Why are the women in the WoT so overbearingly sexist?

[CQ-Reborn]

Hi guys, haven't posted in a while, but since I'm rereading the WoT (On the Lord of Chaos) So hi again =)

 

Why is that, with the few exceptions like Min, all the women in the WoT treat the men as if they are incapable of doing anything themselves?

The fact is, that while some of them (Nynaeve, Elayne, ect) have done important things (Recovering the Bowl of Winds, helping Rand cleanse Saidin) The most important stuff was done by the men. Rand dealt with mosts of the forsaken, cleansed the taint, established schools, and is more powerful than any female channeler alive.

 

I mean, look at the White Tower, they pride themselves on making all leaders of every nation bow down to them, is there a reason (other than the bullying factor of "I got the one power") that they deserve this respect? It seems the only way the Aes Sedai accomplish anything is through bullying everybody into submission (and the famous glare that makes no sense, I don't know a single person that weak willed that would listen to somebody because they gave them an evil eye :P)

 

I recognize that some are just strong willed, and I have no problem with that. But there is a difference between strong willed (Min, Aviendha, Moraine) and blindly arrogant (Nynaeve, Faile, half the Aes Sedai, Egwene, the list is endless)

 

I doubt you can go more than 2 chapters without a women (Most of the time the blindly arrogant ones) have the nerve to call the men foolish, wool-headed, big-headed, ect..

Like, Elayne blames Rand for getting pregnant, Egwene says Rand is becoming overly arrogant when he starts putting down laws that are FAIR (Removing the immunity from justice the lords had, fairer taxes, ect)

I don't see the men constantly calling women these nasty names (With no regard to contrary evidence) like the women, they are too busy getting things done.

 

 

/rant

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Short answer -

 

Because ( far too many ) men in our world are overbearingly sexist.

[Asmo]

Why is that, with the few exceptions like Min, all the women in the WoT treat the men as if they are incapable of doing anything themselves?

 

Epic lulz - Min's as bad as Nynaeve, almost, even if not so obviously at first.

 

At any rate, the women in WoT are not any worse in that aspect than the men are in our world.

[CQ-Reborn]

Yes, I understand that Robert Jordan was trying to make a point in the behavior of the women. But lets be realistic here, the people he is trying to make a point with are generally uneducated people, or from countries with medieval mindset (Look at pretty much anywhere in the Middle East, I sincerely doubt RJ had any readers from the areas where women are treated like property, not people.)

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

The women would not behave so if the men did not permit it.

 

Just look at the Village council and Women's Circle of Emon's Field. It is repeatedly remaked that no matter what the Village Council votes on, the W Circle's decision is the one that actually counts.

 

That makes the men more or less worthless and the purpose of their very existence is in question.

 

They should not be so tolerant.

 

It was suggested on this forum that men cowed back because it was the male channelers who had broken the world. This is most unlikely as most men are not channelers and do we see normal women taking the blame for mistakes made by Aes Sedai? No.

And furthermore the Breaking was very far back in history and people blaming themselved for something that happened 3000 yrs ago is just plain silly.

 

I have not yet been able to find a convincing theory about HOW the women gained the upper hand in a medieval-like era which is similar to the Earth. There must be some reason.

 

Or author's priviledges?

[Bob T Dwarf]

This kinda bears on the ji'e'toh thread, as well.

 

In virtually every situation, people, both male and female, do whatever the situation allows - not what is right or just.  See the Law of Supply and Demand.

 

Men are overbearingly sexist in our world because they're allowed to be.  No thinking person could really believe one tenth of the stuff men use to justify this.

 

All that happens when you go to Randland is that the trousers are replaced by dresses.

[RAND AL THOR]

All that happens when you go to Randland is that the trousers are replaced by dresses.

 

;D

 

Then what about Min? :D

[Bob T Dwarf]

What can I say - Min's just a cross-dresser.

 

Yeah, they've got those in Randland, too. :D

[DemandredFO]

I think that the imbalance started with the breaking and as time passed it became tradition and so forth.  3,000 years have passed and that tradition has become fact.  Now answer the sexist thing.  As many others have pointed out it is no different than how men treated women in our world.  Look at Joan of Arc she was burned at the stake for being sucessful.  I'll grant you things have changed somewhat but we need to go alot further.  Example, in the primary elections here(United States) I saw on the news that at one Clinton rally, it must have been a protester, held up a sign Iron My Shirt.  There are maaany examples of what further steps must be taken.

