Semirhage - a dimwit?

[a great fantasy fan]

Hi. I am new here and this is my first post. I am an avid reader of the series (like you guys haven't seen one of those before) and I think that I can raise some fair points

 

Anyway, here is the chatline in a nutshell as i see it.

 

team 1, spearheaded by Bob T Dwarf, states that Semi was an over bearing, self confident fool who thought she was all that. Main points are that Rand has been "Lucky" quite a bit, that Semi, being a very powerful, devious, dastardly tourture master and political mastermind, should have seen the pattern and therefore really, truly is being an idiot

 

team 2, spearheaded in part by Mr Ares, states that Semi, like team 1 says, is a dastardly mastermind from an age that had much more technology, skill, and brains on average than the medival based 3rd age, so since she is smarter than most people of the AGE OF LEGENDS, she had no reason to believe that there would be a ter'angrial that didn't exist when she was unfortunately cut off from the rest of the world in the DO's prison. She had it covered. To the sharp eyed and intelligent Semi, the pattern of others interfiering in otherwise perfect plans was fairly well defined. She could see that really, the combined forces of the light and his ta'vern-ness had more influence behind her fellow Generals of the Dark's demises than the man himself. She practically had an entire continent in her nearly complete control. There was a slight knot in her plans and she had to replace her puppet with the one person she was confident that could pull it off. Herself. And she could have. Except for a small ter'angreal that she has heard of not one whisper of. Big coincidence.

 

I think that I tentavely believe team 2. It seems that, besides the detail i see it in, it was really how RJ meant to write it. He was not feeling well at the time and pressed by the need to finish. He was a little sloppy, so what?

 

Hope i did good.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ya did great.  Pretty good summation.

 

Can't agree with your conclusion, though.  A true criminal mastermind would have realized that Rand always beats the odds.  Always.

 

That makes facing him head-on very stupid.

 

So far, Graendal is the only one who seems to have figured that much out.

[Mcpatrick]

Ya did great.  Pretty good summation.

 

Can't agree with your conclusion, though.  A true criminal mastermind would have realized that Rand always beats the odds.  Always.

 

That makes facing him head-on very stupid.

 

So far, Graendal is the only one who seems to have figured that much out.

 

Anyone want to bet that Graendal gets herself collared, and helps heal Rands madness in AMoL?

 

 

[safwd]

Always read but dont often reply, but i think i must on this one.

 

Yes if all the forsaken would get together and put a whoopin on everyone this would be a done deal by now, but these guys dont like to share. We have seen it since early in the books, they dont like each other and they dont trust each other.

People have said before that the one with the most toys wins at the end but i dont even think that is the way these guys are thinking. They are thinking that the last one alive wins. They all want to be the right hand man to the DO so they dont want to help each other out, the others dying off benefits them.

And yes they are all probably stupid, even though they are intelligent. They come into this new world feeling like they are gods, so of course they underestimate everyone they encounter.

And here is the think with Semi. Pretty much all the other forsaken that have been killed have gone up against Rand in a straight up fight. Rand knew that he was going in fighting a Forsaken and still each time he was pretty much getting his butt kicked until something unplanned happened.

I wont go over it all again because it has been stated already but look at the deaths.

Aginor and Bath were the first two out (minus Balz of course) and they were feeling real buff. Bath gets himself killed by a tree and Aginor has no worry at all about a snot nosed kid.

Belal is cleaning house until (in his mind) a half trained Chit balefires him. Didnt see that coming.

Rahvin was so prepared that he killed most of Rands attack force instantly upon arrival. Little did he know that another half trained Chit would interupt and he would get balefired back to creation.

Sam again went right after him man to man, was winning and got hosed by an outside player.

Asmo was getting owned so a little different.

But all of them came right at Rand with him knowing he was fight a forsaken.

Semi on the other hand went sneaky. Give him a meeting that he has been looking for. Sure Rand thought it could be a trap but he was thinking of a normal trap, not a Forsaken trap, and he brought plenty to deal with a normal trap.

Semi again got foiled by something she didnt and probably couldnt forsee. It was a good plan.

And even though she didnt get what she wanted she managed to blind and maim the Dragon Reborn. Not too bad for a loss.

 

Semi didnt go at him that way, her plan was completely different.

[Muad Cheade]

Cheapshots or not ( and nobody but Rand was around to deal with Ba'alzy all three times ), the salient point is that nobody faces Rand and walks away.  If Rand himself doesn't take his antagonist out, someone or something else does.  Without fail.

