Recycled Bad Guys

[RAND AL THOR]

"The Grave is no bar to my call" is the enscription on the Horn of Valere...

 

But the Forsaken are not tied to the horn.  And the horn does not bring the heroes back to life - weren't they still wraith-like?  Different scenario from a Forsaken that was killed and put in a new body.

 

No Toad, this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Dreadlord has repeatedly referred to 'the grave is no bar to my call' being linked to the DO. Majsju pointed out that actually it is the inscription on the Horn.

 

That statement has nothing to do with the Dark One.

 

Perhaps Dreadlord was thinking of another name of the DO: Lord of the Grave?

[Bob T Dwarf]

QUOTE

Exactly! Osan'gar got what he deserved for his masquerading! yayaya!

UNQUOTE

 

I just wish Rand had found out who he was before that happened.

 

YES!

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Perhaps Dreadlord was thinking of another name of the DO: Lord of the Grave?

UNQUOTE

 

Oh dear, looks like I was getting mixed up then. Its been a while since I read the books hehe. I still think there was plenty of foreshadowing that the Dark One could reincarnate though

[RAND AL THOR]

Its been a while since I read the books hehe.

 

Re-read, re-read and more re-read!

[Leopoled Boothe]

Just so you know, there are possible SPOILERS in this reply!!!!

 

 

 

I want to start by saying that I am not a big fan of resurection as a plot device.  However, I am willing to accept it in WOT because RJ has put some very strict limitations on the DO's ability to resurect his followers.  First off RJ has stated that the DO has a very short window of opportunity in which to capture the soul of the departed and also must have a "sutable body" in whict to place it (we don't know exactly what makes a "sutable body" but it does imply further limitations).  Furthermore, there are certain methods of killing that can rob the DO of even that short window of opportunity.  So for the DO resurection is more of an oportunistic move that something that he has firm controle over.  Accordingly RJ did not use the resurection device excesively.  Ishy and Lanfear are the main baddies so they deserve to have a few tricks up their sleeve, and the whole Aran'gar phenomonon is just cool.  That leaves Osan'gar as the only excessive resurection but RJ took care of that (and no I don't think he will be back for round three).

 

There was plenty of foreshadowing that the Dark One could bring people back from the dead. In EotW prologue Elan Morin aka Ishamael told Lews Therin the Dark One  could bring Ilyena back from the dead. Ba'alzamon continuously taunted Rand about serving in life or after death, and one of the Dark Ones sayings is the grave is no bar to my call. I pretty much established in the prologue of Eye of the World that the Dark One could bring back the dead, and since it was so early  I accepted straightaway that death isnt always final in this story. I think RJ did it better than in most cases I have read of in other books

 

Yes, but hadn't Ilyena been dead for some time at that point?  Remember the DO has a limited window of opportuntiy to bring back the dead and I would assume that in Ilyena's case that window had passed.  RJ once said that Ishameal was "a lying liar that lies" so I'm guessing that his promise to bring Ilyena back was just one of those lies.

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, but hadn't Ilyena been dead for some time at that point?  Remember the DO has a limited window of opportuntiy to bring back the dead and I would assume that in Ilyena's case that window had passed.  RJ once said that Ishameal was "a lying liar that lies" so I'm guessing that his promise to bring Ilyena back was just one of those lies. 

 

And, a rather obvious one.  Probably used so that we would wonder what else Ishy was lying about.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Yes, but hadn't Ilyena been dead for some time at that point?

UNQUOTE

 

Well we see her corpse through Lews Therins eyes, and although he was mad I very much doubt she had been dead for that long, I assumed it was the same day, maybe less than a few hours before it starts. Judging by how long Balthamel, Aginor and Lanfear were out for, I am guessing Ilyena was way within the time window. Its only when balefire is involved that the Dark One has a very limited time

[Bob T Dwarf]

All Moiraine can manage is a few seconds worth of balefire, but that seems to have been enough to preclude bringing back Bel'al.  So, the DO's window is rather short, indeed.

 

... The dead lay everywhere, men and women and children, struck down in attempted flight by the lightnings that had flashed down every corridor, or seized by the fires that had stalked them, or sunken into stone of the palace, the stones that had flowed and sought, almost alive, before stillness came again.

 

Ordinarily it takes enormous heat to liquify stone to a flowing state.  And, once stone has been heated to that degree it takes a long time to cool and re-solidify.  The DO is sealed away, so how much freedom to act does it have?  Even if, somehow the window of opportunity were still open?

[BrainFireBob]

Actually, Bob, there's zero evidence Moiraine managed enough to permanently destroy Be'lal.

 

We have no statement he's gone, we have no in-text reason to suppose him gone, and we do have an in-text potential candidate for a reincarnated Be'lal- Taim.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've always wondered about Bel'al, myself, but...

 

IF he's anybody ( and Taim might be a good candidate )  why hasn't he made any of the scout troop meetings?  It should have been his turn to bring snacks at least once by now.

 

The Cleansing was an all hands fire drill, and Mesaana got badly abused for not showing up.  No mention of Bel'al ( in any persona ), and no mention of any consequences for not being there.  And, they definitely called in all of the first team ( except for Moridin ) for that little fiasco.

 

I haven't included him in my two who seem least likely to reappear just because I too am not 100% sure he's gone for good, but we really don't have any evidence to say he isn't.

[RAND AL THOR]

Yes I agree. If Be'lal were alive then he would have been there at at least one meeting.

 

Unless the DO has forbidden him to reveal himself to the others, and I consider that unlikely.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Actually, Bob, there's zero evidence Moiraine managed enough to permanently destroy Be'lal.