[aslansrevenge]

For the past 3000 years the most powerfull people have been women every King or Queen of every land has has an Aes Sedai advisor. This is bound to give any woman the feeling that they are beeter than men  Especially when it was men that broke the world.

[Igrift]

Ever since the breaking men have lost their power in this world (Wot).  RJ makes that evident any chance he gets.  Its just the scociety they live in, men had their chance and blew it.  Although not their fault...but still they broke the world and all.  Maybe now that the taint has been cleansed they will have power again.

[Jehaine]

Should be amusing to see though, given that over time, the women got at least as powerhungry as the men in 'our' medieval eras.

 

When looking at the basics of society, it's easy to see why the men have become the fighters. It takes a man five minutes to get a woman pregnant, it takes a woman nine montghs to bear a child and it takes a child fifteen years until he can see some combat action, and/or have kids of their own (remember, i'm talking medievals here, people got in arranged marriages at age 8 around that time).

 

Logically speaking, the men were considered the most expendable (hence the term: "Women and children first!"), so over time, society had started to depend on men for their protection. Within that protection, natural leaders evolved and emerged and ended up in control of things for the continued safety of the tribe/clan/city/state/country. Oh, they'd be advising at first, but it's only a small step between saying what should be done and actually ordering someone to. The 'Iron My Shirt' protestor Demandred mentioned would fit into the category of people in power not wanting to give it up, much like the Aes Sedai aren't looking forward to advise kings alongside the Black Tower, actually being forced to compete over what they've taken for granted.

 

In Randland however, we have something our own society did not. Channelers. Because of three thousand years of taint and male channelers going mad, people started to rely on Aes Sedai to protect them from male channelers and the occasional false Dragon. People look to them to guard against something they have no hope to fight on their own, which gets the Aes Sedai in a position to 'pull the strings' in a country... Sound familiar?

 

Same story, different path.

 

The only difference is they don't do it openly, but rule through an existing monarch while making them think they're running things. Even Hawkwing trusted the words of his advisors, and in the end, Ishi ended up calling the shots. It's a small step between that and open matriarchy, but in my eyes a deliberate one from the WT, since it'd keep the power in the hands of the WT itself as advisors could always be recalled and replaced by another.

[Snowy Dawn]

``Egwene says Rand is becoming overly arrogant when he starts putting down laws that are FAIR (Removing the immunity from justice the lords had, fairer taxes, ect)''

 

Where did you get that idea? Egwene does indeed think that Rand has become arrogant, but it seems very unlikely that Rand following the advice he got from Moiraine and Elayne about governing, the which led in part to those changes in the laws in Tear and Cairhien, would be the cause of Egwene thinking that about Rand. (His upbringing in the mostly egalitarian society of the Two Rivers would be the other influence on him that led to his changes in the laws. Perhaps also---in the case of Cairhien---his time spent amongst the Aiel.)

 

[crescendo]

Look at Joan of Arc she was burned at the stake for being sucessful.

No, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake because she rallied the French against the British conquerers, not because she was successful.

[Mr Ares]

It takes a man five minutes to get a woman pregnant

Only if he's rushing.

 

No, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake because she rallied the French against the British conquerers, not because she was successful.

English, not British.

 

For the past 3000 years the most powerful people have been women. Every King or Queen of every land has has an Aes Sedai advisor. This is bound to give any woman the feeling that they are beeter than men. Especially when it was men that broke the world.

AS advisors are common, but not universal. For example, Tear and Amadicia are both without advisors during the series, Hawkwing was almost certainly not taking advice from AS when he was fighting them (it would be amusing if he was - "you don't want to lay siege to Tar Valon like that, you've left the harbours wide open"). Also, how does having the power to advise (with no guarantee that your advice would be listened to) give you more power than the person with the power to act? AS says to do something, doesn't mean the ruler in question will do a damn thing about it.