 

So, how is it again that Semirhage could realistically believe that she would succeed?

 

She couldn't.  She was blinded by her own hubris and arrogant sense of entitlement.

 

That's what made him being defeated by the Seanchan so surprising and devastating to him.

 

You saying that what's the point of Semihrage fighting Rand since he has a pretty good track record isn't realistic. What would have happened if most of Europe tossed down their weapons because Napoleon (could also say Hitler) were dominating the continent and were virtually unbeaten. You have to fight for what you believe in even if the odds are long, which in Semihrage's case weren't really.

 

Safwd said pretty much what I was going to say. The Forsaken Rand has "defeated" usually fell due to outside forces that they had no control over.

[Builder]

I fear Semirhage is going to do some major sh!t when imprisoned.

[The Doctor]

It's pretty wild to suggest the remaining forsaken just give up because of their cohorts failures. 

she had a good plan, which probably would have worked minus cadsuane's ter'angreal, which was even less forseeable than all the previous unexpected interferances. 

[Gentled Ben]

Ya did great.  Pretty good summation.

 

Can't agree with your conclusion, though.  A true criminal mastermind would have realized that Rand always beats the odds.  Always.

 

That makes facing him head-on very stupid.

 

So far, Graendal is the only one who seems to have figured that much out.

But she didn't face him head on. Like Safwd pointed out, she was disguised, and he had no reason to believe (nor did he in fact, believe) that he would be facing one of the Forsaken. Had it not been for something that she could not have known existed (and let's be fair here, as Lanfear was an expert on the OP, a research scientist in the field, and yet she was surprised by the ter'angreal that Alivia was wearing, while Semirhage's expertise was in an entirely different field--if the OP scientist is shocked by the device, we can't fault the physician for not expecting it), she would have complete control of him right now.

[a great fantasy fan]

I feel a need to point out that if Semi acted "stupid" it was probably ego that did it. It pretty much goes like this. She is one of the best physitians who ever lived, assuming that the AOL is the height of technology of all ages, she is sealed in an age that city's are being Sieged and destroyed one by one, being destroyed left and right with the one power. There are hundreds of thousands (it says that ten thousand is a small army in that time, so at least hundreds of thousands) of regular troops running around killing each other with "shock lances" and AS, male and female, killing and ripping massive ammounts of the other army's enemies. The shadow is winning. LTT leads the hundred companions with ten thousand soldiers and cheapshots the Forsaken by sealing them in the bore. They wake up in an age where "armies" are hundreds of people hurling sticks and stabbing each other with knives. Barbaric, and nothing compared to what they are used to. They begin to revert control of the light's main bastions to them. Then this kid comes in and kills one or two of their number. Nothing to think much about. More for them. They were weak anyway. They continue about their buisness. The kid kills some more. Shows some power. Still nothing. He isn't trained. He had help most of the time. He kills a total of 6 of 13 of them, a couple of them balefired out of existance. He gains some sort of training from an idiot who got himself caught. Now it's a problem. Semi thinks "Ok, he's gonna need to make a truce with the Sehenchan sooner or later. That would be best if that didn't happen. Now how do i neutralize this foe and "Let the lord of chaos rule?" I got it! make an ambush out of it. With him captured by the possible allies, his army wouldn't dare make a treaty for them. All out war. Semi wins. Thats what she thinks. She gets it ready, gets a knot in her plan, and decides that it's too near the end of her master plan. She oils up her tourture rooms to convert him to the shadow and goes to get him. Then she gets cheapshoted by a ter'angreal she didn't know existed.

 

Just putting it into perspective

 

 

 

And I might as well point out that everyone seems to think that Rand defeated Asmo single handedly, but they were battling it out in Rhuiden (not sure if i spelled it right) for about a full day, then they collapsed, exhausted, unable to channel a spark, and resorted to pounding each other weakly until Lanfear stepped in, tired of watching them fight, and slapped a special shield on Asmo, giving victory to Rand.

[Gentled Ben]

Rand had essentially won; he had sole possession of the Choeden Kal, and also, Asmodean did not punch him.

[Kaznen]

Remember Rand has a BA sister in his entourage.  If Semi was put in a damane she could free her and all hell would break loose.

 

[Shard]

Remember Rand has a BA sister in his entourage.  If Semi was put in a damane she could free her and all hell would break loose.

 

 

Are you saying that if Semi was put into an A'dam that she could free Elza?