 

We have no statement he's gone, we have no in-text reason to suppose him gone, and we do have an in-text potential candidate for a reincarnated Be'lal- Taim.

 

Another intersting point is that in the Prolouge to "Lord of Chaos" in his conversation with Demandred the DO states that Asmodean has "died the final death" and expresses his regret at being unable to resurect Rhavin.  He makes not mention of the other fallen Forsaken which at that point included Aginor, Balthemal, Ishameal, Lanfear and Be'lal.  So far four the five unmentioned Forsaken have resurfaced.  Could be a hint that Be'lal will follow suit.

[Bob T Dwarf]

On second thought, Taim doesn't seem like a good candidate.

 

Bel'al was a skilled swordsman.  Taim disdains anything to do with the sword.  Now, that might be a good "cover" tactic, but it seems too much out of character for Bel'al.  Be kinda like Sam hiding his scar.  None of those guys possess an ego that would permit them to walk that small.

[RAND AL THOR]

Actually, Bob, there's zero evidence Moiraine managed enough to permanently destroy Be'lal.

 

We have no statement he's gone, we have no in-text reason to suppose him gone, and we do have an in-text potential candidate for a reincarnated Be'lal- Taim.

 

Another intersting point is that in the Prolouge to "Lord of Chaos" in his conversation with Demandred the DO states that Asmodean has "died the final death" and expresses his regret at being unable to resurect Rhavin.  He makes not mention of the other fallen Forsaken which at that point included Aginor, Balthemal, Ishameal, Lanfear and Be'lal.  So far four the five unmentioned Forsaken have resurfaced.  Could be a hint that Be'lal will follow suit.

 

I would suggest that Asmo and Rhavin had just recently been killed when that talk with the DO occured so the DO mentioned only them.

[BrainFireBob]

Swords had failed Be'lal. Rand was now a better swordsman.

 

It would fit Forsaken MO to dismiss what they aren't the best at.

 

Be'lal's an option for Taim. My point is, we can't assume Moiraine was strong enough to shove someone outside the DO's window.

 

Of course, Moiraine has an angreal, and her unaided flow might only remove a few seconds, but the angreal flow might remove more. Or maybe she needs an angreal to manage it at all.

[Cocaloch]

At the least RJ did a far better job than Herbert with the resserections.

[Mr Ares]

Swords had failed Be'lal. Rand was now a better swordsman.

Be'lal was winning the swordfight. Then he got distracted and balefired. How did swords fail him? He took the time to talk, allowing Moiraine to kill him, so if anything failed him it was words. And what evidence do you have that Rand is now a better swordsman than Be'lal, or that Be'lal would know such a thing. The only time they fought, Be'lal was winning. Also, Taim's methodology is so unlike Be'lal's that any suggestion that they are the same is pure fantasy.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Leave Taim alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is himself, not anybody in disguise, just a male channeler who went over to the Shadow and has been taught by the Forsaken

[Kaznen]

Even if Moraine's BF was half a second back, Be'lal was "still in hell before the Devil knew he was dead."

 

Think of a door, once a soul is through a door, the DO can't get them.  And he would have just missed Be'lal.

 

Besides, if he was around we would have heard something over the last 8 books.

[Mr Ares]

Even if Moraine's BF was half a second back, Be'lal was "still in hell before the Devil knew he was dead."

 

Think of a door, once a soul is through a door, the DO can't get them.  And he would have just missed Be'lal.

Do you mind sharing with the rest of us whatever source it was read that lets you know with such supreme accuracy how long Shai'tan's window to get His hands on souls is? The rest of us just have this to go on:

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

Certainly the bolded part indicates that you just made it up. The very problem with that statement is how small is very small? Does Moiriane's "few seconds" put Be'lal out of reach or not? That is precisely why the argument persists.

[Luckers]

The more important reality is that whether or not Moiraine's balefire qualifies as 'very small', Be'lal is not Taim. Their very natures are different--beyond swords, Taim's every action has been blunt--the grey man, the attack on the sun palace, the attack on Demira, the attack on the manor at Tear, the manifestation and organisation of the darkfriend Asha'men... his palace.

 

Be'lal, the netweaver, is a subtle plotter. Taim is not. End of game, sorry kids, there's only so far you go in changing your nature in order to disguise yourself--it does not include hamstringing your every plot by acting, as Be'lal would see it, like an idiot. Taim is not Be'lal.

[Majsju]

Tam: He doesnt have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

 

Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the bore is best perceived, the bore doesnt really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, thats, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Belal, (names someone else),

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9921/t/Dragon-Con-Book-Signing-Reports.html

[DemandredFO]

Putting aside my belief that Be'lal is Taim for a moment.  Why would RJ add the 'unless the balefire is very small' and in tDR it just so happens that someone uses a very small amount of Balefire?

[Leopoled Boothe]

I agree with all of those who say that Taim is not Be'lal.  I firmly believe that Taim is just Taim if for no other reason than that he is such a great character in his own right that it would be disapointing if he turned out to be someone else.  None the less, I've not completely dismissed the possibility of Be'lal returning though I am begining to seriously doubt that he will because there really are no candidates; no obvious ones anyway.  Having him show up in the last book as some random character that we never met before would be kind of lame.  Honestly, I think it would be best for all involved if Be'lal just stays dead.

[Guest Toad]

Well, we have, what, a year and a half to figure it all out.

 

Personally, I have a hard enough time keeping track of the resurrections that we're all fairly sure of.  From other threads it appears that the Dark One has plenty of other options for bad@$$ surprises and such.  I'd rather deal with those than another reload...