[runner1]

Hi guys, haven't posted in a while, but since I'm rereading the WoT (On the Lord of Chaos) So hi again =)

 

Why is that, with the few exceptions like Min, all the women in the WoT treat the men as if they are incapable of doing anything themselves?

The fact is, that while some of them (Nynaeve, Elayne, ect) have done important things (Recovering the Bowl of Winds, helping Rand cleanse Saidin) The most important stuff was done by the men. Rand dealt with mosts of the forsaken, cleansed the taint, established schools, and is more powerful than any female channeler alive.

 

I mean, look at the White Tower, they pride themselves on making all leaders of every nation bow down to them, is there a reason (other than the bullying factor of "I got the one power") that they deserve this respect? It seems the only way the Aes Sedai accomplish anything is through bullying everybody into submission (and the famous glare that makes no sense, I don't know a single person that weak willed that would listen to somebody because they gave them an evil eye :P)

 

I recognize that some are just strong willed, and I have no problem with that. But there is a difference between strong willed (Min, Aviendha, Moraine) and blindly arrogant (Nynaeve, Faile, half the Aes Sedai, Egwene, the list is endless)

 

I doubt you can go more than 2 chapters without a women (Most of the time the blindly arrogant ones) have the nerve to call the men foolish, wool-headed, big-headed, ect..

Like, Elayne blames Rand for getting pregnant, Egwene says Rand is becoming overly arrogant when he starts putting down laws that are FAIR (Removing the immunity from justice the lords had, fairer taxes, ect)

I don't see the men constantly calling women these nasty names (With no regard to contrary evidence) like the women, they are too busy getting things done.

 

 

/rant

 

 

Being a woman, it's a refreshing change to see women having a big role in a fantasy series and so when I first started reading the Wheel of Time books I liked it a lot.haha.

I love how the guys (Mat, Perrin) are unsure about the women and feel like they need to step on tip toe or else get their head bit off, it's so funny to read. ;D

 

Anyways, like others have noted, I can see how the power seemed to shift to give women more power than men and the men meekly taking it.

 

After the Breaking of the World, male channelers were nonexistent except for the occasional man that gets found and hunted down by the Red Ajah.

The female Aes Sedai were pretty much protecting the world against the threat of the mad male channelers, despite the fear, hatred, or resentment directed toward them by the population everyone understands that although they don't have to like it.

 

Of course, now that there are male channelers again, things will probably balance out again like it should be.

The women channelers won't be able to be as arrogant anymore now that there will be male channelers to counter their power/influence over everyone. 

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's a truism that nobody ever cedes power without a fight.  It's a very rare individual ( and never any power bloc ) who ever steps down off their high-horse willingly.

 

Struggle, strife, probably outright warfare would be waged by the White Tower before there was ever any equitable sharing of power.

 

We've had eleven books of people who barely have sense enough to come in out of the rain.  Expecting any of them to suddenly exhibit the wisdom of Solomon is a bit much.

 

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

I refuse to accept that the reason why women seem to be dominant is because men broke the world.

 

Madness.

 

It happened 3000 yrs ago. And, where have we EVER seen a woman call down a guy by saying "You people broke the world so shut up and do as you're told!"

 

Such an attitude is not present anywhere. The women generally see the men as weak/mentally challenged/dumb/brainless but they do not ever behave as I stated above.

[Jehaine]

No, the reason why channelers are found in positions of power is because they can channel and therefore have quite a bit more power at their disposal than most army regiments. They also have more than a fair share of political influence in the world because they're the only ones that can stand against another channeler, so people generally think twice before making an enemy out of them. Tear and Amador have no Aes Sedai advisors, this is true, but Tairens ship a girl that can channel to the WT as soon as they come across them, so even though they have no advisors they are however careful not to provoke them.

 

Amadicia is the exception, but with the Whitecloaks effectively ruling the place it is understandable. If the Whitecloaks were to disband, it wouldn't be long before the first Aes Sedai started showing up again there.

 

Having said all that, looking at the Books it is clear that the Aes Sedai have a lot of (political) power. However, the Madness has caused there to be no male Aes Sedai taking much the same positions, effectively creating a female only political power in Randland.

 

So, while the female dominance cannot be blamed on the men directly, it is a simple side effect of the Madness removing the male counterpart from the equation, even strengthening the female part as they are the only ones that can take down a channeler taken by the Madness.