 

 

[Gentled Ben]

No, I think he means that Elza could free Semirhage.

[Shard]

Yeah I think that makes more sense, I'm not sure Elza want's freeing herself lol But she may want to free Semi...

[Gentled Ben]

She would at least consider it. Whether or not her duty to free a Chosen would override her Compulsion to serve rand is uncertain, though. I would assume that Semi gets loose though, as that would cause more tension in the story than if she stays leashed, is drained of useful knowledge and destroyed. I would not be surprised if she kills Cadsuane and causes untold grief in Rand's camp. Things are bound to get bleak before the end, right?

[Shard]

Yeah Semirahge loose is a bad thing alright. I don't think Caddy will die until Rand learns his Tears and Laughter thing. As much as I don't want to see Semi get out and wreck havoc I can't really discount it from happening. So I'm holding out for executions of Forsaken.

[a great fantasy fan]

Yeah Semirahge loose is a bad thing alright. I don't think Caddy will die until Rand learns his Tears and Laughter thing.

 

I think that that is truth

As much as I don't want to see Semi get out and wreck havoc I can't really discount it from happening. So I'm holding out for executions of Forsaken.

 

Meh. Not too sure. Most likely Rand will fight for her, and there will be an "accident" but i dont really think that there will be a formal execution...

 

She does have the greatest knowlage of healing out of all the characters in the books. Nynaeve is a prodegy, but in the height of technology, Semi was  one of the best healers. Now those who were ever even near her level are thousands of years dead. She definately will be able to teach them some things, even if they have to be careful of who they try it on the first time... And first they need to get the Master Torturer to crack...

 

That is something i definately want to see. The Queen of Torture, being presented with the art of mideval torture...

 

[Midean]

This is interesting, remember the Forsaken do not see Rand al thor, they see the dragon reborn, LTT, a badass reborn with the sole purpose of kicking their asses and like one previous poster stated, he has killed a bunch of forsaken already.

Semirhage must have something up her sleeve, she would not face rand after he has killed a number of forsaken already AND halted their repeated attempts to kill him.

No one is that stupid, let alone a forsaken, she absolutely must have had ulterior motives to facing him and being captured, she would not have looked at Rand as a novice as far as wielding the OP  is concerned purely because he has already killed some of the forsaken.

 

i sense Semirhage scheming!

[Mr Ares]

If Semi was put in a damane

Sounds...kinky.

 

Semirhage must have something up her sleeve.

No. She came up with a smart plan, which failed due to unforseeable circumstances.

[Luckers]

And that, too, bears on my point.  Arrogance and foolishness trumping intelligence and common sense.

 

Did she think Ba'alzamon had no "foolproof plan" at Tarwin's Gap?

Did she think that after loosing badly there that he didn't have an even more "foolproof plan" at Falme?

Did she think that after loosing both of those encounters he didn't have the "ultimate foolproof plan" at Tear?  Especially with Bel'al to act as his stalking horse?

Rahvin had all of Caemlyn trapped.  He had a whole gauntlet of traps preset for Rand.  Yet, Rand won again.

Then there's Sammael and his multi-layered defense-in-depth that also failed.

 

I wouldn't blame her for thinking that Lanfear died owing entirely to her own failings, but Semi failed to give any of the others Rand had bested any credit either.

 

That's not smart.  Nor is it sensible.  Rand, quite obviously, has Talents and Resources that cannot be predicted, nor planned around.  So, how could Semirhage have "every reason to expect her plan to work, and no reason to think it wouldn't."?

 

The simple answer, Bob, is 'with ease'. The longer answer is simple--yes Rand had shown himself to be formidable. He had defeated every Chosen to oppose him--not because of Talents beyond expectation, but because people underestimated him. Rand--whatever he is--is still a normal channeler and ta'veren. He is not god.He won against Ishamael because in his arrogance Ishamael was playing games trying to subvert him to the Dark, he won against Rhavin because Nynaeve involved herself. And yes, both Rhavin and Sammael exployed wardings and the like, but Rand did not overcome them because he had Talents Beyond The Predictable--he overcame them because he was an intelligent and skillful channeler. Thats an entirely predictable reality. Graendal even refers to that against Sammael.

 

But Semirhage had disguised herself in a way that due to thousands of years of accumulated knowledge should not have been impenetrable. She had a reason to expect Rand to come close (he arranged that meeting, remember) and she had a way of disabling and capturing him that he should not have been able to stop.

