Semirhage - a dimwit?

[Asmo]

Seriously.

 

She was obviously much stronger than the Seanchan damane she brought with her to capture Rand. She must have known Rand was even stronger than her. She must have known he must have had at least a few Asha'man expotentially stronger than your average Seanchan damane. She must have known he had a woman with strength on par with the Forsaken, and maybe a few others there as well. She must have known Rand had Callandor, the Choedan Kal and who-knew-what besides. So she went to ambush him like that, her only hope relying on the fact that she could disguise her holding the Power. In my view, even if Cadsuane and Nynaeve didn't have their ter'angreal, as long as Rand didn't have that crisis at that moment, Semirhage and the rest would still have been owned badly, unless they had linked beforehand - but is it even possible to link with leashed damane? As it is, Rand had it badly enough, and still Semirhage and the others found themselves largely overwhelmed. Moreover, if Rand and the others had even suspected and had linked beforehand...

 

I just can't envision Semirhage blundering so badly. She always seemed at least half-logical. So why?

 

The only thing I can imagine is that she intended to be captured so that she could work out some scheme of hers from within. I suppose she knew she was valuable enough not to be killed or stilled, but still, that was raw madness.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I just can't envision Semirhage blundering so badly.

 

Envision it.  She's as blindly arrogant as anyone in the series.

 

People only "know" what they believe.  They discount everything else.  Semi believes that she is superior to anyone else alive.  Light or Dark.  Since she's still alive, and especially since she'd just wiped out the entire Seanchan Imperial Court, she had ample justification for her belief.  Justification does not equal truth.

 

That's really what the whole war is about.  One group feels they're "justified by their superiority" in doing whatever they choose.  The other group disagrees.

[Guest Toad]

Regardless of her self-image, it did seem like a severely under-powered ambush.

[Bob T Dwarf]

To us, maybe.  But, not to Semirhage.

 

Equal numbers of channelers.  Rand got to bring one non-channeler to balance the non-channeling "Tuon."  So, Semi was already cheating.

 

Her channelers were all trained weapons.  His were "half-trained children who bind themselves like criminals."

 

She had 'mad skillz' and centuries of experience.  They were still playing with blocks.

 

No contest, really.  Lure them.  Lull them.  Net them.

 

So, to answer your question.  Yes, Semirhage is a dimwit.  She's a psychopath who chose to ally herself with a pack of other psychopaths behind the most psychopathic entity of all, the DO.  There's no way that can have a good outcome for anyone - even her.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

No contest, really.  Lure them.  Lull them.  Net them.

But by that stage a good number of Forsaken are dead. Rand has Callandor and the Chodean Kal. Just doesn't make sense that she'd be as relaxed and confident as you're suggesting.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Relaxed?  Who knows.

 

Confident, certainly.  She's been approached by someone seeking an alliance - or at least a truce.  Very young.  Utterly naive by her standards.  Very unlikely to come to a preliminary meeting loaded for bear.  Almost any outcome other than her death would serve her purpose.

 

If Rand comes in all fat, dumb, and happy, she captures him and everybody with him.

If he comes in hostile and suspicious, she gets to push him to war to the knife between the Seanchan and Rand.

If he comes in guns blazing, she gates away and loses a few meaningless sul'dam and damane, and again gets war to the knife.

 

Callandor or the CK aren't any realistic worry at this point.  Merely prizes to be taken by capturing Rand.

 

 

 

[Guest Toad]

Collar her like Moghedian.  Make her open gateways to bring in grain from Tear.  That would drive her insane.

[RAND AL THOR]

I agree with thininnkeeper.

 

The Forsaken initially discarded the present channelers as foolish beings with no skills. If they still think so, then they are all mad.

 

 

I doubt the STILL underestimate them though. This is book 11 after all.

 

 

The only thing I can imagine is that she intended to be captured so that she could work out some scheme of hers from within.

 

What a chilling thought. It seems possible though, considering how cool and calm she was when captured.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I agree with thininnkeeper.

 

The Forsaken initially discarded the present channelers as foolish beings with no skills. If they still think so, then they are all mad.

 

Why?  The present AS are foolish beings with no skills.

 

 

I doubt the STILL underestimate them though. This is book 11 after all.

 

They don't really underestimate them at all.  They simply fail to do anything meaningful to counter them.

 

 

The only thing I can imagine is that she intended to be captured so that she could work out some scheme of hers from within.

 

What a chilling thought. It seems possible though, considering how cool and calm she was when captured.

 

You guys keep trying to make the Forsaken into some kind of criminal masterminds.  Let's look at the facts.

 

Graendal waltzes into Shara, captures their Emperor and Empress leaving chaos and probably civil war in her wake.  Doesn't even break a nail.

Semirhage waltzes into Seandar, kills the entire Imperial Court, and waltzes out again leaving a definite multi-way civil war in her wake.  Ditto.

