Teaching the Seafolk...BAH!!!!!!!!

[bjclinton]

Throughout the WoT, we have seen AS make the truth and also promises dance on its head and control just about any situation that they're thrust into. That being said, there is one thing that drives me a little nuts and its the way they allow themselves to be treated by the Seafolk based on their bargain of having to teach them.

 

The Seafolk walk all over the AS, and the AS allow it. I cannot believe that the AS haven't found a way to control the teaching better than they have....instead, they're almost completely controlled in the form of instruction, the method of instruction, the delivery, the content, the pace at which they teach, etc. This is the perfect opportunity to have the upper-hand in what was a poor bargaining agreement yet they haven't taken advantage of it yet. Take control AS....teach them, but refuse to adhere to another's preference of "curriculum," pace, etc. None of those details were part of the bargain, yet they allow themselves to be trampled.

 

I'd love to hear other thoughts on why this is- I have a few of my own, but lets hear yours!

[CUBAREY]

Take control AS....teach them, but refuse to adhere to another's preference of "curriculum," pace, etc. None of those details were part of the bargain, yet they allow themselves to be trampled.

 

 

You have one (usually of middling power) AS teaching a group (10 or more) of Seafarers. Moreover, under Seafarer Custom teachers are deemed to be the second to lowest wrung on their social higherarchy. Exactly how would a AS refuse to teach? Is she going to simply stop teaching (thus breaking the bargain), or is she going to debate the intricacies of what was agreed to with 10 or more channelers who would take it as an insult and teach her her place.

 

The Seafarers will be lowered a few pegs but I think it will be by Logain an Rand (Logain has already started by telling them to mourn for their dead islanders but to do so on the march to TG).

[DemandredFO]

See, I think it all comes down to strength in the power.  On average I think the seafolk are more powerful than AS, I mean they send ones to the tower that aren't to give a false impression.  Logain would be a good example because he is strong but that is it whereas Rand and Mat have taveren going for them.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yeah.  Much as I generally dislike the AS, and consider them utter nincompoops, the Sea Folk are an order of magnitude worse.

 

AS behavior isn't that hard to understand though.  They operate throughout their entire lives within a hierarchy of bullies and bullidom ( I hearby declare that to be a word, even though you won't find it in any dictionary ).  They've been conditioned throughout their entire existence as Aes Sedai to jump whenever anybody that acts strong and authoritative says, "Toad."

 

They all try to pretend that they're lions, but they're all really mice.

[Luckers]

Some of them anyway. Verin pretends to be a mice, but is really a Lion.

 

Frankly I don't see why the Aes Sedai didn't simply pull back until they had promises that they would be treated with respect and honour whilst they taught. Freely willing to fulfil the bargain, but no where was degredation a part of that bargain--more than grounds for a seperate political organisation to hold back on their side of the bargain.

 

Frankly though the Sea Folk revolt me.

[Jambo]

Luckers is correct. It was never really specified when they would teach them, just that they would. You'd think the Aes Sedai would've been able to see and use a loophole as obvious as that.

 

I would really love to see Cadsuane deal with the Sea Folk though; the battle of wills there would be fun to see and she's probably the one Aes Sedai who wouldn't allow herself to be bullied.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We do get to see that.

 

It's why she no longer 'deals' with them.  She's afraid she'll give herself apoplexy from forcing herself not to start killing them.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Some of them anyway. Verin pretends to be a mice, but is really a Lion.

 

Frankly I don't see why the Aes Sedai didn't simply pull back until they had promises that they would be treated with respect and honour whilst they taught. Freely willing to fulfil the bargain, but no where was degredation a part of that bargain--more than grounds for a seperate political organisation to hold back on their side of the bargain.

 

Frankly though the Sea Folk revolt me.

 

Good point.

 

Sadly, we see a lot of that though.  And everywhere.

 

The whole of Randland is a sea of abuse and abusive people.  Everywhere we are taken we find those in authority only too willing to abuse that power and influence.  And everywhere we go, everybody treats that abuse as normal, customary, expected, and most disturbing of all - right.