 

Blame the Dark One. Had saidin not been tainted, LTT would have been seen as the savior of Mankind, and possibly shifted the balance in favor of the male channelers, as they were the only ones present during the Sealing. We would have ended up with male dominance in the Third Age, i'm sure of it.

 

But, we didn't. Saidin was tainted, the male Aes Sedai died and the females were, for all practical purposes, the only channelers remaining.

[RAND AL THOR]

For all practical purposes, AS are very distant from everyday people.

 

Take the Two Rivers, did an AS ever visit before Moiraine? Maybe, but I don't think so. And yet the men-are-dumb law very strong there.

 

Political power, channeling may influence the guys higher up but can it influence everyday farmers/fishermen/shopkeepers etc....?

[DuDZiK]

Why is it that, in the real world, men have been the more dominant sex throughout history?

 

I would say that it stems from the fact that generally men have more physical power to back up their ambitions. Usually, if a man was a great warrior he could become powerful. And let's face it, even in todays world if someone who looks physically threatening tells you to do something, you will be more inclined to do as they say than if they are not. Same thing applies to any sort of power in general. If that person was extremely wealthy, or was a CEO in the business you are employed in, or a powerful politician, it will register in the back of a persons mind and will make them more likely to obey a command.

 

Now apply this to the Wheel of Time. The men might still have that physical strength but the women have them one better. Their ability to channel where the men can't (and if they do society turns on them) gives THEM the edge. All power must be backed up by some sort of threat in order for it to be effective, and the One Power is that threat.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As RAND points out, the Two Rivers hasn't seen an AS in living memory.

 

Yet, women still hold the whip-hand there.  That's like one kid on the playground trying to threaten another kid with his big brother - the one who's off in college a thousand miles away.  The threat of a big, mean, all powerful Aes Sedai who will "whoop your tail if'n you don't do exactly as I say," is too hollow to hold any dread.

 

Women rule because the author wanted them to.  Whether he put local conditions in place to support that premise or not.

[Swigaro]

Bob is correct.  The bottom line is, that is the way RJ wanted it.  Frankly, it has never bothered me.  I simply figured that while much of the common folk of the world had no direct experience with Aes Sedai or male channelers, for that matter, the nature of Aes Sedai and the one power are basically common knowledge.  Men may have broken the world 3000 years ago, true, but more importantly, since then, as the ability to channel springs up randomly, any man may spontaneously begin channeling and become destructive and insane.  In all likelihood that very thing happened just often enough over the last 3000 years of Randlands history that the very matriarchal leaning of the story became an institution.  Of course woman hold places of authority, men, because of the taint and the (albeit slim) chance of being a channeler, are simply not trustworthy.

[runner1]

Bob is correct.  The bottom line is, that is the way RJ wanted it.  Frankly, it has never bothered me.  I simply figured that while much of the common folk of the world had no direct experience with Aes Sedai or male channelers, for that matter, the nature of Aes Sedai and the one power are basically common knowledge.  Men may have broken the world 3000 years ago, true, but more importantly, since then, as the ability to channel springs up randomly, any man may spontaneously begin channeling and become destructive and insane.  In all likelihood that very thing happened just often enough over the last 3000 years of Randlands history that the very matriarchal leaning of the story became an institution.  Of course woman hold places of authority, men, because of the taint and the (albeit slim) chance of being a channeler, are simply not trustworthy.

 

Yah, what you said. ;D

I like that women have more authority and power than the men.

It's about time! (even if it IS only a fictional book world.LOL). ;) :D

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

(Look at pretty much anywhere in the Middle East, I sincerely doubt RJ had any readers from the areas where women are treated like property, not people.)

LOL LOL LOL

 

Oh stop, please! Get The Wheel of Time translated into Arabic and then talk about people reading it in The Middle East! I wouldn't expect you to read it in Swahili!

 

And actually, I've managed to turn a good few friends on to WOT. Men and women.

 

I must remember to tell my wife that she's treated like property... Not sure that'll go down to well. I think they missed teaching her that when she got her 3 degrees. (I'm a Brit living in Beirut and married to a Lebanese.)

 

As for the topic, well, it's RJ making a point.