 

Yet, when it comes to Rand and the Westlands, they hide in the shadows, tiptoe around, and generally trip over their own shoelaces.  Huh ??? ???

 

If two of their weakest can do that kinda stuff elsewhere, what's stopping them here?  Nothing but stupidity.

 

Bel'al could have wasted the High Lords, firebombed Tear and left so much chaos behind nobody could have sorted it out for decades.

Ditto Sam in Illian.

Ditto Rahvin in Andor.

etc. etc.

 

A massed attack by all thirteen on the Tower would have dusted that in about ten minutes.

 

With the whole of the Westlands in flames and everybody at each other's throats, all they'd need to do is sit back, let Graendal's pets peel them some grapes and wait.

 

Not only don't any of them have any deep nefarious plans, none of them have the beginnings of the hint of an idea that may some day grow into a clue.

[RAND AL THOR]

A massed attack by all thirteen on the Tower would have dusted that in about ten minutes.

 

 

Couple that with a sudden rebellion by the Black Ajah and the Tower is gone..poof!

 

 

Maybe the Forsaken want something to rule? Several established themselves as rulers. Perhaps they hoped to remain so after Tarmon Gaidon? That is pretty silly of course since they would all then be trying to kill each other anyway and plunge Randland into perpetual war.

 

All that-assuming that the DO left them all alive.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Exactly.

 

No brains at all.  Not a one of them.

[Elgee]

Graendal waltzes into Shara, captures their Emperor and Empress leaving chaos and probably civil war in her wake.  Doesn't even break a nail.

Semirhage waltzes into Seandar, kills the entire Imperial Court, and waltzes out again leaving a definite multi-way civil war in her wake.  Ditto.

 

No brains at all.  Not a one of them.

 

so which is it ?

 

[Majsju]

 

Maybe the Forsaken want something to rule? Several established themselves as rulers. Perhaps they hoped to remain so after Tarmon Gaidon? That is pretty silly of course since they would all then be trying to kill each other anyway and plunge Randland into perpetual war.

 

All that-assuming that the DO left them all alive.

 

The main reason the forsaken positioned themselves the way they did, is that they wanted to establish powerbases according to the MO they had favoured during the War of Power (Sammael opting for a stroong physical defence, Moggy lurking in the shadows etc.)

This very much due to the belief that those with the largest worldy powerbase when the DO broke free would get the best rewards (Yup, capitalism was invented by the DO :D)

[Elgee]

Also, didn't the DO forbid them to kill Rand? Because he wants him turned to the Dark?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The point is that since they have the demonstrated ability to do the former, why aren't they doing it everywhere?  Nothing they'd face anywhere else is any more formidable than the security they've already demonstrated the ability to overcome.

 

It obviously aint broke, so why are they tinkering with a formula that works?

 

The only possible explanation - one validated by their choice of cause, and the entity to which they've chosen to give their undying loyalty - is that they're all simply too stupid to recognize what works and stick with it.

 

Eliminate all opponents who might be capable of effectively opposing them.  Free the DO.  Pass GO.  Collect $200.

 

It's a simple game if their beliefs are what the author claimed they are.  All chaos, all the time.  Other people are only playthings.  Fit only to serve in whatever way the Forsaken choose.  If the Forsaken choose.

 

But, since their beliefs are nonsense, their "strategy" is also nonsense.  Not one functioning brain cell among 'em.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Also, didn't the DO forbid them to kill Rand? Because he wants him turned to the Dark?

 

They don't even have to mess with Rand.  He's one man.  He can't do it all alone.  Eliminate all possible ability to oppose them everywhere else and Rand is powerless.  All he can do is die in a blaze of futility.

 

Or, join the de facto winners.

 

Heck, give Rand Mat, Perrin, the Horn and the Heroes and it still wouldn't be enough.  IF the bozos would just go methodically about the business of eliminating the other threats.

 

The whole thing has become increasingly Monty Pythonesque the longer it goes on.

 

Every time one of the Forsaken appears with yet another of their pathetic attempts to "be evil," I start visualizing John Cleese in his village idiot getup.

 

I so want to grab any of the Forsaken by their skinny little legs and start whacking a counter with them and yelling,

"THIS --IS--A--FORMER--PARROT!"

[Guest Dreadlord]

Personally I think Semirhage didnt go specifically to ambush Rand. I think the plan was to maintain the disguise throughout the meeting and make Rand think he had made the agreements he wanted with Tuon. Notice how Semirhage only attacked when Rand said her name; I think she only took the damane as a precaution in case it went wrong like it did, as well as to make her disguise more believable as heir to the Throne. I think Semirhage panicked when Rand named her but she was ready for something.

[Bob T Dwarf]

She went intending to capture him.

 

She had that box full of a'dam and male a'dam, remember?  It was a full-fledged ambush attempt.

[DemandredFO]

Bob, why do you read wheel of time if you ridicule it at every opportunity and refuse to see the underlying themes.  History is replete with examples of people who should be allies going their own seperate ways to the detriment of their cause.