 

Oh, sure, when it happens to them they get all internally outraged - but - none of them ever puts a stop to it ??? ??? ???

 

The Sea Folk are just the most revolting of an entirely revolting situation.

 

And... these are the good guys :o ??? :o

The folks I'm supposed to root for :o ::) ??? ??? ::) :o

[billoumm7]

AS cant use the power as a weapon... but what about disipline? the SF could use it alot...

[bjclinton]

i'm glad i'm not alone in my frustration over this  ;D

 

I also agree that the right move would have been to demand respect...and where absent, take matters into their own hand.

 

For example, if I were Nynaeve, I would corner Zaida and let her know that anything that is done to her during a training session will be done two-fold to her once she is able to get her alone....and then proceed to hang her with air by her ankles and bludgeon her  ;)

 

i suspect that even if Nynaeve got twice that during the next training session, yet continued to pass twice the punishment along, it would eventually make a point.... :-\

 

....filthy fish mongering, land-dwelling, sand-walking SeaFolk!!!

[CUBAREY]

I also agree that the right move would have been to demand respect...and where absent, take matters into their own hand.

 

You forget that all female channelers are bullyies.  Nynaeve and Eleyne entered into a Bargain with the Seafarers. Because of their positions (as declared AS, but not having passed the test) and the necessity to be seen as acting honorabbly they were not in a position to question the Seafarers insistance that the Bargain required that the AS begin teaching. Also the Seafarers actions should be seen in the light of two facts. AS although bound by the three oaths twist the truth into knots, where none of their statements can be taken as true at first hearing.  Moreover the Seafarers follow a strict and harsh higherarchical order required by the necessities of life in the open sea.  They treat each other, even mother and daughter, under strict rules of behavior. Together these two facts explain the seafarers treatment of landloving AS. And frankly, I think for the most part the AS brought it on themselves, so I have very little sympathy for them. They have been bullied, disrespected but not really injurred so they should quit bitching.

[Theojo1]

Luckers is correct. It was never really specified when they would teach them, just that they would. You'd think the Aes Sedai would've been able to see and use a loophole as obvious as that.

 

I would really love to see Cadsuane deal with the Sea Folk though; the battle of wills there would be fun to see and she's probably the one Aes Sedai who wouldn't allow herself to be bullied.

 

I believe that Aes Sedai would have been more than capable of gaining some wiggle room with the when aspect of the bargain had Elayne not screwed them over. I recall in Winters Heart that that very question came up and Elayne made an "agreement" (even if it was not made clear that an agreement was being made at the time) that the available AS would teach until more could be presented.

Had Elayne not made a "agreement" for the AS in the palace to teach the seafolk I believe the AS would have found a way to postpone it as long as possible.

A lot of the reason they are walked over, in my opinion, is due to the fact that they deal a lot with Nyneave and Elayne. Nyneave is trying very hard to be AS but has not had the years manipulating people like most. If say Cadsuane was there I am sure it would be put to a stop.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Some of them anyway. Verin pretends to be a mice, but is really a Lion.

 

Frankly I don't see why the Aes Sedai didn't simply pull back until they had promises that they would be treated with respect and honour whilst they taught. Freely willing to fulfil the bargain, but no where was degredation a part of that bargain--more than grounds for a seperate political organisation to hold back on their side of the bargain.

 

Frankly though the Sea Folk revolt me.

 

I think part of the bargin was for them to follow the rules of the Sea folk while they were teaching for their year, I may be wrong as it has been a while since i read that, but it does stand out in my mind.  Therefore with that part of the bargin, they did agree to what they get.  I have no like for either group Aes Sedai nor Sea Folk, but I do love it when the sea folk take the Aes Sedai down a notch.

[RAND AL THOR]

The Bargain was insane. The Bowl is a powerful ter'angreal. Giving that up is most certainly more than sufficient for using it once with Sea Folk help. Otherwise, Elayne should just have said that she would never give them the Bowl. They were desperate for it.