 

Now, having said that, I'd remind you that the reason that Rand escaped her trap was Nynaeve and Cadsuane's ter'angreal. Things which no one in either the Age of Legends nor the majority of the Third Age was considered possible.

 

So, I reiterate. How could Semirhage have every reason to think her plan would work, and no reason to think it wouldn't? With ease.

 

Cheapshots or not ( and nobody but Rand was around to deal with Ba'alzy all three times ), the salient point is that nobody faces Rand and walks away.  If Rand himself doesn't take his antagonist out, someone or something else does.  Without fail.

 

So, how is it again that Semirhage could realistically believe that she would succeed?

 

She couldn't.  She was blinded by her own hubris and arrogant sense of entitlement.

 

The majority of that is silly--others failed against Rand, and for a variety of reasons--methodology, circumstance, bad planning... so on and so forth. None of that impinges on Semirhage's planning. Rand won in none of those situations because of some innate 'Rand must win' law. The only thing that matters to whether Semirhage should have felt confident of her ability to succeed is the degree of her planning, and her perception of why others failed. She has more than answered both.

 

Nothing in the reasons for Rands previous successes was impossible. Improbable at times, yes, but not impossible. Or unpredictable. Within the scope of her plans she provided for the predictable. Even the improbable. What she couldn't predict was the impossible. The ter'angreal Cadsuane and Nynaeve had were unknown prior to the Breaking, and after. Semirhage had no reason whatsoever to expect it. It would be like you saying 'well, how could she have expected to succeed when Tamrylin had time travelled to that moment to save him. Such a thing is not impossible, but had it occurred it would have borne no implication on Semirhaged planning.

 

And you have no way around the simple fact that without those ter'angreal her plan would have worked precisely.

 

Can't agree with your conclusion, though.  A true criminal mastermind would have realized that Rand always beats the odds.  Always.

 

Does he? I think Rand would disagree. Besides thats stupid--a true criminal mastermind would not appreciate that Rand always one, she would appreciate why his opponets always lost. Thats why they get to be masterminds. Indeed, do not masterminds seek specifically those challenges? And indeed she would have been successful--nothing in Rand's arsenal would have saved him. She did her planning perfectly.

 

 

[Pandemonium]

Semirhage is not a dimwit.  She was arrogant enough to expect a victory.  However, there is no way in Shayol Ghul that Semi was dumb enough not to have a backup plan. 

 

Semi has been a prisoner a few times before and escaped after scaring the jeepers out of her captors.  She undoubtedly has plans in place in case she does get captured.  I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet.  Shaidar Haran has reigned in the Forsaken and been intimately involved with all their scheming.  There is no doubt that he is involved on this plan as well.  Semi has Shadar Haran who can help other friends on the inside.  Elza?  There are probably other darkfriends around Rand as well.  I wouldn't call Rand capturing Semi a complete victory.  She is going to do whatever she can to sow chaos and break down Rand.  She has already started the process talking about Rand's insanity.

 

Semirhage never lost, she just switched to plan B.  That is what some people here fail to realize.

 

The real Forsaken are going to step it up now.  I expect major problems from Graendal on the outside and major problems from Semirhage on the inside.  That is dangerous combination.  Demandred is also out there, somewhere, wreaking havoc.  The Asha'man under Taim are going to begin to undermine Rand and make him look really bad.  Arang'gar has plans to kill Rand, but I expect Arang'gar will be the first to die-- most likely played as Graendal's pawn.  Things are going to start going very wrong for Rand in the book.  He has had it way too easy so far with the Forsaken.

 

 

[Luckers]

I very much doubt Semirhage planned to be captured in either case--indeed, why plan to be captured only to immediately escape, as she did in the War of the Shadow.

 

Her plan implies no expectation that she would lose. Indeed she should have succeeded. Thus its unlikely that she planned for her own capture.

 

That being said she will no doubt immediately begin to plan for how to exploit her capture, much as she did the last time.

 

And yes, people have discussed this--within this thread, even.

[Pandemonium]

Luckers,

 

Semirhage expected victory.  She is not new to high-risk plans though.  She has already been captured twice before, so I highly disagree with your above statement.  Semi probably always has a plan in the back of her mind on how she could escape if things go sour.  She more than any other Forsaken knows that it is possible to get captured.