Now to the point, Semiraghue did not care if see was captured.  In the AoL Semiraghue frightened her captors so badly they helped her escape.

[Guest Toad]

She went intending to capture him.

 

She had that box full of a'dam and male a'dam, remember?  It was a full-fledged ambush attempt.

 

Which again points out, why not come with more force than she did.  She may be a self-absorbed and cocky forsaken, but this is the dragon reborn she is trying to capture.  Maybe she is arrogant, but by far dumber than a box of rocks.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Very young.  Utterly naive by her standards.  Very unlikely to come to a preliminary meeting loaded for bear.   Almost any outcome other than her death would serve her purpose.

What?

 

Rand has already dealt with the many of the rulers of the world by that stage. He's tied the Cairhein (sp) to him, he's beaten all comers. Why on Earth would she expect him to waltz into a meeting with the leader of the Seanchean? They are, after all, the only real threat remaining apart from the Shadow.

If he comes in hostile and suspicious, she gets to push him to war to the knife between the Seanchan and Rand.

Maybe, but again, he obviously has skill with the Power, so why assume that he'd be unable to see her for who she is?

If he comes in guns blazing, she gates away and loses a few meaningless sul'dam and damane, and again gets war to the knife.

Again, the boy clearly has talent. He also has access to powerful angreal ... seems like a stupid mistake to make.

Callandor or the CK aren't any realistic worry at this point.  Merely prizes to be taken by capturing Rand.

Why? Rand could carry either of them around with him.

 

No, in my opinion it's one of two things. Either, Jordan has run of out ideas about how to deal with Semi. before the end of the series `(unlikely I think), or she has a plan. What that plan could be is beyond me. Relying on the fact that she's escaped captivity before seems like a bit a leap for me.

[Majsju]

I almost get the impression that some here thinks Semirhage was planning a wild west standoff out in the open. Quite unlikely.

 

If Cadsuane had not blown Smeirhages cover with her unexpected toys, they would most likely have walked inside the house, held actual negotiations for some time to lure Rand and his party into at least some kind of safe feeling, and then caught them unaware.

 

Instead, Semi and the damane was caught unaware, and even so they managed to cause a bit of hurt.

[crescendo]

Semi knew how many channelers where coming, she brought enough a'dam for them all, and once you snap the a'dam in place, game over, Dragon captured. The fact that she was caught unawares by Cadsuane's ter'angreal doesn't make her a fool, it makes her unlucky that one of the very few ter'angreal in the world that will point out a woman who's channeling (despite inverting and disguising the ability) happened to be at the meeting.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Semi knew how many channelers where coming, she brought enough a'dam for them all, and once you snap the a'dam in place, game over, Dragon captured. The fact that she was caught unawares by Cadsuane's ter'angreal doesn't make her a fool, it makes her unlucky that one of the very few ter'angreal in the world that will point out a woman who's channeling (despite inverting and disguising the ability) happened to be at the meeting.

 

bingo.

 

the sul'dam are [somehow...] INCREDIBLY quick with putting on the a'dam.  tuon and her bodyguard(forgot her name xD) managed to collar 2-3 AS in the wagon in a couple of seconds without the AS reacting.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Bob, why do you read wheel of time if you ridicule it at every opportunity and refuse to see the underlying themes.  History is replete with examples of people who should be allies going their own seperate ways to the detriment of their cause.

Now to the point, Semiraghue did not care if see was captured.  In the AoL Semiraghue frightened her captors so badly they helped her escape.

 

As you say, history is replete with examples of stupid evil.  Read William Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich if you want a good real-world example of one form it can take.  Even there, the Nazi military effort was brilliantly executed using every tool and technique at their command.  It was the political leadership that failed, ignoring reality in favor of ideology.  They got drunk on their own propaganda.

 

I ridicule it here because, for one, it's already been done to death in other fantasy fiction, for two, it isn't presented in a logically consistent manner.

 

The thirteen Forsaken are presented as among the most intelligent and accomplished individuals from an Age of Legendary Wonders.  Flawed.  Betrayed by their own ambition, greed, and pettiness into supporting an unjust cause, but smart and very capable and very dangerous. 

 

Reading through the first ten books, you can kinda excuse the Dark for most of their missteps because it seems they're working with understandable constraints.  They have to fight a war, and they're doing the best they can to make sure that war goes their way.  The only discordant note is Graendal's episode in Shara, but, that's barely a ripple.  Then we get to book 11 and find out that, nope, one... just one... of them can preemptively cripple an entire empire all by herself.  It turns out that given present realities, they don't have to fight a war at all.  A handful of preemptive strikes and there can be no effective opposition.  Any of the thirteen is effectively a demigod in the present world, able to singly do things that collectively were impossible in the AoL.

 

Yet, none of those thirteen very smart, very capable, very dangerous individuals realized that? ???

 

Beyond belief even for fantasy.