 

That Bargain was a weak point in the story. I am almost inclined to think that the Sea Folk woman who made the Bargain with Elayne was ta'veren!

[D24g0n]

Yea, I also didn't like that part of the books.  For all of the stock Nyneave and Elayne put into being able to deal with difficult people(Woman's Circle and Nobles, respectively), they sure got run over.  Even though Sea Folk are supposed to be amazing traders, Nyneave and Elayne had the obvious upper hand, as Rand said.  I just thought the whole scene could have been done better, or explained better.

[bjclinton]

The Bargain was insane. The Bowl is a powerful ter'angreal. Giving that up is most certainly more than sufficient for using it once with Sea Folk help. Otherwise, Elayne should just have said that she would never give them the Bowl. They were desperate for it.

 

That Bargain was a weak point in the story. I am almost inclined to think that the Sea Folk woman who made the Bargain with Elayne was ta'veren!

 

i completely agree with you here....AWFUL bargain....the seafolk needed the weather corrected as much as anyone else- and they wanted the bowl BADLY.

 

/shakes head in frustration over this imbalanced bargain.

 

 

[Valinthros]

I also found this very hard to swallow.  I'm completely at a loss, since the whole encounter and specific details of the bargain were not open to us, the readers.  On top of which, no AS has asked what the specific wording of the bargain was...  Which either states one of two things.  Either it's horrible writing, or we're in for a treat.  I'd like to think there is some plot twist incoming in that area, or hope there is anyhow.

 

So, yes, I didnt like the whole situation either, and have trouble understanding it as a whole.  Regardless of the fact that the seafolk windfinders were needed to make the bowl work, they did want it back so very badly.  As a bargaining chip, that should have been all that was needed.  Even a simpleton should have been able to work a more favorable outcome out of that.  *sigh*  I dont have many things that I dont like about the series, this would be biggest one though.    >:(

[Mysterious]

When I went over the bargain with the Sea Folk, I couldn't help going WTF! ???

 

The bargain seems to be so one sided...

 

Giving everything and taking nothing. Also given the fact that most Aes Sedai are such control freaks this is incredible. But this is partly explained by the fact that it was negotiated by Elayne and Nynaeve who do not have much experience being Aes Sedai, let alone negotiating international treaties.

 

I do believe that when the Hall learns about the treaty struck with the Sea Folk it will become an absolute disaster for Egwene.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Bob T Dwarf]

I knew a young guy a few years ago who needed a new pickup at a time when Ford was offering 2.9% financing on F-150's.

 

He got one and was bragging about how smartly he'd negotiated and what a good deal he got.

 

The truck he bought retailed at that time for $21,950.00.  He had an old Chevy that he'd jacked up so high you needed a stepladder to get into it.  First he 'talked them down' to $19,500 for the new truck and then he'd bullied them into giving him $2,500 for his old one.  That made his net purchase price $17,000.00.

 

Problem was his payments were $450 per month for 5 years.  That totals $27,000.00 for his final cost.  Or, 10 grand more than his supposed $17,000 purchase price.

 

Now, I don't believe even a Mafia bookkeeper could figure out a way to make an average $2,000.00 per year in interest work out to 2.9% financing.

 

As soon as I heard him mention the monthly payment and the term length, I knew something was wrong.  I did some quick napkin math and got the same numbers I've written here.  He wasn't pleased to learn that he was paying something over 12% rather than the 2.9% he'd assumed.

 

He got into that mess because he assumed he was getting the advertised interest rate and didn't do any math to verify.  He focused on what he thought were the important parts of making that deal and totally overlooked the gotcha in the details.

 

Making such deals often happens to those who are young and inexperienced in dealing with those whose success in business depends in how ... ummm... creatively they negotiate their deals.

[RAND AL THOR]

I'm completely at a loss, since the whole encounter and specific details of the bargain were not open to us, the readers.  On top of which, no AS has asked what the specific wording of the bargain was...  Which either states one of two things.  Either it's horrible writing, or we're in for a treat.

