconfident. Overconfidence more often than not, leads to letting once's guard down.