 

She calculated every small detail about how this thing would go down and then gave Rand instructions on approach.  She expected victory but she knows things do not always go as planned.  Just look at the rest of the Forsaken.  Her plans for escape may not be extensive but they are certainly there.  Like I said before, Semirhage did not create this plan by herself.  The Moridin/Shaidar Haran combo already said that the time for Forsaken to act on their own is over.  Semirhage was probably paid a visit by Shaidar Haran, and she likely extracted assurances of his help should she be captured.  That is enough to constitute a plan. 

 

Semirhage has help, and has someone to help orchestrate Plan B.  Semirhage has been acting in accordance with Shaidar Haran for a long-time now, probably much longer than the other Forsaken.  In my eyes it could have happened as late as the Cabriana torture, or as early as her installation as Anath.  Actually, Semirhage has been a valuable servant of the DO for a long time, even back in TSR she sent the Trollocs to the Stone to oppose Sammael's Trollocs. This whole conversation can not be framed from Semirhage's perspective alone since she is almost certainly not the only one involved in the planning.  Shaidar Haran likely planned much of what is going on. Semirhage seems to be the least independent of all the Forsaken save those that are mind-trapped. 

 

Also, I don't expect Semirhage to try to immediately escape.  An escape is certainly an option if she faces execution, but plan B probably involves infecting Rand from the inside, sowing dissent, and escaping once maximum damage has been inflicted.

 

 

 

[safwd]

I dont think that there is a plan B. Im quite sure Semi had escape plans in mind if things went sour but the problem was is she didnt have time to enable any of them.

Again i say her plan was a good one. She invites Rand to a meeting with Tuon that he actually was requesting. She sets the limits on who he can bring so that the channelers will even out. She actually gives him the advantage because i dont think he even counted as one of the channelers(I dont remember that for sure). So she brings enough power with her to take out the crowd after she delivers the surprise blow.

Unfortunetly duo to Cads and Nyns toys her plan blew up before it even was able to start. Im sure she had escape plans if things went wrong in the fight but she didnt even get a chance for the fight to start before things went wrong. And again she didnt plan for this because she didnt believe there was anything that could give them that advantage. Call that foolish if you want but she came from an age far more advanced so why should she think the new girls have such wonderful toys.

So before she can put any of her plan into motion it all goes to hell, and she is still able to get off a fireball that blows Rands hand off and blinds him. Not too shabby.

She doesnt seem that concerned because im sure she does figure she can escape, but i can also nearly guarentee that she is more nervous then she appears.

We will see what happens when they strap an adam on her and make her heal Rand. That will make her a little sick to her stomach.

 

I will say again. All the other fights with the Forsaken Rand went in knowing that he was going up against a forsaken, they came at him head on. Semi's plan was well thought out and tricky. Without the toys it probably would have worked.

[Pandemonium]

"Call that foolish if you want but she came from an age far more advanced so why should she think the new girls have such wonderful toys."

 

Semirhage would think the new girls have wonderful toys because she was at the battle of the Cleansing, which RJ confirmed. This is late into the story now.  A lot of the tricks and surprises have already happened.  Semirhage witnessed death, destruction, and miracles at the Battle of the Cleansing.  She witnessed her whole attack crew of Forsaken get held off by a few of these 'new girls.'  Semirhage had to have conceded that she could get captured.

 

Once again, I also need to bring up the point that Semirhage's plan most likely wasn't just Semirhage's plan.  Shaidar Haran was also highly likely to be involved.  Plan B is to have some be able to orchestrate all the darkfriends inside of Rand's camp to aid Semirhage when necessary.  Plan B is HIGHLY conceivable IMHO.  Semirhage has backup plans in place, and she didn't seem the least bit concerned that she had been captured.  Compare that to when Moghedien was captured.  Semirhage has control over this situation-- and Shaidar Haran has her back. 

 

Remember that Shaidar Haran likely watched the battle at the cleansing so he had all the intel necessary.  Lanfear reports back to Moridin, so she likely told Moridin about Alivia's special ter'angreal that stopped flows.  They may also have learned about the ter'angreal that told them where someone was channeling.  I think the bad guys had much more intel than everyone wants to give them credit for.

 

The results of Plan A for Shaidar Haran were to capture Rand and then turn him with a double circle of 13.

 

Plan B-- there was only a minor chance of this happening but this plan involves infecting Rand from the inside, undermining him, and freeing Semirhage when ready.  In reality, both plans are vital.

 

So, to wrap this up, I don't think all these new toys were a total surprise.  If they were, then Semirhage is a total dimwit.