 

The Bargain was very badly negotiated by the AS. It will never be open to us (I'm 100% sure). Clearly, RJ needed to bring the Windfinders into the AS for some reason and he most likely could not find any other way. But the Bargain really sucks and I hope to ask Harriet one day about it.

 

And I don't think we are in for a treat. ;D

That would be unlikely, considering all that the Sea Folk have done so far. I liked them so much in Book 4 when Ny/Ely were sailing to Tanchico!

[Lille]

It could even have been Nynaeve or Elayne who mentioned Aes Sedai in the bargain, remember that Egwene wants all women who can channel connected to the Tower in some way. Maybe Nynaeve or Elayne tried to do that and somehow it ended worse than they could imagine. They could even have suggested Aes Sedai teachers and the Seafolk would have been very pleased, since shorebound teachers are the second lowest rank you could have at a seafolk ship.

[Asmo]

Yes, it's quite possible that Nynaeve and Elayne thought appointing Aes Sedai to teach and instruct the Atha'an Miere would grant them some sort of hold on them while binding the Windfinders to the Tower. About the rest, in my view, Nynaeve got mad, threw up her hands and agreed with the Sea Folk conditions of freely visiting the Tower etc to get the thing done quickly. Impatience was always Nynaeve's greatest weakness. I presume that if Elayne had handled this alone, she might have done better, but the two girls were being as much Aes Sedai as possible, and according to Aes Sedai custom Nynaeve, who is much stronger, has more authority between them. The Sea Folk knew as much and Windfinders could tell their strength, so Elayne had to clap her teeth shut and watch Nynaeve ruin everything.

 

Simply put, impatience to get the bargain done with and the Bowl working before Moghedien and a few of your friendly neighbourhood Black Ajah came down on top of them screwed them over.

[RAND AL THOR]

But what about the way the AS was treated when Logain arrived at the Wavemistress meeting in KOD? SURELY Nyn didn't agree to that!

 

Teachers, whether shorebound or seabound should never be treated so. You learn from a teacher. This particular aspect of Sea Folk culture is utterly mad and very very wrong.

[crescendo]

Well, lacking the exact terms of the bargain it's hard to formulate a good idea as to what could be done about it but here's what I'd like those devious and crafty AS to do. So long as the bargain doesn't mention a set amount of time each sister must teach, start replacing them quickly... VERY QUICKLY, i'm talking one every day, each sister stays for 20 days, or if that's too long, do two a day, so that while keeping to the letter of the bargain, the sea folk have a constantly shifting group of AS who can be stubborn, crafty, irksome, and nonforthcoming. Sure left long enough among the Sea Folk AS will be broken down (see Merrille) but with just 10 days? Good luck Sea Folk, then when they are so incensed over the bargain being useless you give them an offer, preferably with a ta'veren in the room, you renegotiate the treaty, problem solved.

[Kevin Fitzgerald]

Note:I am only up to "Crossroads of Twilight".

 

I really hope this get sorted out in the last few books.

This part of the books has been very difficult to read Aes Sedia behaving so out of character.

 

It may be that the Aes Sedai sent by Egwene with Elayne and Nynaeve to Ebou Dar were particularly weak personalities so that they could dominated by them.

 

That would explain why they capitulated to Elayne so easily.

When first arriving in Ebou Dar they still did not really believe her Aes Sedai.

Next second they are following her like she is th Amyrlin Seat.

Egwene doesn't even get this type of response.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve obviously do not know enough about how an Aes Sedai should behave to know what they doing is wrong and bordering on ridiculous for Aes Sedai.

 

Perhaps when stronger Aes Sedai get to Caemlyn there could be changes.

The only problem with this is there only appear appear to be four Aes Sedai (perhaps five) who are anywhere near the image how Aes Sedai were describe in the first few books.

Moiraine, Cadsuane, Siuan, Egwene and perhaps Verin appear to be the only ones with any real inner strength. 

Elayne and Nynaeve show they have the inner strengh but not the knowledge to behave properly. Egwene has had Siuan and the Wise Ones teachings